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Re: [abramelin] Religion and Abramelin Operation

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  • Scarlet
    Thelema Georg, What an excellent answer! My parents were brought up strict Welsh Baptists, however during the 60s they decided that until I was 18 I would not
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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      Thelema Georg,

      What an excellent answer!

      My parents were brought up strict Welsh Baptists, however during the 60s they decided that until I was 18 I would not follow any religion.

      I was able to invite Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Hare Krishna's, even Thelemites ;) into the house to talk to them about their religion. Though the funny thing is I seem to remember Welsh Baptist hymns 'by heart.' even though that wasn't the main part of my religious background

      I too am convinced that Abramelin was saying, "don't rebuke your ancestors, go with them."

      Will
       Love
        ALWays

      Scarlet

      On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:26 AM, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:

      hi Daniel

      this is not an intellectual question or one of gnostic experience. The
      problem is, that from pregnancy You are in the "waves" of a religious
      influence that gives You such da deep impact. Consider pregnant wifes
      sitting in a X-mas service, in a mosque at Ramadan or a temple at the
      birthday of Lord Krishna.

      Best would be, being brought up atheist and having youre own choice and
      freedom of individual practice. It's an interesting challenge for parents.

      I am convinced, that You Abramelin meant such subconscious influences
      and what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
      harmonious world of the big line of anchestors and not in a fight of
      cultures and generations.

      Georg

      daniel schrieb:


      >
      > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different religion
      > than from childhood while working the operation would be successful?
      > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of you who
      > completed it what you think about all of that..?
      >
      > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion was more
      > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
      > results- but not so much the case for today..
      >
      > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
      >
      >

    • hwhydog
      Hi Daniel, I enjoyed Georg s illustration, but have a different take on your question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today, especially as so
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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        Hi Daniel,

        I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
        question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
        especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
        linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
        deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
        and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
        dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick [also
        don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist of
        belief systems.

        Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
        what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
        harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"

        … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
        opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
        just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
        common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
        directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
        Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
        spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a considerable
        length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.

        Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
        faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief and
        allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
        the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
        unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from them.

        SRD



        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
        >
        > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
        religion
        > than from childhood while working the operation would be
        successful?
        > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of you
        who
        > completed it what you think about all of that..?
        >
        > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion was
        more
        > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
        > results- but not so much the case for today..
        >
        > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
        >
      • daniel
        Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help! I think I understand now the importance of staying to the religion of your birth.. I am considering going back
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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          Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!

          I think I understand now the importance of staying to the religion of
          your birth.. I am considering going back to the church (presbyterian)
          I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how much
          it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
          christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is not
          true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of saint
          ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..



          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Daniel,
          >
          > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
          > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
          > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
          > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
          > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
          > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
          > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
          [also
          > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist
          of
          > belief systems.
          >
          > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
          > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
          > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
          >
          > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
          > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
          > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
          > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
          > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
          > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
          > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
          considerable
          > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
          >
          > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
          > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief
          and
          > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
          > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
          > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
          them.
          >
          > SRD
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
          > religion
          > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
          > successful?
          > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
          you
          > who
          > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
          > >
          > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
          was
          > more
          > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
          > > results- but not so much the case for today..
          > >
          > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
          > >
          >
        • templumkat
          Daniel With respect to your question, and the responses given by Georg and SRD, I would add that the Abramelin operation brings about a significant spiritual
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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            Daniel

            With respect to your question, and the responses given by Georg and
            SRD, I would add that the Abramelin operation brings about a
            significant spiritual crisis to the practitioner, and as such it is
            presented in a manner suitable to the practitioner.

            As Georg notes, one of the triumphs of the operation is that it
            appears (in my wording) to transcend cultural temporal/spatial
            constraint, and represent a universal and a-temporal reality (what
            might be a component of "spiritual" reality).

            I found that the ritual unpacked itself for the time/space in which I
            worked it, as per the French/Mathers edition, but aware of the German
            edition and other operator diaries/accounts. It matters not whether
            your constraint or environment is in the "inquisition" or the "new
            inquisition" mentioned by R.A. Wilson, or in a cave or a space
            station. The operation contains all the instructions required.

            So I would recommend re-connecting to your religious practice, as the
            Operation, should you undertake it, will inform this further, mutate
            it, and develop it in its own manner.

            I'd not comment on the belief that non-belief is possible ... LOL.
            And faith is the *evidence* of things unseen ... the Abramelin
            operation, when performed, is an absolute demonstration of faith.

            Marcus
            http://www.farawaycentre.com
            http://www.tarotprofessionals.com


            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Daniel,
            >
            > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
            > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
            > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
            > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
            > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
            > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
            > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
            [also
            > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist
            of
            > belief systems.
            >
            > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
            > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
            > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
            >
            > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
            > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
            > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
            > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
            > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
            > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
            > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
            considerable
            > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
            >
            > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
            > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief
            and
            > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
            > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
            > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
            them.
            >
            > SRD
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
            > religion
            > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
            > successful?
            > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
            you
            > who
            > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
            > >
            > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
            was
            > more
            > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
            > > results- but not so much the case for today..
            > >
            > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
            > >
            >
          • Athena
            You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there really isn t a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just the cover of the books
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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              You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there really isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just the cover of the books (I'm polytheistic).  You know how accurate covers can be sometimes...  I think they recommend this so that you have the backup and support of that religion you were baptized into and etc.  Also, perhaps less stuff to work through. 

              However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern folks who feel hurt deeply by their childhood religion.  Of course this would need getting over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps this would cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the spirituality of it.

              Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised atheist either, so I got to choose.  My parents beleived that I was too young to be influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing should be my choice when I was old enough to decide.

              Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example, it's really difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who were raised Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it obvious there is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try to work through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)  So perhaps one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it is where some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.

              I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood religion go with that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and many ways to connect. 

              Athena
              --
              www.enochian.org

              On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:

              Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!

              I think I understand now the importance of staying to the religion of
              your birth.. I am considering going back to the church (presbyterian)
              I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how much
              it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
              christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is not
              true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of saint
              ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..

