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Re: Religion and Abramelin Operation

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  • daniel
    I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual understanding. I
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
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      I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
      for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
      understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
      context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
      since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
      rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
      up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
      important to the operation.

      But I digress..

      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
      >
      > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
      touch
      > on this one a little more..lol
      >
      > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
      the
      > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
      > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
      of
      > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
      > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
      > goal.
      >
      > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
      > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
      > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
      > out of love.
      >
      > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
      islam
      > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
      > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
      > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
      > stated. ;)
      >
      > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
      serious
      > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
      > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
      structure
      > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
      > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
      >
      > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
      > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
      >
      >
      > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
      > >
      > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
      > really
      > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
      > the cover
      > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
      can
      > be
      > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
      > backup and
      > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
      > perhaps less
      > > stuff to work through.
      > >
      > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
      folks
      > who feel
      > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
      need
      > getting
      > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
      > this would
      > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
      spirituality
      > of it.
      > >
      > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
      > atheist either,
      > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
      be
      > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
      > should be my
      > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
      > >
      > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
      it's
      > really
      > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
      > were raised
      > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
      > obvious there
      > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
      > to work
      > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
      > So perhaps
      > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
      is
      > where
      > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
      > >
      > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
      > religion go with
      > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
      > many ways to
      > > connect.
      > >
      > > Athena
      > > --
      > > www.enochian.org
      > >
      > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
      > > >
      > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
      > religion of
      > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
      > (presbyterian)
      > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
      how
      > much
      > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
      > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
      is
      > not
      > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
      > saint
      > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
      > > >
      > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
      > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Daniel,
      > > > >
      > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
      > your
      > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
      today,
      > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
      closely
      > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
      > both
      > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
      > magic
      > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
      > fourth
      > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
      > > > [also
      > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
      > purist
      > > > of
      > > > > belief systems.
      > > > >
      > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
      influences
      > and
      > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
      a
      > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
      > > > >
      > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
      experienced
      > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
      > in or
      > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
      > more
      > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
      tools
      > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
      > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
      society,
      > ones
      > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
      > > > considerable
      > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
      > > > >
      > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
      based
      > on
      > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
      > belief
      > > > and
      > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
      > doing
      > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
      have
      > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
      from
      > > > them.
      > > > >
      > > > > SRD
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
      > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
      different
      > > > > religion
      > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
      > > > > successful?
      > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
      of
      > > > you
      > > > > who
      > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
      conversion
      > > > was
      > > > > more
      > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
      > operation's
      > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > Odo cicle qaa
      > > --
      > > www.enochian.org
      > >
      >
    • Georg Dehn
      dear Daniel, sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling to leave it unanswered. The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        dear Daniel,

        sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
        to leave it unanswered.

        The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
        question for me.

        Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
        independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
        they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
        of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
        the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
        still mediaval.

        There have been several huge steps in culture done until
        today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
        then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
        different approach to life and existence, than our
        intellectual thing.

        I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
        believing family. This was in my thirties.
        BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
        before that:
        the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
        seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
        was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
        insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

        So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
        and rallied against Vietnam.

        I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
        I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
        tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
        hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
        disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
        older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
        I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
        like breaking traditions

        Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
        we never have learned to verbalize!

        We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
        generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
        influence of the churches.

        You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
        even enters our spiritual life.
        When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
        With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
        strength, positve waves a.s.o.
        and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

        What is the fault?

        If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
        So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
        breathing out?
        In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
        treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
        world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

        This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
        thought about religions - which even come from the same
        source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
        else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

        We have other clashes:
        If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
        problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

        The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
        of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
        lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
        knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

        Almost everything which is related to values has to be
        defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
        said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

        I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
        much to do to stay alive.

