Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Thnak you hecubin23

Expand Messages
  • boofwayne
    Shalom Aleikum, I have read and reread your kind answer to my post. It blew me away! I thank you so much for your honesty, Im grateful to you and to everyone
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 18, 2009
      Shalom Aleikum,


      I have read and reread your kind answer to my post. It blew me
      away! I thank you so much for your honesty, Im grateful to you and to
      everyone here for all of the advice. If I may, I am an Essene, a
      cleric in the Essene order. I read Tanach everyday and pray 7 times a
      day as David said He would praise YHVH 7 times a day. Thanks be to
      YHVH for helping me with that part of my life . ( All parts of my
      life I should say).

      But am I ready to hear the voice of demons......no Im not, to be
      honest. The voice of angels...... I dont know. They are so Holy and
      strong, they have such a zeal for the Most High, I know they are
      nothing to play with or take lightly. Why would a person who invokes
      the HGA hear the voices of angels and demons all the time?

      As far as to the angels showing me my shame, is that because they
      wish to help me live a Holy life or is it for another reason? And if
      I may ask you, why did you get involved in this Divine Art? You have
      really openned my eyes to alot, and also I value your opinion and
      your experience in this, as I do all of the members here.

      I do not consider myself to be Holy in any way and this worries
      me, for a person would have to be holy to be in the presence of the
      HGA wouldnt they???? I really need your help on this, please forgive
      me for being a pain in the bottom on this subject.

      Wayne
    • hecubin23
      ... to ... a ... Then you are a fool. Keep doing as David has done. God s fools are most blessed... ... be ... invokes ... if ... have ... There are probably
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 19, 2009
        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "boofwayne" <boofwayne@...> wrote:
        >
        > Shalom Aleikum,
        >
        >
        > I have read and reread your kind answer to my post. It blew me
        > away! I thank you so much for your honesty, Im grateful to you and
        to
        > everyone here for all of the advice. If I may, I am an Essene, a
        > cleric in the Essene order. I read Tanach everyday and pray 7 times
        a
        > day as David said He would praise YHVH 7 times a day. Thanks be to
        > YHVH for helping me with that part of my life . ( All parts of my
        > life I should say).

        Then you are a fool. Keep doing as David has done. God's fools are
        most blessed...

        >
        > But am I ready to hear the voice of demons......no Im not, to
        be
        > honest. The voice of angels...... I dont know. They are so Holy and
        > strong, they have such a zeal for the Most High, I know they are
        > nothing to play with or take lightly. Why would a person who
        invokes
        > the HGA hear the voices of angels and demons all the time?
        >
        > As far as to the angels showing me my shame, is that because they
        > wish to help me live a Holy life or is it for another reason? And
        if
        > I may ask you, why did you get involved in this Divine Art? You
        have
        > really openned my eyes to alot, and also I value your opinion and
        > your experience in this, as I do all of the members here.

        There are probably several Angels and Devils all about you right at
        this moment, conversing amongst themselves, only you percieve them
        not. If you successfully invoke your HGA, you will hear them, and,
        eventually, even see them.

        Once your astral eyes and ears are open, your vulnerability will be
        apparent to them and they will sieze the opportunity to take
        advantage of that vulnerability. Some of the Angels do it to help
        you. However, some Angels may have a little dispute to settle with
        you first. Still others will take the opportunity to unload some
        unfinished business on the new Magus, and still others do it for
        sport. Some Angels are gentle, pleasant and delightful, but others
        are haughty and proud, while others are childish and playful.

        With the devils, it is much the same. Some do it to harm you, others
        have a score to settle with you (either you owe them or they owe
        you), others do it to unload unfinished business onto a qualified
        individual, and others do it for sport. Some devils are maliscious
        and cruel, others are sorrowful and sad, others businesslike, and
        others are just folksy. They are all different.