              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Daniel,
              >
              > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
              > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
              > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
              > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
              > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
              > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
              > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
              [also
              > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist
              of
              > belief systems.
              >
              > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
              > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
              > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
              >
              > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
              > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
              > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
              > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
              > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
              > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
              > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
              considerable
              > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
              >
              > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
              > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief
              and
              > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
              > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
              > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
              them.
              >
              > SRD
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
              > religion
              > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
              > successful?
              > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
              you
              > who
              > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
              > >
              > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
              was
              > more
              > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
              > > results- but not so much the case for today..
              > >
              > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
              > >
              >




              --
              Odo cicle qaa
              --
              www.enochian.org
            • daniel
              Since my other thread hasn t spurred much interest, I wanted to touch on this one a little more..lol I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don t
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
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                Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to touch
                on this one a little more..lol

                I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand the
                point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part of
                the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                goal.

                Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                out of love.

                So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since islam
                accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                stated. ;)

                Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be serious
                in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough structure
                to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.

                For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..


                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                >
                > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                really
                > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                the cover
                > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers can
                be
                > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                backup and
                > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                perhaps less
                > stuff to work through.
                >
                > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern folks
                who feel
                > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would need
                getting
                > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                this would
                > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the spirituality
                of it.
                >
                > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                atheist either,
                > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to be
                > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                should be my
                > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                >
                > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example, it's
                really
                > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                were raised
                > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                obvious there
                > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                to work
                > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                So perhaps
                > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it is
                where
                > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                >
                > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                religion go with
                > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                many ways to
                > connect.
                >
                > Athena
                > --
                > www.enochian.org
                >
                > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                > >
                > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                religion of
                > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                (presbyterian)
                > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how
                much
                > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is
                not
                > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                saint
                > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                > >
                > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Daniel,
                > > >
                > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                your
                > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
                > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
                > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                both
                > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                magic
                > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                fourth
                > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                > > [also
                > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                purist
                > > of
                > > > belief systems.
                > > >
                > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences
                and
                > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
                > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                > > >
                > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
                > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                in or
                > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                more
                > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
                > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society,
                ones
                > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                > > considerable
                > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                > > >
                > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based
                on
                > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                belief
                > > and
                > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                doing
                > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
                > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
                > > them.
                > > >
                > > > SRD
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
                > > > religion
                > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                > > > successful?
                > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
                > > you
                > > > who
                > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                > > > >
                > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
                > > was
                > > > more
                > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                operation's
                > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Odo cicle qaa
                > --
                > www.enochian.org
                >
              • daniel
                I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual understanding. I
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
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                  I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                  for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                  understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                  context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                  since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                  rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                  up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                  important to the operation.

                  But I digress..

                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                  touch
                  > on this one a little more..lol
                  >
                  > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                  the
                  > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                  > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                  of
                  > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                  > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                  > goal.
                  >
                  > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                  > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                  > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                  > out of love.
                  >
                  > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                  islam
                  > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                  > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                  > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                  > stated. ;)
                  >
                  > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                  serious
                  > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                  > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                  structure
                  > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                  > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                  >
                  > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                  > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                  > really
                  > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                  > the cover
                  > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                  can
                  > be
                  > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                  > backup and
                  > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                  > perhaps less
                  > > stuff to work through.
                  > >
                  > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                  folks
                  > who feel
                  > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                  need
                  > getting
                  > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                  > this would
                  > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                  spirituality
                  > of it.
                  > >
                  > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                  > atheist either,
                  > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                  be
                  > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                  > should be my
                  > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                  > >
                  > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                  it's
                  > really
                  > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                  > were raised
                  > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                  > obvious there
                  > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                  > to work
                  > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                  > So perhaps
                  > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                  is
                  > where
                  > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                  > >
                  > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                  > religion go with
                  > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                  > many ways to
                  > > connect.
                  > >
                  > > Athena
                  > > --
                  > > www.enochian.org
                  > >
                  > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                  > > >
                  > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                  > religion of
                  > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                  > (presbyterian)
                  > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                  how
                  > much
                  > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                  > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                  is
                  > not
                  > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                  > saint
                  > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                  > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Daniel,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                  > your
                  > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                  today,
                  > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                  closely
                  > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                  > both
                  > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                  > magic
                  > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                  > fourth
                  > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                  > > > [also
                  > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                  > purist
                  > > > of
                  > > > > belief systems.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                  influences
                  > and
                  > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                  a
                  > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                  experienced
                  > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                  > in or
                  > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                  > more
                  > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                  tools
                  > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                  > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                  society,
                  > ones
                  > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                  > > > considerable
                  > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                  based
                  > on
                  > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                  > belief
                  > > > and
                  > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                  > doing
                  > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                  have
                  > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                  from
                  > > > them.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > SRD
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                  > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                  different
                  > > > > religion
                  > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                  > > > > successful?
                  > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                  of
                  > > > you
                  > > > > who
                  > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                  conversion
                  > > > was
                  > > > > more
                  > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                  > operation's
                  > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Odo cicle qaa
                  > > --
                  > > www.enochian.org
                  > >
                  >
                • Georg Dehn
                  dear Daniel, sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling to leave it unanswered. The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    dear Daniel,

                    sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                    to leave it unanswered.

                    The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                    question for me.

                    Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                    independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                    they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                    of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                    the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                    still mediaval.

                    There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                    today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                    then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                    different approach to life and existence, than our
                    intellectual thing.

                    I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                    believing family. This was in my thirties.
                    BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                    before that:
                    the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                    seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                    was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                    insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

                    So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                    and rallied against Vietnam.

                    I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                    I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                    tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                    hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                    disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                    older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                    I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                    like breaking traditions

                    Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                    we never have learned to verbalize!

                    We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                    generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                    influence of the churches.

                    You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                    even enters our spiritual life.
                    When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                    With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                    strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                    and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

                    What is the fault?