        have my respect and Love
        Georg





        daniel schrieb:
        >
        >
        > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
        > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
        > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
        > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
        > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
        > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
        > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
        > important to the operation.
        >
        > But I digress..
        >
        > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
        > touch
        > > on this one a little more..lol
        > >
        > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
        > the
        > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
        > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
        > of
        > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
        > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
        > > goal.
        > >
        > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
        > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
        > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
        > > out of love.
        > >
        > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
        > islam
        > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
        > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
        > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
        > > stated. ;)
        > >
        > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
        > serious
        > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
        > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
        > structure
        > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
        > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
        > >
        > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
        > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
        > > really
        > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
        > > the cover
        > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
        > can
        > > be
        > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
        > > backup and
        > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
        > > perhaps less
        > > > stuff to work through.
        > > >
        > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
        > folks
        > > who feel
        > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
        > need
        > > getting
        > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
        > > this would
        > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
        > spirituality
        > > of it.
        > > >
        > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
        > > atheist either,
        > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
        > be
        > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
        > > should be my
        > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
        > > >
        > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
        > it's
        > > really
        > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
        > > were raised
        > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
        > > obvious there
        > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
        > > to work
        > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
        > > So perhaps
        > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
        > is
        > > where
        > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
        > > >
        > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
        > > religion go with
        > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
        > > many ways to
        > > > connect.
        > > >
        > > > Athena
        > > > --
        > > > www.enochian.org
        > > >
        > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
        > > > >
        > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
        > > religion of
        > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
        > > (presbyterian)
        > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
        > how
        > > much
        > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
        > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
        > is
        > > not
        > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
        > > saint
        > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
        > > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Daniel,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
        > > your
        > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
        > today,
        > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
        > closely
        > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
        > > both
        > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
        > > magic
        > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
        > > fourth
        > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
        > > > > [also
        > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
        > > purist
        > > > > of
        > > > > > belief systems.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
        > influences
        > > and
        > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
        > a
        > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
        > > > > >
        > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
        > experienced
        > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
        > > in or
        > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
        > > more
        > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
        > tools
        > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
        > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
        > society,
        > > ones
        > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
        > > > > considerable
        > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
        > based
        > > on
        > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
        > > belief
        > > > > and
        > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
        > > doing
        > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
        > have
        > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
        > from
        > > > > them.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > SRD
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
        > > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
        > different
        > > > > > religion
        > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
        > > > > > successful?
        > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
        > of
        > > > > you
        > > > > > who
        > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
        > conversion
        > > > > was
        > > > > > more
        > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
        > > operation's
        > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > Odo cicle qaa
        > > > --
        > > > www.enochian.org
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
      • daniel culver
        Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn t matter very much in regards
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry: like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?

          Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
          dear Daniel,

          sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
          to leave it unanswered.

          The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
          question for me.

          Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
          independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
          they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
          of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
          the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
          still mediaval.

          There have been several huge steps in culture done until
          today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
          then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
          different approach to life and existence, than our
          intellectual thing.

          I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
          believing family. This was in my thirties.
          BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
          before that:
          the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
          seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
          was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
          insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

          So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
          and rallied against Vietnam.

          I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
          I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
          tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
          hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
          disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
          older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
          I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
          like breaking traditions

          Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
          we never have learned to verbalize!

          We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
          generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
          influence of the churches.

          You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
          even enters our spiritual life.
          When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
          With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
          strength, positve waves a.s.o.
          and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

          What is the fault?

          If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
          So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
          breathing out?
          In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
          treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
          world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

          This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
          thought about religions - which even come from the same
          source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
          else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

          We have other clashes:
          If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
          problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

          The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
          of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
          lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
          knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

          Almost everything which is related to values has to be
          defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
          said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

          I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
          much to do to stay alive.

          have my respect and Love
          Georg





          daniel schrieb:
          >
          >
          > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
          > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
          > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
          > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
          > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
          > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
          > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
          > important to the operation.
          >
          > But I digress..
          >
          > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
          > "daniel" wrote:
          > >
          > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
          > touch
          > > on this one a little more..lol
          > >
          > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
          > the
          > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
          > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
          > of
          > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
          > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
          > > goal.
          > >
          > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
          > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
          > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
          > > out of love.
          > >
          > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
          > islam
          > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
          > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
          > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
          > > stated. ;)
          > >
          > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
          > serious
          > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
          > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
          > structure
          > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
          > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
          > >
          > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
          > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > , Athena wrote:
          > > >
          > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
          > > really
          > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
          > > the cover
          > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
          > can
          > > be
          > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
          > > backup and
          > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
          > > perhaps less
          > > > stuff to work through.
          > > >
          > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
          > folks
          > > who feel
          > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
          > need
          > > getting
          > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
          > > this would
          > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
          > spirituality
          > > of it.
          > > >
          > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
          > > atheist either,
          > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
          > be
          > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
          > > should be my
          > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
          > > >
          > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
          > it's
          > > really
          > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
          > > were raised
          > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
          > > obvious there
          > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
          > > to work
          > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
          > > So perhaps
          > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
          > is
          > > where
          > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
          > > >
          > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
          > > religion go with
          > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
          > > many ways to
          > > > connect.
          > > >
          > > > Athena
          > > > --
          > > > www.enochian.org
          > > >
          > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
          > > > >
          > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
          > > religion of
          > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
          > > (presbyterian)
          > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
          > how
          > > much
          > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
          > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
          > is
          > > not
          > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
          > > saint
          > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hi Daniel,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
          > > your
          > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
          > today,
          > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
          > closely
          > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
          > > both
          > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
          > > magic
          > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
          > > fourth
          > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
          > > > > [also
          > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
          > > purist
          > > > > of
          > > > > > belief systems.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
          > influences
          > > and
          > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
          > a
          > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
          > > > > >
          > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
          > experienced
          > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
          > > in or
          > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
          > > more
          > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
          > tools
          > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
          > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
          > society,
          > > ones
          > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
          > > > > considerable
          > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
          > based
          > > on
          > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
          > > belief
          > > > > and
          > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
          > > doing
          > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
          > have
          > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
          > from
          > > > > them.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > SRD
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
          > different
          > > > > > religion
          > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
          > > > > > successful?
          > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
          > of
          > > > > you
          > > > > > who
          > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
          > conversion
          > > > > was
          > > > > > more
          > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
          > > operation's
          > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > > Odo cicle qaa
          > > > --
          > > > www.enochian.org
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >

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        • Georg Dehn
          alright, You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and hints. The most radical he
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            alright,

            You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
            the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
            hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
            and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
            (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
            -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
            For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
            which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
            change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
            too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

            Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
            line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
            cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
            of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
            traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
            fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

            with best wishes
            Georg








            daniel culver schrieb:
            >
            >
            > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
            > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
            > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
            > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
            >
            > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
            >
            > dear Daniel,
            >
            > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
            > to leave it unanswered.
            >
            > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
            > question for me.
            >
            > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
            > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
            > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
            > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
            > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
            > still mediaval.
            >
            > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
            > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
            > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
            > different approach to life and existence, than our
            > intellectual thing.
            >
            > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
            > believing family. This was in my thirties.
            > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
            > before that:
            > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
            > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
            > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
            > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
            >
            > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
            > and rallied against Vietnam.
            >
            > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
            > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
            > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
            > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
            > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
            > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
            > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
            > like breaking traditions
            >
            > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
            > we never have learned to verbalize!
            >
            > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
            > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
            > influence of the churches.
            >
            > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
            > even enters our spiritual life.
            > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
            > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
            > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
            > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
            >
            > What is the fault?
            >
            > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
            > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
            > breathing out?
            > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
            > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
            > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
            >
            > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
            > thought about religions - which even come from the same
            > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
            > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
            >
            > We have other clashes:
            > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
            > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
            >
            > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
            > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
            > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
            > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
            >
            > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
            > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
            > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
            >
            > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
            > much to do to stay alive.
            >
            > have my respect and Love
            > Georg
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > daniel schrieb:
            > >
            > >
            > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
            > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
            > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
            > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
            > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
            > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
            > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
            > > important to the operation.
            > >
            > > But I digress..
            > >
            > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
            > > "daniel" wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
            > > touch
            > > > on this one a little more..lol
            > > >
            > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
            > > the
            > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
            > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
            > > of
            > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
            > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
            > > > goal.
            > > >
            > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
            > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
            > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
            > > > out of love.
            > > >
            > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
            > > islam
            > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
            > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
            > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
            > > > stated. ;)
            > > >
            > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
            > > serious
            > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
            > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
            > > structure
            > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
            > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
            > > >
            > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
            > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
            > > , Athena wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
            > > > really
            > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
            > > > the cover
            > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
            > > can
            > > > be
            > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
            > > > backup and
            > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
            > > > perhaps less
            > > > > stuff to work through.
            > > > >
            > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
            > > folks
            > > > who feel
            > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
            > > need
            > > > getting
            > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
            > > > this would
            > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
            > > spirituality
            > > > of it.
            > > > >
            > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
            > > > atheist either,
            > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
            > > be
            > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
            > > > should be my
            > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
            > > > >
            > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
            > > it's
            > > > really
            > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
            > > > were raised
            > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
            > > > obvious there
            > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
            > > > to work
            > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
            > > > So perhaps
            > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
            > > is
            > > > where
            > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
            > > > >
            > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
            > > > religion go with
            > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
            > > > many ways to
            > > > > connect.
            > > > >
            > > > > Athena
            > > > > --
            > > > > www.enochian.org
            > > > >
            > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
            > > > religion of
            > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
            > > > (presbyterian)
            > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
            > > how
            > > > much
            > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
            > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
            > > is
            > > > not
            > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
            > > > saint
            > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
            > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
            > > > your
            > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
            > > today,
            > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
            > > closely
            > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
            > > > both
            > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
            > > > magic
            > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
            > > > fourth
            > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
            > magick
            > > > > > [also
            > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
            > > > purist
            > > > > > of
            > > > > > > belief systems.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
            > > influences
            > > > and
            > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
            > > a
            > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
            > > experienced
            > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
            > > > in or
            > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
            > > > more
            > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
            > > tools
            > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
            > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
            > > society,
            > > > ones
            > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
            > > > > > considerable
            > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
            > > based
            > > > on
            > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
            > > > belief
            > > > > > and
            > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
            > > > doing
            > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
            > > have
            > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
            > > from
            > > > > > them.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > SRD
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
            > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
            > > different
            > > > > > > religion
            > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
            > > > > > > successful?
            > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
            > > of
            > > > > > you
            > > > > > > who
            > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
            > > conversion
            > > > > > was
            > > > > > > more
            > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
            > > > operation's
            > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --
            > > > > Odo cicle qaa
            > > > > --
            > > > > www.enochian.org
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • daniel culver
            Interesting.. I think the main reason I m more inclined to islam is because I just don t know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc.. Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
               
              Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
              alright,

              You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
              the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
              hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
              and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
              (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
              -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
              For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
              which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
              change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
              too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

              Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
              line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
              cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
              of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
              traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
              fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

              with best wishes
              Georg








              daniel culver schrieb:
              >
              >
              > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
              > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
              > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
              > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
              >
              > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
              >
              > dear Daniel,
              >
              > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
              > to leave it unanswered.
              >
              > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
              > question for me.
              >
              > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
              > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
              > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
              > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
              > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
              > still mediaval.
              >
              > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
              > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
              > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
              > different approach to life and existence, than our
              > intellectual thing.
              >
              > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
              > believing family. This was in my thirties.
              > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
              > before that:
              > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
              > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
              > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
              > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
              >
              > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
              > and rallied against Vietnam.
              >
              > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
              > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
              > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
              > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
              > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
              > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
              > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
              > like breaking traditions
              >
              > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
              > we never have learned to verbalize!
              >
              > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
              > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
              > influence of the churches.
              >
              > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
              > even enters our spiritual life.
              > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
              > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
              > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
              > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
              >
              > What is the fault?
              >
              > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
              > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
              > breathing out?
              > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
              > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
              > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
              >
              > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
              > thought about religions - which even come from the same
              > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
              > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
              >
              > We have other clashes:
              > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
              > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
              >
              > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
              > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
              > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
              > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
              >
              > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
              > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
              > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
              >
              > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
              > much to do to stay alive.
              >
              > have my respect and Love
              > Georg
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > daniel schrieb:
              > >
              > >
              > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
              > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
              > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
              > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
              > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
              > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
              > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
              > > important to the operation.
              > >
              > > But I digress..
              > >
              > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
              > > "daniel" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
              > > touch
              > > > on this one a little more..lol
              > > >
              > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
              > > the
              > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
              > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
              > > of
              > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
              > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
              > > > goal.
              > > >
              > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
              > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
              > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
              > > > out of love.
              > > >
              > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
              > > islam
              > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
              > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
              > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
              > > > stated. ;)
              > > >
              > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
              > > serious
              > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
              > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
              > > structure
              > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
              > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
              > > >
              > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
              > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
              > > , Athena wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
              > > > really
              > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
              > > > the cover
              > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
              > > can
              > > > be
              > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
              > > > backup and
              > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
              > > > perhaps less
              > > > > stuff to work through.
              > > > >
              > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
              > > folks
              > > > who feel
              > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
              > > need
              > > > getting
              > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
              > > > this would
              > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
              > > spirituality
              > > > of it.
              > > > >
              > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
              > > > atheist either,
              > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
              > > be
              > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
              > > > should be my
              > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
              > > it's
              > > > really
              > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
              > > > were raised
              > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
              > > > obvious there
              > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
              > > > to work
              > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
              > > > So perhaps
              > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
              > > is
              > > > where
              > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
              > > > >
              > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
              > > > religion go with
              > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
              > > > many ways to
              > > > > connect.
              > > > >
              > > > > Athena
              > > > > --
              > > > > www.enochian.org
              > > > >
              > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
              > > > religion of
              > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
              > > > (presbyterian)
              > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
              > > how
              > > > much
              > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
              > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
              > > is
              > > > not
              > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
              > > > saint
              > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
              > > > your
              > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
              > > today,
              > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
              > > closely
              > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
              > > > both
              > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
              > > > magic
              > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
              > > > fourth
              > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
              > magick
              > > > > > [also
              > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
              > > > purist
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > > belief systems.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
              > > influences
              > > > and
              > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
              > > a
              > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
              > > experienced
              > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
              > > > in or
              > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
              > > > more
              > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
              > > tools
              > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
              > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
              > > society,
              > > > ones
              > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
              > > > > > considerable
              > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
              > > based
              > > > on
              > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
              > > > belief
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
              > > > doing
              > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
              > > have
              > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
              > > from
              > > > > > them.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > SRD
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
              > > different
              > > > > > > religion
              > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
              > > > > > > successful?
              > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
              > > of
              > > > > > you
              > > > > > > who
              > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
              > > conversion
              > > > > > was
              > > > > > > more
              > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
              > > > operation's
              > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --
              > > > > Odo cicle qaa
              > > > > --
              > > > > www.enochian.org
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

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            • Georg Dehn
              hi Daniel the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah. Choosing a religion is a very private thing.
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 31, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                hi Daniel

                the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                out in the german book, they are related to the three
                Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                and al Ghazzali.

                so long
                Do what thou wilst!