        I got into the Abramelin Art by successfully invoking my HGA and the
        four princes of evil (although these were invoked by different names)
        in solemn prayer. I did not consult the Abramelin Book, nor had I
        even heard of it at the time. I did not perform the Rite. About three
        years after I did so, a copy of the Mathers translation found its way
        into my study. That's it.
        >
        > I do not consider myself to be Holy in any way and this worries
        > me, for a person would have to be holy to be in the presence of the
        > HGA wouldnt they???? I really need your help on this, please
        forgive
        > me for being a pain in the bottom on this subject.
        >
        > Wayne
        >
        You're not a pain in the bottom at all. Don't worry about all that;
        you are in the prescence of Angels right now, only you percieve it
        not. You were holy to God from the day you were formed, and ever will
        be.

        Cheers, mate.
      • daniel
        Hecubin I m curious: were you living essentially the same lifestyle as the one proposed in the abramelin operation? And for how long?
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 19, 2009
          Hecubin I'm curious: were you living essentially the same lifestyle as
          the one proposed in the abramelin operation? And for how long?
        • hecubin23
          ... as ... The prayer that invoked my HGA was made in late July, 2000. The following morning, I awoke and heard an argument between Satan (who answers to a
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 19, 2009
            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hecubin I'm curious: were you living essentially the same lifestyle
            as
            > the one proposed in the abramelin operation? And for how long?
            >
            The prayer that invoked my HGA was made in late July, 2000. The
            following morning, I awoke and heard an argument between Satan (who
            answers to a different name in my working) and my HGA. At first, I
            thought it was the neighbors downstairs. After two weeks, they
            addressed me, but it was Satan who spoke first.

            The three months prior to that, I lived in isolation. I only left my
            apartment to get bare necessities (I didn't have a lot of money). I
            spent most of my time in my spare bedroom daydreaming, smoking
            reefer, and reading. The books I was perusing included the NIV
            Bible, "The Secret Doctrine of the Rosicrucians" (Magus
            Incognito), "Breaks" (Crowley), and several books by Robert Anton
            Wilson. I was also doing Tarot card readings and Mudane Astrology. I
            seldom had money to buy food, and yet, instead of doing something
            about it, I just got high, daydreamed, and read books about God and
            Magic. Like a fool in love, I guess...

            The twelve months prior to that period were spent much the same way,
            except that I worked a full-time job delivering pizzas between my
            reveries.

            All that came on the heels of a less-than-honorable discharge from
            the Army for what was officially described as "a pattern of
            misconduct." I deliberately got into trouble so I could get
            discharged, and thus have more time and energy to devote to
            daydreaming, smoking reefer, and reading books about God and Magic. A
            fool in love, indeed...

            Peace.
          • daniel
            Ummm are you sure that wasn t just really dank medical kush that made you see your HGA? Because I have smoked some medical before that I swear took me right to
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 20, 2009
              Ummm are you sure that wasn't just really dank medical kush that made
              you see your HGA? Because I have smoked some medical before that I
              swear took me right to the angelic choirs- lol.. See I smoke too, but
              I plan on giving that up for atleast 18 months (along with alcohol)
              to do this operation..


