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series of questions..

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  • ghost.dog721
    hi to everyone here.. I m new here, i wanted to take the work done but i get confused in some part of the book, no matter how many times i read the book over
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 11, 2011
      hi to everyone here..
      I'm new here, i wanted to take the work done but i get confused in some part of the book, no matter how many times i read the book over and over, i couldn't get any answer, so i thought i ask them here..
      my questions are:

      1- i should use the white robe for everyday prayer for the whole time and wearing the red one over the white one when dealing with the spirits, is it right? or i have to place both robes in the altar and use ordinary clean dress for praying and only using the robes when dealing with the spirits?
      2-what is uncut stone?
      3-dose any one used the any other method other than using alcohol for extracting oils from the herbs? like using a "clevenger" for example?
      4-is it possible to spend the whole time in another city and after achieving the communication with HGA move to another city and chose another location for the future ceremonies or not? in the book it's look like you can do this with specific kind of altar made for using outdoor, i thought with the tents which some of you put pictures of in here something similar is possible, is this right?

      these where my major questions, thanks in advance for helping me out. and sorry for the bad english.

      Regards
    • AaronL
      ... For most of your daily prayer you will wear normal (but clean) clothing. During the second period, you will begin to wear the white robe (and light the
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 12, 2011
        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "ghost.dog721" <ghost.dog721@...> wrote:

        > 1- i should use the white robe for everyday prayer for the whole time and wearing the red one over the white one when dealing with the spirits, is it right? or i have to place both robes in the altar and use ordinary clean dress for praying and only using the robes when dealing with the spirits?

        For most of your daily prayer you will wear normal (but clean) clothing. During the second period, you will begin to wear the white robe (and light the lamp and incense) for every pryaer made during the Sabbath day (morning and night). During the third period, you will wear the white robe (and light the lamp and incense) each and every time you enter the Oratory (three times a day).

        The red over-robe and silk headband are put on *over* the white robe when you work with the spirits.

        > 2-what is uncut stone?

        A stone that has not been cut with a tool.

        > 3-dose any one used the any other method other than using alcohol for extracting oils from the herbs? like using a "clevenger" for example?

        http://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/making-abramelin-holy-oil/

        > 4-is it possible to spend the whole time in another city and after achieving the communication with HGA move to another city and chose another location for the future ceremonies or not?

        You don't want to move location during the Operation. After it is complete you may move as you wish (or as your HGA directs you).

        >in the book it's look like you can do this with specific kind of altar made for using outdoor, i thought with the tents which some of you put pictures of in here something similar is possible, is this right?
        >

        Yep, you can do Abramelin in an outside tabernacle.

        LVX
        Aaron
      • ghost.dog721
        Thanks for your reply my friend that helped a lot. Regards
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 12, 2011
          Thanks for your reply my friend
          that helped a lot.

          Regards

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "AaronL" <kheph777@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "ghost.dog721" <ghost.dog721@> wrote:
          >
          > > 1- i should use the white robe for everyday prayer for the whole time and wearing the red one over the white one when dealing with the spirits, is it right? or i have to place both robes in the altar and use ordinary clean dress for praying and only using the robes when dealing with the spirits?
          >
          > For most of your daily prayer you will wear normal (but clean) clothing. During the second period, you will begin to wear the white robe (and light the lamp and incense) for every pryaer made during the Sabbath day (morning and night). During the third period, you will wear the white robe (and light the lamp and incense) each and every time you enter the Oratory (three times a day).
          >
          > The red over-robe and silk headband are put on *over* the white robe when you work with the spirits.
          >
          > > 2-what is uncut stone?
          >
          > A stone that has not been cut with a tool.
          >
          > > 3-dose any one used the any other method other than using alcohol for extracting oils from the herbs? like using a "clevenger" for example?
          >
          > http://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/making-abramelin-holy-oil/
          >
          > > 4-is it possible to spend the whole time in another city and after achieving the communication with HGA move to another city and chose another location for the future ceremonies or not?
          >
          > You don't want to move location during the Operation. After it is complete you may move as you wish (or as your HGA directs you).
          >
          > >in the book it's look like you can do this with specific kind of altar made for using outdoor, i thought with the tents which some of you put pictures of in here something similar is possible, is this right?
          > >
          >
          > Yep, you can do Abramelin in an outside tabernacle.
          >
          > LVX
          > Aaron
          >
        • ghost.dog721
          Dear Aaron, in the book three chapter twelve it says how to consecrate tools and one self, it says after feast of passover at the start of the next day do the
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 12, 2011
            Dear Aaron,

            in the book three chapter twelve it says how to consecrate tools and one self, it says after feast of passover at the start of the next day do the consecration. is it referring to the second passover which is the beginning of the third period, or it referring to the passover at the beginning of the whole work which is beginning of the first period?
          • AaronL
            Hmmmm... the only consecrations I know of would be done at the start of the final seven days of the Rite. That is when you touch everything with the holy oil
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 13, 2011
              Hmmmm... the only consecrations I know of would be done at the start of the final seven days of the Rite. That is when you touch everything with the holy oil and recite a prayer of consecration.

