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Sin

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  • daniel
    Hey everyone- This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but any input is welcome as usual.. Should one think that,for example,the
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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      Hey everyone-

      This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but any input is welcome as usual..

      Should one think that,for example,the way ignatius(and orthodoxy) view mortal and venial sin is the same that our HGA does? Or regardless of whether they coincide, would seeing it the way as described in the spiritual exercises make one all the more ready?

      I'm trying to retouch on the religion of my childhood (christianity) in order to try to stay on the path of righteousness and not get distracted from my goal.
    • Athena
      If you are of a particular religion, I would say stick with the morals and ideas of sin within that religion...or the branch of that religion you are
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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        If you are of a particular religion, I would say stick with the morals
        and ideas of sin within that religion...or the branch of that religion
        you are following. However I did find that it has a LOT to do with
        what you yourself feel guilty about (even if it's underlying or
        repressed) since this can hold us back a lot, make us feel unworthy to
        be with God and so forth.

        Personally I'm Pagan and didn't have a childhood religion, so I stuck
        with Pagan. I defined my own ideas of sin which seemed to work quite
        well since the Abramelin working helped bring about a lot of
        unresolved stuff for me and allow me to work though it :).

        Hopefully some will offer their insights as well though since I am far
        from orthodox when it comes to religious or spiritual thinking.

        Athena
        --
        www.enochian.org

        On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:36 PM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hey everyone-
        >
        > This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but
        > any input is welcome as usual..
        >
        > Should one think that,for example,the way ignatius(and orthodoxy) view
        > mortal and venial sin is the same that our HGA does? Or regardless of
        > whether they coincide, would seeing it the way as described in the spiritual
        > exercises make one all the more ready?
        >
        > I'm trying to retouch on the religion of my childhood (christianity) in
        > order to try to stay on the path of righteousness and not get distracted
        > from my goal.
        >
        >



        --
        Odo cicle qaa
        --
        www.enochian.org
      • daniel
        Thanks athena- I was quite interested in seeing what you had to say, actually. While practicing sufism, during zikr I would do things like spontaneously cry.
        Message 3 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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          Thanks athena-

          I was quite interested in seeing what you had to say, actually. While practicing sufism, during zikr I would do things like spontaneously cry. Or I would scream to the top of my lungs for God to forgive me for reasons I could not quite pinpoint. This is one of the main reasons I want to do the operation- to understand myself. I realize now that all religions are one- and I should just go back to what my subconscious knows to make things more effective for me spiritually. Georg made some very good points to me several times on that topic.

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
          >
          > If you are of a particular religion, I would say stick with the morals
          > and ideas of sin within that religion...or the branch of that religion
          > you are following. However I did find that it has a LOT to do with
          > what you yourself feel guilty about (even if it's underlying or
          > repressed) since this can hold us back a lot, make us feel unworthy to
          > be with God and so forth.
          >
          > Personally I'm Pagan and didn't have a childhood religion, so I stuck
          > with Pagan. I defined my own ideas of sin which seemed to work quite
          > well since the Abramelin working helped bring about a lot of
          > unresolved stuff for me and allow me to work though it :).
          >
          > Hopefully some will offer their insights as well though since I am far
          > from orthodox when it comes to religious or spiritual thinking.
          >
          > Athena
          > --
          > www.enochian.org
          >
          > On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:36 PM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Hey everyone-
          > >
          > > This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but
          > > any input is welcome as usual..
          > >
          > > Should one think that,for example,the way ignatius(and orthodoxy) view
          > > mortal and venial sin is the same that our HGA does? Or regardless of
          > > whether they coincide, would seeing it the way as described in the spiritual
          > > exercises make one all the more ready?
          > >
          > > I'm trying to retouch on the religion of my childhood (christianity) in
          > > order to try to stay on the path of righteousness and not get distracted
          > > from my goal.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Odo cicle qaa
          > --
          > www.enochian.org
          >
        • Georg Dehn
          dear Daniel, maybe this helps You: Abramelin, when leaving to Araki gave AvW the advisw to repeat the seven psalms . I found out that under all so many psalms
          Message 4 of 19 , May 20, 2009
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            dear Daniel,

            maybe this helps You:
            Abramelin, when leaving to Araki gave AvW the advisw to repeat "the seven psalms". I found out that under all so many psalms there are seven special ones, forgotten today, not ever mentioned (Abu Ghreib, Wall Street and Kennebunkport don't need 'em today) in church (at least) called the psalms of repentance (page 16. PS No.: 6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, 143)

            I always wanted to work on that subject, havent had the time yet. They must corelate to the seven sins.
            But on my own opinion, the seven which are the deadly sins, are those WHY people die.

