Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Religion and Abramelin Operation

Expand Messages
  • daniel
    Since my other thread hasn t spurred much interest, I wanted to touch on this one a little more..lol I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don t
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
      Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to touch
      on this one a little more..lol

      I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand the
      point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
      much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part of
      the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
      nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
      goal.

      Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
      the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
      Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
      out of love.

      So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since islam
      accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
      humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
      doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
      stated. ;)

      Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be serious
      in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
      operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough structure
      to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
      would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.

      For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
      This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..


      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
      >
      > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
      really
      > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
      the cover
      > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers can
      be
      > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
      backup and
      > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
      perhaps less
      > stuff to work through.
      >
      > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern folks
      who feel
      > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would need
      getting
      > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
      this would
      > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the spirituality
      of it.
      >
      > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
      atheist either,
      > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to be
      > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
      should be my
      > choice when I was old enough to decide.
      >
      > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example, it's
      really
      > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
      were raised
      > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
      obvious there
      > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
      to work
      > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
      So perhaps
      > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it is
      where
      > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
      >
      > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
      religion go with
      > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
      many ways to
      > connect.
      >
      > Athena
      > --
      > www.enochian.org
      >
      > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
      > >
      > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
      religion of
      > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
      (presbyterian)
      > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how
      much
      > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
      > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is
      not
      > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
      saint
      > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
      > >
      > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
      40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
      > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Daniel,
      > > >
      > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
      your
      > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
      > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
      > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
      both
      > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
      magic
      > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
      fourth
      > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
      > > [also
      > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
      purist
      > > of
      > > > belief systems.
      > > >
      > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences
      and
      > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
      > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
      > > >
      > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
      > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
      in or
      > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
      more
      > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
      > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
      > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society,
      ones
      > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
      > > considerable
      > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
      > > >
      > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based
      on
      > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
      belief
      > > and
      > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
      doing
      > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
      > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
      > > them.
      > > >
      > > > SRD
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
      40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
      > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
      > > > religion
      > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
      > > > successful?
      > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
      > > you
      > > > who
      > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
      > > > >
      > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
      > > was
      > > > more
      > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
      operation's
      > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
      > > > >
      > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Odo cicle qaa
      > --
      > www.enochian.org
      >
    • daniel
      I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual understanding. I
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
        I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
        for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
        understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
        context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
        since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
        rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
        up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
        important to the operation.

        But I digress..

        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
        >
        > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
        touch
        > on this one a little more..lol
        >
        > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
        the
        > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
        > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
        of
        > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
        > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
        > goal.
        >
        > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
        > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
        > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
        > out of love.
        >
        > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
        islam
        > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
        > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
        > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
        > stated. ;)
        >
        > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
        serious
        > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
        > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
        structure
        > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
        > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
        >
        > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
        > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
        >
        >
        > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
        > >
        > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
        > really
        > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
        > the cover
        > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
        can
        > be
        > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
        > backup and
        > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
        > perhaps less
        > > stuff to work through.
        > >
        > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
        folks
        > who feel
        > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
        need
        > getting
        > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
        > this would
        > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
        spirituality
        > of it.
        > >
        > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
        > atheist either,
        > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
        be
        > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
        > should be my
        > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
        > >
        > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
        it's
        > really
        > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
        > were raised
        > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
        > obvious there
        > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
        > to work
        > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
        > So perhaps
        > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
        is
        > where
        > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
        > >
        > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
        > religion go with
        > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
        > many ways to
        > > connect.
        > >
        > > Athena
        > > --
        > > www.enochian.org
        > >
        > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
        > > >
        > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
        > religion of
        > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
        > (presbyterian)
        > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
        how
        > much
        > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
        > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
        is
        > not
        > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
        > saint
        > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
        > > >
        > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
        > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
        > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Daniel,
        > > > >
        > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
        > your
        > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
        today,
        > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
        closely
        > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
        > both
        > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
        > magic
        > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
        > fourth
        > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
        > > > [also
        > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
        > purist
        > > > of
        > > > > belief systems.
        > > > >
        > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
        influences
        > and
        > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
        a
        > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
        > > > >
        > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
        experienced
        > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
        > in or
        > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
        > more
        > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
        tools
        > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
        > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
        society,
        > ones
        > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
        > > > considerable
        > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
        > > > >
        > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
        based
        > on
        > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
        > belief
        > > > and
        > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
        > doing
        > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
        have
        > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
        from
        > > > them.
        > > > >
        > > > > SRD
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
        > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
        > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
        different
        > > > > religion
        > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
        > > > > successful?
        > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
        of
        > > > you
        > > > > who
        > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
        conversion
        > > > was
        > > > > more
        > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
        > operation's
        > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Odo cicle qaa
        > > --
        > > www.enochian.org
        > >
        >
      • Georg Dehn
        dear Daniel, sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling to leave it unanswered. The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
          dear Daniel,

          sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
          to leave it unanswered.

          The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
          question for me.

          Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
          independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
          they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
          of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
          the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
          still mediaval.

          There have been several huge steps in culture done until
          today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
          then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
          different approach to life and existence, than our
          intellectual thing.

          I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
          believing family. This was in my thirties.
          BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
          before that:
          the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
          seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
          was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
          insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

          So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
          and rallied against Vietnam.