              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hecubin23" <hecubin23@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hecubin I'm curious: were you living essentially the same
              lifestyle
              > as
              > > the one proposed in the abramelin operation? And for how long?
              > >
              > The prayer that invoked my HGA was made in late July, 2000. The
              > following morning, I awoke and heard an argument between Satan (who
              > answers to a different name in my working) and my HGA. At first, I
              > thought it was the neighbors downstairs. After two weeks, they
              > addressed me, but it was Satan who spoke first.
              >
              > The three months prior to that, I lived in isolation. I only left
              my
              > apartment to get bare necessities (I didn't have a lot of money). I
              > spent most of my time in my spare bedroom daydreaming, smoking
              > reefer, and reading. The books I was perusing included the NIV
              > Bible, "The Secret Doctrine of the Rosicrucians" (Magus
              > Incognito), "Breaks" (Crowley), and several books by Robert Anton
              > Wilson. I was also doing Tarot card readings and Mudane Astrology.
              I
              > seldom had money to buy food, and yet, instead of doing something
              > about it, I just got high, daydreamed, and read books about God and
              > Magic. Like a fool in love, I guess...
              >
              > The twelve months prior to that period were spent much the same
              way,
              > except that I worked a full-time job delivering pizzas between my
              > reveries.
              >
              > All that came on the heels of a less-than-honorable discharge from
              > the Army for what was officially described as "a pattern of
              > misconduct." I deliberately got into trouble so I could get
              > discharged, and thus have more time and energy to devote to
              > daydreaming, smoking reefer, and reading books about God and Magic.
              A
              > fool in love, indeed...
              >
              > Peace.
              >
            • hecubin23
              ... Lol... No, I m virtually positive it wasn t the stuff I was smoking... From where I m at I m inclined to say that it s probably a good idea to stop smoking
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 20, 2009
                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ummm are you sure that wasn't just really dank medical kush that made
                > you see your HGA? Because I have smoked some medical before that I
                > swear took me right to the angelic choirs- lol.. See I smoke too, but
                > I plan on giving that up for atleast 18 months (along with alcohol)
                > to do this operation..

                Lol... No, I'm virtually positive it wasn't the stuff I was smoking...

                From where I'm at I'm inclined to say that it's probably a good idea to
                stop smoking for the operation; if you're going to do things by the
                book, you should do things by the whole book, and not just part of the
                book, and that means abstaining from ALL forms of intoxication for the
                entire Rite.

                I would not say that such abstinence is necessary, however. Call to
                mind when Jesus said, "What goes into a man's mouth does not make
                him 'unclean' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes
                him 'unclean'" (Matthew 15:11, NIV). Just be sure that if you do not
                abstain, that you can still keep your heart and mind turned toward Holy
                things, and dwell not upon things that are vulgar and profane.
              • hwhydog
                I am intrigued by the three months preceding your final prayer, which as you said led to the revelation of your HGA. I am more interested in the principles
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
                  I am intrigued by the three months preceding your final prayer, which
                  as you said led to the revelation of your HGA. I am more interested
                  in the principles behind the Abramelin working, as even Athena who
                  advocates no changes to the working, admits to not doing the 18 month
                  working. So which working is the one that requires no change, no
                  alteration to it? If the Abramelin working can only "work" in one
                  particular way, then either the 6 month or the 18 month working is
                  flawed.

                  The Order of the Nine Angles have published a series of initiations
                  particular to their organization, level four [or Internal Adept]. It
                  is a three month isolation with rules very similar to the principles
                  you applied. As I am not an advocate of dogma and as the HGA
                  experience is subjective [or if you wish deeply personal], I am
                  predisposed to achieving the HGA experience via similar but not the
                  compulsory fixed methods of either.

                  In my opinion, one of the most important factors as mentioned by you
                  is piousness. No matter how anyone wishes to examine the Abramelin
                  working, whether theistically or non-theistically a sincere and
                  reverent approach indicates a fully committed self, committed without
                  doubt as to the outcome of the working. Aaron Leitch's analytical
                  approach examines the HGA from many vantage points including
                  Santaria.

                  As commented on by Aaron Leitch: "…The Abramelin Operation cannot be
                  performed in today's modern world! Certainly, such a feat would have
                  been possible for a well-off physician and political advisor in
                  medieval Europe. However, since we today can not just walk away from
                  work and rent to live like a monk for six months, that rules out
                  Abramelin as an option. THIS LEAVES THE TEXT AS LITTLE MORE THAN A
                  HISTORICAL CURIOSITY…" (Capitalization mine)

                  I cannot agree with Aaron on this point. Piousness is sincerity and
                  sincerity is an application of will, as many here may attest to. That
                  Will, when applied achieves the desire to complete three months, six
                  months or eighteen months. The six month and eighteen month rites are
                  allocated into manageable bites, even for "modern man".