                    If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                    So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                    breathing out?
                    In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                    treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                    world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

                    This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                    thought about religions - which even come from the same
                    source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                    else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

                    We have other clashes:
                    If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                    problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

                    The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                    of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                    lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                    knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

                    Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                    defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                    said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

                    I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                    much to do to stay alive.

                    have my respect and Love
                    Georg





                    daniel schrieb:
                    >
                    >
                    > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                    > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                    > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                    > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                    > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                    > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                    > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                    > important to the operation.
                    >
                    > But I digress..
                    >
                    > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                    > touch
                    > > on this one a little more..lol
                    > >
                    > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                    > the
                    > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                    > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                    > of
                    > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                    > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                    > > goal.
                    > >
                    > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                    > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                    > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                    > > out of love.
                    > >
                    > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                    > islam
                    > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                    > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                    > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                    > > stated. ;)
                    > >
                    > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                    > serious
                    > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                    > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                    > structure
                    > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                    > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                    > >
                    > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                    > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                    > > really
                    > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                    > > the cover
                    > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                    > can
                    > > be
                    > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                    > > backup and
                    > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                    > > perhaps less
                    > > > stuff to work through.
                    > > >
                    > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                    > folks
                    > > who feel
                    > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                    > need
                    > > getting
                    > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                    > > this would
                    > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                    > spirituality
                    > > of it.
                    > > >
                    > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                    > > atheist either,
                    > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                    > be
                    > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                    > > should be my
                    > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                    > it's
                    > > really
                    > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                    > > were raised
                    > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                    > > obvious there
                    > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                    > > to work
                    > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                    > > So perhaps
                    > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                    > is
                    > > where
                    > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                    > > >
                    > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                    > > religion go with
                    > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                    > > many ways to
                    > > > connect.
                    > > >
                    > > > Athena
                    > > > --
                    > > > www.enochian.org
                    > > >
                    > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                    > > religion of
                    > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                    > > (presbyterian)
                    > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                    > how
                    > > much
                    > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                    > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                    > is
                    > > not
                    > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                    > > saint
                    > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                    > > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                    > > your
                    > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                    > today,
                    > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                    > closely
                    > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                    > > both
                    > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                    > > magic
                    > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                    > > fourth
                    > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                    > > > > [also
                    > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                    > > purist
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > belief systems.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                    > influences
                    > > and
                    > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                    > a
                    > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                    > experienced
                    > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                    > > in or
                    > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                    > > more
                    > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                    > tools
                    > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                    > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                    > society,
                    > > ones
                    > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                    > > > > considerable
                    > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                    > based
                    > > on
                    > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                    > > belief
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                    > > doing
                    > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                    > have
                    > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                    > from
                    > > > > them.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > SRD
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                    > > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                    > different
                    > > > > > religion
                    > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                    > > > > > successful?
                    > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                    > of
                    > > > > you
                    > > > > > who
                    > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                    > conversion
                    > > > > was
                    > > > > > more
                    > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                    > > operation's
                    > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --
                    > > > Odo cicle qaa
                    > > > --
                    > > > www.enochian.org
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • daniel culver
                    Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn t matter very much in regards
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry: like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?

                      Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                      dear Daniel,

                      sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                      to leave it unanswered.

                      The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                      question for me.

                      Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                      independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                      they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                      of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                      the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                      still mediaval.

                      There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                      today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                      then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                      different approach to life and existence, than our
                      intellectual thing.

                      I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                      believing family. This was in my thirties.
                      BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                      before that:
                      the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                      seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                      was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                      insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

                      So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                      and rallied against Vietnam.

                      I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                      I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                      tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                      hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                      disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                      older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                      I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                      like breaking traditions

                      Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                      we never have learned to verbalize!

                      We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                      generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                      influence of the churches.

                      You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                      even enters our spiritual life.
                      When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                      With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                      strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                      and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

                      What is the fault?

                      If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                      So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                      breathing out?
                      In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                      treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                      world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

                      This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                      thought about religions - which even come from the same
                      source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                      else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

                      We have other clashes:
                      If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                      problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

                      The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                      of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                      lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                      knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

                      Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                      defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                      said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

                      I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                      much to do to stay alive.

                      have my respect and Love
                      Georg





                      daniel schrieb:
                      >
                      >
                      > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                      > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                      > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                      > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                      > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                      > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                      > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                      > important to the operation.
                      >
                      > But I digress..
                      >
                      > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                      > "daniel" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                      > touch
                      > > on this one a little more..lol
                      > >
                      > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                      > the
                      > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                      > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                      > of
                      > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                      > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                      > > goal.
                      > >
                      > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                      > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                      > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                      > > out of love.
                      > >
                      > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                      > islam
                      > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                      > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                      > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                      > > stated. ;)
                      > >
                      > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                      > serious
                      > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                      > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                      > structure
                      > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                      > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                      > >
                      > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                      > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > , Athena wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                      > > really
                      > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                      > > the cover
                      > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                      > can
                      > > be
                      > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                      > > backup and
                      > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                      > > perhaps less
                      > > > stuff to work through.
                      > > >
                      > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                      > folks
                      > > who feel
                      > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                      > need
                      > > getting
                      > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                      > > this would
                      > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                      > spirituality
                      > > of it.
                      > > >
                      > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                      > > atheist either,
                      > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                      > be
                      > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                      > > should be my
                      > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                      > it's
                      > > really
                      > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                      > > were raised
                      > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                      > > obvious there
                      > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                      > > to work
                      > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                      > > So perhaps
                      > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                      > is
                      > > where
                      > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                      > > >
                      > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                      > > religion go with
                      > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                      > > many ways to
                      > > > connect.
                      > > >
                      > > > Athena
                      > > > --
                      > > > www.enochian.org
                      > > >
                      > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                      > > religion of
                      > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                      > > (presbyterian)
                      > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                      > how
                      > > much
                      > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                      > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                      > is
                      > > not
                      > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                      > > saint
                      > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                      > > your
                      > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                      > today,
                      > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                      > closely
                      > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                      > > both
                      > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                      > > magic
                      > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                      > > fourth
                      > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                      > > > > [also
                      > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                      > > purist
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > belief systems.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                      > influences
                      > > and
                      > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                      > a
                      > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                      > experienced
                      > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                      > > in or
                      > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                      > > more
                      > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                      > tools
                      > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                      > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                      > society,
                      > > ones
                      > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                      > > > > considerable
                      > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                      > based
                      > > on
                      > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                      > > belief
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                      > > doing
                      > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                      > have
                      > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                      > from
                      > > > > them.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > SRD
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                      > different
                      > > > > > religion
                      > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                      > > > > > successful?
                      > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                      > of
                      > > > > you
                      > > > > > who
                      > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                      > conversion
                      > > > > was
                      > > > > > more
                      > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                      > > operation's
                      > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > Odo cicle qaa
                      > > > --
                      > > > www.enochian.org
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >

                      ------------------------------------

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                    • Georg Dehn
                      alright, You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and hints. The most radical he
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        alright,

                        You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                        the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                        hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                        and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                        (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                        -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                        For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                        which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                        change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                        too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

                        Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                        line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                        cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                        of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                        traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                        fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

                        with best wishes
                        Georg








                        daniel culver schrieb:
                        >
                        >
                        > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                        > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
                        > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
                        > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                        >
                        > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                        >
                        > dear Daniel,
                        >
                        > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                        > to leave it unanswered.
                        >
                        > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                        > question for me.
                        >
                        > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                        > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                        > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                        > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                        > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                        > still mediaval.
                        >
                        > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                        > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                        > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                        > different approach to life and existence, than our
                        > intellectual thing.
                        >
                        > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                        > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                        > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                        > before that:
                        > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                        > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                        > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                        > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                        >
                        > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                        > and rallied against Vietnam.
                        >
                        > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                        > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                        > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                        > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                        > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                        > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                        > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                        > like breaking traditions
                        >
                        > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                        > we never have learned to verbalize!
                        >
                        > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                        > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                        > influence of the churches.
                        >
                        > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                        > even enters our spiritual life.
                        > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                        > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                        > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                        > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                        >
                        > What is the fault?
                        >
                        > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                        > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                        > breathing out?
                        > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                        > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                        > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                        >
                        > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                        > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                        > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                        > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                        >
                        > We have other clashes:
                        > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                        > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                        >
                        > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                        > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                        > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                        > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                        >
                        > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                        > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                        > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                        >
                        > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                        > much to do to stay alive.
                        >
                        > have my respect and Love
                        > Georg
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > daniel schrieb:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                        > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                        > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                        > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                        > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                        > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                        > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                        > > important to the operation.
                        > >
                        > > But I digress..
                        > >
                        > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                        > > "daniel" wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                        > > touch
                        > > > on this one a little more..lol
                        > > >
                        > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                        > > the
                        > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                        > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                        > > of
                        > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                        > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                        > > > goal.
                        > > >
                        > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                        > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                        > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                        > > > out of love.
                        > > >
                        > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                        > > islam
                        > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                        > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                        > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                        > > > stated. ;)
                        > > >
                        > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                        > > serious
                        > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                        > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                        > > structure
                        > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                        > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                        > > >
                        > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                        > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        > > , Athena wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                        > > > really
                        > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                        > > > the cover
                        > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                        > > can
                        > > > be
                        > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                        > > > backup and
                        > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                        > > > perhaps less
                        > > > > stuff to work through.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                        > > folks
                        > > > who feel
                        > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                        > > need
                        > > > getting
                        > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                        > > > this would
                        > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                        > > spirituality
                        > > > of it.
                        > > > >
                        > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                        > > > atheist either,
                        > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                        > > be
                        > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                        > > > should be my
                        > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                        > > it's
                        > > > really
                        > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                        > > > were raised
                        > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                        > > > obvious there
                        > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                        > > > to work
                        > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                        > > > So perhaps
                        > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                        > > is
                        > > > where
                        > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                        > > > religion go with
                        > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                        > > > many ways to
                        > > > > connect.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Athena
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > www.enochian.org
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                        > > > religion of
                        > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                        > > > (presbyterian)
                        > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                        > > how
                        > > > much
                        > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                        > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                        > > is
                        > > > not
                        > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                        > > > saint
                        > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                        > > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                        > > > your
                        > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                        > > today,
                        > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                        > > closely
                        > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                        > > > both
                        > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                        > > > magic
                        > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                        > > > fourth
                        > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                        > magick
                        > > > > > [also
                        > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                        > > > purist
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > belief systems.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                        > > influences
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                        > > a
                        > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                        > > experienced
                        > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                        > > > in or
                        > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                        > > > more
                        > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                        > > tools
                        > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                        > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                        > > society,
                        > > > ones
                        > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                        > > > > > considerable
                        > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                        > > based
                        > > > on
                        > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                        > > > belief
                        > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                        > > > doing
                        > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                        > > have
                        > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                        > > from
                        > > > > > them.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > SRD
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                        > > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                        > > different
                        > > > > > > religion
                        > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                        > > > > > > successful?
                        > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                        > > of
                        > > > > > you
                        > > > > > > who
                        > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                        > > conversion
                        > > > > > was
                        > > > > > > more
                        > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                        > > > operation's
                        > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > www.enochian.org
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • daniel culver
                        Interesting.. I think the main reason I m more inclined to islam is because I just don t know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc.. Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                           
                          Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                          alright,

                          You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                          the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                          hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                          and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                          (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                          -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                          For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                          which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                          change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                          too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

                          Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                          line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                          cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                          of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                          traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                          fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