            We could live for hundereds of years, maybe unlimitid, but these are calling us back to the soil. Therefore we say deadly sins. This word is not mentioned as a justifying or (death-)penalty.

            so, this in short
            Love
            Georg

            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey everyone-
            >
            > This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but any input is welcome as usual..
            >
            > Should one think that,for example,the way ignatius(and orthodoxy) view mortal and venial sin is the same that our HGA does? Or regardless of whether they coincide, would seeing it the way as described in the spiritual exercises make one all the more ready?
            >
            > I'm trying to retouch on the religion of my childhood (christianity) in order to try to stay on the path of righteousness and not get distracted from my goal.
            >
          • oipteaapdoce@gmail.com
            When I was doing the abramelin working I was wondering which psalms since the numbers listed at least in the french didn t match up with the words listed.
            Message 5 of 19 , May 22, 2009
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              When I was doing the abramelin working I was wondering which psalms since the numbers listed at least in the french didn't match up with the words listed. Fortunately I eventually got it. Thank you for posting the correct numbers ;).

              Athena
              www.enochian.org

              Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
              Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.


              From: "Georg Dehn"
              Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 07:23:52 -0000
              To: <abramelin@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [abramelin] Re: Sin

              dear Daniel,

              maybe this helps You:
              Abramelin, when leaving to Araki gave AvW the advisw to repeat "the seven psalms". I found out that under all so many psalms there are seven special ones, forgotten today, not ever mentioned (Abu Ghreib, Wall Street and Kennebunkport don't need 'em today) in church (at least) called the psalms of repentance (page 16. PS No.: 6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, 143)

              I always wanted to work on that subject, havent had the time yet. They must corelate to the seven sins.
              But on my own opinion, the seven which are the deadly sins, are those WHY people die.

              We could live for hundereds of years, maybe unlimitid, but these are calling us back to the soil. Therefore we say deadly sins. This word is not mentioned as a justifying or (death-)penalty.

              so, this in short
              Love
              Georg

              --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey everyone-
              >
              > This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but any input is welcome as usual..
              >
              > Should one think that,for example,the way ignatius(and orthodoxy) view mortal and venial sin is the same that our HGA does? Or regardless of whether they coincide, would seeing it the way as described in the spiritual exercises make one all the more ready?
              >
              > I'm trying to retouch on the religion of my childhood (christianity) in order to try to stay on the path of righteousness and not get distracted from my goal.
              >

            • Khem Caigan
              And while we re on the subject of Prayer and the Psalms, let me recommend the *Seif Edition of the Transliterated Tehillim*, available from ArtScroll :
              Message 6 of 19 , May 23, 2009
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                And while we're on the subject of Prayer
                and the Psalms, let me recommend the
                *Seif Edition of the Transliterated Tehillim*,
                available from ArtScroll :

                http://tinyurl.com/38b6sq

                This transliterated edition of the *Book of Psalms*
                is a great way to learn how to recite the Psalms in
                Hebrew.

                Cors in Manu Domine,


                ~ Khem Caigan
                <Khem@...>

                " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                zodiacal sign (sar mazzal) of a person
                when it is sent below has the image of
                the person who is under it....

                And this is the meaning of 'And God
                created man in His image, in the image
                of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

                Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                and 'in the image'?

                One image refers to the image of man and
                the other to the image of the Angel of
                the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                of the man. "

                ~ from:
                *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                by Rabbi Eleazar of Worms
              • daniel culver
                Thanks Georg-   That helps a lot. Is a total mortification of passions needed to accomplish such tasks as the abramelin operation because of the unredeemed
                Message 7 of 19 , May 24, 2009
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                  Thanks Georg-
                   
                  That helps a lot. Is a total mortification of passions needed to accomplish such tasks as the abramelin operation because of the unredeemed spirits power to tempt us into sinning?
                   
                  If so, do the spirits have their own 'specialty' sins?
                  --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Georg Dehn <voltaire07@...> wrote:

                  From: Georg Dehn <voltaire07@...>
                  Subject: [abramelin] Re: Sin
                  To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 12:23 AM

                  dear Daniel,

                  maybe this helps You:
                  Abramelin, when leaving to Araki gave AvW the advisw to repeat "the seven psalms". I found out that under all so many psalms there are seven special ones, forgotten today, not ever mentioned (Abu Ghreib, Wall Street and Kennebunkport don't need 'em today) in church (at least) called the psalms of repentance (page 16. PS No.: 6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, 143)

                  I always wanted to work on that subject, havent had the time yet. They must corelate to the seven sins.
                  But on my own opinion, the seven which are the deadly sins, are those WHY people die.

                  We could live for hundereds of years, maybe unlimitid, but these are calling us back to the soil. Therefore we say deadly sins. This word is not mentioned as a justifying or (death-)penalty.

                  so, this in short
                  Love
                  Georg

                  --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey everyone-
                  >
                  > This is mostly directed towards those who have completed the operation, but any input is welcome as usual..
                  >
                  > Should one think that,for example,the way ignatius(and orthodoxy) view mortal and venial sin is the same that our HGA does? Or regardless of whether they coincide, would seeing it the way as described in the spiritual exercises make one all the more ready?
                  >
                  > I'm trying to retouch on the religion of my childhood (christianity) in order to try to stay on the path of righteousness and not get distracted from my goal.
                  >


                • daniel
                  Thanks Khem Interesting suggestion. Are there hebrew mantras - or do the psalms play that part?
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 25, 2009
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                    Thanks Khem

                    Interesting suggestion.