                Georg






                daniel culver schrieb:
                >
                >
                > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                >
                > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                >
                > alright,
                >
                > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                >
                > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                >
                > with best wishes
                > Georg
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > daniel culver schrieb:
                > >
                > >
                > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                > matter
                > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                > fry:
                > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                > >
                > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                > >
                > > dear Daniel,
                > >
                > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                > > to leave it unanswered.
                > >
                > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                > > question for me.
                > >
                > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                > > still mediaval.
                > >
                > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                > > intellectual thing.
                > >
                > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                > > before that:
                > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                > >
                > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                > >
                > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                > > like breaking traditions
                > >
                > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                > >
                > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                > > influence of the churches.
                > >
                > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                > > even enters our spiritual life.
                > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                > >
                > > What is the fault?
                > >
                > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                > > breathing out?
                > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                > >
                > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                > >
                > > We have other clashes:
                > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                > >
                > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                > >
                > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                > >
                > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                > > much to do to stay alive.
                > >
                > > have my respect and Love
                > > Georg
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > daniel schrieb:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                > right
                > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                > making
                > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                > > > important to the operation.
                > > >
                > > > But I digress..
                > > >
                > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                > > > "daniel" wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                > > > touch
                > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                > > > >
                > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                > > > the
                > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                > made
                > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                > part
                > > > of
                > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                > It had
                > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                > > > > goal.
                > > > >
                > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                > from
                > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                > itself
                > > > > out of love.
                > > > >
                > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                > > > islam
                > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                > > > > stated. ;)
                > > > >
                > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                > > > serious
                > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                > > > structure
                > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                > > > >
                > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                > > > , Athena wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                > there
                > > > > really
                > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                > just
                > > > > the cover
                > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                > > > can
                > > > > be
                > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                > > > > backup and
                > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                > > > > perhaps less
                > > > > > stuff to work through.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                > > > folks
                > > > > who feel
                > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                > > > need
                > > > > getting
                > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                > perhaps
                > > > > this would
                > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                > > > spirituality
                > > > > of it.
                > > > > >
                > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                > raised
                > > > > atheist either,
                > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                > > > be
                > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                > > > > should be my
                > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                > > > it's
                > > > > really
                > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                > some who
                > > > > were raised
                > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                > > > > obvious there
                > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                > Pagans try
                > > > > to work
                > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                > etc.)
                > > > > So perhaps
                > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                > > > is
                > > > > where
                > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                > > > > religion go with
                > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                > > > > many ways to
                > > > > > connect.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Athena
                > > > > > --
                > > > > > www.enochian.org
                > > > > >
                > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                > > > > religion of
                > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                > > > > (presbyterian)
                > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                > > > how
                > > > > much
                > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                > that
                > > > is
                > > > > not
                > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                > exercises of
                > > > > saint
                > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                > > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                > take on
                > > > > your
                > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                > > > today,
                > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                > > > closely
                > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                > Rosicrucian's,
                > > > > both
                > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                > Chaos
                > > > > magic
                > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                > coupled to
                > > > > fourth
                > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                > > magick
                > > > > > > [also
                > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                > > > > purist
                > > > > > > of
                > > > > > > > belief systems.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                > > > influences
                > > > > and
                > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                > are in
                > > > a
                > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                > > > experienced
                > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                > living
                > > > > in or
                > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                > thinking is
                > > > > more
                > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                > > > tools
                > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                > like the
                > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                > > > society,
                > > > > ones
                > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                > > > > > > considerable
                > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                > > > based
                > > > > on
                > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                > > > > belief
                > > > > > > and
                > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                > working], make
                > > > > doing
                > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                > > > have
                > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                > > > from
                > > > > > > them.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > SRD
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                > > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                > > > different
                > > > > > > > religion
                > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                > > > > > > > successful?
                > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                > those
                > > > of
                > > > > > > you
                > > > > > > > who
                > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                > > > conversion
                > > > > > > was
                > > > > > > > more
                > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                > > > > operation's
                > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --
                > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                > > > > > --
                > > > > > www.enochian.org
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • daniel culver
                Thanks Georg! I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time.
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 1, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Georg!
                   
                  I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time. Before I joined the order,however, I was making very good spiritual progress by myself with practices of the naqshbandi and listening to lectures by the grand sheikh of the naqshbandi of america. I went once, was initiated and didn't go back. The whole time I felt like it was a cult and that the sheikh was trying to control my mind. I felt partially insane for those few days. I don't think I like the setting of the tariqa very much. I have always been self-taught and that is why the abramelin operation appeals to me. No teachers are needed but the one within yourself. However, I may start taking up the practices again before I start the operation. I just don't want to get involved in the politics in the world of islam. Therefore, I don't know how much I will get involved in the community around it if I do pick it up again.