                          with best wishes
                          Georg








                          daniel culver schrieb:
                          >
                          >
                          > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                          > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
                          > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
                          > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                          >
                          > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                          >
                          > dear Daniel,
                          >
                          > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                          > to leave it unanswered.
                          >
                          > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                          > question for me.
                          >
                          > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                          > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                          > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                          > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                          > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                          > still mediaval.
                          >
                          > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                          > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                          > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                          > different approach to life and existence, than our
                          > intellectual thing.
                          >
                          > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                          > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                          > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                          > before that:
                          > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                          > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                          > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                          > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                          >
                          > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                          > and rallied against Vietnam.
                          >
                          > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                          > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                          > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                          > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                          > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                          > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                          > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                          > like breaking traditions
                          >
                          > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                          > we never have learned to verbalize!
                          >
                          > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                          > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                          > influence of the churches.
                          >
                          > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                          > even enters our spiritual life.
                          > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                          > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                          > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                          > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                          >
                          > What is the fault?
                          >
                          > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                          > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                          > breathing out?
                          > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                          > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                          > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                          >
                          > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                          > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                          > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                          > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                          >
                          > We have other clashes:
                          > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                          > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                          >
                          > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                          > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                          > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                          > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                          >
                          > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                          > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                          > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                          >
                          > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                          > much to do to stay alive.
                          >
                          > have my respect and Love
                          > Georg
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > daniel schrieb:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                          > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                          > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                          > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                          > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                          > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                          > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                          > > important to the operation.
                          > >
                          > > But I digress..
                          > >
                          > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                          > > "daniel" wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                          > > touch
                          > > > on this one a little more..lol
                          > > >
                          > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                          > > the
                          > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                          > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                          > > of
                          > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                          > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                          > > > goal.
                          > > >
                          > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                          > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                          > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                          > > > out of love.
                          > > >
                          > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                          > > islam
                          > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                          > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                          > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                          > > > stated. ;)
                          > > >
                          > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                          > > serious
                          > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                          > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                          > > structure
                          > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                          > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                          > > >
                          > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                          > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          > > , Athena wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                          > > > really
                          > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                          > > > the cover
                          > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                          > > can
                          > > > be
                          > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                          > > > backup and
                          > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                          > > > perhaps less
                          > > > > stuff to work through.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                          > > folks
                          > > > who feel
                          > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                          > > need
                          > > > getting
                          > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                          > > > this would
                          > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                          > > spirituality
                          > > > of it.
                          > > > >
                          > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                          > > > atheist either,
                          > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                          > > be
                          > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                          > > > should be my
                          > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                          > > it's
                          > > > really
                          > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                          > > > were raised
                          > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                          > > > obvious there
                          > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                          > > > to work
                          > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                          > > > So perhaps
                          > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                          > > is
                          > > > where
                          > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                          > > > religion go with
                          > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                          > > > many ways to
                          > > > > connect.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Athena
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > www.enochian.org
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                          > > > religion of
                          > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                          > > > (presbyterian)
                          > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                          > > how
                          > > > much
                          > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                          > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                          > > is
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                          > > > saint
                          > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                          > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                          > > > your
                          > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                          > > today,
                          > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                          > > closely
                          > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                          > > > both
                          > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                          > > > magic
                          > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                          > > > fourth
                          > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                          > magick
                          > > > > > [also
                          > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                          > > > purist
                          > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > belief systems.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                          > > influences
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                          > > a
                          > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                          > > experienced
                          > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                          > > > in or
                          > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                          > > > more
                          > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                          > > tools
                          > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                          > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                          > > society,
                          > > > ones
                          > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                          > > > > > considerable
                          > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                          > > based
                          > > > on
                          > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                          > > > belief
                          > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                          > > > doing
                          > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                          > > have
                          > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                          > > from
                          > > > > > them.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > SRD
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                          > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                          > > different
                          > > > > > > religion
                          > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                          > > > > > > successful?
                          > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                          > > of
                          > > > > > you
                          > > > > > > who
                          > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                          > > conversion
                          > > > > > was
                          > > > > > > more
                          > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                          > > > operation's
                          > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > www.enochian.org
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

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                        • Georg Dehn
                          hi Daniel the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah. Choosing a religion is a very private thing.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 31, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            hi Daniel

                            the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                            zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                            Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                            a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                            have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                            out in the german book, they are related to the three
                            Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                            astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                            Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                            the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                            My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                            Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                            belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                            and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                            have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                            much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                            teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                            the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                            by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                            more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                            precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                            meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                            Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                            started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                            300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                            for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                            feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                            advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                            and al Ghazzali.

                            so long
                            Do what thou wilst!