                    Are there hebrew 'mantras'- or do the psalms play that part?

                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Khem Caigan <Khem@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > And while we're on the subject of Prayer
                    > and the Psalms, let me recommend the
                    > *Seif Edition of the Transliterated Tehillim*,
                    > available from ArtScroll :
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/38b6sq
                    >
                    > This transliterated edition of the *Book of Psalms*
                    > is a great way to learn how to recite the Psalms in
                    > Hebrew.
                    >
                    > Cors in Manu Domine,
                    >
                    >
                    > ~ Khem Caigan
                    > <Khem@...>
                    >
                    > " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                    > zodiacal sign (sar mazzal) of a person
                    > when it is sent below has the image of
                    > the person who is under it....
                    >
                    > And this is the meaning of 'And God
                    > created man in His image, in the image
                    > of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).
                    >
                    > Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                    > and 'in the image'?
                    >
                    > One image refers to the image of man and
                    > the other to the image of the Angel of
                    > the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                    > of the man. "
                    >
                    > ~ from:
                    > *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                    > by Rabbi Eleazar of Worms
                    >
                  • Khem Caigan
                    ... R. Kaplan discusses this at some length in his books - below are a few excerpts : Page 13 : The path of the emotions also plays an important role in the
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 26, 2009
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                      Daniel Culver doth schreibble :
                      >
                      > Are there Hebrew 'mantras'- or do the psalms play that part?

                      R. Kaplan discusses this at some length in his
                      books - below are a few excerpts :

                      Page 13 :

                      " The path of the emotions also plays an important
                      role in the systems of the Kabbalists. One place
                      where it is particularly important is in /Kavanah/
                      -meditation, the system that makes use of the formal
                      daily prayers as a sort of mantra, especially in
                      the Hasidic schools. Here one is taught to place
                      all of their feelings and emotions into the words
                      of their worship, thus attaining a divestment of
                      the physical (/hitpashtut hagashmiut/). This path
                      is also found in meditations involving music, which
                      play an important role in the meditations of the
                      ancient prophets of the Bible. "

                      Page 41 :

                      " The /Greater Hekhalot/ is one of the most ancient
                      of all mystical texts, dating back to the First
                      Century. It is also one of the few ancient tracts
                      that explicitly describe the methods through which
                      one enters the mystical state. The key appears to
                      be a type of mantra meditation where a series of
                      Divine Names is repeated 112 times. Through the
                      repetition of this formula, one enters the threshold
                      of the mystical Chambers, and one must proceed from
                      one Chamber to the next. "

                      Page 155 :

                      " The line between meditation and magic is often
                      a tenuous one, and in many areas of Kabbalah the
                      distinction is difficult to discern. How, for
                      example, do we describe a process where a magical
                      incantation is repeated over and over, and for all
                      practical purposes, is used as a mantra? Do we
                      ascribe the effect to the supernatural powers of
                      the Name or incantation, or to the meditative state
                      that it induces? This question has never been fully
                      resolved in the Kabbalah, and hence, the magical
                      and mystical schools often appear to overlap....
                      Still, the traditions of the Magical or Practical
                      Kabbalah were very ancient, and although often
                      perverted, still contained methods through which
                      one could attain high meditative states.

                      Such texts as /Charba DeMoshe/(The Sword of Moses),
                      /Sefer HaCasdim/(Book of the Chaldees), /Sefer HaRazim/
                      (Book of Secrets),and /Sefer HaMalbush/(Book of the
                      Garment), had been around for many centuries, possibly
                      even from the Talmudic period....One of the most
                      mysterious Kabbalists of the Sixteenth Century was
                      Rabbi Joseph Tzayach (1505-1573), who was also one
                      of the leading rabbinical figures of that period....

                      Tzayach discusses the relationship between magic
                      squares and the planets, and his system is very similar
                      to that of ancient astrology and alchemy....These
                      magic squares are apparently used for a very special
                      meditation, where each horizontal row is a "house,"
                      while each number in this row is a "room." Thus, in
                      the magic square of the tenth order, which represents
                      Keter-Crown, the first "room" of the first "house"
                      is 1, the second room is 2, the third is 98, and the
                      fourth is 97....As one mentally travels from room
                      to room and from house to house, going through each
                      square of Keter-Crown, one must apparently attempt to
                      depict these lights. These exercises thus allow
                      us to elevate ourselves through the Sefirot in a
                      very graphic manner. "

                      ~ from :

                      *Meditation and Kabbalah*
                      by Aryeh Kaplan, 1985.
                      Preview @GoogleBooks
                      http://tinyurl.com/phoq8w

                      Page 100 :

                      " First the letters are "engraved" out of nothingness.
                      Then they are "carved" out and separated. Then they
                      are "permuted," so that a given combination appears
                      in different sequences. They then are "weighed" and
                      manipulated according to their numerical values.
                      Finally, they can be "transformed" through the
                      various standard ciphers....Each letter represents
                      a different type of information. Through the various
                      manipulations of letters, God created all things....

