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Re: [abramelin] Re: Sin

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  • daniel culver
    Thanks Georg.   Great response as usual. That is really interesting you joined hare krishna temple.. I am extremely drawn to hinduism- particularly bhakti and
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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      Thanks Georg.
       
      Great response as usual. That is really interesting you joined hare krishna temple.. I am extremely drawn to hinduism- particularly bhakti and laya yoga. It might be from all the hellfire and brimstone that I forced into my head from numerous readings of the q'uran during my sufi practice, but I am extremely deterred from abrahamic religions thereafter.
       
       I felt like, because of the sin doctrine, I was forcing myself to feel guilty about thoughts,impulses or behaviors in my life because of my desire to be more 'correct' or not 'go to hell'. But then once I took initiation from a shaykh and had a slight emotional breakdown, I realized that all doesn't really matter quite as much as how you work on yourself. After that I abandoned all ideas of organized religion and stopped practicing altogether- eventually coming to magic/occult practice where I found the abramelin to be something I could obtain esoteric knowledge through without the cult-ish aspect of modern esoteric groups. This post topic of sin was essentially to see if any of you, post operation, came to any unexpected conclusions on the idea..
       
      But your mention of the hare krishna temple leads me to a question I had in the back of my mind a little while- would laya (kriya,kundalini etc) yoga be inappropriate to practice before/during/after the abramelin working?

      --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:

      From: Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...>
      Subject: [abramelin] Re: Sin
      To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 1:47 AM

      dear Daniel

      sins are a concept I don't agree with. It's not my
      "political fraction".
      So I am not familiar with the kinds of sin. I couldn't tell
      You this or
      that. I try to do what I want as much as I can.

      But in the karmic sence I follow and try to develop my Self.
      There are things I wouldn't do,
      though they are allowed in the Old Testament. The negative
      approach like it is formulated with terms like passion, has
      no reason. I think, it was a good idea to join the Hare
      Krishna Temple for a while to get an idea of Joy which is
      not related to the so called passion or "Sins". Their sence
      of Joy hits something, that couldn't be in the mind of a guy
      that lived right after the plague. Yet it shows a positive
      view of development.

      If You consult the Jewish Encyclopedia, You might be
      astonished about the neutralism they write about these
      things. So they come nearer to what Abramelin meant.

      It was one of the reasons why Steven and I wanted to get
      away in our translation from that ugly
      word "demon" which is, like "sin" dug from the thesaurus of the
      monotheistic sphere. As we are worlds away from Remaissance,
      we have to have a new philosophical attitude for these
      things. For my opinion the archold, greek/egyptian hermetic
      world contains so much humanism and love for all beings,
      that we can avoid the hypocrit
      monotheist language of prejudice and powerplay.

      If You deal with entities, the behaviour related to spirits,
      especially
      the unredeemed ones, might be of the kind You find in  any
      Monotheistic
      catechism. But why ask only for bad manners? - if You allow
      me to talk
      bourgois.

      The core of Your question is something else, it points to
      the qualities
      that spiritual entities have or might show up. This is very
      interesting.
      And, it is pure psychology, easier, than You could imagine.
      Because, the
      kings and dukes are 12 altogether and relate to the 12 star
      signs.

      The four kings are the cardinal signs. Lucifer, of course is
      Aries, Fire
      Leviathan is Water, Cancer
      Satan is Earth, Capricorn
      Belial is Air, should be Libra

      sorry, I forgot the dukes which are the fixed and the
      flexible signs. I
      made a nice workshop a few years ago and found it out within
      a few hours
      and only a few books consulting. It is a thrilling project,
      if You then
      go through the ordinary spirits. Their mixed qualities
      regarded by the
      elements that are represented by for example: Oriens,
      Paymon, Ariton,
      Amaymon. Or Astaroth and Asmodius or Asmodius and Magoth.

      Consider the three principles of cardinal, fixed and
      movable. It becomes
      a big thing of psycholgy like having an entitiy belonging to
      fixed Fire,
      movable air and movable earth. Like somebody having AC in
      Aries, Sun in
      Gemini and Moon in Virgo.
      Or cardinal water and fixed earth. AC in Cancer, Sun in
      Taurus. If it is
      a woman, look for AC in Cancer and Luna in Taurus.

