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Re: [abramelin] Re: Religion and Abramelin Operation

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  • Georg Dehn
    hi Daniel the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah. Choosing a religion is a very private thing.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2009
      hi Daniel

      the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
      zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

      Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
      a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
      have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
      out in the german book, they are related to the three
      Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
      astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

      Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
      the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

      My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
      Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
      belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
      and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
      have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
      much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
      teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
      the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
      by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
      more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
      precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
      meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

      Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
      started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
      300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
      for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
      feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
      advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
      and al Ghazzali.

      so long
      Do what thou wilst!

      Georg






      daniel culver schrieb:
      >
      >
      > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
      > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
      > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
      > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
      > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
      > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
      > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
      > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
      > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
      > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
      >
      > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
      >
      > alright,
      >
      > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
      > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
      > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
      > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
      > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
      > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
      > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
      > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
      > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
      > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
      >
      > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
      > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
      > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
      > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
      > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
      > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
      >
      > with best wishes
      > Georg
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > daniel culver schrieb:
      > >
      > >
      > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
      > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
      > matter
      > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
      > fry:
      > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
      > >
      > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
      > >
      > > dear Daniel,
      > >
      > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
      > > to leave it unanswered.
      > >
      > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
      > > question for me.
      > >
      > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
      > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
      > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
      > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
      > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
      > > still mediaval.
      > >
      > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
      > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
      > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
      > > different approach to life and existence, than our
      > > intellectual thing.
      > >
      > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
      > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
      > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
      > > before that:
      > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
      > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
      > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
      > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
      > >
      > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
      > > and rallied against Vietnam.
      > >
      > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
      > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
      > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
      > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
      > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
      > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
      > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
      > > like breaking traditions
      > >
      > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
      > > we never have learned to verbalize!
      > >
      > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
      > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
      > > influence of the churches.
      > >
      > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
      > > even enters our spiritual life.
      > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
      > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
      > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
      > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
      > >
      > > What is the fault?
      > >
      > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
      > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
      > > breathing out?
      > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
      > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
      > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
      > >
      > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
      > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
      > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
      > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
      > >
      > > We have other clashes:
      > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
      > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
      > >
      > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
      > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
      > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
      > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
      > >
      > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
      > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
      > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
      > >
      > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
      > > much to do to stay alive.
      > >
      > > have my respect and Love
      > > Georg
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > daniel schrieb:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
      > right
      > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
      > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
      > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
      > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
      > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
      > making
      > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
      > > > important to the operation.
      > > >
      > > > But I digress..
      > > >
      > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
      > > > "daniel" wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
      > > > touch
      > > > > on this one a little more..lol
      > > > >
      > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
      > > > the
      > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
      > made
      > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
      > part
      > > > of
      > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
      > It had
      > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
      > > > > goal.
      > > > >
      > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
      > from
      > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
      > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
      > itself
      > > > > out of love.
      > > > >
      > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
      > > > islam
      > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
      > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
      > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
      > > > > stated. ;)
      > > > >
      > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
      > > > serious
      > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
      > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
      > > > structure
      > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
      > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
      > > > >
      > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
      > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
      > > > , Athena wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
      > there
      > > > > really
      > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
      > just
      > > > > the cover
      > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
      > > > can
      > > > > be
      > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
      > > > > backup and
      > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
      > > > > perhaps less
      > > > > > stuff to work through.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
      > > > folks
      > > > > who feel
      > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
      > > > need
      > > > > getting
      > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
      > perhaps
      > > > > this would
      > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
      > > > spirituality
      > > > > of it.
      > > > > >
      > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
      > raised
      > > > > atheist either,
      > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
      > > > be
      > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
      > > > > should be my
      > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
      > > > it's
      > > > > really
      > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
      > some who
      > > > > were raised
      > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
      > > > > obvious there
      > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
      > Pagans try
      > > > > to work
      > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
      > etc.)
      > > > > So perhaps
      > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
      > > > is
      > > > > where
      > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
      > > > > religion go with
      > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
      > > > > many ways to
      > > > > > connect.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Athena
      > > > > > --
      > > > > > www.enochian.org
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
      > > > > religion of
      > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
      > > > > (presbyterian)
      > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
      > > > how
      > > > > much
      > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
      > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
      > that
      > > > is
      > > > > not
      > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
      > exercises of
      > > > > saint
      > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
      > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
      > take on
      > > > > your
      > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
      > > > today,
      > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
      > > > closely
      > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
      > Rosicrucian's,
      > > > > both
      > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
      > Chaos
      > > > > magic
      > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
      > coupled to
      > > > > fourth
      > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
      > > magick
      > > > > > > [also
      > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
      > > > > purist
      > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > belief systems.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
      > > > influences
      > > > > and
      > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
      > are in
      > > > a
      > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
      > > > experienced
      > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
      > living
      > > > > in or
      > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
      > thinking is
      > > > > more
      > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
      > > > tools
      > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
      > like the
      > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
      > > > society,
      > > > > ones
      > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
      > > > > > > considerable
      > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
      > > > based
      > > > > on
      > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
      > > > > belief
      > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
      > working], make
      > > > > doing
      > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
      > > > have
      > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
      > > > from
      > > > > > > them.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > SRD
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
      > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
      > > > different
      > > > > > > > religion
      > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
      > > > > > > > successful?
      > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
      > those
      > > > of
      > > > > > > you
      > > > > > > > who
      > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
      > > > conversion
      > > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > more
      > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
      > > > > operation's
      > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --
      > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
      > > > > > --
      > > > > > www.enochian.org
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • daniel culver
      Thanks Georg! I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time.
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 1, 2009
        Thanks Georg!
         