                  There is a principle behind Aarons comments though, knowledge of our
                  world, of archaeology and the human mind demand a re-think of this
                  working. Aaron even quotes from the Mathers' translation: "…
                  nevertheless now this is hardly possible; and we must accommodate
                  ourselves unto the era (in which we live); and being unable to carry
                  it out
                  in one way, we should endeavor to do so in another; and attach
                  ourselves only unto Divine Things. (Book II, Ch. 10, p.72)

                  So … hecubin23, please tell me more of the three month period and
                  what effect this may have had on the final revelation, in your
                  opinion of course.

                  SRD




                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hecubin23" <hecubin23@...> wrote:


                  > The prayer that invoked my HGA was made in late July, 2000. The
                  > following morning, I awoke and heard an argument between Satan (who
                  > answers to a different name in my working) and my HGA. At first, I
                  > thought it was the neighbors downstairs. After two weeks, they
                  > addressed me, but it was Satan who spoke first.
                  >
                  > The three months prior to that, I lived in isolation. I only left
                  my
                  > apartment to get bare necessities (I didn't have a lot of money). I
                  > spent most of my time in my spare bedroom daydreaming, smoking
                  > reefer, and reading. The books I was perusing included the NIV
                  > Bible, "The Secret Doctrine of the Rosicrucians" (Magus
                  > Incognito), "Breaks" (Crowley), and several books by Robert Anton
                  > Wilson. I was also doing Tarot card readings and Mudane Astrology.
                • hecubin23
                  ... First of all, I would like to indicate, as I did before, that I did not deliberately seek to call forth my HGA; at least, not in the same vain that one
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > So … hecubin23, please tell me more of the three month period and
                    > what effect this may have had on the final revelation, in your
                    > opinion of course.
                    >
                    > SRD

                    First of all, I would like to indicate, as I did before, that I did
                    not deliberately seek to call forth my HGA; at least, not in the same
                    vain that one performing the Abramelin Rite does... it simply
                    happened that way.

                    For me, the final three months before the invocation, and even the
                    several months prior to that, were a difficult time for me. I was a
                    young man who was just coming to realize that I was not going to
                    secure my own happiness on the terms that the world was offering to
                    me. Any contemplation of worldly things just led me into feelings of
                    depression and hopelessness.

                    I still had God, Magic, and reefer, though. The last several months
                    before my invocation were a period of "turning away from the
                    world"... I guess you could say that my Hope (another virtue, like
                    Piety) had resolved to make her last stand with me there, with God,
                    Magic, and reefer, and whole stack of other rejected quarry-stones
                    that I had gathered.

                    The prayer that invoked my angel went thus: "...I want to be a
                    responsible, religious, respectable, and reasonable person..." I
                    further went on to say that I believed that God had appointed a
                    Guardian Angel to watch over me. It was simply an expression of the
                    Will of a desperate man who did not want to see his sacred flame
                    snuffed out by the iniquities of the profane world, and no more.

                    If you are a Jew, then follow ALL of Moses' Law, as best you can, and
                    be 100% a Jew; else become a Christian and be forgiven of your sins.
                    In the same vain, if you would perform a ritual invocation of your
                    Holy Guardian Angel, then follow 100% of the ritual, as best you can,
                    and invoke 100% of your Holy Guardian Angel; else become a
                    Rosicrucian and leave it all to God to decide whom the Angels
                    converse with. The young Samuel did not ritually invoke the presence
                    in the Temple; it simply spoke to him when it had want of one worthy
                    to hear it.

                    In my own experience, the time periods given in the texts are not
                    fixed at all. For example, the Convocation of the Evil Spirits takes
                    place over a period of three days, according to the texts. In my own
                    working, it took several months. For several weeks I struggled with
                    Paimon before I bound him; I then had a space of about half an hour
                    to dress my wounds and reflect on what I had done before I had to
                    turn and face dark Baelzebub, with whom I also struggled for several
                    weeks. But when Asmodai came test me, I bound him in less than a
                    minute over Strawberry Daquiris while watching the Daytona 500 with
                    some friends.

