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Re: [abramelin] Religion and Abramelin Operation

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  • Georg Dehn
    hi Daniel this is not an intellectual question or one of gnostic experience. The problem is, that from pregnancy You are in the waves of a religious
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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      hi Daniel

      this is not an intellectual question or one of gnostic experience. The
      problem is, that from pregnancy You are in the "waves" of a religious
      influence that gives You such da deep impact. Consider pregnant wifes
      sitting in a X-mas service, in a mosque at Ramadan or a temple at the
      birthday of Lord Krishna.

      Best would be, being brought up atheist and having youre own choice and
      freedom of individual practice. It's an interesting challenge for parents.

      I am convinced, that You Abramelin meant such subconscious influences
      and what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
      harmonious world of the big line of anchestors and not in a fight of
      cultures and generations.

      Georg



      daniel schrieb:
      >
      > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different religion
      > than from childhood while working the operation would be successful?
      > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of you who
      > completed it what you think about all of that..?
      >
      > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion was more
      > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
      > results- but not so much the case for today..
      >
      > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
      >
      >
    • Scarlet
      Thelema Georg, What an excellent answer! My parents were brought up strict Welsh Baptists, however during the 60s they decided that until I was 18 I would not
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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        Thelema Georg,

        What an excellent answer!

        My parents were brought up strict Welsh Baptists, however during the 60s they decided that until I was 18 I would not follow any religion.

        I was able to invite Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Hare Krishna's, even Thelemites ;) into the house to talk to them about their religion. Though the funny thing is I seem to remember Welsh Baptist hymns 'by heart.' even though that wasn't the main part of my religious background

        I too am convinced that Abramelin was saying, "don't rebuke your ancestors, go with them."

        Will
         Love
          ALWays

        Scarlet

        On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:26 AM, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:

        hi Daniel

        this is not an intellectual question or one of gnostic experience. The
        problem is, that from pregnancy You are in the "waves" of a religious
        influence that gives You such da deep impact. Consider pregnant wifes
        sitting in a X-mas service, in a mosque at Ramadan or a temple at the
        birthday of Lord Krishna.

        Best would be, being brought up atheist and having youre own choice and
        freedom of individual practice. It's an interesting challenge for parents.

        I am convinced, that You Abramelin meant such subconscious influences
        and what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
        harmonious world of the big line of anchestors and not in a fight of
        cultures and generations.

        Georg

        daniel schrieb:


        >
        > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different religion
        > than from childhood while working the operation would be successful?
        > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of you who
        > completed it what you think about all of that..?
        >
        > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion was more
        > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
        > results- but not so much the case for today..
        >
        > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
        >
        >

      • hwhydog
        Hi Daniel, I enjoyed Georg s illustration, but have a different take on your question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today, especially as so
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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          Hi Daniel,

          I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
          question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
          especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
          linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
          deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
          and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
          dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick [also
          don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist of
          belief systems.

          Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
          what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
          harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"

          … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
          opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
          just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
          common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
          directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
          Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
          spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a considerable
          length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.

          Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
          faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief and
          allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
          the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
          unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from them.

          SRD



          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
          religion
          > than from childhood while working the operation would be
          successful?
          > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of you
          who
          > completed it what you think about all of that..?
          >
          > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion was
          more
          > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
          > results- but not so much the case for today..
          >
          > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
          >
        • daniel
          Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help! I think I understand now the importance of staying to the religion of your birth.. I am considering going back
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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            Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!

            I think I understand now the importance of staying to the religion of
            your birth.. I am considering going back to the church (presbyterian)
            I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how much
            it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
            christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is not
            true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of saint
            ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..



            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Daniel,
            >
            > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
            > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
            > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
            > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
            > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
            > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
            > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
            [also
            > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist
            of
            > belief systems.
            >
            > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
            > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
            > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
            >
            > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
            > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
            > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
            > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
            > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
            > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
            > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
            considerable
            > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
            >
            > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
            > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief
            and
            > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
            > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
            > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
            them.
            >
            > SRD
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
            > religion
            > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
            > successful?
            > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
            you
            > who
            > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
            > >
            > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
            was
            > more
            > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
            > > results- but not so much the case for today..
            > >
            > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
            > >
            >
          • templumkat
            Daniel With respect to your question, and the responses given by Georg and SRD, I would add that the Abramelin operation brings about a significant spiritual
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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              Daniel

              With respect to your question, and the responses given by Georg and
              SRD, I would add that the Abramelin operation brings about a
              significant spiritual crisis to the practitioner, and as such it is
              presented in a manner suitable to the practitioner.

              As Georg notes, one of the triumphs of the operation is that it
              appears (in my wording) to transcend cultural temporal/spatial
              constraint, and represent a universal and a-temporal reality (what
              might be a component of "spiritual" reality).

              I found that the ritual unpacked itself for the time/space in which I
              worked it, as per the French/Mathers edition, but aware of the German
              edition and other operator diaries/accounts. It matters not whether
              your constraint or environment is in the "inquisition" or the "new
              inquisition" mentioned by R.A. Wilson, or in a cave or a space
              station. The operation contains all the instructions required.

              So I would recommend re-connecting to your religious practice, as the
              Operation, should you undertake it, will inform this further, mutate
              it, and develop it in its own manner.

              I'd not comment on the belief that non-belief is possible ... LOL.
              And faith is the *evidence* of things unseen ... the Abramelin
              operation, when performed, is an absolute demonstration of faith.

              Marcus
              http://www.farawaycentre.com
              http://www.tarotprofessionals.com


              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Daniel,
              >
              > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
              > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
              > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
              > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
              > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
              > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
              > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
              [also
              > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist
              of
              > belief systems.
              >
              > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
              > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
              > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
              >
              > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
              > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
              > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
              > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
              > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
              > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
              > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
              considerable
              > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
              >
              > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
              > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief
              and
              > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
              > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
              > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
              them.
              >
              > SRD
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
              > religion
              > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
              > successful?
              > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
              you
              > who
              > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
              > >
              > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
              was
              > more
              > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
              > > results- but not so much the case for today..
              > >
              > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
              > >
              >
            • Athena
              You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there really isn t a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just the cover of the books
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 12, 2008
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                You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there really isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just the cover of the books (I'm polytheistic).  You know how accurate covers can be sometimes...  I think they recommend this so that you have the backup and support of that religion you were baptized into and etc.  Also, perhaps less stuff to work through. 

                However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern folks who feel hurt deeply by their childhood religion.  Of course this would need getting over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps this would cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the spirituality of it.

                Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised atheist either, so I got to choose.  My parents beleived that I was too young to be influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing should be my choice when I was old enough to decide.

                Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example, it's really difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who were raised Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it obvious there is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try to work through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)  So perhaps one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it is where some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.

                I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood religion go with that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and many ways to connect. 

                Athena
                --
                www.enochian.org

                On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:

                Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!

                I think I understand now the importance of staying to the religion of
                your birth.. I am considering going back to the church (presbyterian)
                I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how much
                it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is not
                true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of saint
                ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..

                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "hwhydog" <shaendorling@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Daniel,
                >
                > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on your
                > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
                > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
                > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's, both
                > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos magic
                > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to fourth
                > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                [also
                > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the purist
                of
                > belief systems.
                >
                > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences and
                > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
                > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                >
                > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
                > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living in or
                > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is more
                > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
                > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society, ones
                > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                considerable
                > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                >
                > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based on
                > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from belief
                and
                > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make doing
                > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
                > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
                them.
                >
                > SRD
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
                > religion
                > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                > successful?
                > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
                you
                > who
                > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                > >
                > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
                was
                > more
                > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the operation's
                > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                > >
                > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                > >
                >




                --
                Odo cicle qaa
                --
                www.enochian.org
              • daniel
                Since my other thread hasn t spurred much interest, I wanted to touch on this one a little more..lol I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don t
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
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                  Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to touch
                  on this one a little more..lol

                  I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand the
                  point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                  much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part of
                  the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                  nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                  goal.