        I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time. Before I joined the order,however, I was making very good spiritual progress by myself with practices of the naqshbandi and listening to lectures by the grand sheikh of the naqshbandi of america. I went once, was initiated and didn't go back. The whole time I felt like it was a cult and that the sheikh was trying to control my mind. I felt partially insane for those few days. I don't think I like the setting of the tariqa very much. I have always been self-taught and that is why the abramelin operation appeals to me. No teachers are needed but the one within yourself. However, I may start taking up the practices again before I start the operation. I just don't want to get involved in the politics in the world of islam. Therefore, I don't know how much I will get involved in the community around it if I do pick it up again.

        Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
        hi Daniel

        the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
        zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

        Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
        a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
        have their own special "menthalities" . As I tried to point
        out in the german book, they are related to the three
        Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
        astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

        Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
        the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

        My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
        Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
        belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
        and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
        have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
        much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
        teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
        the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
        by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
        more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
        precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
        meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

        Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
        started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
        300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
        for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
        feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
        advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
        and al Ghazzali.

        so long
        Do what thou wilst!

        Georg

        daniel culver schrieb:
        >
        >
        > Interesting. . I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
        > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
        > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
        > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
        > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
        > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
        > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
        > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
        > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
        > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
        >
        > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
        >
        > alright,
        >
        > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
        > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
        > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
        > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
        > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
        > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
        > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
        > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
        > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
        > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation) .
        >
        > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
        > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
        > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
        > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
        > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
        > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
        >
        > with best wishes
        > Georg
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > daniel culver schrieb:
        > >
        > >
        > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
        > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
        > matter
        > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
        > fry:
        > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
        > >
        > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
        > >
        > > dear Daniel,
        > >
        > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
        > > to leave it unanswered.
        > >
        > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
        > > question for me.
        > >
        > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
        > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
        > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
        > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
        > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
        > > still mediaval.
        > >
        > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
        > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
        > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
        > > different approach to life and existence, than our
        > > intellectual thing.
        > >
        > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
        > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
        > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
        > > before that:
        > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
        > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
        > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
        > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
        > >
        > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
        > > and rallied against Vietnam.
        > >
        > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
        > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
        > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
        > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
        > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
        > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
        > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
        > > like breaking traditions
        > >
        > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
        > > we never have learned to verbalize!
        > >
        > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
        > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
        > > influence of the churches.
        > >
        > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
        > > even enters our spiritual life.
        > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
        > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
        > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
        > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
        > >
        > > What is the fault?
        > >
        > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
        > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
        > > breathing out?
        > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
        > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
        > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
        > >
        > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
        > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
        > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
        > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
        > >
        > > We have other clashes:
        > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
        > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
        > >
        > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
        > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
        > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
        > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
        > >
        > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
        > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
        > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
        > >
        > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
        > > much to do to stay alive.
        > >
        > > have my respect and Love