                    Had I performed the Rite, it may have been different; I may very well
                    have bound all of the Evil Spirits in three days, as it is described.
                    I don't know. I believe that you are correct when you say that
                    sincerity, commitment to the task, and virtue are more important than
                    the rote of the ritual, every time. The sin of Hophni and Phinaeus
                    will not be atoned for by burning insence, offering sacrifices, and
                    speaking barbarous names at the altar, and it is so written.

                    Peace, friend.
                  • hwhydog
                    You prayed for your guardian angel yet you did not deliberately call forth your HGA. Either you did or you didn t, it appears to me by your writing that you
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
                      You prayed for your guardian angel yet you did not "deliberately"
                      call forth your HGA. Either you did or you didn't, it appears to me
                      by your writing that you did. You even stated that you BELIEVE God
                      would have an angel for you. What I find strange is your announcement
                      regarding having attained via your "own rite" knowledge of your HGA,
                      yet admonish others to stick to the Abramelin working explicitly?

                      Besides your agonized state of mind, the 3 months prior to you prayer
                      calling for your HGA, did in fact have some sensible or comparative
                      elements to the Abramelin working. I was hoping that you would be
                      able to see what they may have been.

                      SRD

                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hecubin23" <hecubin23@...> wrote:

                      > First of all, I would like to indicate, as I did before, that I did
                      > not deliberately seek to call forth my HGA; at least, not in the
                      same > vain that one performing the Abramelin Rite does... it simply
                      > happened that way.

                      > The prayer that invoked my angel went thus: "...I want to be a
                      > responsible, religious, respectable, and reasonable person..." I
                      > further went on to say that I believed that God had appointed a
                      > Guardian Angel to watch over me. It was simply an expression of the
                      > Will of a desperate man who did not want to see his sacred flame
                      > snuffed out by the iniquities of the profane world, and no more.

                      > In the same vain, if you would perform a ritual invocation of your
                      > Holy Guardian Angel, then follow 100% of the ritual, as best you
                      can,
                    • hecubin23
                      ... I only made mention of my Guardian Angel in prayer; I did not deliberatley call him forth to appear to me, nor did it even enter my mind. When I first
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
                        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You prayed for your guardian angel yet you did not "deliberately"
                        > call forth your HGA. Either you did or you didn't, it appears to me
                        > by your writing that you did. You even stated that you BELIEVE God
                        > would have an angel for you. What I find strange is your announcement
                        > regarding having attained via your "own rite" knowledge of your HGA,
                        > yet admonish others to stick to the Abramelin working explicitly?
                        >
                        > Besides your agonized state of mind, the 3 months prior to you prayer
                        > calling for your HGA, did in fact have some sensible or comparative
                        > elements to the Abramelin working. I was hoping that you would be
                        > able to see what they may have been.
                        >
                        > SRD

                        I only made mention of my Guardian Angel in prayer; I did not
                        deliberatley call him forth to appear to me, nor did it even enter my
                        mind. When I first heard my HGA and Satan arguing, I even, at first,
                        thought it was my neighbors downstairs. It appears to me that you eat
                        sour grapes in the admittedly not-so-vain hope of setting my own teeth
                        on edge...

                        I did not say that I attained via my own rite, as you falsley charge. I
                        only prayed, and was answered by an Angel. Did young Samuel ritually
                        invoke the presence as he slept in the Temple? No, he did not, and yet
                        the presence spoke to him. What of Paul? Or Jonah? Or Moses? No, the
                        Lord and His Angels sought them out. Did Hagar, the mother of Ishmael,
                        invoke an Angel by ritual? No, she only cried out, and was answered by
                        the Lord's Angel. That is all I did, and God blesses whom it pleases
                        Him to bless.