                  Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                  hi Daniel

                  the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                  zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                  Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                  a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                  have their own special "menthalities" . As I tried to point
                  out in the german book, they are related to the three
                  Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                  astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                  Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                  the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                  My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                  Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                  belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                  and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                  have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                  much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                  teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                  the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                  by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                  more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                  precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                  meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                  Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                  started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                  300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                  for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                  feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                  advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                  and al Ghazzali.

                  so long
                  Do what thou wilst!

                  Georg

                  daniel culver schrieb:
                  >
                  >
                  > Interesting. . I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                  > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                  > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                  > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                  > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                  > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                  > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                  > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                  > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                  > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                  >
                  > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                  >
                  > alright,
                  >
                  > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                  > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                  > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                  > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                  > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                  > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                  > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                  > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                  > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                  > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation) .
                  >
                  > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                  > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                  > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                  > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                  > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                  > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                  >
                  > with best wishes
                  > Georg
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > daniel culver schrieb:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                  > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                  > matter
                  > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                  > fry:
                  > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                  > >
                  > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                  > >
                  > > dear Daniel,
                  > >
                  > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                  > > to leave it unanswered.
                  > >
                  > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                  > > question for me.
                  > >
                  > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                  > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                  > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                  > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                  > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                  > > still mediaval.
                  > >
                  > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                  > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                  > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                  > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                  > > intellectual thing.
                  > >
                  > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                  > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                  > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                  > > before that:
                  > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                  > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                  > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                  > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                  > >
                  > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                  > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                  > >
                  > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                  > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                  > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                  > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                  > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                  > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                  > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                  > > like breaking traditions
                  > >
                  > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                  > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                  > >
                  > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                  > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                  > > influence of the churches.
                  > >
                  > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                  > > even enters our spiritual life.
                  > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                  > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                  > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                  > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                  > >
                  > > What is the fault?
                  > >
                  > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                  > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                  > > breathing out?
                  > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                  > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                  > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                  > >
                  > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                  > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                  > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                  > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                  > >
                  > > We have other clashes:
                  > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                  > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                  > >
                  > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                  > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                  > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                  > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                  > >
                  > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                  > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                  > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                  > >
                  > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                  > > much to do to stay alive.
                  > >
                  > > have my respect and Love
                  > > Georg
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > daniel schrieb:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                  > right
                  > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                  > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                  > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                  > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                  > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                  > making
                  > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                  > > > important to the operation.
                  > > >
                  > > > But I digress..
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com ,
                  > > > "daniel" wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                  > > > touch
                  > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                  > > > the
                  > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                  > made
                  > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                  > part
                  > > > of
                  > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                  > It had
                  > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                  > > > > goal.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                  > from
                  > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                  > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                  > itself
                  > > > > out of love.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                  > > > islam
                  > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                  > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                  > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                  > > > > stated. ;)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                  > > > serious
                  > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                  > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                  > > > structure
                  > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                  > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                  > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                  > > > , Athena wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                  > there
                  > > > > really
                  > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                  > just
                  > > > > the cover
                  > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic) . You know how accurate covers
                  > > > can
                  > > > > be
                  > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                  > > > > backup and
                  > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                  > > > > perhaps less
                  > > > > > stuff to work through.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                  > > > folks
                  > > > > who feel
                  > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                  > > > need
                  > > > > getting
                  > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                  > perhaps
                  > > > > this would
                  > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                  > > > spirituality
                  > > > > of it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                  > raised
                  > > > > atheist either,
                  > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                  > > > be
                  > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                  > > > > should be my
                  > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                  > > > it's
                  > > > > really
                  > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                  > some who
                  > > > > were raised
                  > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                  > > > > obvious there
                  > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                  > Pagans try
                  > > > > to work
                  > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                  > etc.)
                  > > > > So perhaps
                  > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                  > > > is
                  > > > > where
                  > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                  > > > > religion go with
                  > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                  > > > > many ways to
                  > > > > > connect.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Athena
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > > www.enochian. org
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                  > > > > religion of
                  > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                  > > > > (presbyterian)
                  > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                  > > > how
                  > > > > much
                  > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                  > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                  > that
                  > > > is
                  > > > > not
                  > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                  > exercises of
                  > > > > saint
                  > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                  > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, "hwhydog"
                  > > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                  > take on
                  > > > > your
                  > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                  > > > today,
                  > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                  > > > closely
                  > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                  > Rosicrucian' s,
                  > > > > both
                  > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                  > Chaos
                  > > > > magic
                  > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                  > coupled to
                  > > > > fourth
                  > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                  > > magick
                  > > > > > > [also
                  > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science] . – Non-belief is the
                  > > > > purist
                  > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > belief systems.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                  > > > influences
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                  > are in
                  > > > a
                  > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                  > > > experienced
                  > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                  > living
                  > > > > in or
                  > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                  > thinking is
                  > > > > more
                  > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                  > > > tools
                  > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                  > like the
                  > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                  > > > society,
                  > > > > ones
                  > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                  > > > > > > considerable
                  > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                  > > > based
                  > > > > on
                  > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                  > > > > belief
                  > > > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                  > working], make
                  > > > > doing
                  > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                  > > > have
                  > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                  > > > from
                  > > > > > > them.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > SRD
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                  > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "daniel"
                  > > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                  > > > different
                  > > > > > > > religion
                  > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                  > > > > > > > successful?
                  > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                  > those
                  > > > of
                  > > > > > > you
                  > > > > > > > who
                  > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                  > > > conversion
                  > > > > > > was
                  > > > > > > > more
                  > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                  > > > > operation's
                  > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > > www.enochian. org
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  begin:vcard
                  fn:Georg Dehn
                  n:Dehn;Georg
                  org;quoted-printable;quoted-printable:Verein f=C3=BCr Integrale =C3=96kologie, Araki Vlg und Magazin Shekinah;=C3=96ffentlichkeitsarbeit
                  adr;dom:;;Theresienstr. 35;Leipzig;;04129
                  email;internet:gd@...
                  tel;home:0341 391 99 87
                  note:www.roterdrache.org
                  url:www.araki.de
                  version:2.1
                  end:vcard