              The only mention I remember about Passover is at the very begining of the entire process.

              LVX
              Aaron

              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "ghost.dog721" <ghost.dog721@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Aaron,
              >
              > in the book three chapter twelve it says how to consecrate tools and one self, it says after feast of passover at the start of the next day do the consecration. is it referring to the second passover which is the beginning of the third period, or it referring to the passover at the beginning of the whole work which is beginning of the first period?
              >
            • Khem Caigan
              Welcome to the list, ghost.dog721! ... If you are approaching the rite as a Kabbalist, you will wear freshly-washed clothing and your prayer shawl, &tc., and
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 14, 2011
                Welcome to the list, ghost.dog721!

                > My questions are:
                >
                > 1- I should use the white robe for everyday prayer for the whole time and wearing
                > the red one over the white one when dealing with the spirits, is it right? Or I
                > have to place both robes in the altar and use ordinary clean dress for praying and
                > only using the robes when dealing with the spirits?

                If you are approaching the rite as a Kabbalist, you will
                wear freshly-washed clothing and your prayer shawl, &tc.,
                and you will wear the white robe during Shabbat, to welcome
                in the Queen.

                > 2-What is uncut stone?

                Loose stones that have been unworked by tools.

                > 3-Does any one used any other method than using alcohol for extracting
                > oils from the herbs? Like using a "clevenger" for example?

                All of the links below provide exhaustive examples of how
                the authentic anointing oil was created during the time
                of the First Tabernacle on into the present :

                *Making Oil of Abraham Elim*
                Message #1289 of 1328
                Thursday Aug 18, 2011
                http://tinyurl.com/3qkc7k5

                *Re: Making Oil of Abraham Elim*
                Message #1292 of 1328
                Thursday Aug 18, 2011
                http://tinyurl.com/cdlxq2m

                *Re: Making Oil of Abraham Elim*
                Message #1296 of 1328
                Sunday Aug 21, 2011
                http://tinyurl.com/cwks9k7

                > 4-Is it possible to spend the whole time in another city and after achieving the
                > communication with HGA move to another city and choose another location for the future
                > ceremonies or not? In the book it looks like you can do this with specific kind of
                > altar made for using outdoor, I thought with the tents which some of you put pictures
                > of in here something similar is possible, is this right?

                Absolutely! And for information on how to build your own
                tabernacle, see :

                *How To Build Your Sukkah*
                http://tinyurl.com/be3c9j

                *Sukkot, a harvest festival, building a sukkah*
                (YouTube)
                http://tinyurl.com/dbphu4

                *Sukkot*
                @Wikipedia
                http://tinyurl.com/ywas2o

                For more information on the rite of Abraham Elim as it
                relates to Judaism, see the *Torah*, specifically *Exodus*,
                and particularly chapters 25-30 :

                *Exodus 25-30: The Tabernacle*
                http://tinyurl.com/dffnw2

                Cors in Manu Domine,


                ~ Khem Caigan
                <Khem@...>

                " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                zodiacal sign (sar mazzal) of a person
                when it is sent below has the image of
                the person who is under it....

                And this is the meaning of 'And God
                created man in His image, in the image
                of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

                Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                and 'in the image'?

                One image refers to the image of man and
                the other to the image of the Angel of
                the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                of the man. "

                ~ from:
                *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                by Rabbi Eleazar of Worms
              • Voltaire07
                dear ghost.dog721, for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points out the steps of the work and comes to the third, emphasizing bare feet. The first
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 15, 2011
                  dear ghost.dog721,

                  for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points out the steps of the work and comes to the third, emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to chapters  7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and more private and intimate to the process.

                  Unfortunately the text, also in the different german manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us, when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.