          I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
          I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
          tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
          hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
          disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
          older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
          I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
          like breaking traditions

          Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
          we never have learned to verbalize!

          We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
          generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
          influence of the churches.

          You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
          even enters our spiritual life.
          When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
          With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
          strength, positve waves a.s.o.
          and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

          What is the fault?

          If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
          So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
          breathing out?
          In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
          treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
          world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

          This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
          thought about religions - which even come from the same
          source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
          else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

          We have other clashes:
          If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
          problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

          The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
          of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
          lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
          knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

          Almost everything which is related to values has to be
          defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
          said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

          I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
          much to do to stay alive.

          have my respect and Love
          Georg





          daniel schrieb:
          >
          >
          > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
          > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
          > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
          > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
          > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
          > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
          > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
          > important to the operation.
          >
          > But I digress..
          >
          > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
          > touch
          > > on this one a little more..lol
          > >
          > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
          > the
          > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
          > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
          > of
          > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
          > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
          > > goal.
          > >
          > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
          > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
          > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
          > > out of love.
          > >
          > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
          > islam
          > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
          > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
          > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
          > > stated. ;)
          > >
          > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
          > serious
          > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
          > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
          > structure
          > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
          > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
          > >
          > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
          > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
          > > really
          > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
          > > the cover
          > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
          > can
          > > be
          > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
          > > backup and
          > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
          > > perhaps less
          > > > stuff to work through.
          > > >
          > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
          > folks
          > > who feel
          > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
          > need
          > > getting
          > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
          > > this would
          > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
          > spirituality
          > > of it.
          > > >
          > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
          > > atheist either,
          > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
          > be
          > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
          > > should be my
          > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
          > > >
          > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
          > it's
          > > really
          > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
          > > were raised
          > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
          > > obvious there
          > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
          > > to work
          > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
          > > So perhaps
          > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
          > is
          > > where
          > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
          > > >
          > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
          > > religion go with
          > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
          > > many ways to
          > > > connect.
          > > >
          > > > Athena
          > > > --
          > > > www.enochian.org
          > > >
          > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
          > > > >
          > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
          > > religion of
          > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
          > > (presbyterian)
          > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
          > how
          > > much
          > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
          > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
          > is
          > > not
          > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
          > > saint
          > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
          > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
          > > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hi Daniel,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
          > > your
          > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
          > today,
          > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
          > closely
          > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
          > > both
          > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
          > > magic
          > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
          > > fourth
          > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
          > > > > [also
          > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
          > > purist
          > > > > of
          > > > > > belief systems.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
          > influences
          > > and
          > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
          > a
          > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
          > > > > >
          > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
          > experienced
          > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
          > > in or
          > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
          > > more
          > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
          > tools
          > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
          > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
          > society,
          > > ones
          > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
          > > > > considerable
          > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
          > based
          > > on
          > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
          > > belief
          > > > > and
          > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
          > > doing
          > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
          > have
          > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
          > from
          > > > > them.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > SRD
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
          > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
          > > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
          > different
          > > > > > religion
          > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
          > > > > > successful?
          > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
          > of
          > > > > you
          > > > > > who
          > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
          > conversion
          > > > > was
          > > > > > more
          > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
          > > operation's
          > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > > Odo cicle qaa
          > > > --
          > > > www.enochian.org
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
        • daniel culver
          Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn t matter very much in regards
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
            Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry: like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?

            Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
            dear Daniel,

            sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
            to leave it unanswered.

            The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
            question for me.

            Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
            independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
            they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
            of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
            the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
            still mediaval.

            There have been several huge steps in culture done until
            today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
            then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
            different approach to life and existence, than our
            intellectual thing.

            I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
            believing family. This was in my thirties.
            BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
            before that:
            the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
            seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
            was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
            insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

            So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
            and rallied against Vietnam.

            I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
            I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
            tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
            hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
            disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
            older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
            I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
            like breaking traditions

            Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
            we never have learned to verbalize!

            We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
            generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
            influence of the churches.

            You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
            even enters our spiritual life.
            When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
            With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
            strength, positve waves a.s.o.
            and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

            What is the fault?

            If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
            So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
            breathing out?
            In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
            treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
            world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

            This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
            thought about religions - which even come from the same
            source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
            else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

            We have other clashes:
            If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
            problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

            The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
            of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
            lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
            knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

            Almost everything which is related to values has to be
            defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
            said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

            I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
            much to do to stay alive.