                • daniel
                  Georg- Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament so maybe
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Georg-

                    Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra
                    practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament
                    so maybe getting into something like that can revive my old ties in
                    the religion..

                    Thanks
                    daniel

                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > hi Daniel
                    >
                    > the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                    > zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.
                    >
                    > Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                    > a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                    > have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                    > out in the german book, they are related to the three
                    > Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                    > astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.
                    >
                    > Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                    > the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.
                    >
                    > My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                    > Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                    > belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                    > and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                    > have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                    > much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                    > teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                    > the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                    > by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                    > more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                    > precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                    > meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.
                    >
                    > Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                    > started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                    > 300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                    > for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                    > feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                    > advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                    > and al Ghazzali.
                    >
                    > so long
                    > Do what thou wilst!
                    >
                    > Georg
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > daniel culver schrieb:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam
                    is
                    > > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a
                    foundation
                    > > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying
                    through
                    > > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for
                    me-etc..
                    > > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm
                    basically
                    > > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers
                    and
                    > > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus
                    and
                    > > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform
                    the
                    > > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                    > > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                    > >
                    > > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                    > >
                    > > alright,
                    > >
                    > > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                    > > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                    > > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                    > > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                    > > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                    > > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                    > > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                    > > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                    > > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                    > > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                    > >
                    > > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                    > > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                    > > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                    > > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                    > > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                    > > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                    > >
                    > > with best wishes
                    > > Georg
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > daniel culver schrieb:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on
                    the anger
                    > > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion
                    doesn't
                    > > matter
                    > > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger
                    fish to
                    > > fry:
                    > > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                    > > >
                    > > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > dear Daniel,
                    > > >
                    > > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                    > > > to leave it unanswered.
                    > > >
                    > > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                    > > > question for me.
                    > > >
                    > > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                    > > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                    > > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                    > > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big
                    movement,
                    > > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                    > > > still mediaval.
                    > > >
                    > > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                    > > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed
                    since
                    > > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                    > > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                    > > > intellectual thing.
                    > > >
                    > > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                    > > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                    > > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten
                    years
                    > > > before that:
                    > > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                    > > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                    > > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                    > > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                    > > >
                    > > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear
                    transports
                    > > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                    > > >
                    > > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                    > > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                    > > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                    > > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                    > > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                    > > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                    > > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and
                    not
                    > > > like breaking traditions
                    > > >
                    > > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed,
                    that
                    > > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                    > > >
                    > > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                    > > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                    > > > influence of the churches.
                    > > >
                    > > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                    > > > even enters our spiritual life.
                    > > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                    > > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                    > > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                    > > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                    > > >
                    > > > What is the fault?
                    > > >
                    > > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                    > > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                    > > > breathing out?
                    > > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                    > > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to
                    the
                    > > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                    > > >
                    > > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                    > > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                    > > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are
                    nothing
                    > > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                    > > >
                    > > > We have other clashes:
                    > > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                    > > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                    > > >
                    > > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                    > > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They
                    perverted
                    > > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                    > > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                    > > >
                    > > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                    > > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                    > > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                    > > >
                    > > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                    > > > much to do to stay alive.
                    > > >
                    > > > have my respect and Love
                    > > > Georg
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > daniel schrieb:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide
                    what is
                    > > right
                    > > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for
                    intellectual
                    > > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of
                    islam but the
                    > > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the
                    same thing
                    > > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm
                    stuck between a
                    > > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my
                    mind is
                    > > making
                    > > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not
                    completely