                  Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when following the time table. And it is self evident not to count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar. (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)

                  Love, Georg

                • ghost.dog721
                  Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you.. so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and mr.Aaron did this at
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 16, 2011
                    Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..

                    so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing of consecration is not curial, am i right?

                    you said one should consider not counting days, instead of using holiday to holiday -passover to tabernacles-for measuring the time table for each step of the work, how is that possible if you want to go the Mathers way which says six month for the whole operation, i know when someone going down this road they will feel when the periods are completed somehow, i think the time table is much like an internal clock or whatever it's called, like when you going to sleep and without a watch you say i will wake up 7 in the morning or 6 and you do wake up right on time -works for me each time-, the time table could be something similar, otherwise no one could claim that they did the work done after using mathers wrong translation, i don't know for sure, what do you think?
                    anyway, in the book and also in the newcomb's book -21 century mage- it is said that no specific time of the year is required for starting and ending the three periods but suggested in the book of abramelin starting the work after passover and for a bonus point in first year of marriage, what is your opinion about this? is it right to start tomorrow , or one should have wait till next passover really?

                    my questions:

                    1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?
                    2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use the holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole operation in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?

                    Best Regards
                    Shaya


                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > dear ghost.dog721,
                    >
                    > for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points
                    > out the steps of the work and comes to the third,
                    > emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter
                    > repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to
                    > chapters 7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and
                    > more private and intimate to the process.
                    >
                    > Unfortunately the text, also in the different german
                    > manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time
                    > periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott
                    > allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the
                    > masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many
                    > kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us,
                    > when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.
                    >
                    > Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the
                    > third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He
                    > needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when
                    > following the time table. And it is self evident not to
                    > count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to
                    > holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar.
                    > (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or
                    > Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)
                    >
                    > Love, Georg
                    >
                  • Athena
                    If you feel a need to start now that is really strong I would say go for it. But do keep in mind that each change you make is yet one more divergence from the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 16, 2011
                      If you feel a need to start now that is really strong I would say go for it.  But do keep in mind that each change you make is yet one more divergence from the original work.  If you fudge on the start and end times make sure you do NOT fudge on anything else. 

                      I started on the fall equinox. 

                      21st century mage also says to finish when you feel done, which I have to say I completely disagree with, your ego will most definitely feel you are done much before you really are. 

                      I you are going for a different date, there are equinoxes and solstices for example instead of random dates.  If you are counting days going by this would be closer then just a number of days.  I don't think anyone needs to start so quickly they cannot wait for the next major date.  Also, it might be more lunar months then 30-31 day months.

                      Now if you are for example starting tomorrow, as long as you have put at least a few months thought into it as well.... it is definitely not something which should be rushed into (in my opinion) no matter which date you start.

                      Athena

                      On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..

                      so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing of consecration is not curial, am i right?

                      you said one should consider not counting days, instead of using holiday to holiday -passover to tabernacles-for measuring the time table for each step of the work, how is that possible if you want to go the Mathers way which says six month for the whole operation, i know when someone going down this road they will feel when the periods are completed somehow, i think the time table is much like an internal clock or whatever it's called, like when you going to sleep and without a watch you say i will wake up 7 in the morning or 6 and you do wake up right on time -works for me each time-, the time table could be something similar, otherwise no one could claim that they did the work done after using mathers wrong translation, i don't know for sure, what do you think?
                      anyway, in the book and also in the newcomb's book -21 century mage- it is said that no specific time of the year is required for starting and ending the three periods but suggested in the book of abramelin starting the work after passover and for a bonus point in first year of marriage, what is your opinion about this? is it right to start tomorrow , or one should have wait till next passover really?

                      my questions:

                      1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?
                      2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use the holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole operation in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?

                      Best Regards
                      Shaya



                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > dear ghost.dog721,
                      >
                      > for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points
                      > out the steps of the work and comes to the third,
                      > emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter
                      > repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to
                      > chapters 7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and
                      > more private and intimate to the process.
                      >
                      > Unfortunately the text, also in the different german
                      > manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time
                      > periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott
                      > allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the
                      > masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many
                      > kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us,
                      > when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.
                      >
                      > Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the
                      > third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He
                      > needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when
                      > following the time table. And it is self evident not to
                      > count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to
                      > holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar.
                      > (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or
                      > Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)
                      >
                      > Love, Georg
                      >




                      --

                      Give a gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org



                      Odo cicle qaa
                      --
                      www.enochian.org

                      "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate friends"



                    • ghost.dog721
                      Dear Athena thanks for your reply. i have to say, starting tomorrow was an example. naturally no one would go down such a way with such a rush. it was a
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 16, 2011
                        Dear Athena
                        thanks for your reply.