                        Do you think me a hypocrite simply because God blessed me, when I made
                        no offering other than a solemn supplication, and then I admonish
                        others to make offerings to God as the Holy Men before me have
                        prescribed? Then call to mind where Muhammad has said, "God disdains
                        not the recital of anything, even as small as a gnat or smaller. Those
                        who believe recognize it as truth from their Lord, while those who
                        disbelieve mutter, 'What does God mean by such a recital?' The truth is
                        that many are adjudged by God to be in error, and many does He guide by
                        means of the Holy Scriptures..." (Surah 2:27-28)

                        Would you call forth an Angel? Then do so as the Holy Men before you
                        have prescribed, as best you can, for God disdains not the recital of
                        anything, and it is so written. If you do not wish to do as the Holy
                        Men have told us we should do, then get out of Inner Temple, repent of
                        the business of the Inner Temple, and go mingle in the Temple's
                        courtyard with the Gentiles where you belong, and leave it to God to
                        decide with whom the Angels converse. Whatever you do, God will bless
                        those whom it pleases Him to bless, and the Sin of Hophni and Phinehas
                        will not be atoned for by sacrifices or offerings, it is also so
                        written...

                        As to how my own working resembled what the Holy Men before me have
                        prescribed, I will sum up one more time for the sake of the mote in
                        your eye, and the timber in my own eye:
                        1) I was in a long period of isolation,
                        2) I was turning away from the profane and toward the sacred, and
                        3) I named my Guardian Angel and the Four Princes in solemn
                        supplication to the Almighty.

                        As for the timber in my own eye, my Holy Guardian Angel informs me that
                        God will judge between me and Astaroth on the last day concerning all
                        the things in which we differ, and so may it be.

                        Shalom Hashamayim Amen.
                      • hwhydog
                        Hecubin 23, Don t worry I do not eat sour grapes, but as you are young by your own admission, I have to presume your defensiveness is the vibrancy of youth. My
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 26, 2009
                          Hecubin 23,

                          Don't worry I do not eat sour grapes, but as you are young by your
                          own admission, I have to presume your defensiveness is the vibrancy
                          of youth. My questions are sincere and I wish to establish more
                          around your methods. I would like to remind you of your opening words
                          here:

                          # 627 - Hello, all. I'm a new member to this group and I would like
                          to take
                          the opportunity to introduce myself. I successfully invoked my Holy
                          Guardian Angel in the summer of 2000…"

                          And again: "… According to my own HGA, the Mathers and Dehn Rites are
                          vain repititions that won't work for the impious…"

                          When someone states they have been successful in conversation with
                          their HGA and that your HGA does not even recommend the Abramelin
                          working, yet you prescribe it to the letter to others – makes no
                          sense to me. In terms of your statements it would appear that you
                          presume others here impious i.t.o. your HGA recommendation?

                          A questioning attitude by others [including myself] here shows an
                          interest in the work of those that have completed the Abramelin
                          successfully, such questioning is not a personal challenge. Your
                          comments are interesting, but sadly not the reflection of piety,
                          perhaps the Abramelin working's council regarding age does have some
                          validity, or is it the reefer.