                    > > > > important to the operation.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But I digress..
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                    > > > > "daniel" wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I
                    wanted to
                    > > > > touch
                    > > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't
                    understand
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest,
                    it never
                    > > made
                    > > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and
                    may be
                    > > part
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high
                    school.
                    > > It had
                    > > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the
                    means to the
                    > > > > > goal.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more
                    sense to me
                    > > from
                    > > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and
                    helping not for
                    > > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the
                    act of
                    > > itself
                    > > > > > out of love.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the
                    same? Since
                    > > > > islam
                    > > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a
                    prophet/teacher to
                    > > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric
                    differences in
                    > > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so
                    eloquently
                    > > > > > stated. ;)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really
                    trying to be
                    > > > > serious
                    > > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily
                    life for this
                    > > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular
                    enough
                    > > > > structure
                    > > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced
                    practicing it
                    > > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep
                    subconscious beliefs.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read
                    the bible?
                    > > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in
                    some ways..
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > , Athena wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin
                    is that
                    > > there
                    > > > > > really
                    > > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are
                    perhaps
                    > > just
                    > > > > > the cover
                    > > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how
                    accurate covers
                    > > > > can
                    > > > > > be
                    > > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you
                    have the
                    > > > > > backup and
                    > > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and
                    etc. Also,
                    > > > > > perhaps less
                    > > > > > > stuff to work through.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for
                    some modern
                    > > > > folks
                    > > > > > who feel
                    > > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course
                    this would
                    > > > > need
                    > > > > > getting
                    > > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion
                    itself, but
                    > > perhaps
                    > > > > > this would
                    > > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                    > > > > spirituality
                    > > > > > of it.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion,
                    but not
                    > > raised
                    > > > > > atheist either,
                    > > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was
                    too young to
                    > > > > be
                    > > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this
                    sort of thing
                    > > > > > should be my
                    > > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest
                    for example,
                    > > > > it's
                    > > > > > really
                    > > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking
                    of
                    > > some who
                    > > > > > were raised
                    > > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things
                    that make it
                    > > > > > obvious there
                    > > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff
                    that
                    > > Pagans try
                    > > > > > to work
                    > > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing
                    magic and
                    > > etc.)
                    > > > > > So perhaps
                    > > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood
                    religion since it
                    > > > > is
                    > > > > > where
                    > > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if
                    subconsciously.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your
                    childhood
                    > > > > > religion go with
                    > > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the
                    divine, and
                    > > > > > many ways to
                    > > > > > > connect.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Athena
                    > > > > > > --
                    > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying
                    to the
                    > > > > > religion of
                    > > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the
                    church
                    > > > > > (presbyterian)
                    > > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the
                    surroundings and
                    > > > > how
                    > > > > > much
                    > > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-
                    work in
                    > > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other
                    religions- but
                    > > that
                    > > > > is
                    > > > > > not
                    > > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                    > > exercises of
                    > > > > > saint
                    > > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily
                    regimen..
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                    > > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a
                    different
                    > > take on
                    > > > > > your
                    > > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very
                    different for us
                    > > > > today,
                    > > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists
                    were so
                    > > > > closely
                    > > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                    > > Rosicrucian's,
                    > > > > > both
                    > > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today,
                    following
                    > > Chaos
                    > > > > > magic
                    > > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                    > > coupled to
                    > > > > > fourth
                    > > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all
                    schools of
                    > > > magick
                    > > > > > > > [also
                    > > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-
                    belief is the
                    > > > > > purist
                    > > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > > belief systems.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such
                    subconscious
                    > > > > influences
                    > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling
                    that You
                    > > are in
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched
                    yet un-
                    > > > > experienced
                    > > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we
                    are not
                    > > living
                    > > > > > in or
                    > > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                    > > thinking is
                    > > > > > more
                    > > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a
                    wider array of
                    > > > > tools
                    > > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy
                    workings
                    > > like the
                    > > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free
                    from
                    > > > > society,
                    > > > > > ones
                    > > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual
                    liaison – for a
                    > > > > > > > considerable
                    > > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost
                    significance.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it
                    has to be
                    > > > > based
                    > > > > > on
                    > > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable.
                    Freedom from
                    > > > > > belief
                    > > > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                    > > working], make
                    > > > > > doing
                    > > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe
                    in it and
                    > > > > have
                    > > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying
                    any danger
                    > > > > from
                    > > > > > > > them.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > SRD
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                    > > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think
                    practicing a
                    > > > > different
                    > > > > > > > > religion
                    > > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the
                    operation would be
                    > > > > > > > > successful?
                    > > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to
                    know from
                    > > those
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > you
                    > > > > > > > > who
                    > > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of
                    that..?
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval
                    times the
                    > > > > conversion
                    > > > > > > > was
                    > > > > > > > > more
                    > > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful
                    to the
                    > > > > > operation's
                    > > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be
                    appreciated!
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --
                    > > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                    > > > > > > --
                    > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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