        > > Georg
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > daniel schrieb:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
        > right
        > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
        > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
        > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
        > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
        > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
        > making
        > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
        > > > important to the operation.
        > > >
        > > > But I digress..
        > > >
        > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com ,
        > > > "daniel" wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
        > > > touch
        > > > > on this one a little more..lol
        > > > >
        > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
        > > > the
        > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
        > made
        > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
        > part
        > > > of
        > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
        > It had
        > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
        > > > > goal.
        > > > >
        > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
        > from
        > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
        > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
        > itself
        > > > > out of love.
        > > > >
        > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
        > > > islam
        > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
        > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
        > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
        > > > > stated. ;)
        > > > >
        > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
        > > > serious
        > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
        > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
        > > > structure
        > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
        > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
        > > > >
        > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
        > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
        > > > , Athena wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
        > there
        > > > > really
        > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
        > just
        > > > > the cover
        > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic) . You know how accurate covers
        > > > can
        > > > > be
        > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
        > > > > backup and
        > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
        > > > > perhaps less
        > > > > > stuff to work through.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
        > > > folks
        > > > > who feel
        > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
        > > > need
        > > > > getting
        > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
        > perhaps
        > > > > this would
        > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
        > > > spirituality
        > > > > of it.
        > > > > >
        > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
        > raised
        > > > > atheist either,
        > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
        > > > be
        > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
        > > > > should be my
        > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
        > > > it's
        > > > > really
        > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
        > some who
        > > > > were raised
        > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
        > > > > obvious there
        > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
        > Pagans try
        > > > > to work
        > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
        > etc.)
        > > > > So perhaps
        > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
        > > > is
        > > > > where
        > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
        > > > > religion go with
        > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
        > > > > many ways to
        > > > > > connect.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Athena
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > www.enochian. org
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
        > > > > religion of
        > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
        > > > > (presbyterian)
        > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
        > > > how
        > > > > much
        > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
        > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
        > that
        > > > is
        > > > > not
        > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
        > exercises of
        > > > > saint
        > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
        > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, "hwhydog"
        > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
        > take on
        > > > > your
        > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
        > > > today,
        > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
        > > > closely
        > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
        > Rosicrucian' s,
        > > > > both
        > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
        > Chaos
        > > > > magic
        > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
        > coupled to
        > > > > fourth
        > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
        > > magick
        > > > > > > [also
        > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science] . – Non-belief is the
        > > > > purist
        > > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > belief systems.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
        > > > influences
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
        > are in
        > > > a
        > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
        > > > experienced
        > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
        > living
        > > > > in or
        > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
        > thinking is
        > > > > more
        > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
        > > > tools
        > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
        > like the
        > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
        > > > society,
        > > > > ones
        > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
        > > > > > > considerable
        > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
        > > > based
        > > > > on
        > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
        > > > > belief
        > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
        > working], make
        > > > > doing
        > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
        > > > have
        > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
        > > > from
        > > > > > > them.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > SRD
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
        > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "daniel"
        > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
        > > > different
        > > > > > > > religion
        > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
        > > > > > > > successful?
        > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
        > those
        > > > of
        > > > > > > you
        > > > > > > > who
        > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
        > > > conversion
        > > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > more
        > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
        > > > > operation's
        > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > www.enochian. org
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        begin:vcard
        fn:Georg Dehn
        n:Dehn;Georg
        org;quoted-printable;quoted-printable:Verein f=C3=BCr Integrale =C3=96kologie, Araki Vlg und Magazin Shekinah;=C3=96ffentlichkeitsarbeit
        adr;dom:;;Theresienstr. 35;Leipzig;;04129
        email;internet:gd@...
        tel;home:0341 391 99 87
        note:www.roterdrache.org
        url:www.araki.de
        version:2.1
        end:vcard


      • daniel
        Georg- Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament so maybe
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 3, 2009
          Georg-

          Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra
          practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament
          so maybe getting into something like that can revive my old ties in
          the religion..