                  Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                  the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                  Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                  out of love.

                  So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since islam
                  accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                  humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                  doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                  stated. ;)

                  Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be serious
                  in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                  operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough structure
                  to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                  would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.

                  For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                  This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..


                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                  really
                  > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                  the cover
                  > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers can
                  be
                  > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                  backup and
                  > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                  perhaps less
                  > stuff to work through.
                  >
                  > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern folks
                  who feel
                  > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would need
                  getting
                  > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                  this would
                  > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the spirituality
                  of it.
                  >
                  > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                  atheist either,
                  > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to be
                  > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                  should be my
                  > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                  >
                  > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example, it's
                  really
                  > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                  were raised
                  > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                  obvious there
                  > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                  to work
                  > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                  So perhaps
                  > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it is
                  where
                  > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                  >
                  > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                  religion go with
                  > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                  many ways to
                  > connect.
                  >
                  > Athena
                  > --
                  > www.enochian.org
                  >
                  > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                  > >
                  > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                  religion of
                  > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                  (presbyterian)
                  > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and how
                  much
                  > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                  > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that is
                  not
                  > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                  saint
                  > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                  > >
                  > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                  40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                  > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Daniel,
                  > > >
                  > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                  your
                  > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us today,
                  > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so closely
                  > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                  both
                  > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                  magic
                  > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                  fourth
                  > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                  > > [also
                  > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                  purist
                  > > of
                  > > > belief systems.
                  > > >
                  > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious influences
                  and
                  > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in a
                  > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                  > > >
                  > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-experienced
                  > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                  in or
                  > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                  more
                  > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of tools
                  > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                  > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from society,
                  ones
                  > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                  > > considerable
                  > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                  > > >
                  > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be based
                  on
                  > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                  belief
                  > > and
                  > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                  doing
                  > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and have
                  > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger from
                  > > them.
                  > > >
                  > > > SRD
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                  40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                  > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a different
                  > > > religion
                  > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                  > > > successful?
                  > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those of
                  > > you
                  > > > who
                  > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the conversion
                  > > was
                  > > > more
                  > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                  operation's
                  > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Odo cicle qaa
                  > --
                  > www.enochian.org
                  >
                • daniel
                  I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual understanding. I
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 18, 2008
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                    I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                    for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                    understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                    context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                    since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                    rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                    up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                    important to the operation.

                    But I digress..

                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                    touch
                    > on this one a little more..lol
                    >
                    > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                    the
                    > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                    > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                    of
                    > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                    > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                    > goal.
                    >
                    > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                    > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                    > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                    > out of love.
                    >
                    > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                    islam
                    > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                    > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                    > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                    > stated. ;)
                    >
                    > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                    serious
                    > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                    > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                    structure
                    > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                    > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                    >
                    > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                    > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                    > really
                    > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                    > the cover
                    > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                    can
                    > be
                    > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                    > backup and
                    > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                    > perhaps less
                    > > stuff to work through.
                    > >
                    > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                    folks
                    > who feel
                    > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                    need
                    > getting
                    > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                    > this would
                    > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                    spirituality
                    > of it.
                    > >
                    > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                    > atheist either,
                    > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                    be
                    > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                    > should be my
                    > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                    > >
                    > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                    it's
                    > really
                    > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                    > were raised
                    > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                    > obvious there
                    > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                    > to work
                    > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                    > So perhaps
                    > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                    is
                    > where
                    > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                    > >
                    > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                    > religion go with
                    > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                    > many ways to
                    > > connect.
                    > >
                    > > Athena
                    > > --
                    > > www.enochian.org
                    > >
                    > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                    > > >
                    > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                    > religion of
                    > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                    > (presbyterian)
                    > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                    how
                    > much
                    > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                    > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                    is
                    > not
                    > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                    > saint
                    > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                    > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi Daniel,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                    > your
                    > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                    today,
                    > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                    closely
                    > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                    > both
                    > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                    > magic
                    > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                    > fourth
                    > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                    > > > [also
                    > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                    > purist
                    > > > of
                    > > > > belief systems.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                    influences
                    > and
                    > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                    a
                    > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                    experienced
                    > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                    > in or
                    > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                    > more
                    > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                    tools
                    > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                    > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                    society,
                    > ones
                    > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                    > > > considerable
                    > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                    based
                    > on
                    > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                    > belief
                    > > > and
                    > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                    > doing
                    > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                    have
                    > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                    from
                    > > > them.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > SRD
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <abramelin%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                    > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                    different
                    > > > > religion
                    > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                    > > > > successful?
                    > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                    of
                    > > > you
                    > > > > who
                    > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                    conversion
                    > > > was
                    > > > > more
                    > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                    > operation's
                    > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Odo cicle qaa
                    > > --
                    > > www.enochian.org
                    > >
                    >
                  • Georg Dehn
                    dear Daniel, sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling to leave it unanswered. The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      dear Daniel,

                      sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                      to leave it unanswered.

                      The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                      question for me.

                      Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                      independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                      they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                      of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                      the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                      still mediaval.

                      There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                      today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                      then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                      different approach to life and existence, than our
                      intellectual thing.

                      I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                      believing family. This was in my thirties.
                      BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                      before that:
                      the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                      seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                      was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                      insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

                      So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                      and rallied against Vietnam.

                      I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                      I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                      tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                      hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                      disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                      older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                      I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                      like breaking traditions

                      Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                      we never have learned to verbalize!

                      We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                      generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                      influence of the churches.

                      You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                      even enters our spiritual life.
                      When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                      With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                      strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                      and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

                      What is the fault?

                      If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                      So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                      breathing out?
                      In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                      treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                      world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

                      This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                      thought about religions - which even come from the same
                      source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                      else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

                      We have other clashes:
                      If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                      problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

                      The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                      of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                      lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                      knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

                      Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                      defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                      said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

                      I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                      much to do to stay alive.

                      have my respect and Love
                      Georg





                      daniel schrieb:
                      >
                      >
                      > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                      > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                      > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                      > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                      > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                      > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                      > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                      > important to the operation.
                      >
                      > But I digress..
                      >
                      > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > "daniel" <danielson_07@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                      > touch
                      > > on this one a little more..lol
                      > >
                      > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                      > the
                      > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                      > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                      > of
                      > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                      > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                      > > goal.
                      > >
                      > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                      > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                      > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                      > > out of love.
                      > >
                      > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                      > islam
                      > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                      > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                      > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                      > > stated. ;)
                      > >
                      > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                      > serious
                      > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                      > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                      > structure
                      > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                      > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                      > >
                      > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                      > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com>, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                      > > really
                      > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                      > > the cover
                      > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                      > can
                      > > be
                      > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                      > > backup and
                      > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                      > > perhaps less
                      > > > stuff to work through.
                      > > >
                      > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                      > folks
                      > > who feel
                      > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                      > need
                      > > getting
                      > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                      > > this would
                      > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                      > spirituality
                      > > of it.
                      > > >
                      > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                      > > atheist either,
                      > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                      > be
                      > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                      > > should be my
                      > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                      > it's
                      > > really
                      > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                      > > were raised
                      > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                      > > obvious there
                      > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                      > > to work
                      > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                      > > So perhaps
                      > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                      > is
                      > > where
                      > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                      > > >
                      > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                      > > religion go with
                      > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                      > > many ways to
                      > > > connect.
                      > > >
                      > > > Athena
                      > > > --
                      > > > www.enochian.org
                      > > >
                      > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel <danielson_07@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                      > > religion of
                      > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                      > > (presbyterian)
                      > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                      > how
                      > > much
                      > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                      > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                      > is
                      > > not
                      > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                      > > saint
                      > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                      > > > > <shaendorling@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                      > > your
                      > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                      > today,
                      > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                      > closely
                      > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                      > > both
                      > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                      > > magic
                      > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                      > > fourth
                      > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                      > > > > [also
                      > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                      > > purist
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > belief systems.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                      > influences
                      > > and
                      > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                      > a
                      > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                      > experienced
                      > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                      > > in or
                      > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                      > > more
                      > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                      > tools
                      > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                      > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                      > society,
                      > > ones
                      > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                      > > > > considerable
                      > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                      > based
                      > > on
                      > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                      > > belief
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                      > > doing
                      > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                      > have
                      > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                      > from
                      > > > > them.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > SRD
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:abramelin%40yahoogroups.com> <abramelin%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                      > > > > <danielson_07@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                      > different
                      > > > > > religion
                      > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                      > > > > > successful?
                      > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                      > of
                      > > > > you
                      > > > > > who
                      > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                      > conversion
                      > > > > was
                      > > > > > more
                      > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                      > > operation's
                      > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > Odo cicle qaa
                      > > > --
                      > > > www.enochian.org
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • daniel culver
                      Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn t matter very much in regards
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 27, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry: like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?