                        i have to say, starting tomorrow was an example. naturally no one would go down such a way with such a rush. it was a metaphor if i may say.
                        the thing is, the place i am going to use for the operation is available to me in an specific period of time. so naturally i pick the date with this in mind. and i have to say i'm not rushing anything, but i feel very strong that i should start the operation this year -in the chosen period of time which the place is available-.
                        anyway, i did recall in the 21 century mage book i read that it doesn't matter when you start. also in the abramelin book too, in book three chapter five. it is also clearly explained in the end of the mentioned chapter:
                        "It is true that elements and stars have power -they make days different.these differences do not appear in spiritual and supernatural things but only in earthly and natural occurrences."

                        but what can i say as i am only an enthusiastic student in this path and thirsty for guidance from masters of the art.

                        i am willing to postponed the operation if it is really matters in your opinion. and i am open to suggestion my friends. once again sorry for my poor english.

                        Best Regards
                        Shaya

                        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If you feel a need to start now that is really strong I would say go for
                        > it. But do keep in mind that each change you make is yet one more
                        > divergence from the original work. If you fudge on the start and end times
                        > make sure you do NOT fudge on anything else.
                        >
                        > I started on the fall equinox.
                        >
                        > 21st century mage also says to finish when you feel done, which I have to
                        > say I completely disagree with, your ego will most definitely feel you are
                        > done much before you really are.
                        >
                        > I you are going for a different date, there are equinoxes and solstices for
                        > example instead of random dates. If you are counting days going by this
                        > would be closer then just a number of days. I don't think anyone needs to
                        > start so quickly they cannot wait for the next major date. Also, it might
                        > be more lunar months then 30-31 day months.
                        >
                        > Now if you are for example starting tomorrow, as long as you have put at
                        > least a few months thought into it as well.... it is definitely not
                        > something which should be rushed into (in my opinion) no matter which date
                        > you start.
                        >
                        > Athena
                        >
                        > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@...>wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..
                        > >
                        > > so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and
                        > > mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of
                        > > consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing of
                        > > consecration is not curial, am i right?
                        > >
                        > > you said one should consider not counting days, instead of using holiday
                        > > to holiday -passover to tabernacles-for measuring the time table for each
                        > > step of the work, how is that possible if you want to go the Mathers way
                        > > which says six month for the whole operation, i know when someone going
                        > > down this road they will feel when the periods are completed somehow, i
                        > > think the time table is much like an internal clock or whatever it's
                        > > called, like when you going to sleep and without a watch you say i will
                        > > wake up 7 in the morning or 6 and you do wake up right on time -works for
                        > > me each time-, the time table could be something similar, otherwise no one
                        > > could claim that they did the work done after using mathers wrong
                        > > translation, i don't know for sure, what do you think?
                        > > anyway, in the book and also in the newcomb's book -21 century mage- it is
                        > > said that no specific time of the year is required for starting and ending
                        > > the three periods but suggested in the book of abramelin starting the work
                        > > after passover and for a bonus point in first year of marriage, what is
                        > > your opinion about this? is it right to start tomorrow , or one should have
                        > > wait till next passover really?
                        > >
                        > > my questions:
                        > >
                        > > 1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here
                        > > managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?
                        > > 2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use the
                        > > holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole operation
                        > > in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?
                        > >
                        > > Best Regards
                        > > Shaya
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > dear ghost.dog721,
                        > > >
                        > > > for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points
                        > > > out the steps of the work and comes to the third,
                        > > > emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter
                        > > > repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to
                        > > > chapters 7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and
                        > > > more private and intimate to the process.
                        > > >
                        > > > Unfortunately the text, also in the different german
                        > > > manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time
                        > > > periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott
                        > > > allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the
                        > > > masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many
                        > > > kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us,
                        > > > when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.
                        > > >
                        > > > Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the
                        > > > third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He
                        > > > needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when
                        > > > following the time table. And it is self evident not to
                        > > > count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to
                        > > > holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar.
                        > > > (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or
                        > > > Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)
                        > > >
                        > > > Love, Georg
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Morgans-Kidney/114852965237215?v=info>Give a
                        > gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Odo cicle qaa
                        > --
                        > www.enochian.org
                        >
                        > "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate
                        > friends"
                        >
                      • Athena
                        I would say that having an appropriate place with no worries is more important then exact date. Others may have differing opinions on this, it will be
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 16, 2011
                          I would say that having an appropriate place with no worries is more important then exact date.  Others may have differing opinions on this, it will be interesting to see what everyone has to say. 

