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Re: [abramelin] Re: God

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  • daniel culver
    I mean christianity as a whole. Its hard for me to put into words but it just doesn t seem very effective for ME. Multiple reasons like the forms of
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2009
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      I mean christianity as a whole. Its hard for me to put into words but it just doesn't seem very effective for ME. Multiple reasons like the forms of prayer,rememberance,idealogy etc..
      thewingsofcorvus <thewingsofcorvus@...> wrote:
      Daniel

      It does boggle the mind.

      I too asked myself the same question in context to my own childhood
      religion. Like you I have no real problems with Christianity, but I
      found that it lacked the psychological edge that I needed.

      What do mean by lack of inherent discipline? Do mean within the
      context of your childhood church, or Christianity as a whole?

      What else considered?

      --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, daniel culver <danielson_07@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > We clearly both have similar personal considerations to take into
      account before this operation. My personal qualms are with 'staying
      with the religion of my childhood'- christianity. It's not that I
      don't like it or jesus' teachings, I just don't feel it has enough
      inherent discipline within it for me to gain much progress.
      >
      > thewingsofcorvus <thewingsofcorvus@ ...> wrote: Hey Daniel
      >
      > I think the point of the Ritual clear, I suppose some people might
      > perform the operation under dubious pretenses, I mean this face it
      > this type of work attracts it's fair share of crazies. I'm doing it
      > because the summation of the work presents a unique opportunity to
      > come face to face with ones maker. IMO the magical powers, as you
      > pointed out are a by product of this union.
      >
      > As far as soul searching goes, I know what my God is but am confused
      > as to how to pray and adore an abstract point that defies expression.
      > If I was pagan I could find a deity in which these attributes are
      > manifest and proceed from there. etc. But I'm not. Kabbalistically
      > think Ain, Ain soph, Ain soph Aur.
      >
      > My point is how can you pray to God, when every attempt to
      > conceptualize God, limit's and confines it into personification of
      > personal preference thus destroying the innocence and pure
      > consciousness that it embodies.
      >
      > Perhaps this is more of a personal question and one for me to figure
      > out myself.
      >
      > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, daniel culver <danielson_07@ > wrote:
      > >
      > > What is your reason for doing the abramelin operation then? If not
      > to come to a more complete understanding of God (and serve your fellow
      > man with that knowledge and wisdom) , then you should do some more
      > soul-searching. IMO, the sacred magic is a positive side-effect of
      > coming to that understanding of your relationship to God.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > thewingsofcorvus <thewingsofcorvus@ > wrote:
      > > See I don't Know. This has troubled me for some years.
      > >
      > > I was raised a Catholic, Studied Tibetan Buddhism in the Kargyu
      > > tradition. Found Kabbalah, Crowley and the GD, have practiced Ritual
      > > magic for 5 years.
      > >
      > > I've read widely on the various religions of the world, taken a liking
      > > to String theory and Quantum physics and the Holographic model. And
      > > through of this I am finding that instead of "praying" to some
      > > Biblical God, my prayer takes the form of a Question mark ????
      > > I suppose that if I was to give a Model of God I would say the Chaos
      > > principle would Sum it up nicely.
      > >
      > > How do you make prayers to an undefinable God?
      > > The closest I come to it is to meditate on emptiness.
      > >
      > > Which leaved me in a bit of a pickle.
      > >
      > > Instead of Supplicating God with prayers to His/her greatness do I
      > > question instead...." Oh God where art though?"
      > >
      > > Or do I simply sit in silence and meditate on emptiness?
      > >
      > > To pray to some other God would be a farce.
      > >
      > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@ > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I think God and your HGA take care of that.... it's more about
      > them and
      > > > you. What you are doing is allowing yourself to invoke your HGA.
      > > That is
      > > > my perception of it anyways. Also, during the working, you
      > > definitely do
      > > > get a larger and more complete understanding of God.
      > > >
      > > > Athena
      > > > --
      > > > www.enochian. org
      > > >
      > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 4:57 AM, thewingsofcorvus <
      > > > thewingsofcorvus@ > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > I know this question is going to upset some people, but I figure
      > > it's
      > > > > important.
      > > > >
      > > > > If you invoke God and his Holy Guardian Angel and your view of
      > God is
      > > > > incomplete - Do you invoke an incomplete Guardian Angel?
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Odo cicle qaa
      > > > --
      > > > www.enochian. org
      > > >
      > >
      >