                      The initiates must first depict the letters,
                      "engraving" them in their minds. Then they must
                      "carve" them out, making them fill their entire
                      consciousness. After this, they can permute them in
                      various ways. They can also manipulate them through
                      their numerical values and the standard ciphers....
                      In effect, writing or reciting these letter
                      combinations was very much like repeating a mantra. "

                      Page 190 :

                      " Here the letters of the alphabet are called "stones."

                      The Kabbalists say that they are "stones quarried from
                      the great Name of God."

                      The text here is discussing the number of permutations
                      possible with a given number of letters. If one has 2
                      letters, AB, one can permute them 2 ways: AB and BA.
                      These are the "2 stones" that "build 2 houses."
                      If one has three letters, one can make 6 permutations:
                      ABC, ACB, BAC, BCA, CAB, CBA....In a similar manner, 4
                      letters can be permuted in 24 ways, and 5 in 120....We
                      therefore see, that for a given number of letters, the
                      number of permutations is given by 1x2x3...x/N/.

                      This is known as the /N/ factorial, and is usually
                      written /n/!....In general, letter permutations played
                      an important role in the practices of the meditative
                      Kabbalists. These permutations were often chanted very
                      much like a mantra in order to bring about a desired
                      state of consciousness. A number of such texts contain
                      extensive tables of such permutations. "

                      ~ from :

                      *Sefer Yetzirah*
                      by Aryeh Kaplan
                      2nd Edition/revised,
                      1997.
                      Preview @GoogleBooks
                      http://tinyurl.com/qah267

                      See also my previous posts on chiasmus and structured
                      texts :

                      *Question about 2 angel names*
                      Message #310
                      http://tinyurl.com/azogjl

                      *Tselem: The Representation of the Astral Body*
                      Message #624
                      http://tinyurl.com/pubsnf

                      And see :

                      *The World as Text: Cosmologies of Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i*
                      by Juan R.I. Cole
                      http://tinyurl.com/58tfwn

                      As for your original query regarding sin - you
                      might want to look into the writings of Saint Paul,
                      who held that the term /sin/ did not refer to any
                      specific action on the part of humans, but instead
                      described the human state of being /per se/.

                      That is to say, humans do not sin - rather, they are
                      in a /state/ of sin : conflicted, estranged, wavering
                      between extremes, living in a state of incomplete
                      knowledge and flawed judgment which leads to wrong
                      action. For Paul, sin is a state of being, sin is
                      /ignorance/ - and wrong actions are a consequence
                      of this state.

                      Cors in Manu Domine,


                      ~ Khem Caigan
                      <Khem@...>

                      " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                      zodiacal sign (sar mazzal) of a person
                      when it is sent below has the image of
                      the person who is under it....

                      And this is the meaning of 'And God
                      created man in His image, in the image
                      of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

                      Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                      and 'in the image'?

                      One image refers to the image of man and
                      the other to the image of the Angel of
                      the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                      of the man. "

                      ~ from:
                      *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                      by R. Eleazar of Worms
                    • Voltaire07
                      dear Daniel sins are a concept I don t agree with. It s not my political fraction . So I am not familiar with the kinds of sin. I couldn t tell You this or
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                        dear Daniel

                        sins are a concept I don't agree with. It's not my
                        "political fraction".
                        So I am not familiar with the kinds of sin. I couldn't tell
                        You this or
                        that. I try to do what I want as much as I can.

                        But in the karmic sence I follow and try to develop my Self.
                        There are things I wouldn't do,
                        though they are allowed in the Old Testament. The negative
                        approach like it is formulated with terms like passion, has
                        no reason. I think, it was a good idea to join the Hare
                        Krishna Temple for a while to get an idea of Joy which is
                        not related to the so called passion or "Sins". Their sence
                        of Joy hits something, that couldn't be in the mind of a guy
                        that lived right after the plague. Yet it shows a positive
                        view of development.

                        If You consult the Jewish Encyclopedia, You might be
                        astonished about the neutralism they write about these
                        things. So they come nearer to what Abramelin meant.

                        It was one of the reasons why Steven and I wanted to get
                        away in our translation from that ugly
                        word "demon" which is, like "sin" dug from the thesaurus of the
                        monotheistic sphere. As we are worlds away from Remaissance,
                        we have to have a new philosophical attitude for these
                        things. For my opinion the archold, greek/egyptian hermetic
                        world contains so much humanism and love for all beings,
                        that we can avoid the hypocrit
                        monotheist language of prejudice and powerplay.