                        Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                        dear Daniel,

                        sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                        to leave it unanswered.

                        The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                        question for me.

                        Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                        independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                        they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                        of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                        the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                        still mediaval.

                        There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                        today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                        then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                        different approach to life and existence, than our
                        intellectual thing.

                        I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                        believing family. This was in my thirties.
                        BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                        before that:
                        the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                        seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                        was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                        insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!

                        So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                        and rallied against Vietnam.

                        I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                        I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                        tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                        hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                        disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                        older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                        I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                        like breaking traditions

                        Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                        we never have learned to verbalize!

                        We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                        generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                        influence of the churches.

                        You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                        even enters our spiritual life.
                        When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                        With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                        strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                        and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.

                        What is the fault?

                        If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                        So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                        breathing out?
                        In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                        treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                        world that cleans and empowers Your environment.

                        This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                        thought about religions - which even come from the same
                        source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                        else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.

                        We have other clashes:
                        If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                        problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.

                        The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                        of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                        lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                        knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.

                        Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                        defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                        said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.

                        I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                        much to do to stay alive.

                        have my respect and Love
                        Georg





                        daniel schrieb:
                        >
                        >
                        > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                        > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                        > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                        > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                        > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                        > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                        > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                        > important to the operation.
                        >
                        > But I digress..
                        >
                        > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                        > "daniel" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                        > touch
                        > > on this one a little more..lol
                        > >
                        > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                        > the
                        > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                        > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                        > of
                        > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                        > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                        > > goal.
                        > >
                        > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                        > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                        > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                        > > out of love.
                        > >
                        > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                        > islam
                        > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                        > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                        > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                        > > stated. ;)
                        > >
                        > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                        > serious
                        > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                        > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                        > structure
                        > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                        > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                        > >
                        > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                        > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        > , Athena wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                        > > really
                        > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                        > > the cover
                        > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                        > can
                        > > be
                        > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                        > > backup and
                        > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                        > > perhaps less
                        > > > stuff to work through.
                        > > >
                        > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                        > folks
                        > > who feel
                        > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                        > need
                        > > getting
                        > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                        > > this would
                        > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                        > spirituality
                        > > of it.
                        > > >
                        > > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                        > > atheist either,
                        > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                        > be
                        > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                        > > should be my
                        > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                        > it's
                        > > really
                        > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                        > > were raised
                        > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                        > > obvious there
                        > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                        > > to work
                        > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                        > > So perhaps
                        > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                        > is
                        > > where
                        > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                        > > >
                        > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                        > > religion go with
                        > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                        > > many ways to
                        > > > connect.
                        > > >
                        > > > Athena
                        > > > --
                        > > > www.enochian.org
                        > > >
                        > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                        > > religion of
                        > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                        > > (presbyterian)
                        > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                        > how
                        > > much
                        > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                        > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                        > is
                        > > not
                        > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                        > > saint
                        > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                        > > your
                        > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                        > today,
                        > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                        > closely
                        > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                        > > both
                        > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                        > > magic
                        > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                        > > fourth
                        > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of magick
                        > > > > [also
                        > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                        > > purist
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > belief systems.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                        > influences
                        > > and
                        > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                        > a
                        > > > > > harmonious world of the big line of ancestors …"
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                        > experienced
                        > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                        > > in or
                        > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                        > > more
                        > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                        > tools
                        > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                        > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                        > society,
                        > > ones
                        > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                        > > > > considerable
                        > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                        > based
                        > > on
                        > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                        > > belief
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                        > > doing
                        > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                        > have
                        > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                        > from
                        > > > > them.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > SRD
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                        > different
                        > > > > > religion
                        > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                        > > > > > successful?
                        > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                        > of
                        > > > > you
                        > > > > > who
                        > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                        > conversion
                        > > > > was
                        > > > > > more
                        > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                        > > operation's
                        > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --
                        > > > Odo cicle qaa
                        > > > --
                        > > > www.enochian.org
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >

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                      • Georg Dehn
                        alright, You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and hints. The most radical he
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          alright,

                          You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                          the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                          hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                          and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                          (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                          -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                          For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                          which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                          change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                          too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

                          Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                          line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                          cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                          of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                          traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                          fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

                          with best wishes
                          Georg








                          daniel culver schrieb:
                          >
                          >
                          > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                          > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
                          > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
                          > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                          >
                          > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                          >
                          > dear Daniel,
                          >
                          > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                          > to leave it unanswered.
                          >
                          > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                          > question for me.
                          >
                          > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                          > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                          > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                          > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                          > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                          > still mediaval.
                          >
                          > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                          > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                          > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                          > different approach to life and existence, than our
                          > intellectual thing.
                          >
                          > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                          > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                          > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                          > before that:
                          > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                          > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                          > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                          > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                          >
                          > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                          > and rallied against Vietnam.
                          >
                          > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                          > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                          > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                          > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                          > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                          > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                          > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                          > like breaking traditions
                          >
                          > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                          > we never have learned to verbalize!
                          >
                          > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                          > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                          > influence of the churches.
                          >
                          > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                          > even enters our spiritual life.
                          > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                          > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                          > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                          > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                          >
                          > What is the fault?
                          >
                          > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                          > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                          > breathing out?
                          > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                          > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                          > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                          >
                          > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                          > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                          > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                          > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                          >
                          > We have other clashes:
                          > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                          > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                          >
                          > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                          > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                          > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                          > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                          >
                          > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                          > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                          > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                          >
                          > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                          > much to do to stay alive.
                          >
                          > have my respect and Love
                          > Georg
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > daniel schrieb:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                          > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                          > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                          > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                          > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                          > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                          > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                          > > important to the operation.
                          > >
                          > > But I digress..
                          > >
                          > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                          > > "daniel" wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                          > > touch
                          > > > on this one a little more..lol
                          > > >
                          > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                          > > the
                          > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                          > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                          > > of
                          > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                          > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                          > > > goal.
                          > > >
                          > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                          > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                          > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                          > > > out of love.
                          > > >
                          > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                          > > islam
                          > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                          > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                          > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                          > > > stated. ;)
                          > > >
                          > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                          > > serious
                          > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                          > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                          > > structure
                          > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                          > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                          > > >
                          > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                          > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          > > , Athena wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                          > > > really
                          > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                          > > > the cover
                          > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                          > > can
                          > > > be
                          > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                          > > > backup and
                          > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                          > > > perhaps less
                          > > > > stuff to work through.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                          > > folks
                          > > > who feel
                          > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                          > > need
                          > > > getting
                          > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                          > > > this would
                          > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                          > > spirituality
                          > > > of it.
                          > > > >
                          > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                          > > > atheist either,
                          > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                          > > be
                          > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                          > > > should be my
                          > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                          > > it's
                          > > > really
                          > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                          > > > were raised
                          > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                          > > > obvious there
                          > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                          > > > to work
                          > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                          > > > So perhaps
                          > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                          > > is
                          > > > where
                          > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                          > > > religion go with
                          > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                          > > > many ways to
                          > > > > connect.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Athena
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > www.enochian.org
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                          > > > religion of
                          > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                          > > > (presbyterian)
                          > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                          > > how
                          > > > much
                          > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                          > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                          > > is
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                          > > > saint
                          > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                          > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                          > > > your
                          > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                          > > today,
                          > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                          > > closely
                          > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                          > > > both
                          > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                          > > > magic
                          > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                          > > > fourth
                          > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                          > magick
                          > > > > > [also
                          > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                          > > > purist
                          > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > belief systems.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                          > > influences
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                          > > a
                          > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                          > > experienced
                          > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                          > > > in or
                          > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                          > > > more
                          > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                          > > tools
                          > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                          > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                          > > society,
                          > > > ones
                          > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                          > > > > > considerable
                          > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                          > > based
                          > > > on
                          > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                          > > > belief
                          > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                          > > > doing
                          > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                          > > have
                          > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                          > > from
                          > > > > > them.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > SRD
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                          > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                          > > different
                          > > > > > > religion
                          > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                          > > > > > > successful?
                          > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                          > > of
                          > > > > > you
                          > > > > > > who
                          > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                          > > conversion
                          > > > > > was
                          > > > > > > more
                          > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                          > > > operation's
                          > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > www.enochian.org
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • daniel culver
                          Interesting.. I think the main reason I m more inclined to islam is because I just don t know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 28, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc.. Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                             
                            Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                            alright,