            have my respect and Love
            Georg





            daniel schrieb:
            >
            >
            > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
            > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
            > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
            > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
            > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
            > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
            > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
            > important to the operation.
            >
            > But I digress..
            >
            > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
            > "daniel" wrote:
            > >
            > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
            > touch
            > > on this one a little more..lol
            > >
            > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
            > the
            > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
            > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
            > of
            > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
            > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
            > > goal.
            > >
            > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
            > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
            > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
            > > out of love.
            > >
            > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
            > islam
            > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
            > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
            > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
            > > stated. ;)
            > >
            > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
            > serious
            > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
            > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
            > structure
            > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
            > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
            > >
            > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
            > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
            > , Athena wrote:
            > > >
            > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
            > > really
            > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
            > > the cover
            > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
            > can
            > > be
            > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
            > > backup and
            > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
            > > perhaps less
            > > > stuff to work through.
            > > >
            > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
            > folks
            > > who feel
            > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
            > need
            > > getting
            > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
            > > this would
            > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
            > spirituality
            > > of it.
            > > >
            > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
            > > atheist either,
            > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
            > be
            > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
            > > should be my
            > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
            > > >
            > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
            > it's
            > > really
            > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
            > > were raised
            > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
            > > obvious there
            > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
            > > to work
            > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
            > > So perhaps
            > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
            > is
            > > where
            > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
            > > >
            > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
            > > religion go with
            > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
            > > many ways to
            > > > connect.
            > > >
            > > > Athena
            > > > --
            > > > www.enochian.org
            > > >
            > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
            > > > >
            > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
            > > religion of
            > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
            > > (presbyterian)
            > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
            > how
            > > much
            > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
            > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
            > is
            > > not
            > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
            > > saint
            > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi Daniel,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
            > > your
            > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
            > today,
            > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
            > closely
            > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
            > > both
            > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
            > > magic
            > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
            > > fourth
            > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
            > > > > [also
            > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
            > > purist
            > > > > of
            > > > > > belief systems.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
            > influences
            > > and
            > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
            > a
            > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
            > > > > >
            > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
            > experienced
            > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
            > > in or
            > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
            > > more
            > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
            > tools
            > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
            > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
            > society,
            > > ones
            > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
            > > > > considerable
            > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
            > based
            > > on
            > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
            > > belief
            > > > > and
            > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
            > > doing
            > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
            > have
            > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
            > from
            > > > > them.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > SRD
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
            > different
            > > > > > religion
            > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
            > > > > > successful?
            > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
            > of
            > > > > you
            > > > > > who
            > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
            > conversion
            > > > > was
            > > > > > more
            > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
            > > operation's
            > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > Odo cicle qaa
            > > > --
            > > > www.enochian.org
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >

            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin/

            <*> Your email settings:
            Individual Email | Traditional

            <*> To change settings online go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin/join
            (Yahoo! ID required)

            <*> To change settings via email:
            mailto:abramelin-digest@yahoogroups.com
            mailto:abramelin-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


          • Georg Dehn
            alright, You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and hints. The most radical he
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
              alright,

              You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
              the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
              hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
              and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
              (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
              -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
              For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
              which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
              change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
              too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

              Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
              line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
              cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
              of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
              traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
              fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

              with best wishes
              Georg








              daniel culver schrieb:
              >
              >
              > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
              > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
              > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
              > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
              >
              > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
              >
              > dear Daniel,
              >
              > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
              > to leave it unanswered.
              >
              > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
              > question for me.
              >
              > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
              > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
              > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
              > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
              > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
              > still mediaval.
              >
              > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
              > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
              > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
              > different approach to life and existence, than our
              > intellectual thing.
              >
              > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
              > believing family. This was in my thirties.
              > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
              > before that:
              > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
              > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
              > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
              > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
              >
              > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
              > and rallied against Vietnam.
              >
              > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
              > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
              > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
              > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
              > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
              > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
              > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
              > like breaking traditions
              >
              > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
              > we never have learned to verbalize!
              >
              > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
              > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
              > influence of the churches.
              >
              > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
              > even enters our spiritual life.
              > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
              > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
              > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
              > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
              >
              > What is the fault?
              >
              > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
              > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
              > breathing out?
              > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
              > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
              > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
              >
              > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
              > thought about religions - which even come from the same
              > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
              > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
              >
              > We have other clashes:
              > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
              > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
              >
              > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
              > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
              > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
              > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
              >
              > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
              > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
              > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
              >
              > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
              > much to do to stay alive.
              >
              > have my respect and Love
              > Georg
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > daniel schrieb:
              > >
              > >
              > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
              > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
              > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
              > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
              > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
              > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
              > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
              > > important to the operation.
              > >
              > > But I digress..
              > >
              > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
              > > "daniel" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
              > > touch
              > > > on this one a little more..lol
              > > >
              > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
              > > the
              > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
              > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
              > > of
              > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
              > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
              > > > goal.
              > > >
              > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
              > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
              > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
              > > > out of love.
              > > >
              > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
              > > islam
              > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
              > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
              > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
              > > > stated. ;)
              > > >
              > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
              > > serious
              > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
              > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
              > > structure
              > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
              > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
              > > >
              > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
              > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
              > > , Athena wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
              > > > really
              > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
              > > > the cover
              > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
              > > can
              > > > be
              > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
              > > > backup and
              > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
              > > > perhaps less
              > > > > stuff to work through.
              > > > >
              > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
              > > folks
              > > > who feel
              > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
              > > need
              > > > getting
              > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
              > > > this would
              > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
              > > spirituality
              > > > of it.
              > > > >
              > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
              > > > atheist either,
              > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
              > > be
              > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
              > > > should be my
              > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
              > > it's
              > > > really
              > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
              > > > were raised
              > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
              > > > obvious there
              > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
              > > > to work
              > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
              > > > So perhaps
              > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
              > > is
              > > > where
              > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
              > > > >
              > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
              > > > religion go with
              > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
              > > > many ways to
              > > > > connect.
              > > > >
              > > > > Athena
              > > > > --
              > > > > www.enochian.org
              > > > >
              > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
              > > > religion of
              > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
              > > > (presbyterian)
              > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
              > > how
              > > > much
              > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
              > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
              > > is
              > > > not
              > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
              > > > saint
              > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
              > > > your
              > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
              > > today,
              > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
              > > closely
              > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
              > > > both
              > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
              > > > magic
              > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
              > > > fourth
              > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
              > magick
              > > > > > [also
              > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
              > > > purist
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > > belief systems.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
              > > influences
              > > > and
              > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
              > > a
              > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
              > > experienced
              > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
              > > > in or
              > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
              > > > more
              > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
              > > tools
              > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
              > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
              > > society,
              > > > ones
              > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
              > > > > > considerable
              > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
              > > based
              > > > on
              > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
              > > > belief
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
              > > > doing
              > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
              > > have
              > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
              > > from
              > > > > > them.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > SRD
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
              > > different
              > > > > > > religion
              > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
              > > > > > > successful?
              > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
              > > of
              > > > > > you
              > > > > > > who
              > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
              > > conversion
              > > > > > was
              > > > > > > more
              > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
              > > > operation's
              > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --
              > > > > Odo cicle qaa
              > > > > --
              > > > > www.enochian.org
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • daniel culver
              Interesting.. I think the main reason I m more inclined to islam is because I just don t know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
                Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc.. Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                 
                Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                alright,