                          SRD



                          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hecubin23" <hecubin23@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > You prayed for your guardian angel yet you did not "deliberately"
                          > > call forth your HGA. Either you did or you didn't, it appears to
                          me
                          > > by your writing that you did. You even stated that you BELIEVE
                          God
                          > > would have an angel for you. What I find strange is your
                          announcement
                          > > regarding having attained via your "own rite" knowledge of your
                          HGA,
                          > > yet admonish others to stick to the Abramelin working explicitly?
                          > >
                          > > Besides your agonized state of mind, the 3 months prior to you
                          prayer
                          > > calling for your HGA, did in fact have some sensible or
                          comparative
                          > > elements to the Abramelin working. I was hoping that you would be
                          > > able to see what they may have been.
                          > >
                          > > SRD
                          >
                          > I only made mention of my Guardian Angel in prayer; I did not
                          > deliberatley call him forth to appear to me, nor did it even enter
                          my
                          > mind. When I first heard my HGA and Satan arguing, I even, at
                          first,
                          > thought it was my neighbors downstairs. It appears to me that you
                          eat
                          > sour grapes in the admittedly not-so-vain hope of setting my own
                          teeth
                          > on edge...
                          >
                          > I did not say that I attained via my own rite, as you falsley
                          charge. I
                          > only prayed, and was answered by an Angel. Did young Samuel
                          ritually
                          > invoke the presence as he slept in the Temple? No, he did not, and
                          yet
                          > the presence spoke to him. What of Paul? Or Jonah? Or Moses? No,
                          the
                          > Lord and His Angels sought them out. Did Hagar, the mother of
                          Ishmael,
                          > invoke an Angel by ritual? No, she only cried out, and was answered
                          by
                          > the Lord's Angel. That is all I did, and God blesses whom it
                          pleases
                          > Him to bless.
                          >
                          > Do you think me a hypocrite simply because God blessed me, when I
                          made
                          > no offering other than a solemn supplication, and then I admonish
                          > others to make offerings to God as the Holy Men before me have
                          > prescribed? Then call to mind where Muhammad has said, "God
                          disdains
                          > not the recital of anything, even as small as a gnat or smaller.
                          Those
                          > who believe recognize it as truth from their Lord, while those who
                          > disbelieve mutter, 'What does God mean by such a recital?' The
                          truth is
                          > that many are adjudged by God to be in error, and many does He
                          guide by
                          > means of the Holy Scriptures..." (Surah 2:27-28)
                          >
                          > Would you call forth an Angel? Then do so as the Holy Men before
                          you
                          > have prescribed, as best you can, for God disdains not the recital
                          of
                          > anything, and it is so written. If you do not wish to do as the
                          Holy
                          > Men have told us we should do, then get out of Inner Temple, repent
                          of
                          > the business of the Inner Temple, and go mingle in the Temple's
                          > courtyard with the Gentiles where you belong, and leave it to God
                          to
                          > decide with whom the Angels converse. Whatever you do, God will
                          bless
                          > those whom it pleases Him to bless, and the Sin of Hophni and
                          Phinehas
                          > will not be atoned for by sacrifices or offerings, it is also so
                          > written...
                          >
                          > As to how my own working resembled what the Holy Men before me have
                          > prescribed, I will sum up one more time for the sake of the mote in
                          > your eye, and the timber in my own eye:
                          > 1) I was in a long period of isolation,
                          > 2) I was turning away from the profane and toward the sacred, and
                          > 3) I named my Guardian Angel and the Four Princes in solemn
                          > supplication to the Almighty.
                          >
                          > As for the timber in my own eye, my Holy Guardian Angel informs me
                          that
                          > God will judge between me and Astaroth on the last day concerning
                          all
                          > the things in which we differ, and so may it be.
                          >
                          > Shalom Hashamayim Amen.
                          >
                        • hecubin23
                          ... words ... are ... some ... My friend, I spit fire at you because I percieve that you would bind me in the chains of Astaroth, though I suspect you do not
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 27, 2009
                            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hecubin 23,
                            >
                            > Don't worry I do not eat sour grapes, but as you are young by your
                            > own admission, I have to presume your defensiveness is the vibrancy
                            > of youth. My questions are sincere and I wish to establish more
                            > around your methods. I would like to remind you of your opening
                            words
                            > here:
                            >
                            > # 627 - Hello, all. I'm a new member to this group and I would like
                            > to take
                            > the opportunity to introduce myself. I successfully invoked my Holy
                            > Guardian Angel in the summer of 2000…"
                            >
                            > And again: "… According to my own HGA, the Mathers and Dehn Rites
                            are
                            > vain repititions that won't work for the impious…"
                            >
                            > When someone states they have been successful in conversation with
                            > their HGA and that your HGA does not even recommend the Abramelin
                            > working, yet you prescribe it to the letter to others – makes no
                            > sense to me. In terms of your statements it would appear that you
                            > presume others here impious i.t.o. your HGA recommendation?
                            >
                            > A questioning attitude by others [including myself] here shows an
                            > interest in the work of those that have completed the Abramelin
                            > successfully, such questioning is not a personal challenge. Your
                            > comments are interesting, but sadly not the reflection of piety,
                            > perhaps the Abramelin working's council regarding age does have
                            some
                            > validity, or is it the reefer.
                            >
                            > SRD