                            Georg






                            daniel culver schrieb:
                            >
                            >
                            > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                            > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                            > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                            > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                            > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                            > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                            > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                            > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                            > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                            > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                            >
                            > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                            >
                            > alright,
                            >
                            > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                            > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                            > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                            > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                            > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                            > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                            > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                            > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                            > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                            > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                            >
                            > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                            > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                            > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                            > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                            > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                            > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                            >
                            > with best wishes
                            > Georg
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > daniel culver schrieb:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                            > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                            > matter
                            > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                            > fry:
                            > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                            > >
                            > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                            > >
                            > > dear Daniel,
                            > >
                            > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                            > > to leave it unanswered.
                            > >
                            > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                            > > question for me.
                            > >
                            > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                            > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                            > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                            > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                            > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                            > > still mediaval.
                            > >
                            > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                            > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                            > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                            > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                            > > intellectual thing.
                            > >
                            > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                            > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                            > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                            > > before that:
                            > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                            > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                            > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                            > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                            > >
                            > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                            > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                            > >
                            > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                            > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                            > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                            > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                            > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                            > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                            > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                            > > like breaking traditions
                            > >
                            > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                            > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                            > >
                            > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                            > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                            > > influence of the churches.
                            > >
                            > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                            > > even enters our spiritual life.
                            > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                            > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                            > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                            > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                            > >
                            > > What is the fault?
                            > >
                            > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                            > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                            > > breathing out?
                            > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                            > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                            > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                            > >
                            > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                            > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                            > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                            > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                            > >
                            > > We have other clashes:
                            > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                            > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                            > >
                            > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                            > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                            > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                            > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                            > >
                            > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                            > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                            > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                            > >
                            > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                            > > much to do to stay alive.
                            > >
                            > > have my respect and Love
                            > > Georg
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > daniel schrieb:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                            > right
                            > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                            > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                            > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                            > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                            > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                            > making
                            > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                            > > > important to the operation.
                            > > >
                            > > > But I digress..
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                            > > > "daniel" wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                            > > > touch
                            > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                            > > > the
                            > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                            > made
                            > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                            > part
                            > > > of
                            > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                            > It had
                            > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                            > > > > goal.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                            > from
                            > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                            > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                            > itself
                            > > > > out of love.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                            > > > islam
                            > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                            > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                            > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                            > > > > stated. ;)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                            > > > serious
                            > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                            > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                            > > > structure
                            > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                            > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                            > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > , Athena wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                            > there
                            > > > > really
                            > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                            > just
                            > > > > the cover
                            > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                            > > > can
                            > > > > be
                            > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                            > > > > backup and
                            > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                            > > > > perhaps less
                            > > > > > stuff to work through.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                            > > > folks
                            > > > > who feel
                            > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                            > > > need
                            > > > > getting
                            > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                            > perhaps
                            > > > > this would
                            > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                            > > > spirituality
                            > > > > of it.
                            > > > > >
                            > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                            > raised
                            > > > > atheist either,
                            > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                            > > > be
                            > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                            > > > > should be my
                            > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                            > > > it's
                            > > > > really
                            > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                            > some who
                            > > > > were raised
                            > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                            > > > > obvious there
                            > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                            > Pagans try
                            > > > > to work
                            > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                            > etc.)
                            > > > > So perhaps
                            > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                            > > > is
                            > > > > where
                            > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                            > > > > religion go with
                            > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                            > > > > many ways to
                            > > > > > connect.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Athena
                            > > > > > --
                            > > > > > www.enochian.org
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                            > > > > religion of
                            > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                            > > > > (presbyterian)
                            > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                            > > > how
                            > > > > much
                            > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                            > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                            > that
                            > > > is
                            > > > > not
                            > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                            > exercises of
                            > > > > saint
                            > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                            > > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                            > take on
                            > > > > your
                            > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                            > > > today,
                            > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                            > > > closely
                            > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                            > Rosicrucian's,
                            > > > > both
                            > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                            > Chaos
                            > > > > magic
                            > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                            > coupled to
                            > > > > fourth
                            > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                            > > magick
                            > > > > > > [also
                            > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                            > > > > purist
                            > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > belief systems.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                            > > > influences
                            > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                            > are in
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                            > > > experienced
                            > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                            > living
                            > > > > in or
                            > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                            > thinking is
                            > > > > more
                            > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                            > > > tools
                            > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                            > like the
                            > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                            > > > society,
                            > > > > ones
                            > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                            > > > > > > considerable
                            > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                            > > > based
                            > > > > on
                            > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                            > > > > belief
                            > > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                            > working], make
                            > > > > doing
                            > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                            > > > have
                            > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                            > > > from
                            > > > > > > them.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > SRD
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                            > > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                            > > > different
                            > > > > > > > religion
                            > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                            > > > > > > > successful?
                            > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                            > those
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > > you
                            > > > > > > > who
                            > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                            > > > conversion
                            > > > > > > was
                            > > > > > > > more
                            > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                            > > > > operation's
                            > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --
                            > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                            > > > > > --
                            > > > > > www.enochian.org
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • daniel culver
                            Thanks Georg! I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 1, 2009
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                              Thanks Georg!
                               
                              I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time. Before I joined the order,however, I was making very good spiritual progress by myself with practices of the naqshbandi and listening to lectures by the grand sheikh of the naqshbandi of america. I went once, was initiated and didn't go back. The whole time I felt like it was a cult and that the sheikh was trying to control my mind. I felt partially insane for those few days. I don't think I like the setting of the tariqa very much. I have always been self-taught and that is why the abramelin operation appeals to me. No teachers are needed but the one within yourself. However, I may start taking up the practices again before I start the operation. I just don't want to get involved in the politics in the world of islam. Therefore, I don't know how much I will get involved in the community around it if I do pick it up again.

                              Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                              hi Daniel

                              the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                              zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                              Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                              a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                              have their own special "menthalities" . As I tried to point
                              out in the german book, they are related to the three
                              Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                              astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                              Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                              the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                              My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                              Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                              belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                              and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                              have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                              much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                              teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                              the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                              by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                              more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                              precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                              meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                              Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                              started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                              300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                              for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                              feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                              advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                              and al Ghazzali.

                              so long
                              Do what thou wilst!