      If You have a good astrological program, with an archive,
      You ma search
      people of these qualities.

      Sorry I can't make a big thing out of it now. If You are very
      interested, I could look it up. For me it made much sence.

      Good luck
      Georg



    • Athena
      I m not Georg, but I believe it would be very appropriate and very helpful during the working :). I did asana, pranayama and a few postures during my working
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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        I'm not Georg, but I believe it would be very appropriate and very helpful during the working :).  I did asana, pranayama and a few postures during my working and found them to help immensely. 

        Athena
        --
        www.enochian.org

        On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:16 AM, daniel culver <danielson_07@...> wrote:


        Thanks Georg.
         
        Great response as usual. That is really interesting you joined hare krishna temple.. I am extremely drawn to hinduism- particularly bhakti and laya yoga. It might be from all the hellfire and brimstone that I forced into my head from numerous readings of the q'uran during my sufi practice, but I am extremely deterred from abrahamic religions thereafter.
         
         I felt like, because of the sin doctrine, I was forcing myself to feel guilty about thoughts,impulses or behaviors in my life because of my desire to be more 'correct' or not 'go to hell'. But then once I took initiation from a shaykh and had a slight emotional breakdown, I realized that all doesn't really matter quite as much as how you work on yourself. After that I abandoned all ideas of organized religion and stopped practicing altogether- eventually coming to magic/occult practice where I found the abramelin to be something I could obtain esoteric knowledge through without the cult-ish aspect of modern esoteric groups. This post topic of sin was essentially to see if any of you, post operation, came to any unexpected conclusions on the idea..
         
        But your mention of the hare krishna temple leads me to a question I had in the back of my mind a little while- would laya (kriya,kundalini etc) yoga be inappropriate to practice before/during/after the abramelin working?

      • daniel
        Thanks Athena. Good to hear that worked out for you. I was just concerned with the result of combining the experiences of kundalini(laya yoga) and abramelin
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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          Thanks Athena.
          Good to hear that worked out for you. I was just concerned with the result of combining the experiences of kundalini(laya yoga) and abramelin simultaneously.. It might actually prove to be a help and not a hindrance.



          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm not Georg, but I believe it would be very appropriate and very helpful
          > during the working :). I did asana, pranayama and a few postures during my
          > working and found them to help immensely.
          >
          > Athena
        • Athena
          Well the reason I felt it helped is that there was no system, or dogma, or Gods, or anything involved accept just breathing and being... so nothing to get in
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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            Well the reason I felt it helped is that there was no system, or dogma, or Gods, or anything involved accept just breathing and being... so nothing to get in the way :).

            Athena
            --
            www.enochian.org

            On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:59 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:


            Thanks Athena.
            Good to hear that worked out for you. I was just concerned with the result of combining the experiences of kundalini(laya yoga) and abramelin simultaneously.. It might actually prove to be a help and not a hindrance.




          • Khem Caigan
            In his commentary on Genesis 6.2, Philo of Alexandria says that the beings described as angels by Moses (aggeloi) are referred to as daemons (daimonia) by the
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 3, 2009
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              In his commentary on Genesis 6.2, Philo of
              Alexandria says that the beings described as
              angels by Moses (aggeloi) are referred to as
              daemons (daimonia) by the Greek philosophers :

              " Those beings, whom other philosophers call
              demons, Moses usually calls angels; and they
              are souls hovering in the air.

              And let no one suppose, that what is here stated
              is a fable, for it is necessarily true that the
              universe must be filled with living things in all
              its parts, since every one of its primary and
              elementary portions contains its appropriate animals
              and such as are consistent with its nature; --the
              earth containing terrestrial animals, the sea and
              the rivers containing aquatic animals, and the
              fire such as are born in the fire (but it is said,
              that such as these last are found chiefly in
              Macedonia), and the heaven containing the stars:
              for these also are entire souls pervading the
              universe, being unadulterated and divine, inasmuch
              as they move in a circle, which is the kind of motion
              most akin to the mind, for every one of them is the
              parent mind.

              It is therefore necessary that the air also should
              be full of living beings.