                        If You deal with entities, the behaviour related to spirits,
                        especially
                        the unredeemed ones, might be of the kind You find in any
                        Monotheistic
                        catechism. But why ask only for bad manners? - if You allow
                        me to talk
                        bourgois.

                        The core of Your question is something else, it points to
                        the qualities
                        that spiritual entities have or might show up. This is very
                        interesting.
                        And, it is pure psychology, easier, than You could imagine.
                        Because, the
                        kings and dukes are 12 altogether and relate to the 12 star
                        signs.

                        The four kings are the cardinal signs. Lucifer, of course is
                        Aries, Fire
                        Leviathan is Water, Cancer
                        Satan is Earth, Capricorn
                        Belial is Air, should be Libra

                        sorry, I forgot the dukes which are the fixed and the
                        flexible signs. I
                        made a nice workshop a few years ago and found it out within
                        a few hours
                        and only a few books consulting. It is a thrilling project,
                        if You then
                        go through the ordinary spirits. Their mixed qualities
                        regarded by the
                        elements that are represented by for example: Oriens,
                        Paymon, Ariton,
                        Amaymon. Or Astaroth and Asmodius or Asmodius and Magoth.

                        Consider the three principles of cardinal, fixed and
                        movable. It becomes
                        a big thing of psycholgy like having an entitiy belonging to
                        fixed Fire,
                        movable air and movable earth. Like somebody having AC in
                        Aries, Sun in
                        Gemini and Moon in Virgo.
                        Or cardinal water and fixed earth. AC in Cancer, Sun in
                        Taurus. If it is
                        a woman, look for AC in Cancer and Luna in Taurus.

                        If You have a good astrological program, with an archive,
                        You ma search
                        people of these qualities.

                        Sorry I can't make a big thing out of it now. If You are very
                        interested, I could look it up. For me it made much sence.

                        Good luck
                        Georg
                      • daniel culver
                        Thanks Georg.   Great response as usual. That is really interesting you joined hare krishna temple.. I am extremely drawn to hinduism- particularly bhakti and
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                          Thanks Georg.
                           
                          Great response as usual. That is really interesting you joined hare krishna temple.. I am extremely drawn to hinduism- particularly bhakti and laya yoga. It might be from all the hellfire and brimstone that I forced into my head from numerous readings of the q'uran during my sufi practice, but I am extremely deterred from abrahamic religions thereafter.
                           
                           I felt like, because of the sin doctrine, I was forcing myself to feel guilty about thoughts,impulses or behaviors in my life because of my desire to be more 'correct' or not 'go to hell'. But then once I took initiation from a shaykh and had a slight emotional breakdown, I realized that all doesn't really matter quite as much as how you work on yourself. After that I abandoned all ideas of organized religion and stopped practicing altogether- eventually coming to magic/occult practice where I found the abramelin to be something I could obtain esoteric knowledge through without the cult-ish aspect of modern esoteric groups. This post topic of sin was essentially to see if any of you, post operation, came to any unexpected conclusions on the idea..
                           
                          But your mention of the hare krishna temple leads me to a question I had in the back of my mind a little while- would laya (kriya,kundalini etc) yoga be inappropriate to practice before/during/after the abramelin working?

                          --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:

                          From: Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...>
                          Subject: [abramelin] Re: Sin
                          To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 1:47 AM

                          dear Daniel

                          sins are a concept I don't agree with. It's not my
                          "political fraction".
                          So I am not familiar with the kinds of sin. I couldn't tell
                          You this or
                          that. I try to do what I want as much as I can.

                          But in the karmic sence I follow and try to develop my Self.
                          There are things I wouldn't do,
                          though they are allowed in the Old Testament. The negative
                          approach like it is formulated with terms like passion, has
                          no reason. I think, it was a good idea to join the Hare
                          Krishna Temple for a while to get an idea of Joy which is
                          not related to the so called passion or "Sins". Their sence
                          of Joy hits something, that couldn't be in the mind of a guy
                          that lived right after the plague. Yet it shows a positive
                          view of development.

                          If You consult the Jewish Encyclopedia, You might be
                          astonished about the neutralism they write about these
                          things. So they come nearer to what Abramelin meant.

                          It was one of the reasons why Steven and I wanted to get
                          away in our translation from that ugly
                          word "demon" which is, like "sin" dug from the thesaurus of the
                          monotheistic sphere. As we are worlds away from Remaissance,
                          we have to have a new philosophical attitude for these
                          things. For my opinion the archold, greek/egyptian hermetic
                          world contains so much humanism and love for all beings,
                          that we can avoid the hypocrit
                          monotheist language of prejudice and powerplay.

                          If You deal with entities, the behaviour related to spirits,
                          especially
                          the unredeemed ones, might be of the kind You find in  any
                          Monotheistic
                          catechism. But why ask only for bad manners? - if You allow
                          me to talk
                          bourgois.