                            You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                            the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                            hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                            and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                            (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                            -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                            For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                            which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                            change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                            too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).

                            Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                            line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                            cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                            of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                            traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                            fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.

                            with best wishes
                            Georg








                            daniel culver schrieb:
                            >
                            >
                            > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                            > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't matter
                            > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to fry:
                            > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                            >
                            > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                            >
                            > dear Daniel,
                            >
                            > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                            > to leave it unanswered.
                            >
                            > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                            > question for me.
                            >
                            > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                            > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                            > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                            > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                            > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                            > still mediaval.
                            >
                            > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                            > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                            > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                            > different approach to life and existence, than our
                            > intellectual thing.
                            >
                            > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                            > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                            > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                            > before that:
                            > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                            > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                            > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                            > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                            >
                            > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                            > and rallied against Vietnam.
                            >
                            > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                            > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                            > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                            > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                            > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                            > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                            > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                            > like breaking traditions
                            >
                            > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                            > we never have learned to verbalize!
                            >
                            > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                            > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                            > influence of the churches.
                            >
                            > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                            > even enters our spiritual life.
                            > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                            > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                            > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                            > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                            >
                            > What is the fault?
                            >
                            > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                            > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                            > breathing out?
                            > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                            > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                            > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                            >
                            > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                            > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                            > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                            > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                            >
                            > We have other clashes:
                            > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                            > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                            >
                            > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                            > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                            > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                            > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                            >
                            > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                            > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                            > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                            >
                            > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                            > much to do to stay alive.
                            >
                            > have my respect and Love
                            > Georg
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > daniel schrieb:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is right
                            > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                            > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                            > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                            > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                            > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is making
                            > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                            > > important to the operation.
                            > >
                            > > But I digress..
                            > >
                            > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                            > > "daniel" wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                            > > touch
                            > > > on this one a little more..lol
                            > > >
                            > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                            > > the
                            > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never made
                            > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be part
                            > > of
                            > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school. It had
                            > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                            > > > goal.
                            > > >
                            > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me from
                            > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                            > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of itself
                            > > > out of love.
                            > > >
                            > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                            > > islam
                            > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                            > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                            > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                            > > > stated. ;)
                            > > >
                            > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                            > > serious
                            > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                            > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                            > > structure
                            > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                            > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                            > > >
                            > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                            > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                            > > , Athena wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that there
                            > > > really
                            > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps just
                            > > > the cover
                            > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                            > > can
                            > > > be
                            > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                            > > > backup and
                            > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                            > > > perhaps less
                            > > > > stuff to work through.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                            > > folks
                            > > > who feel
                            > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                            > > need
                            > > > getting
                            > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but perhaps
                            > > > this would
                            > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                            > > spirituality
                            > > > of it.
                            > > > >
                            > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not raised
                            > > > atheist either,
                            > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                            > > be
                            > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                            > > > should be my
                            > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                            > > it's
                            > > > really
                            > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of some who
                            > > > were raised
                            > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                            > > > obvious there
                            > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that Pagans try
                            > > > to work
                            > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and etc.)
                            > > > So perhaps
                            > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                            > > is
                            > > > where
                            > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                            > > > religion go with
                            > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                            > > > many ways to
                            > > > > connect.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Athena
                            > > > > --
                            > > > > www.enochian.org
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                            > > > religion of
                            > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                            > > > (presbyterian)
                            > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                            > > how
                            > > > much
                            > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                            > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but that
                            > > is
                            > > > not
                            > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual exercises of
                            > > > saint
                            > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                            > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different take on
                            > > > your
                            > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                            > > today,
                            > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                            > > closely
                            > > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the Rosicrucian's,
                            > > > both
                            > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following Chaos
                            > > > magic
                            > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley, coupled to
                            > > > fourth
                            > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                            > magick
                            > > > > > [also
                            > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                            > > > purist
                            > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > belief systems.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                            > > influences
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You are in
                            > > a
                            > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                            > > experienced
                            > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not living
                            > > > in or
                            > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and thinking is
                            > > > more
                            > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                            > > tools
                            > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings like the
                            > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                            > > society,
                            > > > ones
                            > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                            > > > > > considerable
                            > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                            > > based
                            > > > on
                            > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                            > > > belief
                            > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin working], make
                            > > > doing
                            > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                            > > have
                            > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                            > > from
                            > > > > > them.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > SRD
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "daniel"
                            > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                            > > different
                            > > > > > > religion
                            > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                            > > > > > > successful?
                            > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from those
                            > > of
                            > > > > > you
                            > > > > > > who
                            > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                            > > conversion
                            > > > > > was
                            > > > > > > more
                            > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                            > > > operation's
                            > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --
                            > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                            > > > > --
                            > > > > www.enochian.org
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

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                          • Georg Dehn
                            hi Daniel the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah. Choosing a religion is a very private thing.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 31, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              hi Daniel

                              the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                              zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                              Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                              a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                              have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                              out in the german book, they are related to the three
                              Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                              astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                              Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                              the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                              My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                              Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                              belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                              and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                              have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                              much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                              teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                              the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                              by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                              more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                              precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                              meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                              Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                              started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                              300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                              for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                              feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                              advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                              and al Ghazzali.

                              so long
                              Do what thou wilst!