                You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

                Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

                with best wishes
                Georg








                daniel culver schrieb:
                >
                >
                > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
                > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
                > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                >
                > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                >
                > dear Daniel,
                >
                > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                > to leave it unanswered.
                >
                > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                > question for me.
                >
                > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                > still mediaval.
                >
                > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                > different approach to life and existence, than our
                > intellectual thing.
                >
                > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                > before that:
                > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                >
                > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                > and rallied against Vietnam.
                >
                > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                > like breaking traditions
                >
                > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                > we never have learned to verbalize!
                >
                > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                > influence of the churches.
                >
                > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                > even enters our spiritual life.
                > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                >
                > What is the fault?
                >
                > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                > breathing out?
                > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                >
                > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                >
                > We have other clashes:
                > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                >
                > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                >
                > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                >
                > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                > much to do to stay alive.
                >
                > have my respect and Love
                > Georg
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > daniel schrieb:
                > >
                > >
                > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                > > important to the operation.
                > >
                > > But I digress..
                > >
                > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                > > "daniel" wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                > > touch
                > > > on this one a little more..lol
                > > >
                > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                > > the
                > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                > > of
                > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                > > > goal.
                > > >
                > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                > > > out of love.
                > > >
                > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                > > islam
                > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                > > > stated. ;)
                > > >
                > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                > > serious
                > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                > > structure
                > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                > > >
                > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                > > , Athena wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                > > > really
                > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                > > > the cover
                > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                > > can
                > > > be
                > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                > > > backup and
                > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                > > > perhaps less
                > > > > stuff to work through.
                > > > >
                > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                > > folks
                > > > who feel
                > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                > > need
                > > > getting
                > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                > > > this would
                > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                > > spirituality
                > > > of it.
                > > > >
                > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                > > > atheist either,
                > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                > > be
                > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                > > > should be my
                > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                > > it's
                > > > really
                > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                > > > were raised
                > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                > > > obvious there
                > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                > > > to work
                > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                > > > So perhaps
                > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                > > is
                > > > where
                > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                > > > >
                > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                > > > religion go with
                > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                > > > many ways to
                > > > > connect.
                > > > >
                > > > > Athena
                > > > > --
                > > > > www.enochian.org
                > > > >
                > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                > > > religion of
                > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                > > > (presbyterian)
                > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                > > how
                > > > much
                > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                > > is
                > > > not
                > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                > > > saint
                > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                > > > your
                > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                > > today,
                > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                > > closely
                > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                > > > both
                > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                > > > magic
                > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                > > > fourth
                > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                > magick
                > > > > > [also
                > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                > > > purist
                > > > > > of
                > > > > > > belief systems.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                > > influences
                > > > and
                > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                > > a
                > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                > > experienced
                > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                > > > in or
                > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                > > > more
                > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                > > tools
                > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                > > society,
                > > > ones
                > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                > > > > > considerable
                > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                > > based
                > > > on
                > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                > > > belief
                > > > > > and
                > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                > > > doing
                > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                > > have
                > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                > > from
                > > > > > them.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > SRD
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                > > different
                > > > > > > religion
                > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                > > > > > > successful?
                > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                > > of
                > > > > > you
                > > > > > > who
                > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                > > conversion
                > > > > > was
                > > > > > > more
                > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                > > > operation's
                > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --
                > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                > > > > --
                > > > > www.enochian.org
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin/

                <*> Your email settings:
                Individual Email | Traditional

                <*> To change settings online go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin/join
                (Yahoo! ID required)

                <*> To change settings via email:
                mailto:abramelin-digest@yahoogroups.com
                mailto:abramelin-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


              • Georg Dehn
                hi Daniel the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah. Choosing a religion is a very private thing.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 31, 2009
                  hi Daniel

                  the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                  zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                  Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                  a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                  have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                  out in the german book, they are related to the three
                  Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                  astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                  Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                  the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                  My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                  Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                  belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                  and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                  have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                  much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                  teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                  the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                  by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                  more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                  precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                  meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                  Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                  started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                  300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                  for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                  feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                  advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                  and al Ghazzali.

                  so long
                  Do what thou wilst!