                          The core of Your question is something else, it points to
                          the qualities
                          that spiritual entities have or might show up. This is very
                          interesting.
                          And, it is pure psychology, easier, than You could imagine.
                          Because, the
                          kings and dukes are 12 altogether and relate to the 12 star
                          signs.

                          The four kings are the cardinal signs. Lucifer, of course is
                          Aries, Fire
                          Leviathan is Water, Cancer
                          Satan is Earth, Capricorn
                          Belial is Air, should be Libra

                          sorry, I forgot the dukes which are the fixed and the
                          flexible signs. I
                          made a nice workshop a few years ago and found it out within
                          a few hours
                          and only a few books consulting. It is a thrilling project,
                          if You then
                          go through the ordinary spirits. Their mixed qualities
                          regarded by the
                          elements that are represented by for example: Oriens,
                          Paymon, Ariton,
                          Amaymon. Or Astaroth and Asmodius or Asmodius and Magoth.

                          Consider the three principles of cardinal, fixed and
                          movable. It becomes
                          a big thing of psycholgy like having an entitiy belonging to
                          fixed Fire,
                          movable air and movable earth. Like somebody having AC in
                          Aries, Sun in
                          Gemini and Moon in Virgo.
                          Or cardinal water and fixed earth. AC in Cancer, Sun in
                          Taurus. If it is
                          a woman, look for AC in Cancer and Luna in Taurus.

                          If You have a good astrological program, with an archive,
                          You ma search
                          people of these qualities.

                          Sorry I can't make a big thing out of it now. If You are very
                          interested, I could look it up. For me it made much sence.

                          Good luck
                          Georg



                        • Athena
                          I m not Georg, but I believe it would be very appropriate and very helpful during the working :). I did asana, pranayama and a few postures during my working
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                            I'm not Georg, but I believe it would be very appropriate and very helpful during the working :).  I did asana, pranayama and a few postures during my working and found them to help immensely. 

                            Athena
                            --
                            www.enochian.org

                            On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:16 AM, daniel culver <danielson_07@...> wrote:


                            Thanks Georg.
                             
                            Great response as usual. That is really interesting you joined hare krishna temple.. I am extremely drawn to hinduism- particularly bhakti and laya yoga. It might be from all the hellfire and brimstone that I forced into my head from numerous readings of the q'uran during my sufi practice, but I am extremely deterred from abrahamic religions thereafter.
                             
                             I felt like, because of the sin doctrine, I was forcing myself to feel guilty about thoughts,impulses or behaviors in my life because of my desire to be more 'correct' or not 'go to hell'. But then once I took initiation from a shaykh and had a slight emotional breakdown, I realized that all doesn't really matter quite as much as how you work on yourself. After that I abandoned all ideas of organized religion and stopped practicing altogether- eventually coming to magic/occult practice where I found the abramelin to be something I could obtain esoteric knowledge through without the cult-ish aspect of modern esoteric groups. This post topic of sin was essentially to see if any of you, post operation, came to any unexpected conclusions on the idea..
                             
                            But your mention of the hare krishna temple leads me to a question I had in the back of my mind a little while- would laya (kriya,kundalini etc) yoga be inappropriate to practice before/during/after the abramelin working?

                          • daniel
                            Thanks Athena. Good to hear that worked out for you. I was just concerned with the result of combining the experiences of kundalini(laya yoga) and abramelin
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                              Thanks Athena.
                              Good to hear that worked out for you. I was just concerned with the result of combining the experiences of kundalini(laya yoga) and abramelin simultaneously.. It might actually prove to be a help and not a hindrance.



                              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm not Georg, but I believe it would be very appropriate and very helpful
                              > during the working :). I did asana, pranayama and a few postures during my
                              > working and found them to help immensely.
                              >
                              > Athena
                            • Athena
                              Well the reason I felt it helped is that there was no system, or dogma, or Gods, or anything involved accept just breathing and being... so nothing to get in
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                                Well the reason I felt it helped is that there was no system, or dogma, or Gods, or anything involved accept just breathing and being... so nothing to get in the way :).

                                Athena
                                --
                                www.enochian.org

                                On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:59 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:


                                Thanks Athena.
                                Good to hear that worked out for you. I was just concerned with the result of combining the experiences of kundalini(laya yoga) and abramelin simultaneously.. It might actually prove to be a help and not a hindrance.




                              • Khem Caigan
                                In his commentary on Genesis 6.2, Philo of Alexandria says that the beings described as angels by Moses (aggeloi) are referred to as daemons (daimonia) by the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 3, 2009
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                                  In his commentary on Genesis 6.2, Philo of
                                  Alexandria says that the beings described as
                                  angels by Moses (aggeloi) are referred to as
                                  daemons (daimonia) by the Greek philosophers :

                                  " Those beings, whom other philosophers call
                                  demons, Moses usually calls angels; and they
                                  are souls hovering in the air.