                              Georg






                              daniel culver schrieb:
                              >
                              >
                              > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                              > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                              > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                              > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                              > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                              > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                              > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                              > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                              > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                              > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                              >
                              > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                              >
                              > alright,
                              >
                              > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                              > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                              > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                              > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                              > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                              > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                              > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                              > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                              > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                              > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                              >
                              > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                              > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                              > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                              > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                              > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                              > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                              >
                              > with best wishes
                              > Georg
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > daniel culver schrieb:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                              > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                              > matter
                              > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                              > fry:
                              > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                              > >
                              > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                              > >
                              > > dear Daniel,
                              > >
                              > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                              > > to leave it unanswered.
                              > >
                              > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                              > > question for me.
                              > >
                              > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                              > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                              > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                              > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                              > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                              > > still mediaval.
                              > >
                              > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                              > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                              > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                              > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                              > > intellectual thing.
                              > >
                              > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                              > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                              > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                              > > before that:
                              > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                              > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                              > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                              > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                              > >
                              > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                              > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                              > >
                              > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                              > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                              > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                              > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                              > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                              > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                              > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                              > > like breaking traditions
                              > >
                              > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                              > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                              > >
                              > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                              > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                              > > influence of the churches.
                              > >
                              > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                              > > even enters our spiritual life.
                              > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                              > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                              > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                              > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                              > >
                              > > What is the fault?
                              > >
                              > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                              > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                              > > breathing out?
                              > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                              > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                              > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                              > >
                              > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                              > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                              > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                              > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                              > >
                              > > We have other clashes:
                              > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                              > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                              > >
                              > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                              > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                              > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                              > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                              > >
                              > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                              > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                              > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                              > >
                              > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                              > > much to do to stay alive.
                              > >
                              > > have my respect and Love
                              > > Georg
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > daniel schrieb:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                              > right
                              > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                              > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                              > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                              > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                              > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                              > making
                              > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                              > > > important to the operation.
                              > > >
                              > > > But I digress..
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                              > > > "daniel" wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                              > > > touch
                              > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                              > > > the
                              > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                              > made
                              > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                              > part
                              > > > of
                              > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                              > It had
                              > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                              > > > > goal.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                              > from
                              > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                              > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                              > itself
                              > > > > out of love.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                              > > > islam
                              > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                              > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                              > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                              > > > > stated. ;)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                              > > > serious
                              > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                              > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                              > > > structure
                              > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                              > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                              > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > , Athena wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                              > there
                              > > > > really
                              > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                              > just
                              > > > > the cover
                              > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how accurate covers
                              > > > can
                              > > > > be
                              > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                              > > > > backup and
                              > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                              > > > > perhaps less
                              > > > > > stuff to work through.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                              > > > folks
                              > > > > who feel
                              > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                              > > > need
                              > > > > getting
                              > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                              > perhaps
                              > > > > this would
                              > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                              > > > spirituality
                              > > > > of it.
                              > > > > >
                              > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                              > raised
                              > > > > atheist either,
                              > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                              > > > be
                              > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                              > > > > should be my
                              > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                              > > > it's
                              > > > > really
                              > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                              > some who
                              > > > > were raised
                              > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                              > > > > obvious there
                              > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                              > Pagans try
                              > > > > to work
                              > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                              > etc.)
                              > > > > So perhaps
                              > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                              > > > is
                              > > > > where
                              > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                              > > > > religion go with
                              > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                              > > > > many ways to
                              > > > > > connect.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Athena
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > www.enochian.org
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                              > > > > religion of
                              > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                              > > > > (presbyterian)
                              > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                              > > > how
                              > > > > much
                              > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                              > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                              > that
                              > > > is
                              > > > > not
                              > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                              > exercises of
                              > > > > saint
                              > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                              > > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                              > take on
                              > > > > your
                              > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                              > > > today,
                              > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                              > > > closely
                              > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                              > Rosicrucian's,
                              > > > > both
                              > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                              > Chaos
                              > > > > magic
                              > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                              > coupled to
                              > > > > fourth
                              > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                              > > magick
                              > > > > > > [also
                              > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-belief is the
                              > > > > purist
                              > > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > > belief systems.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                              > > > influences
                              > > > > and
                              > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                              > are in
                              > > > a
                              > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                              > > > experienced
                              > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                              > living
                              > > > > in or
                              > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                              > thinking is
                              > > > > more
                              > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                              > > > tools
                              > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                              > like the
                              > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                              > > > society,
                              > > > > ones
                              > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                              > > > > > > considerable
                              > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                              > > > based
                              > > > > on
                              > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                              > > > > belief
                              > > > > > > and
                              > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                              > working], make
                              > > > > doing
                              > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                              > > > have
                              > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                              > > > from
                              > > > > > > them.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > SRD
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                              > > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                              > > > different
                              > > > > > > > religion
                              > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                              > > > > > > > successful?
                              > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                              > those
                              > > > of
                              > > > > > > you
                              > > > > > > > who
                              > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                              > > > conversion
                              > > > > > > was
                              > > > > > > > more
                              > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                              > > > > operation's
                              > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > www.enochian.org
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • daniel culver
                              Thanks Georg! I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                Thanks Georg!
                                 
                                I am actually not practicing right now. About a year ago when I had joined a local sufi order(halveti-jerrahi) where I was living at the time. Before I joined the order,however, I was making very good spiritual progress by myself with practices of the naqshbandi and listening to lectures by the grand sheikh of the naqshbandi of america. I went once, was initiated and didn't go back. The whole time I felt like it was a cult and that the sheikh was trying to control my mind. I felt partially insane for those few days. I don't think I like the setting of the tariqa very much. I have always been self-taught and that is why the abramelin operation appeals to me. No teachers are needed but the one within yourself. However, I may start taking up the practices again before I start the operation. I just don't want to get involved in the politics in the world of islam. Therefore, I don't know how much I will get involved in the community around it if I do pick it up again.

                                Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                                hi Daniel

                                the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                                zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.

                                Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                                a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                                have their own special "menthalities" . As I tried to point
                                out in the german book, they are related to the three
                                Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                                astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.

                                Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                                the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.

                                My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                                Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                                belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                                and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                                have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                                much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                                teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                                the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                                by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                                more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                                precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                                meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.

                                Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                                started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                                300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                                for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                                feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                                advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                                and al Ghazzali.

                                so long
                                Do what thou wilst!