                  Georg






                  daniel culver schrieb:
                  >
                  >
                  > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                  > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                  > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                  > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                  > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                  > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                  > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                  > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                  > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                  > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                  >
                  > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                  >
                  > alright,
                  >
                  > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                  > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                  > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                  > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                  > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                  > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                  > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                  > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                  > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                  > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                  >
                  > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                  > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                  > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                  > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                  > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                  > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                  >
                  > with best wishes
                  > Georg
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > daniel culver schrieb:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                  > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                  > matter
                  > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                  > fry:
                  > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                  > >
                  > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                  > >
                  > > dear Daniel,
                  > >
                  > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                  > > to leave it unanswered.
                  > >
                  > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                  > > question for me.
                  > >
                  > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                  > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                  > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                  > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                  > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                  > > still mediaval.
                  > >
                  > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                  > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                  > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                  > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                  > > intellectual thing.
                  > >
                  > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                  > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                  > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                  > > before that:
                  > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                  > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                  > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                  > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                  > >
                  > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                  > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                  > >
                  > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                  > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                  > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                  > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                  > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                  > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                  > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                  > > like breaking traditions
                  > >
                  > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                  > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                  > >
                  > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                  > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                  > > influence of the churches.
                  > >
                  > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                  > > even enters our spiritual life.
                  > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                  > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                  > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                  > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                  > >
                  > > What is the fault?
                  > >
                  > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                  > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                  > > breathing out?
                  > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                  > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                  > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                  > >
                  > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                  > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                  > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                  > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                  > >
                  > > We have other clashes:
                  > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                  > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                  > >
                  > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                  > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                  > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                  > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                  > >
                  > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                  > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                  > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                  > >
                  > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                  > > much to do to stay alive.
                  > >
                  > > have my respect and Love
                  > > Georg
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > daniel schrieb:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                  > right
                  > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                  > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                  > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                  > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                  > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                  > making
                  > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                  > > > important to the operation.
                  > > >
                  > > > But I digress..
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                  > > > "daniel" wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                  > > > touch
                  > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                  > > > the
                  > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                  > made
                  > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                  > part
                  > > > of
                  > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                  > It had
                  > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                  > > > > goal.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                  > from
                  > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                  > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                  > itself
                  > > > > out of love.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                  > > > islam
                  > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                  > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                  > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                  > > > > stated. ;)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                  > > > serious
                  > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                  > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                  > > > structure
                  > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                  > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                  > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > , Athena wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                  > there
                  > > > > really
                  > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                  > just
                  > > > > the cover
                  > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                  > > > can
                  > > > > be
                  > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                  > > > > backup and
                  > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                  > > > > perhaps less
                  > > > > > stuff to work through.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                  > > > folks
                  > > > > who feel
                  > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                  > > > need
                  > > > > getting
                  > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                  > perhaps
                  > > > > this would
                  > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                  > > > spirituality
                  > > > > of it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                  > raised
                  > > > > atheist either,
                  > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                  > > > be
                  > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                  > > > > should be my
                  > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                  > > > it's
                  > > > > really
                  > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                  > some who
                  > > > > were raised
                  > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                  > > > > obvious there
                  > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                  > Pagans try
                  > > > > to work
                  > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                  > etc.)
                  > > > > So perhaps
                  > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                  > > > is
                  > > > > where
                  > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                  > > > > religion go with
                  > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                  > > > > many ways to
                  > > > > > connect.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Athena
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > > www.enochian.org
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                  > > > > religion of
                  > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                  > > > > (presbyterian)
                  > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                  > > > how
                  > > > > much
                  > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                  > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                  > that
                  > > > is
                  > > > > not
                  > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                  > exercises of
                  > > > > saint
                  > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                  > > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                  > take on
                  > > > > your
                  > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                  > > > today,
                  > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                  > > > closely
                  > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                  > Rosicrucian's,
                  > > > > both
                  > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                  > Chaos
                  > > > > magic
                  > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                  > coupled to
                  > > > > fourth
                  > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                  > > magick
                  > > > > > > [also
                  > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                  > > > > purist
                  > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > belief systems.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                  > > > influences
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                  > are in
                  > > > a
                  > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                  > > > experienced
                  > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                  > living
                  > > > > in or
                  > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                  > thinking is
                  > > > > more
                  > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                  > > > tools
                  > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                  > like the
                  > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                  > > > society,
                  > > > > ones
                  > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                  > > > > > > considerable
                  > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                  > > > based
                  > > > > on
                  > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                  > > > > belief
                  > > > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                  > working], make
                  > > > > doing
                  > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                  > > > have
                  > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                  > > > from
                  > > > > > > them.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > SRD
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                  > > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                  > > > different
                  > > > > > > > religion
                  > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                  > > > > > > > successful?
                  > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                  > those
                  > > > of
                  > > > > > > you
                  > > > > > > > who
                  > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                  > > > conversion
                  > > > > > > was
                  > > > > > > > more
                  > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                  > > > > operation's
                  > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > > www.enochian.org
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • daniel culver
                  Thanks Georg! I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 1, 2009
                    Thanks Georg!
                     