                                  And let no one suppose, that what is here stated
                                  is a fable, for it is necessarily true that the
                                  universe must be filled with living things in all
                                  its parts, since every one of its primary and
                                  elementary portions contains its appropriate animals
                                  and such as are consistent with its nature; --the
                                  earth containing terrestrial animals, the sea and
                                  the rivers containing aquatic animals, and the
                                  fire such as are born in the fire (but it is said,
                                  that such as these last are found chiefly in
                                  Macedonia), and the heaven containing the stars:
                                  for these also are entire souls pervading the
                                  universe, being unadulterated and divine, inasmuch
                                  as they move in a circle, which is the kind of motion
                                  most akin to the mind, for every one of them is the
                                  parent mind.

                                  It is therefore necessary that the air also should
                                  be full of living beings.

                                  And these beings are invisible to us, inasmuch as
                                  the air itself is not visible to mortal sight.

                                  But it does not follow, because our sight is
                                  incapable of perceiving the forms of souls, that
                                  for that reason there are no souls in the air;
                                  but it follows of necessity that they must be
                                  comprehended by the mind, in order that like may
                                  be contemplated by like. "

                                  - Philo of Alexandria , *On the Giants* II: 6-9.

                                  See also :

                                  Arcana Mundi
                                  by Georg Luck,
                                  page 207.
                                  ( Preview @GoogleBooks )
                                  http://tinyurl.com/oufowf

                                  Angels are demons are angels...

                                  Cors in Manu Domine,


                                  ~ Khem Caigan
                                  <Khem@...>

                                  " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                                  zodiacal sign (sar mazzal) of a person
                                  when it is sent below has the image of
                                  the person who is under it....

                                  And this is the meaning of 'And God
                                  created man in His image, in the image
                                  of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

                                  Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                                  and 'in the image'?

                                  One image refers to the image of man and
                                  the other to the image of the Angel of
                                  the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                                  of the man. "

                                  ~ from:
                                  *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                                  by R. Eleazar of Worms
                                • Voltaire07
                                  Sorry Daniel, I have not been a Devotee, that means living in the temple. I meant visiting, practicing the Bhakti and learning about the Indian philosphy.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
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                                    Sorry Daniel,

                                    I have not been a Devotee, that means living in the temple. I meant
                                    visiting, practicing the Bhakti and learning about the Indian philosphy.
                                    Where I really have been initiated, is in a Thai temple. But there was
                                    no time for meditation, because it was a real indegene temple and the
                                    brothers watched homeworks of elderless children, cared lost
                                    monkey-babies and thrown over the monastery wall dogs and cats. And they
                                    grew tea and herbs and taught me Thai astrology and I had a "wonderful"
                                    experience of destroying my ego: The Alchemist made an essence of herbs
                                    which is the cure for almost everything. Based on urin of cows. Maybe it
                                    is another aspect of getting rid of passions. . .

                                    The interesting question with the Hare Krishna was, like as Buddha: Do I
                                    follow a leader?
                                    I couldn't get out of that feeling at least as long as Prabhupada lived.
                                    But it was the devotees. Buddha was something else, I never felt guilty,
                                    after having bowed my knee in the temple.
                                    Abramelin is more "one of us" and he says, never follow leaders, more or
                                    less. The book points out so much, that You have to have Your own
                                    experience, that means it leaves You free.

                                    But to answer Your question. No discipline is inappropriate, it is only
                                    the question I mentioned above. Who stands behind the discipline, does
                                    anybody exploite minds, souls - purces? If Your teacher is a Guru und
                                    doesn't give Your coins You have to pay him to poor people of the town,
                                    I would kick him in the ass.

                                    best wishes
                                    Georg
                                  • daniel
                                    No discipline is inappropriate, it is only ... Well said Georg. I could understand how you wouldn t feel guilty in a buddhist temple- its not like they re
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 11, 2009
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                                      No discipline is inappropriate, it is only
                                      > the question I mentioned above. Who stands behind the discipline, does
                                      > anybody exploite minds, souls - purces? If Your teacher is a Guru und
                                      > doesn't give Your coins You have to pay him to poor people of the town,
                                      > I would kick him in the ass.
                                      >
                                      > best wishes
                                      > Georg
                                      >


                                      Well said Georg. I could understand how you wouldn't feel 'guilty' in a buddhist temple- its not like they're out to convert you! Do you think prabhupada is in it for the money and followers?

                                      I'm not sure I've asked- Have you completed the 18 month operation?
                                    • Voltaire07
                                      hi, I consider Prabhupada and the ISKCON as a serious organization. At the end I got enough information to know, that Prabhupada was an idealist and not out
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 23, 2009
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                                        hi,

                                        I consider Prabhupada and the ISKCON as a serious
                                        organization. At the
                                        end I got enough information to know, that Prabhupada was an
                                        idealist
                                        and not out for money at all. And above all knowing, You
                                        feel his
                                        presence and purity as somebody who devoted his life for a
                                        higher task,
                                        without any false intention like influencing peoples
                                        personality or so.