                                Georg

                                daniel culver schrieb:
                                >
                                >
                                > Interesting. . I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam is
                                > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a foundation
                                > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying through
                                > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for me-etc..
                                > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm basically
                                > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers and
                                > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus and
                                > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform the
                                > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                                > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                                >
                                > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                                >
                                > alright,
                                >
                                > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                                > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                                > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                                > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                                > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                                > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                                > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                                > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                                > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                                > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation) .
                                >
                                > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                                > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                                > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                                > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                                > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                                > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                                >
                                > with best wishes
                                > Georg
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > daniel culver schrieb:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on the anger
                                > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion doesn't
                                > matter
                                > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger fish to
                                > fry:
                                > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                                > >
                                > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                                > >
                                > > dear Daniel,
                                > >
                                > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                                > > to leave it unanswered.
                                > >
                                > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                                > > question for me.
                                > >
                                > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                                > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                                > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                                > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big movement,
                                > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                                > > still mediaval.
                                > >
                                > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                                > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed since
                                > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                                > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                                > > intellectual thing.
                                > >
                                > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                                > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                                > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten years
                                > > before that:
                                > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                                > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                                > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                                > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                                > >
                                > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear transports
                                > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                                > >
                                > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                                > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                                > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                                > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                                > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                                > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                                > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and not
                                > > like breaking traditions
                                > >
                                > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed, that
                                > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                                > >
                                > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                                > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                                > > influence of the churches.
                                > >
                                > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                                > > even enters our spiritual life.
                                > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                                > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                                > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                                > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                                > >
                                > > What is the fault?
                                > >
                                > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                                > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                                > > breathing out?
                                > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                                > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to the
                                > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                                > >
                                > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                                > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                                > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are nothing
                                > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                                > >
                                > > We have other clashes:
                                > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                                > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                                > >
                                > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                                > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They perverted
                                > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                                > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                                > >
                                > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                                > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                                > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                                > >
                                > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                                > > much to do to stay alive.
                                > >
                                > > have my respect and Love
                                > > Georg
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > daniel schrieb:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide what is
                                > right
                                > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for intellectual
                                > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of islam but the
                                > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the same thing
                                > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm stuck between a
                                > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my mind is
                                > making
                                > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not completely
                                > > > important to the operation.
                                > > >
                                > > > But I digress..
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com ,
                                > > > "daniel" wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I wanted to
                                > > > touch
                                > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't understand
                                > > > the
                                > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest, it never
                                > made
                                > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and may be
                                > part
                                > > > of
                                > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high school.
                                > It had
                                > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the means to the
                                > > > > goal.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more sense to me
                                > from
                                > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and helping not for
                                > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the act of
                                > itself
                                > > > > out of love.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the same? Since
                                > > > islam
                                > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a prophet/teacher to
                                > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric differences in
                                > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so eloquently
                                > > > > stated. ;)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really trying to be
                                > > > serious
                                > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily life for this
                                > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular enough
                                > > > structure
                                > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced practicing it
                                > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep subconscious beliefs.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read the bible?
                                > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in some ways..
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > > > , Athena wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin is that
                                > there
                                > > > > really
                                > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are perhaps
                                > just
                                > > > > the cover
                                > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic) . You know how accurate covers
                                > > > can
                                > > > > be
                                > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you have the
                                > > > > backup and
                                > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and etc. Also,
                                > > > > perhaps less
                                > > > > > stuff to work through.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for some modern
                                > > > folks
                                > > > > who feel
                                > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course this would
                                > > > need
                                > > > > getting
                                > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion itself, but
                                > perhaps
                                > > > > this would
                                > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                                > > > spirituality
                                > > > > of it.
                                > > > > >
                                > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion, but not
                                > raised
                                > > > > atheist either,
                                > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was too young to
                                > > > be
                                > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this sort of thing
                                > > > > should be my
                                > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest for example,
                                > > > it's
                                > > > > really
                                > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking of
                                > some who
                                > > > > were raised
                                > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things that make it
                                > > > > obvious there
                                > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff that
                                > Pagans try
                                > > > > to work
                                > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing magic and
                                > etc.)
                                > > > > So perhaps
                                > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood religion since it
                                > > > is
                                > > > > where
                                > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if subconsciously.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your childhood
                                > > > > religion go with
                                > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the divine, and
                                > > > > many ways to
                                > > > > > connect.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Athena
                                > > > > > --
                                > > > > > www.enochian. org
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying to the
                                > > > > religion of
                                > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the church
                                > > > > (presbyterian)
                                > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the surroundings and
                                > > > how
                                > > > > much
                                > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-work in
                                > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other religions- but
                                > that
                                > > > is
                                > > > > not
                                > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                                > exercises of
                                > > > > saint
                                > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily regimen..
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, "hwhydog"
                                > > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a different
                                > take on
                                > > > > your
                                > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very different for us
                                > > > today,
                                > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists were so
                                > > > closely
                                > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                                > Rosicrucian' s,
                                > > > > both
                                > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today, following
                                > Chaos
                                > > > > magic
                                > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                                > coupled to
                                > > > > fourth
                                > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all schools of
                                > > magick
                                > > > > > > [also
                                > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science] . – Non-belief is the
                                > > > > purist
                                > > > > > > of
                                > > > > > > > belief systems.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such subconscious
                                > > > influences
                                > > > > and
                                > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling that You
                                > are in
                                > > > a
                                > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched yet un-
                                > > > experienced
                                > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we are not
                                > living
                                > > > > in or
                                > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                                > thinking is
                                > > > > more
                                > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a wider array of
                                > > > tools
                                > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy workings
                                > like the
                                > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free from
                                > > > society,
                                > > > > ones
                                > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual liaison – for a
                                > > > > > > considerable
                                > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost significance.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it has to be
                                > > > based
                                > > > > on
                                > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable. Freedom from
                                > > > > belief
                                > > > > > > and
                                > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                                > working], make
                                > > > > doing
                                > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe in it and
                                > > > have
                                > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying any danger
                                > > > from
                                > > > > > > them.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > SRD
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "daniel"
                                > > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think practicing a
                                > > > different
                                > > > > > > > religion
                                > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the operation would be
                                > > > > > > > successful?
                                > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to know from
                                > those
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > > you
                                > > > > > > > who
                                > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of that..?
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval times the
                                > > > conversion
                                > > > > > > was
                                > > > > > > > more
                                > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful to the
                                > > > > operation's
                                > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be appreciated!
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --
                                > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                                > > > > > --
                                > > > > > www.enochian. org
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                begin:vcard
                                fn:Georg Dehn
                                n:Dehn;Georg
                                org;quoted-printable;quoted-printable:Verein f=C3=BCr Integrale =C3=96kologie, Araki Vlg und Magazin Shekinah;=C3=96ffentlichkeitsarbeit
                                adr;dom:;;Theresienstr. 35;Leipzig;;04129
                                email;internet:gd@...
                                tel;home:0341 391 99 87
                                note:www.roterdrache.org
                                url:www.araki.de
                                version:2.1
                                end:vcard


                              • daniel
                                Georg- Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament so maybe
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 3, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Georg-

                                  Can you please refer me to a book or link that explains these mantra
                                  practices related to christianity? Repitition is more my temperament
                                  so maybe getting into something like that can revive my old ties in
                                  the religion..