                    I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time. Before I joined the order,however, I was making very good spiritual progress by myself with practices of the naqshbandi and listening to lectures by the grand sheikh of the naqshbandi of america. I went once, was initiated and didn't go back. The whole time I felt like it was a cult and that the sheikh was trying to control my mind. I felt partially insane for those few days. I don't think I like the setting of the tariqa very much. I have always been self-taught and that is why the abramelin operation appeals to me. No teachers are needed but the one within yourself. However, I may start taking up the practices again before I start the operation. I just don't want to get involved in the politics in the world of islam. Therefore, I don't know how much I will get involved in the community around it if I do pick it up again.

                    Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                    hi Daniel

                    the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                    zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                    Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                    a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                    have their own special "menthalities" . As I tried to point
                    out in the german book, they are related to the three
                    Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                    astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                    Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                    the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                    My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                    Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                    belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                    and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                    have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                    much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                    teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                    the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                    by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                    more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                    precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                    meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                    Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                    started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                    300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                    for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                    feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                    advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                    and al Ghazzali.

                    so long
                    Do what thou wilst!

                    Georg

                    daniel culver schrieb:
                    >
                    >
                    > Interesting. . I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                    > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                    > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                    > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                    > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                    > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                    > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                    > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                    > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                    > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                    >
                    > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                    >
                    > alright,
                    >
                    > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                    > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                    > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                    > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                    > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                    > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                    > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                    > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                    > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                    > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation) .
                    >
                    > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                    > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                    > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                    > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                    > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                    > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                    >
                    > with best wishes
                    > Georg
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > daniel culver schrieb:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                    > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                    > matter
                    > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                    > fry:
                    > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                    > >
                    > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                    > >
                    > > dear Daniel,
                    > >
                    > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                    > > to leave it unanswered.
                    > >
                    > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                    > > question for me.
                    > >
                    > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                    > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                    > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                    > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                    > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                    > > still mediaval.
                    > >
                    > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                    > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                    > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                    > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                    > > intellectual thing.
                    > >
                    > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                    > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                    > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                    > > before that:
                    > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                    > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                    > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                    > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                    > >
                    > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                    > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                    > >
                    > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                    > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                    > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                    > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                    > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                    > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                    > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                    > > like breaking traditions
                    > >
                    > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                    > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                    > >
                    > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                    > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                    > > influence of the churches.
                    > >
                    > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                    > > even enters our spiritual life.
                    > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                    > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                    > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                    > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                    > >
                    > > What is the fault?
                    > >
                    > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                    > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                    > > breathing out?
                    > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                    > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                    > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                    > >
                    > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                    > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                    > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                    > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                    > >
                    > > We have other clashes:
                    > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                    > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                    > >
                    > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                    > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                    > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                    > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                    > >
                    > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                    > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                    > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                    > >
                    > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                    > > much to do to stay alive.
                    > >
                    > > have my respect and Love
                    > > Georg
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > daniel schrieb:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                    > right
                    > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                    > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                    > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                    > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                    > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                    > making
                    > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                    > > > important to the operation.
                    > > >
                    > > > But I digress..
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com ,
                    > > > "daniel" wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                    > > > touch
                    > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                    > > > the
                    > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                    > made
                    > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                    > part
                    > > > of
                    > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                    > It had
                    > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                    > > > > goal.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                    > from
                    > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                    > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                    > itself
                    > > > > out of love.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                    > > > islam
                    > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                    > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                    > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                    > > > > stated. ;)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                    > > > serious
                    > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                    > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                    > > > structure
                    > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                    > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                    > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > > > , Athena wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                    > there
                    > > > > really
                    > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                    > just
                    > > > > the cover
                    > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic) . You know how accurate covers
                    > > > can
                    > > > > be
                    > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                    > > > > backup and
                    > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                    > > > > perhaps less
                    > > > > > stuff to work through.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                    > > > folks
                    > > > > who feel
                    > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                    > > > need
                    > > > > getting
                    > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                    > perhaps
                    > > > > this would
                    > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                    > > > spirituality
                    > > > > of it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                    > raised
                    > > > > atheist either,
                    > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                    > > > be
                    > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                    > > > > should be my
                    > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                    > > > it's
                    > > > > really
                    > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                    > some who
                    > > > > were raised
                    > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                    > > > > obvious there
                    > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                    > Pagans try
                    > > > > to work
                    > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                    > etc.)
                    > > > > So perhaps
                    > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                    > > > is
                    > > > > where
                    > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                    > > > > religion go with
                    > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                    > > > > many ways to
                    > > > > > connect.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Athena
                    > > > > > --
                    > > > > > www.enochian. org
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                    > > > > religion of
                    > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                    > > > > (presbyterian)
                    > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                    > > > how
                    > > > > much
                    > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                    > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                    > that
                    > > > is
                    > > > > not
                    > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                    > exercises of
                    > > > > saint
                    > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, "hwhydog"
                    > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                    > take on
                    > > > > your
                    > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                    > > > today,
                    > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                    > > > closely
                    > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                    > Rosicrucian' s,
                    > > > > both
                    > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                    > Chaos
                    > > > > magic
                    > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                    > coupled to
                    > > > > fourth
                    > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                    > > magick
                    > > > > > > [also
                    > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science] . – Non-belief is the
                    > > > > purist
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > belief systems.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                    > > > influences
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                    > are in
                    > > > a
                    > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                    > > > experienced
                    > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                    > living
                    > > > > in or
                    > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                    > thinking is
                    > > > > more
                    > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                    > > > tools
                    > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                    > like the
                    > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                    > > > society,
                    > > > > ones
                    > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                    > > > > > > considerable
                    > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                    > > > based
                    > > > > on
                    > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                    > > > > belief
                    > > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                    > working], make
                    > > > > doing
                    > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                    > > > have
                    > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                    > > > from
                    > > > > > > them.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > SRD
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "daniel"
                    > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                    > > > different
                    > > > > > > > religion
                    > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                    > > > > > > > successful?
                    > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                    > those
                    > > > of
                    > > > > > > you
                    > > > > > > > who
                    > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                    > > > conversion
                    > > > > > > was
                    > > > > > > > more
                    > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                    > > > > operation's
                    > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --
                    > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                    > > > > > --
                    > > > > > www.enochian. org
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    begin:vcard
                    fn:Georg Dehn
                    n:Dehn;Georg
                    org;quoted-printable;quoted-printable:Verein f=C3=BCr Integrale =C3=96kologie, Araki Vlg und Magazin Shekinah;=C3=96ffentlichkeitsarbeit
                    adr;dom:;;Theresienstr. 35;Leipzig;;04129
                    email;internet:gd@...
                    tel;home:0341 391 99 87
                    note:www.roterdrache.org
                    url:www.araki.de
                    version:2.1
                    end:vcard