              And these beings are invisible to us, inasmuch as
              the air itself is not visible to mortal sight.

              But it does not follow, because our sight is
              incapable of perceiving the forms of souls, that
              for that reason there are no souls in the air;
              but it follows of necessity that they must be
              comprehended by the mind, in order that like may
              be contemplated by like. "

              - Philo of Alexandria , *On the Giants* II: 6-9.

              See also :

              Arcana Mundi
              by Georg Luck,
              page 207.
              ( Preview @GoogleBooks )
              http://tinyurl.com/oufowf

              Angels are demons are angels...

              Cors in Manu Domine,


              ~ Khem Caigan
              <Khem@...>

              " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
              zodiacal sign (sar mazzal) of a person
              when it is sent below has the image of
              the person who is under it....

              And this is the meaning of 'And God
              created man in His image, in the image
              of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

              Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
              and 'in the image'?

              One image refers to the image of man and
              the other to the image of the Angel of
              the zodiacal sign that is in the image
              of the man. "

              ~ from:
              *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
              by R. Eleazar of Worms
            • Voltaire07
              Sorry Daniel, I have not been a Devotee, that means living in the temple. I meant visiting, practicing the Bhakti and learning about the Indian philosphy.
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
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                Sorry Daniel,

                I have not been a Devotee, that means living in the temple. I meant
                visiting, practicing the Bhakti and learning about the Indian philosphy.
                Where I really have been initiated, is in a Thai temple. But there was
                no time for meditation, because it was a real indegene temple and the
                brothers watched homeworks of elderless children, cared lost
                monkey-babies and thrown over the monastery wall dogs and cats. And they
                grew tea and herbs and taught me Thai astrology and I had a "wonderful"
                experience of destroying my ego: The Alchemist made an essence of herbs
                which is the cure for almost everything. Based on urin of cows. Maybe it
                is another aspect of getting rid of passions. . .

                The interesting question with the Hare Krishna was, like as Buddha: Do I
                follow a leader?
                I couldn't get out of that feeling at least as long as Prabhupada lived.
                But it was the devotees. Buddha was something else, I never felt guilty,
                after having bowed my knee in the temple.
                Abramelin is more "one of us" and he says, never follow leaders, more or
                less. The book points out so much, that You have to have Your own
                experience, that means it leaves You free.

                But to answer Your question. No discipline is inappropriate, it is only
                the question I mentioned above. Who stands behind the discipline, does
                anybody exploite minds, souls - purces? If Your teacher is a Guru und
                doesn't give Your coins You have to pay him to poor people of the town,
                I would kick him in the ass.

                best wishes
                Georg
              • daniel
                No discipline is inappropriate, it is only ... Well said Georg. I could understand how you wouldn t feel guilty in a buddhist temple- its not like they re
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 11, 2009
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                  No discipline is inappropriate, it is only
                  > the question I mentioned above. Who stands behind the discipline, does
                  > anybody exploite minds, souls - purces? If Your teacher is a Guru und
                  > doesn't give Your coins You have to pay him to poor people of the town,
                  > I would kick him in the ass.
                  >
                  > best wishes
                  > Georg
                  >


                  Well said Georg. I could understand how you wouldn't feel 'guilty' in a buddhist temple- its not like they're out to convert you! Do you think prabhupada is in it for the money and followers?

                  I'm not sure I've asked- Have you completed the 18 month operation?
                • Voltaire07
                  hi, I consider Prabhupada and the ISKCON as a serious organization. At the end I got enough information to know, that Prabhupada was an idealist and not out
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 23, 2009
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                    hi,

                    I consider Prabhupada and the ISKCON as a serious
                    organization. At the
                    end I got enough information to know, that Prabhupada was an
                    idealist
                    and not out for money at all. And above all knowing, You
                    feel his
                    presence and purity as somebody who devoted his life for a
                    higher task,
                    without any false intention like influencing peoples
                    personality or so.