                                  Thanks
                                  daniel

                                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Georg Dehn <gd@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > hi Daniel
                                  >
                                  > the advice in book three is praying. So, good idea to make
                                  > zikre. Or to continue the 99 names of Allah.
                                  >
                                  > Choosing a religion is a very private thing. You cannot make
                                  > a rule out of it. In fact the three monotheistic sisters
                                  > have their own special "menthalities". As I tried to point
                                  > out in the german book, they are related to the three
                                  > Arcprinciple. In that context it is easier to take the
                                  > astrological definitions: Fixed, Movable and Cardinal.
                                  >
                                  > Islam surely is the reign of Diszipline, such as Jewdom is
                                  > the thing of the Law and Christianity the Feeling.
                                  >
                                  > My own approach is, or was, to try out everything. I had a
                                  > Sufi time in the egyptian years, visitung the tarikat
                                  > belonging to Hussein Mosque in the Basars of Cairo. Before
                                  > and After I did Indian mantrams. And some christian wings
                                  > have a mantramrelated discipled work of praying. You learn
                                  > much about this on a very neutral base at Rudolf Steiner's
                                  > teachings about and around his Eurythm. A great exercise is
                                  > the Lotus "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" of 'Nichiren Dai Shonin, who
                                  > by the way was contemporarian to Abramelin. Maybe he carries
                                  > more opf the energy of that time and helps resolve many
                                  > precious insights which are heritage from that Pluto/Neptun
                                  > meeting of around 1400 which only happens each 500 years.
                                  >
                                  > Islam is an interesting political thing. Because they
                                  > started with a tremendously liberal period that lasted about
                                  > 300 years. They explored everything. It is a pitty, that -
                                  > for my private experience - only the individual spiritual
                                  > feeling for tolerance remained. Much of their avantgardistic
                                  > advance has disappeared. Change came in the times of Rumi
                                  > and al Ghazzali.
                                  >
                                  > so long
                                  > Do what thou wilst!
                                  >
                                  > Georg
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > daniel culver schrieb:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Interesting.. I think the main reason I'm more inclined to islam
                                  is
                                  > > because I just don't know how to approach chistianity as a
                                  foundation
                                  > > for spiritual progress. It doesn't seem natural to me praying
                                  through
                                  > > someone else, or going to church and having a minister pray for
                                  me-etc..
                                  > > Islam is great because there is discpline inherit in it. I'm
                                  basically
                                  > > asking all of this because I feel like the 5 times a day prayers
                                  and
                                  > > zikr (rememberance of god on beads etc) will really help me focus
                                  and
                                  > > give my mind something pious to concentrate on while I perform
                                  the
                                  > > abramelin operation. Instead of just sitting around and reading
                                  > > -or twiddling my thumbs! :p
                                  > >
                                  > > */Georg Dehn <gd@...>/* wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > alright,
                                  > >
                                  > > You find it without any psychology necessary, spread over
                                  > > the text of Book One and Four. So many small comments and
                                  > > hints. The most radical he expresses it, meating Abramelin
                                  > > and talks about the inhuman lifestyle in "our cities". Ähem:
                                  > > (The biggest town of Germany in 15th century was Cologn
                                  > > -Köln- with about 7000 inhabitants. Worms nearly the same.
                                  > > For the Reichstag in Nürnberg when they expected Luther
                                  > > which was just 100 years after Abraham v W they had to
                                  > > change to that wider place of Worms, because Nürnberg was
                                  > > too dense and didn't have enough pubs and accomodation).
                                  > >
                                  > > Bythe way, tradition that his son should stay to, was the
                                  > > line of the classical forefathers. Presuming there is
                                  > > cabbalistical knowledge in the text (like choosing the name
                                  > > of Lamech - 777 - for his son) You will recognize, that his
                                  > > traditional thought is even kind of allegoric and not so
                                  > > fundamentalist, as it looks at first glance.
                                  > >
                                  > > with best wishes
                                  > > Georg
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > daniel culver schrieb:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Wow.. excellent response Georg. I completely feel you on
                                  the anger
                                  > > > towards our hypocritical society. So in short, religion
                                  doesn't
                                  > > matter
                                  > > > very much in regards to this operation- there are bigger
                                  fish to
                                  > > fry:
                                  > > > like our own false perceptions and behaviors..?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > */Georg Dehn /* wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > dear Daniel,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > sorry, I had a busy time but Your question is too thrilling
                                  > > > to leave it unanswered.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The religion thing and the traditions have always been a
                                  > > > question for me.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Abraham from Worms and Abramelin, modern thought and
                                  > > > independent lifestyle, but they lived not in modern times,
                                  > > > they lived long before age of illumination. Though thoughts
                                  > > > of Renaissance have had their times then and a big
                                  movement,
                                  > > > the lifestyle and traditional habits of the people were
                                  > > > still mediaval.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There have been several huge steps in culture done until
                                  > > > today and even the bigger cultural epochs have changed
                                  since
                                  > > > then. They belonged to another world, which had a very
                                  > > > different approach to life and existence, than our
                                  > > > intellectual thing.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I quit from Protestant Church as a member of a very deep
                                  > > > believing family. This was in my thirties.
                                  > > > BUT what had made me black sheep of the family was ten
                                  years
                                  > > > before that:
                                  > > > the fact, that I was consciousness objecter in early
                                  > > > seventies caused shame in their "peer group",
                                  > > > was the fact, that I said: shit on Your money and
                                  > > > insurances, hypocrit lifestyle and neurotic familyfassades!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > So what? I lived in communes, I sabotaged nuclear
                                  transports
                                  > > > and rallied against Vietnam.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I never had the feeling to leave any kind of tradition, for
                                  > > > I saw it all is "only" opinions and misguiding. Instead of
                                  > > > tradition there is believe in policy and market and social
                                  > > > hierarchy. I was so angry. Living in the trust that we
                                  > > > disappeared Nazitime, I realized with my years growing
                                  > > > older, that the emotional task had not been solved.
                                  > > > I always felt like a guardian of old European values and
                                  not
                                  > > > like breaking traditions
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Since 1400 things deep in our minds and hearts changed,
                                  that
                                  > > > we never have learned to verbalize!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > We are trapped in the dualistic game which I think was
                                  > > > generated by economics on a level, far away from the bad
                                  > > > influence of the churches.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > You give and take. You have credit and debit. This thinking
                                  > > > even enters our spiritual life.
                                  > > > When I learned Yoga the teacher said:
                                  > > > With every breath I take in Prana which means health,
                                  > > > strength, positve waves a.s.o.
                                  > > > and breathing out I give away anger and disease etc.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What is the fault?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If You breath in health, no disease stays there!
                                  > > > So why spread disease with the power of Your thought while
                                  > > > breathing out?
                                  > > > In a holistic way, You can even say that breath which is
                                  > > > treated with conscious and power gives something back to
                                  the
                                  > > > world that cleans and empowers Your environment.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This thinking is a bigger clash of cultures than any false
                                  > > > thought about religions - which even come from the same
                                  > > > source. From the mosaic point of view "we three" are
                                  nothing
                                  > > > else than confessions for the same metaphysical power.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > We have other clashes:
                                  > > > If Your parents where deeply atheistic. There might be a
                                  > > > problem to start spiritual practice. Or so.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The clashes nowadays come from fundamentalism. This culture
                                  > > > of fear is so deeply, that it splits society. They
                                  perverted
                                  > > > lifestyles, claiming it were traditions. They lie wihtout
                                  > > > knowing it, this is the modern tragedy.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Almost everything which is related to values has to be
                                  > > > defined new and this is the real meaning of what has been
                                  > > > said about channging of paradigms in the eighties.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I just stop here. It's in the middle of the week and too
                                  > > > much to do to stay alive.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > have my respect and Love
                                  > > > Georg
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > daniel schrieb:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I clearly have more introspection to do before I decide
                                  what is
                                  > > right
                                  > > > > for me.. And as Georg said, this is not a matter for
                                  intellectual
                                  > > > > understanding. I suppose I can take the approach of
                                  islam but the
                                  > > > > context of christianity and still be basically doing the
                                  same thing
                                  > > > > since all religions are truly one.. I feel like I'm
                                  stuck between a
                                  > > > > rock and a hard place- both of which are illusions my
                                  mind is
                                  > > making
                                  > > > > up to make me concerned about things that are not
                                  completely
                                  > > > > important to the operation.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > But I digress..
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com ,
                                  > > > > "daniel" wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Since my other thread hasn't spurred much interest, I
                                  wanted to
                                  > > > > touch
                                  > > > > > on this one a little more..lol
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I am still comfortable with christianity, I just don't
                                  understand
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > point of praying THROUGH Jesus to God. To be honest,
                                  it never
                                  > > made
                                  > > > > > much sense when I was growing up with it as a kid, and
                                  may be
                                  > > part
                                  > > > > of
                                  > > > > > the reason I stopped practicing when I entered high
                                  school.
                                  > > It had
                                  > > > > > nothing to do with the practitioners so much as the