                  • daniel
                    Georg- Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament so maybe
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 3, 2009
                      Georg-

                      Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra
                      practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament
                      so maybe getting into something like that can revive my old ties in
                      the religion..

                      Thanks
                      daniel

                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > hi Daniel
                      >
                      > the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                      > zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.
                      >
                      > Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                      > a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                      > have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                      > out in the german book, they are related to the three
                      > Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                      > astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.
                      >
                      > Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                      > the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.
                      >
                      > My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                      > Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                      > belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                      > and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                      > have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                      > much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                      > teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                      > the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                      > by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                      > more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                      > precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                      > meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.
                      >
                      > Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                      > started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                      > 300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                      > for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                      > feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                      > advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                      > and al Ghazzali.
                      >
                      > so long
                      > Do what thou wilst!
                      >
                      > Georg
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > daniel culver schrieb:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam
                      is
                      > > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a
                      foundation
                      > > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying
                      through
                      > > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for
                      me-etc..
                      > > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm
                      basically
                      > > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers
                      and
                      > > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus
                      and
                      > > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform
                      the
                      > > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                      > > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                      > >
                      > > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                      > >
                      > > alright,
                      > >
                      > > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                      > > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                      > > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                      > > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                      > > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                      > > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                      > > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                      > > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                      > > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                      > > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                      > >
                      > > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                      > > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                      > > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                      > > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                      > > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                      > > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                      > >
                      > > with best wishes
                      > > Georg
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > daniel culver schrieb:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on
                      the anger
                      > > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion
                      doesn't
                      > > matter
                      > > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger
                      fish to
                      > > fry:
                      > > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                      > > >
                      > > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > dear Daniel,
                      > > >
                      > > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                      > > > to leave it unanswered.
                      > > >
                      > > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                      > > > question for me.
                      > > >
                      > > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                      > > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                      > > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                      > > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big
                      movement,
                      > > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                      > > > still mediaval.
                      > > >
                      > > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                      > > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed
                      since
                      > > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                      > > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                      > > > intellectual thing.
                      > > >
                      > > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                      > > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                      > > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten
                      years
                      > > > before that:
                      > > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                      > > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                      > > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                      > > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                      > > >
                      > > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear
                      transports
                      > > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                      > > >
                      > > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                      > > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                      > > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                      > > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                      > > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                      > > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                      > > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and
                      not
                      > > > like breaking traditions
                      > > >
                      > > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed,
                      that
                      > > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                      > > >
                      > > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                      > > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                      > > > influence of the churches.
                      > > >
                      > > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                      > > > even enters our spiritual life.
                      > > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                      > > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                      > > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                      > > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                      > > >
                      > > > What is the fault?
                      > > >
                      > > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                      > > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                      > > > breathing out?
                      > > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                      > > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to
                      the
                      > > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                      > > >
                      > > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                      > > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                      > > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are
                      nothing
                      > > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                      > > >
                      > > > We have other clashes:
                      > > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                      > > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                      > > >
                      > > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                      > > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They
                      perverted
                      > > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                      > > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                      > > >
                      > > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                      > > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                      > > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                      > > >
                      > > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                      > > > much to do to stay alive.
                      > > >
                      > > > have my respect and Love
                      > > > Georg
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > daniel schrieb:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide
                      what is
                      > > right
                      > > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for
                      intellectual
                      > > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of
                      islam but the
                      > > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the
                      same thing
                      > > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm
                      stuck between a
                      > > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my
                      mind is
                      > > making
                      > > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not
                      completely