          Thanks
          daniel

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
          >
          > hi Daniel
          >
          > the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
          > zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.
          >
          > Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
          > a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
          > have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
          > out in the german book, they are related to the three
          > Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
          > astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.
          >
          > Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
          > the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.
          >
          > My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
          > Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
          > belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
          > and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
          > have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
          > much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
          > teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
          > the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
          > by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
          > more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
          > precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
          > meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.
          >
          > Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
          > started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
          > 300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
          > for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
          > feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
          > advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
          > and al Ghazzali.
          >
          > so long
          > Do what thou wilst!
          >
          > Georg
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > daniel culver schrieb:
          > >
          > >
          > > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam
          is
          > > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a
          foundation
          > > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying
          through
          > > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for
          me-etc..
          > > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm
          basically
          > > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers
          and
          > > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus
          and
          > > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform
          the
          > > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
          > > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
          > >
          > > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
          > >
          > > alright,
          > >
          > > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
          > > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
          > > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
          > > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
          > > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
          > > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
          > > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
          > > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
          > > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
          > > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
          > >
          > > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
          > > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
          > > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
          > > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
          > > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
          > > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
          > >
          > > with best wishes
          > > Georg
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > daniel culver schrieb:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on
          the anger
          > > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion
          doesn't
          > > matter
          > > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger
          fish to
          > > fry:
          > > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
          > > >
          > > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
          > > >
          > > > dear Daniel,
          > > >
          > > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
          > > > to leave it unanswered.
          > > >
          > > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
          > > > question for me.
          > > >
          > > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
          > > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
          > > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
          > > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big
          movement,
          > > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
          > > > still mediaval.
          > > >
          > > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
          > > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed
          since
          > > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
          > > > different approach to life and existence, than our
          > > > intellectual thing.
          > > >
          > > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
          > > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
          > > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten
          years
          > > > before that:
          > > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
          > > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
          > > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
          > > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
          > > >
          > > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear
          transports
          > > > and rallied against Vietnam.
          > > >
          > > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
          > > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
          > > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
          > > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
          > > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
          > > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
          > > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and
          not
          > > > like breaking traditions
          > > >
          > > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed,
          that
          > > > we never have learned to verbalize!
          > > >
          > > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
          > > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
          > > > influence of the churches.
          > > >
          > > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
          > > > even enters our spiritual life.
          > > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
          > > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
          > > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
          > > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
          > > >
          > > > What is the fault?
          > > >
          > > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
          > > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
          > > > breathing out?
          > > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
          > > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to
          the
          > > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
          > > >
          > > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
          > > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
          > > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are
          nothing
          > > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
          > > >
          > > > We have other clashes:
          > > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
          > > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
          > > >
          > > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
          > > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They
          perverted
          > > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
          > > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
          > > >
          > > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
          > > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
          > > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
          > > >
          > > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
          > > > much to do to stay alive.
          > > >
          > > > have my respect and Love
          > > > Georg
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > daniel schrieb:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide
          what is
          > > right
          > > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for
          intellectual
          > > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of
          islam but the
          > > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the
          same thing
          > > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm
          stuck between a
          > > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my
          mind is
          > > making
          > > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not
          completely
          > > > > important to the operation.
          > > > >
          > > > > But I digress..