    • Khem Caigan
      ... ... You say that you have some experience with the Kargyu School, so I would assume that you are familiar with the idea of meditation both
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 4, 2009
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        The Wings of Corvus doth schreibble :
        >
        > I was raised a Catholic, studied Tibetan Buddhism in the Kargyu
        > tradition. Found Kabbalah, Crowley and the GD, have practiced Ritual
        > magic for 5 years.
        <SNIPS>
        > How do you make prayers to an undefinable God?
        > The closest I come to it is to meditate on emptiness.
        >
        > Instead of Supplicating God with prayers to His/her greatness do I
        > question instead...."Oh God where art though?"
        >
        > Or do I simply sit in silence and meditate on emptiness?
        >
        > To pray to some other God would be a farce.
        <SNIPS>

        You say that you have some experience with the Kargyu
        School, so I would assume that you are familiar with
        the idea of meditation both with and without form(?)

        For those who are not be familiar with the Kargyu, there
        is an evocation of your personal Deity in front of you,
        as well as the assumption of that Deity's form
        ( "invocation" ).

        Periods of lengthy repetitions of mantra and visualizations
        alternate with periods of meditation on Emptiness.

        Now, with regard to Catholicism, see :

        Negative theology

        Negative theology—also known as the Via Negativa (Latin for "Negative
        Way") and Apophatic theology—is a theology that attempts to describe God
        by negation, to speak of God only in terms of what may not be said about
        God.

        In brief, the attempt is to gain and express knowledge of God by
        describing what God is not (apophasis), rather than by describing what
        God is. The apophatic tradition is often, though not always, allied with
        the approach of mysticism, which focuses on a spontaneous or cultivated
        individual experience of the divine reality beyond the realm of ordinary
        perception, an experience often unmediated by the structures of
        traditional organized religion or learned thought and behavior.

        ~ from :
        http://tinyurl.com/ctyxa

        So, there you are.

        Instead of Either-Or, you might try doing Both.

        See also :

        Deity yoga
        http://tinyurl.com/aqw5k7

        For more information on the six month long Ritual Service
        for acquiring one's personal Deity, see Stephan Beyer's
        *The Cult of Tara : Magic and Ritual in Tibet*
        http://tinyurl.com/dfpfze

        Incidentally, Stephen Beyer studied with Drugpa Kagyu
        Buddhists while writing *The Cult of Tara*.

        Also see the second chapter of the *Juratus* on obtaining
        the Vision of the Deity, and note the various Orations of
        the Hours and Days :

        Liber Juratus (Royal MS 17Axlii)
        or
        The Sworne Booke of Honorius
        http://www.esotericarchives.com/juratus/juratus.htm

        And here are a couple of links to an online transcription
        of the *Sepher Raziel*, for purposes of comparison with
        the *Juratus* :

        Liber Salomonis: Sepher Raziel – Part 1
        British Library Sloane MS 3826: 2r-27r
        http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/Raziel1.html

        Liber Salomonis: Sepher Raziel – Part 2
        British Library Sloane MS 3826: 2r-27r
        http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/Raziel2.html

        I also refer you to our List Message Archives :

        Where does one start?
        http://tinyurl.com/b3qec2

        Also, with regard to cycles of hourly/daily/yearly prayers
        within Judaism and Christianity, see :

        Liturgy of the Hours
        http://tinyurl.com/c8tnn5

        Canonical hours
        http://tinyurl.com/3ava48

        Book of hours
        http://tinyurl.com/3xb5x4

        And see also :

        *Speaking With One’s Self
        Autoscopic Phenomena in Writings
        from the Ecstatic Kabbalah*(.PDF)
        by Shahar Arzy, Moshe Idel,
        Theodor Landis & Olaf Blanke
        http://tinyurl.com/ysrx57

        Cors in Manu Domine,


        ~ Khem Caigan
        <Khem@...>

        Every body placed in the luminous air spreads out
        in circles and fills the surrounding space with
        infinite likenesses of itself and appears all in
        all. ~ Leonardo da Vinci
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