                                        The question about my experience arose earlier, but I can
                                        answer it again.
                                        It was simply after several years of experiencing practise
                                        in different
                                        disciplines. Yoga was the most intensive, but really intense
                                        and
                                        different tries like witchcraft, Wicca, KaHuna, Nichiren
                                        Shoshu (the Nam
                                        Myoho Renge Kyo). And right in the middle that meeting of
                                        an entity
                                        without name, that came again and quite a few tiomes over
                                        the years and
                                        meanwhile when Iam in the right mood, comes if asked.

                                        So when I got to know the Abramelin stuff, the Mathers
                                        retranslation
                                        into german, I was informed this is not the thing. I wasn't
                                        warned, this
                                        was dangerous, no it just has not been the thing. It was
                                        reduced to
                                        "exchangeable format". So I knew it from 1976 to 1980 and
                                        found the
                                        Hammer printed version, which wowed me out. Sorry, Iam not
                                        so familiar
                                        with english emotional expression. Then I knew, that what I had
                                        experienced since almost ten years, was the HGA. He never
                                        told me, but
                                        now I knew it.

                                        This is why I say, it depends on Your own traditions.
                                        Fortunately I was
                                        far away enough from my old christian thing, so I could at
                                        least say, it
                                        was an entity without name. If I would've been more in my
                                        families
                                        influence and even subconsciously I would have had a proper
                                        name in
                                        mind, not knowing this mind is only ratio.

                                        But on the second hand, after all these years, I just said
                                        hello to that
                                        guy and knew, the ritual is not my thing again. Maybe it was
                                        it in
                                        another lifetime.

                                        so long
                                        Georg
                                      • obarrbo
                                        I agree about Prabhupada. I like him and I think he was genuine in what he wanted to do, which was mainly to bring his Vishnu/Krishna related practice to the
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 23, 2009
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                                          I agree about Prabhupada. I like him and I think he was genuine in what he wanted to do, which was mainly to bring his Vishnu/Krishna related practice to the west and help out people in America and the Western world in general. I did have mixed feelings since some of the Krishna's I've met, and some of the things I've read, has a "the only way is Krishna" vibe, but I still like them. Even though I'm not into any religion or path being the only way to enlightenment or peace, I respect these people who are able to live so dedicated in their way of life.

                                          I'm mainly into Hinduism and even alot of Mainstream Hindus I've met like Prabhupada's translation of the Bhagavad Gita and own copies.

                                          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > hi,
                                          >
                                          > I consider Prabhupada and the ISKCON as a serious
                                          > organization. At the
                                          > end I got enough information to know, that Prabhupada was an
                                          > idealist
                                          > and not out for money at all. And above all knowing, You
                                          > feel his
                                          > presence and purity as somebody who devoted his life for a
                                          > higher task,
                                          > without any false intention like influencing peoples
                                          > personality or so.
                                          >
                                          > The question about my experience arose earlier, but I can
                                          > answer it again.
                                          > It was simply after several years of experiencing practise
                                          > in different
                                          > disciplines. Yoga was the most intensive, but really intense
                                          > and
                                          > different tries like witchcraft, Wicca, KaHuna, Nichiren
                                          > Shoshu (the Nam
                                          > Myoho Renge Kyo). And right in the middle that meeting of
                                          > an entity
                                          > without name, that came again and quite a few tiomes over
                                          > the years and
                                          > meanwhile when Iam in the right mood, comes if asked.
                                          >
                                          > So when I got to know the Abramelin stuff, the Mathers
                                          > retranslation
                                          > into german, I was informed this is not the thing. I wasn't
                                          > warned, this
                                          > was dangerous, no it just has not been the thing. It was
                                          > reduced to
                                          > "exchangeable format". So I knew it from 1976 to 1980 and
                                          > found the
                                          > Hammer printed version, which wowed me out. Sorry, Iam not
                                          > so familiar
                                          > with english emotional expression. Then I knew, that what I had
                                          > experienced since almost ten years, was the HGA. He never
                                          > told me, but
                                          > now I knew it.
                                          >
                                          > This is why I say, it depends on Your own traditions.
                                          > Fortunately I was
                                          > far away enough from my old christian thing, so I could at
                                          > least say, it
                                          > was an entity without name. If I would've been more in my
                                          > families
                                          > influence and even subconsciously I would have had a proper
                                          > name in
                                          > mind, not knowing this mind is only ratio.
                                          >
                                          > But on the second hand, after all these years, I just said
                                          > hello to that
                                          > guy and knew, the ritual is not my thing again. Maybe it was
                                          > it in
                                          > another lifetime.
                                          >
                                          > so long
                                          > Georg
                                          >
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