                              Georg

                              daniel culver schrieb:
                              >
                              >
                              > Interesting. . I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                              > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                              > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                              > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                              > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                              > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                              > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                              > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                              > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                              > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                              >
                              > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                              >
                              > alright,
                              >
                              > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                              > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                              > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                              > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                              > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                              > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                              > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                              > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                              > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                              > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation) .
                              >
                              > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                              > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                              > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                              > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                              > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                              > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                              >
                              > with best wishes
                              > Georg
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > daniel culver schrieb:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                              > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                              > matter
                              > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                              > fry:
                              > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                              > >
                              > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                              > >
                              > > dear Daniel,
                              > >
                              > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                              > > to leave it unanswered.
                              > >
                              > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                              > > question for me.
                              > >
                              > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                              > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                              > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                              > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                              > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                              > > still mediaval.
                              > >
                              > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                              > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                              > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                              > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                              > > intellectual thing.
                              > >
                              > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                              > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                              > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                              > > before that:
                              > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                              > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                              > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                              > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                              > >
                              > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                              > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                              > >
                              > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                              > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                              > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                              > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                              > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                              > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                              > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                              > > like breaking traditions
                              > >
                              > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                              > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                              > >
                              > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                              > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                              > > influence of the churches.
                              > >
                              > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                              > > even enters our spiritual life.
                              > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                              > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                              > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                              > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                              > >
                              > > What is the fault?
                              > >
                              > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                              > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                              > > breathing out?
                              > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                              > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                              > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                              > >
                              > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                              > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                              > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                              > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                              > >
                              > > We have other clashes:
                              > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                              > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                              > >
                              > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                              > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                              > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                              > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                              > >
                              > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                              > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                              > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                              > >
                              > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                              > > much to do to stay alive.
                              > >
                              > > have my respect and Love
                              > > Georg
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > daniel schrieb:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                              > right
                              > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                              > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                              > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                              > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                              > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                              > making
                              > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                              > > > important to the operation.
                              > > >
                              > > > But I digress..
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com ,
                              > > > "daniel" wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                              > > > touch
                              > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                              > > > the
                              > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                              > made
                              > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                              > part
                              > > > of
                              > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                              > It had
                              > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                              > > > > goal.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                              > from
                              > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                              > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                              > itself
                              > > > > out of love.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                              > > > islam
                              > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                              > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                              > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                              > > > > stated. ;)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                              > > > serious
                              > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                              > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                              > > > structure
                              > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                              > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                              > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                              > > > , Athena wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                              > there
                              > > > > really
                              > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                              > just
                              > > > > the cover
                              > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic) . You know how accurate covers
                              > > > can
                              > > > > be
                              > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                              > > > > backup and
                              > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                              > > > > perhaps less
                              > > > > > stuff to work through.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                              > > > folks
                              > > > > who feel
                              > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                              > > > need
                              > > > > getting
                              > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                              > perhaps
                              > > > > this would
                              > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                              > > > spirituality
                              > > > > of it.
                              > > > > >
                              > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                              > raised
                              > > > > atheist either,
                              > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                              > > > be
                              > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                              > > > > should be my
                              > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                              > > > it's
                              > > > > really
                              > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                              > some who
                              > > > > were raised
                              > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                              > > > > obvious there
                              > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                              > Pagans try
                              > > > > to work
                              > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                              > etc.)
                              > > > > So perhaps
                              > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                              > > > is
                              > > > > where
                              > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                              > > > > religion go with
                              > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                              > > > > many ways to
                              > > > > > connect.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Athena
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > www.enochian. org
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                              > > > > religion of
                              > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                              > > > > (presbyterian)
                              > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                              > > > how
                              > > > > much
                              > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                              > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                              > that
                              > > > is
                              > > > > not
                              > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                              > exercises of
                              > > > > saint
                              > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                              > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, "hwhydog"
                              > > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                              > take on
                              > > > > your
                              > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                              > > > today,
                              > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                              > > > closely
                              > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                              > Rosicrucian' s,
                              > > > > both
                              > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                              > Chaos
                              > > > > magic
                              > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                              > coupled to
                              > > > > fourth
                              > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                              > > magick
                              > > > > > > [also
                              > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science] . – Non-belief is the
                              > > > > purist
                              > > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > > belief systems.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                              > > > influences
                              > > > > and
                              > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                              > are in
                              > > > a
                              > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                              > > > experienced
                              > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                              > living
                              > > > > in or
                              > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                              > thinking is
                              > > > > more
                              > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                              > > > tools
                              > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                              > like the
                              > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                              > > > society,
                              > > > > ones
                              > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                              > > > > > > considerable
                              > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                              > > > based
                              > > > > on
                              > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                              > > > > belief
                              > > > > > > and
                              > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                              > working], make
                              > > > > doing
                              > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                              > > > have
                              > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                              > > > from
                              > > > > > > them.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > SRD
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                              > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "daniel"
                              > > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                              > > > different
                              > > > > > > > religion
                              > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                              > > > > > > > successful?
                              > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                              > those
                              > > > of
                              > > > > > > you
                              > > > > > > > who
                              > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                              > > > conversion
                              > > > > > > was
                              > > > > > > > more
                              > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                              > > > > operation's
                              > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > www.enochian. org
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              begin:vcard
                              fn:Georg Dehn
                              n:Dehn;Georg
                              org;quoted-printable;quoted-printable:Verein f=C3=BCr Integrale =C3=96kologie, Araki Vlg und Magazin Shekinah;=C3=96ffentlichkeitsarbeit
                              adr;dom:;;Theresienstr. 35;Leipzig;;04129
                              email;internet:gd@...
                              tel;home:0341 391 99 87
                              note:www.roterdrache.org
                              url:www.araki.de
                              version:2.1
                              end:vcard


                            • daniel
                              Georg- Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament so maybe
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 3, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Georg-

                                Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra
                                practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament
                                so maybe getting into something like that can revive my old ties in
                                the religion..