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
          > > > > "daniel" wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I
          wanted to
          > > > > touch
          > > > > > on this one a little more..lol
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't
          understand
          > > > > the
          > > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest,
          it never
          > > made
          > > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and
          may be
          > > part
          > > > > of
          > > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high
          school.
          > > It had
          > > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the
          means to the
          > > > > > goal.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more
          sense to me
          > > from
          > > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and
          helping not for
          > > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the
          act of
          > > itself
          > > > > > out of love.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the
          same? Since
          > > > > islam
          > > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a
          prophet/teacher to
          > > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric
          differences in
          > > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so
          eloquently
          > > > > > stated. ;)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really
          trying to be
          > > > > serious
          > > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily
          life for this
          > > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular
          enough
          > > > > structure
          > > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced
          practicing it
          > > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep
          subconscious beliefs.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read
          the bible?
          > > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in
          some ways..
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > , Athena wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin
          is that
          > > there
          > > > > > really
          > > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are
          perhaps
          > > just
          > > > > > the cover
          > > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how
          accurate covers
          > > > > can
          > > > > > be
          > > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you
          have the
          > > > > > backup and
          > > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and
          etc. Also,
          > > > > > perhaps less
          > > > > > > stuff to work through.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for
          some modern
          > > > > folks
          > > > > > who feel
          > > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course
          this would
          > > > > need
          > > > > > getting
          > > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion
          itself, but
          > > perhaps
          > > > > > this would
          > > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
          > > > > spirituality
          > > > > > of it.
          > > > > > >
          > > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion,
          but not
          > > raised
          > > > > > atheist either,
          > > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was
          too young to
          > > > > be
          > > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this
          sort of thing
          > > > > > should be my
          > > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest
          for example,
          > > > > it's
          > > > > > really
          > > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking
          of
          > > some who
          > > > > > were raised
          > > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things
          that make it
          > > > > > obvious there
          > > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff
          that
          > > Pagans try
          > > > > > to work
          > > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing
          magic and
          > > etc.)
          > > > > > So perhaps
          > > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood
          religion since it
          > > > > is
          > > > > > where
          > > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if
          subconsciously.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your
          childhood
          > > > > > religion go with
          > > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the
          divine, and
          > > > > > many ways to
          > > > > > > connect.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Athena
          > > > > > > --
          > > > > > > www.enochian.org
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying
          to the
          > > > > > religion of
          > > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the
          church
          > > > > > (presbyterian)
          > > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the
          surroundings and
          > > > > how
          > > > > > much
          > > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-
          work in
          > > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other
          religions- but
          > > that
          > > > > is
          > > > > > not
          > > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
          > > exercises of
          > > > > > saint
          > > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily
          regimen..
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
          > > > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a
          different
          > > take on
          > > > > > your
          > > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very
          different for us
          > > > > today,
          > > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists
          were so
          > > > > closely
          > > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
          > > Rosicrucian's,
          > > > > > both
          > > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today,
          following
          > > Chaos
          > > > > > magic
          > > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
          > > coupled to
          > > > > > fourth
          > > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all
          schools of
          > > > magick
          > > > > > > > [also
          > > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-
          belief is the
          > > > > > purist
          > > > > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > belief systems.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such
          subconscious
          > > > > influences
          > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling
          that You
          > > are in
          > > > > a
          > > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched
          yet un-
          > > > > experienced
          > > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we
          are not
          > > living
          > > > > > in or
          > > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
          > > thinking is
          > > > > > more
          > > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a
          wider array of
          > > > > tools
          > > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy
          workings
          > > like the
          > > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free
          from
          > > > > society,
          > > > > > ones
          > > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual
          liaison – for a
          > > > > > > > considerable
          > > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost
          significance.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it
          has to be
          > > > > based
          > > > > > on
          > > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable.
          Freedom from
          > > > > > belief
          > > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
          > > working], make
          > > > > > doing
          > > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe
          in it and
          > > > > have
          > > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying
          any danger
          > > > > from
          > > > > > > > them.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > SRD
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
          > > > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think
          practicing a
          > > > > different
          > > > > > > > > religion
          > > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the
          operation would be
          > > > > > > > > successful?
          > > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to
          know from
          > > those
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > > you
          > > > > > > > > who
          > > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of
          that..?
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval
          times the
          > > > > conversion
          > > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > more
          > > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful
          to the
          > > > > > operation's
          > > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be
          appreciated!
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --
          > > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
          > > > > > > --
          > > > > > > www.enochian.org
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
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