                            My friend, I spit fire at you because I percieve that you would bind
                            me in the chains of Astaroth, though I suspect you do not know why
                            this perception of mine is even a mote justified. You are even wise
                            to do so, if a little brash as well. Your brashness I forgive because
                            I, too, am brash. I do not forgive you for being wise.

                            To be more clear, the subtle difference between my own working and
                            that of most Abremelin Artists is one of intent. Your intent to call
                            forth an Angel to appearance and familiar conversation is
                            premeditated; as I have said, when I made the prayer that called
                            forth the Angel who guards me, it had not even entered my mind that
                            an Angel would condescend to appear to me and speak to me. My own
                            invocation bore semblance to the invocation by Abraham's concubine
                            Hagar, who also conversed with an Angel, but not by her own design.

                            If you would make a premeditated invocation of an Angel to visible
                            appearance and familiar conversation, I counsel you to do so as the
                            Holy Men before you have instructed, because, as Muhammed prophecied,
                            God disdains not the Q'uran (English: recital, repitition, semblance,
                            or similitude) of anything, even as small as a gnat or smaller. The
                            men who wrote these books on invocation know best because they have
                            invoked successfully (and so have I), and they further have the
                            benefit of Angelic insight into these matters (and so do I). This is
                            not the counsel of Samael; it is the counsel of Gabriel. If you would
                            not do as they have instructed, then do not make a premedited
                            invocation of an Angel to visible appearance and familiar
                            conversation at all; simply be mindful of prayer, and of the Holy
                            Writ, as it becomes a pious lay-worshipper, and leave it to God to
                            decide with whom the Angels converse. I believe that is the best
                            method for anyone who would NOT follow the letter AND the spirit of
                            the instructions for invocation, because that is the same method I
                            used (i.e. no method at all, or even the intent). I'll say that
                            again: I believe that is the best method for anyone who would NOT
                            follow the letter AND the spirit of the instructions for invocation,
                            because that is the same method I used (i.e. no method at all, or
                            even the intent). This is not the counsel of Belial; it is the
                            counsel of Javanael. This counsel is so given that you might be on
                            guard against vanity; God blesses whom it pleases him to bless.

                            I do not charge anyone here with impiety; nor do I charge as impious
                            anyone who would follow the instructions of the Abramelin Magicians.
                            I only indicated that following the instructions without the
                            requisite virtue will not work, because it renders the operation a
                            vain repition (duh). Since God disdains not the Q'uran (English:
                            repitition) of anything, who performs such a grave repitition in
                            vanity does so at great personal risk. To disdain the spirit of the
                            working is to render the letter of the instructions inert, at best,
                            and dangerous, at worst (again, duh).

                            As to Abramelin's counsel regarding the age of the operator, that
                            counsel only falls upon the eyes and ears of those who make a
                            premeditated invocation, and is irrelevant to those who call forth in
                            the vain of Hagar. In Hagar's vain, even young children may invoke;
                            Samuel was only a child when the Presense of the Lord first spoke to
                            him, and the Kingdom of Heaven was prepared for ones such as these.

                            I do not mind that anyone should inquire or question me of my own
                            experiences; but I do mind an irreverant tone toward my own humbling
                            experiences as an Abramelin operator. Call to mind the burden of
                            Jonah, when he was called to prophecy in Ninevah; I am no Prophet
                            like Jonah was, but I am a kindred spirit of his.

                            And again, God will judge between me and Astaroth concerning all the
                            things wherein we differ, and so may it be.

                            Shalom Hashamayim Amen.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.