                      > > > > important to the operation.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > But I digress..
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                      > > > > "daniel" wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I
                      wanted to
                      > > > > touch
                      > > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't
                      understand
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest,
                      it never
                      > > made
                      > > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and
                      may be
                      > > part
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high
                      school.
                      > > It had
                      > > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the
                      means to the
                      > > > > > goal.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more
                      sense to me
                      > > from
                      > > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and
                      helping not for
                      > > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the
                      act of
                      > > itself
                      > > > > > out of love.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the
                      same? Since
                      > > > > islam
                      > > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a
                      prophet/teacher to
                      > > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric
                      differences in
                      > > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so
                      eloquently
                      > > > > > stated. ;)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really
                      trying to be
                      > > > > serious
                      > > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily
                      life for this
                      > > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular
                      enough
                      > > > > structure
                      > > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced
                      practicing it
                      > > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep
                      subconscious beliefs.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read
                      the bible?
                      > > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in
                      some ways..
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > , Athena wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin
                      is that
                      > > there
                      > > > > > really
                      > > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are
                      perhaps
                      > > just
                      > > > > > the cover
                      > > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how
                      accurate covers
                      > > > > can
                      > > > > > be
                      > > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you
                      have the
                      > > > > > backup and
                      > > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and
                      etc. Also,
                      > > > > > perhaps less
                      > > > > > > stuff to work through.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for
                      some modern
                      > > > > folks
                      > > > > > who feel
                      > > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course
                      this would
                      > > > > need
                      > > > > > getting
                      > > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion
                      itself, but
                      > > perhaps
                      > > > > > this would
                      > > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                      > > > > spirituality
                      > > > > > of it.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion,
                      but not
                      > > raised
                      > > > > > atheist either,
                      > > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was
                      too young to
                      > > > > be
                      > > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this
                      sort of thing
                      > > > > > should be my
                      > > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest
                      for example,
                      > > > > it's
                      > > > > > really
                      > > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking
                      of
                      > > some who
                      > > > > > were raised
                      > > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things
                      that make it
                      > > > > > obvious there
                      > > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff
                      that
                      > > Pagans try
                      > > > > > to work
                      > > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing
                      magic and
                      > > etc.)
                      > > > > > So perhaps
                      > > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood
                      religion since it
                      > > > > is
                      > > > > > where
                      > > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if
                      subconsciously.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your
                      childhood
                      > > > > > religion go with
                      > > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the
                      divine, and
                      > > > > > many ways to
                      > > > > > > connect.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Athena
                      > > > > > > --
                      > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying
                      to the
                      > > > > > religion of
                      > > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the
                      church
                      > > > > > (presbyterian)
                      > > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the
                      surroundings and
                      > > > > how
                      > > > > > much
                      > > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-
                      work in
                      > > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other
                      religions- but
                      > > that
                      > > > > is
                      > > > > > not
                      > > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                      > > exercises of
                      > > > > > saint
                      > > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily
                      regimen..
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                      > > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a
                      different
                      > > take on
                      > > > > > your
                      > > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very
                      different for us
                      > > > > today,
                      > > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists
                      were so
                      > > > > closely
                      > > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                      > > Rosicrucian's,
                      > > > > > both
                      > > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today,
                      following
                      > > Chaos
                      > > > > > magic
                      > > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                      > > coupled to
                      > > > > > fourth
                      > > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all
                      schools of
                      > > > magick
                      > > > > > > > [also
                      > > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-
                      belief is the
                      > > > > > purist
                      > > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > > belief systems.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such
                      subconscious
                      > > > > influences
                      > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling
                      that You
                      > > are in
                      > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched
                      yet un-
                      > > > > experienced
                      > > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we
                      are not
                      > > living
                      > > > > > in or
                      > > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                      > > thinking is
                      > > > > > more
                      > > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a
                      wider array of
                      > > > > tools
                      > > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy
                      workings
                      > > like the
                      > > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free
                      from
                      > > > > society,
                      > > > > > ones
                      > > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual
                      liaison – for a
                      > > > > > > > considerable
                      > > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost
                      significance.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it
                      has to be
                      > > > > based
                      > > > > > on
                      > > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable.
                      Freedom from
                      > > > > > belief
                      > > > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                      > > working], make
                      > > > > > doing
                      > > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe
                      in it and
                      > > > > have
                      > > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying
                      any danger
                      > > > > from
                      > > > > > > > them.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > SRD
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                      > > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think
                      practicing a
                      > > > > different
                      > > > > > > > > religion
                      > > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the
                      operation would be
                      > > > > > > > > successful?
                      > > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to
                      know from
                      > > those
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > you
                      > > > > > > > > who
                      > > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of
                      that..?
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval
                      times the
                      > > > > conversion
                      > > > > > > > was
                      > > > > > > > > more
                      > > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful
                      to the
                      > > > > > operation's
                      > > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be
                      appreciated!
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --
                      > > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                      > > > > > > --
                      > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.