                                Thanks
                                daniel

                                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > hi Daniel
                                >
                                > the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                                > zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.
                                >
                                > Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                                > a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                                > have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                                > out in the german book, they are related to the three
                                > Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                                > astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.
                                >
                                > Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                                > the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.
                                >
                                > My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                                > Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                                > belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                                > and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                                > have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                                > much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                                > teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                                > the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                                > by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                                > more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                                > precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                                > meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.
                                >
                                > Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                                > started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                                > 300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                                > for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                                > feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                                > advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                                > and al Ghazzali.
                                >
                                > so long
                                > Do what thou wilst!
                                >
                                > Georg
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > daniel culver schrieb:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam
                                is
                                > > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a
                                foundation
                                > > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying
                                through
                                > > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for
                                me-etc..
                                > > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm
                                basically
                                > > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers
                                and
                                > > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus
                                and
                                > > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform
                                the
                                > > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                                > > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                                > >
                                > > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                                > >
                                > > alright,
                                > >
                                > > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                                > > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                                > > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                                > > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                                > > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                                > > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                                > > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                                > > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                                > > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                                > > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                                > >
                                > > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                                > > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                                > > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                                > > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                                > > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                                > > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                                > >
                                > > with best wishes
                                > > Georg
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > daniel culver schrieb:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on
                                the anger
                                > > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion
                                doesn't
                                > > matter
                                > > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger
                                fish to
                                > > fry:
                                > > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                                > > >
                                > > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > dear Daniel,
                                > > >
                                > > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                                > > > to leave it unanswered.
                                > > >
                                > > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                                > > > question for me.
                                > > >
                                > > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                                > > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                                > > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                                > > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big
                                movement,
                                > > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                                > > > still mediaval.
                                > > >
                                > > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                                > > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed
                                since
                                > > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                                > > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                                > > > intellectual thing.
                                > > >
                                > > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                                > > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                                > > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten
                                years
                                > > > before that:
                                > > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                                > > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                                > > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                                > > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                                > > >
                                > > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear
                                transports
                                > > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                                > > >
                                > > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                                > > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                                > > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                                > > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                                > > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                                > > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                                > > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and
                                not
                                > > > like breaking traditions
                                > > >
                                > > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed,
                                that
                                > > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                                > > >
                                > > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                                > > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                                > > > influence of the churches.
                                > > >
                                > > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                                > > > even enters our spiritual life.
                                > > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                                > > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                                > > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                                > > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                                > > >
                                > > > What is the fault?
                                > > >
                                > > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                                > > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                                > > > breathing out?
                                > > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                                > > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to
                                the
                                > > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                                > > >
                                > > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                                > > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                                > > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are
                                nothing
                                > > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                                > > >
                                > > > We have other clashes:
                                > > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                                > > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                                > > >
                                > > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                                > > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They
                                perverted
                                > > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                                > > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                                > > >
                                > > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                                > > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                                > > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                                > > >
                                > > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                                > > > much to do to stay alive.
                                > > >
                                > > > have my respect and Love
                                > > > Georg
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > daniel schrieb:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide
                                what is
                                > > right
                                > > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for
                                intellectual
                                > > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of
                                islam but the
                                > > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the
                                same thing
                                > > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm
                                stuck between a
                                > > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my
                                mind is
                                > > making
                                > > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not
                                completely
                                > > > > important to the operation.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > But I digress..
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                                > > > > "daniel" wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I
                                wanted to
                                > > > > touch
                                > > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't
                                understand
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest,
                                it never
                                > > made
                                > > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and
                                may be
                                > > part
                                > > > > of
                                > > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high
                                school.
                                > > It had
                                > > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the
                                means to the
                                > > > > > goal.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more
                                sense to me
                                > > from
                                > > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and
                                helping not for
                                > > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the
                                act of
                                > > itself
                                > > > > > out of love.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the
                                same? Since
                                > > > > islam
                                > > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a
                                prophet/teacher to
                                > > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric
                                differences in
                                > > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so
                                eloquently
                                > > > > > stated. ;)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really
                                trying to be
                                > > > > serious
                                > > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily
                                life for this
                                > > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular
                                enough
                                > > > > structure
                                > > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced
                                practicing it
                                > > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep
                                subconscious beliefs.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read
                                the bible?
                                > > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in
                                some ways..
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > , Athena wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin
                                is that
                                > > there
                                > > > > > really
                                > > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are
                                perhaps
                                > > just
                                > > > > > the cover
                                > > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how
                                accurate covers
                                > > > > can
                                > > > > > be
                                > > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you
                                have the
                                > > > > > backup and
                                > > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and
                                etc. Also,
                                > > > > > perhaps less
                                > > > > > > stuff to work through.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for
                                some modern
                                > > > > folks
                                > > > > > who feel
                                > > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course
                                this would
                                > > > > need
                                > > > > > getting
                                > > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion
                                itself, but
                                > > perhaps
                                > > > > > this would
                                > > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                                > > > > spirituality
                                > > > > > of it.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion,
                                but not
                                > > raised
                                > > > > > atheist either,
                                > > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was
                                too young to
                                > > > > be
                                > > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this
                                sort of thing
                                > > > > > should be my
                                > > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest
                                for example,
                                > > > > it's
                                > > > > > really
                                > > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking
                                of
                                > > some who
                                > > > > > were raised
                                > > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things
                                that make it
                                > > > > > obvious there
                                > > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff
                                that
                                > > Pagans try
                                > > > > > to work
                                > > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing
                                magic and
                                > > etc.)
                                > > > > > So perhaps
                                > > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood
                                religion since it
                                > > > > is
                                > > > > > where
                                > > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if
                                subconsciously.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your
                                childhood
                                > > > > > religion go with
                                > > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the
                                divine, and
                                > > > > > many ways to
                                > > > > > > connect.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Athena
                                > > > > > > --
                                > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying
                                to the
                                > > > > > religion of
                                > > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the
                                church
                                > > > > > (presbyterian)
                                > > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the
                                surroundings and
                                > > > > how
                                > > > > > much
                                > > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-
                                work in
                                > > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other
                                religions- but
                                > > that
                                > > > > is
                                > > > > > not
                                > > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                                > > exercises of
                                > > > > > saint
                                > > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily
                                regimen..
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                                > > > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a
                                different
                                > > take on
                                > > > > > your
                                > > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very
                                different for us
                                > > > > today,
                                > > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists
                                were so
                                > > > > closely
                                > > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                                > > Rosicrucian's,
                                > > > > > both
                                > > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today,
                                following
                                > > Chaos
                                > > > > > magic
                                > > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                                > > coupled to
                                > > > > > fourth
                                > > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all
                                schools of
                                > > > magick
                                > > > > > > > [also
                                > > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-
                                belief is the
                                > > > > > purist
                                > > > > > > > of
                                > > > > > > > > belief systems.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such
                                subconscious
                                > > > > influences
                                > > > > > and
                                > > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling
                                that You
                                > > are in
                                > > > > a
                                > > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched
                                yet un-
                                > > > > experienced
                                > > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we
                                are not
                                > > living
                                > > > > > in or
                                > > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                                > > thinking is
                                > > > > > more
                                > > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a
                                wider array of
                                > > > > tools
                                > > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy
                                workings
                                > > like the
                                > > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free
                                from
                                > > > > society,
                                > > > > > ones
                                > > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual
                                liaison – for a
                                > > > > > > > considerable
                                > > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost
                                significance.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it
                                has to be
                                > > > > based
                                > > > > > on
                                > > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable.
                                Freedom from
                                > > > > > belief
                                > > > > > > > and
                                > > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                                > > working], make
                                > > > > > doing
                                > > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe
                                in it and
                                > > > > have
                                > > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying
                                any danger
                                > > > > from
                                > > > > > > > them.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > SRD
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                                > > > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think
                                practicing a
                                > > > > different
                                > > > > > > > > religion
                                > > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the
                                operation would be
                                > > > > > > > > successful?
                                > > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to
                                know from
                                > > those
                                > > > > of
                                > > > > > > > you
                                > > > > > > > > who
                                > > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of
                                that..?
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval
                                times the
                                > > > > conversion
                                > > > > > > > was
                                > > > > > > > > more
                                > > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful
                                to the
                                > > > > > operation's
                                > > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be
                                appreciated!
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --
                                > > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                                > > > > > > --
                                > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ------------------------------------
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
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