                    The question about my experience arose earlier, but I can
                    answer it again.
                    It was simply after several years of experiencing practise
                    in different
                    disciplines. Yoga was the most intensive, but really intense
                    and
                    different tries like witchcraft, Wicca, KaHuna, Nichiren
                    Shoshu (the Nam
                    Myoho Renge Kyo). And right in the middle that meeting of
                    an entity
                    without name, that came again and quite a few tiomes over
                    the years and
                    meanwhile when Iam in the right mood, comes if asked.

                    So when I got to know the Abramelin stuff, the Mathers
                    retranslation
                    into german, I was informed this is not the thing. I wasn't
                    warned, this
                    was dangerous, no it just has not been the thing. It was
                    reduced to
                    "exchangeable format". So I knew it from 1976 to 1980 and
                    found the
                    Hammer printed version, which wowed me out. Sorry, Iam not
                    so familiar
                    with english emotional expression. Then I knew, that what I had
                    experienced since almost ten years, was the HGA. He never
                    told me, but
                    now I knew it.

                    This is why I say, it depends on Your own traditions.
                    Fortunately I was
                    far away enough from my old christian thing, so I could at
                    least say, it
                    was an entity without name. If I would've been more in my
                    families
                    influence and even subconsciously I would have had a proper
                    name in
                    mind, not knowing this mind is only ratio.

                    But on the second hand, after all these years, I just said
                    hello to that
                    guy and knew, the ritual is not my thing again. Maybe it was
                    it in
                    another lifetime.

                    so long
                    Georg
                  • obarrbo
                    I agree about Prabhupada. I like him and I think he was genuine in what he wanted to do, which was mainly to bring his Vishnu/Krishna related practice to the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 23, 2009
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                      I agree about Prabhupada. I like him and I think he was genuine in what he wanted to do, which was mainly to bring his Vishnu/Krishna related practice to the west and help out people in America and the Western world in general. I did have mixed feelings since some of the Krishna's I've met, and some of the things I've read, has a "the only way is Krishna" vibe, but I still like them. Even though I'm not into any religion or path being the only way to enlightenment or peace, I respect these people who are able to live so dedicated in their way of life.

                      I'm mainly into Hinduism and even alot of Mainstream Hindus I've met like Prabhupada's translation of the Bhagavad Gita and own copies.

                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > hi,
                      >
                      > I consider Prabhupada and the ISKCON as a serious
                      > organization. At the
                      > end I got enough information to know, that Prabhupada was an
                      > idealist
                      > and not out for money at all. And above all knowing, You
                      > feel his
                      > presence and purity as somebody who devoted his life for a
                      > higher task,
                      > without any false intention like influencing peoples
                      > personality or so.
                      >
                      > The question about my experience arose earlier, but I can
                      > answer it again.
                      > It was simply after several years of experiencing practise
                      > in different
                      > disciplines. Yoga was the most intensive, but really intense
                      > and
                      > different tries like witchcraft, Wicca, KaHuna, Nichiren
                      > Shoshu (the Nam
                      > Myoho Renge Kyo). And right in the middle that meeting of
                      > an entity
                      > without name, that came again and quite a few tiomes over
                      > the years and
                      > meanwhile when Iam in the right mood, comes if asked.
                      >
                      > So when I got to know the Abramelin stuff, the Mathers
                      > retranslation
                      > into german, I was informed this is not the thing. I wasn't
                      > warned, this
                      > was dangerous, no it just has not been the thing. It was
                      > reduced to
                      > "exchangeable format". So I knew it from 1976 to 1980 and
                      > found the
                      > Hammer printed version, which wowed me out. Sorry, Iam not
                      > so familiar
                      > with english emotional expression. Then I knew, that what I had
                      > experienced since almost ten years, was the HGA. He never
                      > told me, but
                      > now I knew it.
                      >
                      > This is why I say, it depends on Your own traditions.
                      > Fortunately I was
                      > far away enough from my old christian thing, so I could at
                      > least say, it
                      > was an entity without name. If I would've been more in my
                      > families
                      > influence and even subconsciously I would have had a proper
                      > name in
                      > mind, not knowing this mind is only ratio.
                      >
                      > But on the second hand, after all these years, I just said
                      > hello to that
                      > guy and knew, the ritual is not my thing again. Maybe it was
                      > it in
                      > another lifetime.
                      >
                      > so long
                      > Georg
                      >
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