                                  means to the
                                  > > > > > goal.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Several years later, islam (and sufism) made more
                                  sense to me
                                  > > from
                                  > > > > > the POV of pure devotion. The idea of praying and
                                  helping not for
                                  > > > > > Jesus or any of the saints/prophets etc., but for the
                                  act of
                                  > > itself
                                  > > > > > out of love.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > So wouldn't the intentions and result still be the
                                  same? Since
                                  > > > > islam
                                  > > > > > accepts Jesus as miraculous of birth and a
                                  prophet/teacher to
                                  > > > > > humanity; the only changes are minor exoteric
                                  differences in
                                  > > > > > doctrine, right? Like the cover of the book- as you so
                                  eloquently
                                  > > > > > stated. ;)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Let me know if I'm being silly here.. I'm really
                                  trying to be
                                  > > > > serious
                                  > > > > > in trying to decide on a good structure in my daily
                                  life for this
                                  > > > > > operation. I feel like islam could give me a regular
                                  enough
                                  > > > > structure
                                  > > > > > to achieve this. I'm just not completely convinced
                                  practicing it
                                  > > > > > would 'go against my ancestors' or my deep
                                  subconscious beliefs.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > For example, couldn't I still practice sufism and read
                                  the bible?
                                  > > > > > This would still be actively accepting the beliefs in
                                  some ways..
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > , Athena wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > You know, one thing I experienced during Abramelin
                                  is that
                                  > > there
                                  > > > > > really
                                  > > > > > > isn't a huge difference amongst religions, they are
                                  perhaps
                                  > > just
                                  > > > > > the cover
                                  > > > > > > of the books (I'm polytheistic). You know how
                                  accurate covers
                                  > > > > can
                                  > > > > > be
                                  > > > > > > sometimes... I think they recommend this so that you
                                  have the
                                  > > > > > backup and
                                  > > > > > > support of that religion you were baptized into and
                                  etc. Also,
                                  > > > > > perhaps less
                                  > > > > > > stuff to work through.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > However on the otherhand, it may be difficult for
                                  some modern
                                  > > > > folks
                                  > > > > > who feel
                                  > > > > > > hurt deeply by their childhood religion. Of course
                                  this would
                                  > > > > need
                                  > > > > > getting
                                  > > > > > > over since the followers are not the religion
                                  itself, but
                                  > > perhaps
                                  > > > > > this would
                                  > > > > > > cause some problems with fully honestly embracing the
                                  > > > > spirituality
                                  > > > > > of it.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > &g t; > > Fortunately I was not raised in any religion,
                                  but not
                                  > > raised
                                  > > > > > atheist either,
                                  > > > > > > so I got to choose. My parents beleived that I was
                                  too young to
                                  > > > > be
                                  > > > > > > influenced by a particular religion and that this
                                  sort of thing
                                  > > > > > should be my
                                  > > > > > > choice when I was old enough to decide.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Thinking about someone who was brought up athiest
                                  for example,
                                  > > > > it's
                                  > > > > > really
                                  > > > > > > difficult to get rid of that skepticsm, and thinking
                                  of
                                  > > some who
                                  > > > > > were raised
                                  > > > > > > Christian, there is often these underlying things
                                  that make it
                                  > > > > > obvious there
                                  > > > > > > is still something there (you know all that stuff
                                  that
                                  > > Pagans try
                                  > > > > > to work
                                  > > > > > > through like fear they are being evil when doing
                                  magic and
                                  > > etc.)
                                  > > > > > So perhaps
                                  > > > > > > one is supposed to stick with their childhood
                                  religion since it
                                  > > > > is
                                  > > > > > where
                                  > > > > > > some of the deepest held beleifs lay, even if
                                  subconsciously.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I would say that if you are comfortable with your
                                  childhood
                                  > > > > > religion go with
                                  > > > > > > that, since essentially there are many names of the
                                  divine, and
                                  > > > > > many ways to
                                  > > > > > > connect.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Athena
                                  > > > > > > --
                                  > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:57 AM, daniel wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Thanks guys- you have all been a very good help!
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I think I understand now the importance of staying
                                  to the
                                  > > > > > religion of
                                  > > > > > > > your birth.. I am considering going back to the
                                  church
                                  > > > > > (presbyterian)
                                  > > > > > > > I attended as a youth to get a feel for the
                                  surroundings and
                                  > > > > how
                                  > > > > > much
                                  > > > > > > > it has changed. I guess I just felt like the self-
                                  work in
                                  > > > > > > > christianity was not as strict as in other
                                  religions- but
                                  > > that
                                  > > > > is
                                  > > > > > not
                                  > > > > > > > true! So in the future I may take up the spiritual
                                  > > exercises of
                                  > > > > > saint
                                  > > > > > > > ignatius in order to have a more disciplined daily
                                  regimen..
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "hwhydog"
                                  > > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel,
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > I enjoyed Georg's illustration, but have a
                                  different
                                  > > take on
                                  > > > > > your
                                  > > > > > > > > question. The Abramelin working is very
                                  different for us
                                  > > > > today,
                                  > > > > > > > > especially as so many of those early occultists
                                  were so
                                  > > > > closely
                                  > > &g t; > > > > > linked to the Catholic Church or possibly the
                                  > > Rosicrucian's,
                                  > > > > > both
                                  > > > > > > > > deeply steeped in common Christianity. Today,
                                  following
                                  > > Chaos
                                  > > > > > magic
                                  > > > > > > > > and the freeing of occult information by Crowley,
                                  > > coupled to
                                  > > > > > fourth
                                  > > > > > > > > dimensional information and a pooling of all
                                  schools of
                                  > > > magick
                                  > > > > > > > [also
                                  > > > > > > > > don't forget Cognitive Nuero-science]. – Non-
                                  belief is the
                                  > > > > > purist
                                  > > > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > > > belief systems.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Georg's comment: "…Abramelin meant such
                                  subconscious
                                  > > > > influences
                                  > > > > > and
                                  > > > > > > > > what You need in Your practice is the feeling
                                  that You
                                  > > are in
                                  > > > > a
                                  > > > > > > > > harmoni ous world of the big line of ancestors …"
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > … is the key to the working, in my researched
                                  yet un-
                                  > > > > experienced
                                  > > > > > > > > opinion. Society around us has changed too; we
                                  are not
                                  > > living
                                  > > > > > in or
                                  > > > > > > > > just post the inquisition! Freedom of speech and
                                  > > thinking is
                                  > > > > > more
                                  > > > > > > > > common and many occultists have available a
                                  wider array of
                                  > > > > tools
                                  > > > > > > > > directed at consciousness than the lengthy
                                  workings
                                  > > like the
                                  > > > > > > > > Abramelin working. Yet the tool of breaking free
                                  from
                                  > > > > society,
                                  > > > > > ones
                                  > > > > > > > > spouse, secular responsibilities, sexual
                                  liaison – for a
                                  > > > > > > > considerable
                                  > > > > > > > > length of time in isolation, is of utmost
                                  significance.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Religion is just a belief system, faulty as it
                                  has to be
                                  > > > > based
                                  > > > > > on
                                  > > > > > > > > faith and faith is based on the non-provable.
                                  Freedom from
                                  > > > > > belief
                                  > > > > > > > and
                                  > > > > > > > > allowance of any belief [such as the Abramelin
                                  > > working], make
                                  > > > > > doing
                                  > > > > > > > > the working much easier. You are free to believe
                                  in it and
                                  > > > > have
                                  > > > > > > > > unseated those former beliefs thereby nullifying
                                  any danger
                                  > > > > from
                                  > > > > > > > them.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > SRD
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "daniel"
                                  > > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > I was just wondering if you guys think
                                  practicing a
                                  > > > > different
                                  > > > > > > > > religion
                                  > > > > > > > > > than from childhood while working the
                                  operation would be
                                  > > > > > > > > successful?
                                  > > > > > > > > > Abramelin warns against it, but I wanted to
                                  know from
                                  > > those
                                  > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > > you
                                  > > > > > > > > who
                                  > > > > > > > > > completed it what you think about all of
                                  that..?
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > I have heard from others that in medieval
                                  times the
                                  > > > > conversion
                                  > > > > > > > was
                                  > > > > > > > > more
                                  > > > > > > > > > heavy on the psyche and therefore more harmful
                                  to the
                                  > > > > > operation's
                                  > > > > > > > > > results- but not so much the case for today..
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Anyways.. any help or comments would be
                                  appreciated!
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --
                                  > > > > > > Odo cicle qaa
                                  > > > > > > --
                                  > > > > > > www.enochian.org
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------------
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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