                          And, I just had to make sure, I have talked with some people who nearly did rush right into it, and it is good they did not at the time since they weren't ready (life was too hectic).

                          I wish you the best of luck on one of the most important and rewarding workings!

                          Oh and by the way, you don't end up a Master of the Art after you have completed the operation, just a really really good beginning! ;)

                          Athena
                          --
                          www.enochian.org

                          On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@...> wrote:
                           

                          Dear Athena
                          thanks for your reply.

                          i have to say, starting tomorrow was an example. naturally no one would go down such a way with such a rush. it was a metaphor if i may say.
                          the thing is, the place i am going to use for the operation is available to me in an specific period of time. so naturally i pick the date with this in mind. and i have to say i'm not rushing anything, but i feel very strong that i should start the operation this year -in the chosen period of time which the place is available-.
                          anyway, i did recall in the 21 century mage book i read that it doesn't matter when you start. also in the abramelin book too, in book three chapter five. it is also clearly explained in the end of the mentioned chapter:
                          "It is true that elements and stars have power -they make days different.these differences do not appear in spiritual and supernatural things but only in earthly and natural occurrences."

                          but what can i say as i am only an enthusiastic student in this path and thirsty for guidance from masters of the art.

                          i am willing to postponed the operation if it is really matters in your opinion. and i am open to suggestion my friends. once again sorry for my poor english.

                          Best Regards
                          Shaya



                          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > If you feel a need to start now that is really strong I would say go for
                          > it. But do keep in mind that each change you make is yet one more
                          > divergence from the original work. If you fudge on the start and end times
                          > make sure you do NOT fudge on anything else.
                          >
                          > I started on the fall equinox.
                          >
                          > 21st century mage also says to finish when you feel done, which I have to
                          > say I completely disagree with, your ego will most definitely feel you are
                          > done much before you really are.
                          >
                          > I you are going for a different date, there are equinoxes and solstices for
                          > example instead of random dates. If you are counting days going by this
                          > would be closer then just a number of days. I don't think anyone needs to
                          > start so quickly they cannot wait for the next major date. Also, it might
                          > be more lunar months then 30-31 day months.
                          >
                          > Now if you are for example starting tomorrow, as long as you have put at
                          > least a few months thought into it as well.... it is definitely not
                          > something which should be rushed into (in my opinion) no matter which date
                          > you start.
                          >
                          > Athena
                          >
                          > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@...>wrote:
                          >
                          > > **

                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..
                          > >
                          > > so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and
                          > > mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of
                          > > consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing of
                          > > consecration is not curial, am i right?
                          > >
                          > > you said one should consider not counting days, instead of using holiday
                          > > to holiday -passover to tabernacles-for measuring the time table for each
                          > > step of the work, how is that possible if you want to go the Mathers way
                          > > which says six month for the whole operation, i know when someone going
                          > > down this road they will feel when the periods are completed somehow, i
                          > > think the time table is much like an internal clock or whatever it's
                          > > called, like when you going to sleep and without a watch you say i will
                          > > wake up 7 in the morning or 6 and you do wake up right on time -works for
                          > > me each time-, the time table could be something similar, otherwise no one
                          > > could claim that they did the work done after using mathers wrong
                          > > translation, i don't know for sure, what do you think?
                          > > anyway, in the book and also in the newcomb's book -21 century mage- it is
                          > > said that no specific time of the year is required for starting and ending
                          > > the three periods but suggested in the book of abramelin starting the work
                          > > after passover and for a bonus point in first year of marriage, what is
                          > > your opinion about this? is it right to start tomorrow , or one should have
                          > > wait till next passover really?
                          > >
                          > > my questions:
                          > >
                          > > 1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here
                          > > managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?
                          > > 2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use the
                          > > holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole operation
                          > > in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?
                          > >
                          > > Best Regards
                          > > Shaya
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > dear ghost.dog721,
                          > > >
                          > > > for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points
                          > > > out the steps of the work and comes to the third,
                          > > > emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter
                          > > > repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to
                          > > > chapters 7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and
                          > > > more private and intimate to the process.
                          > > >
                          > > > Unfortunately the text, also in the different german
                          > > > manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time
                          > > > periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott
                          > > > allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the
                          > > > masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many
                          > > > kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us,
                          > > > when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.
                          > > >
                          > > > Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the
                          > > > third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He
                          > > > needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when
                          > > > following the time table. And it is self evident not to
                          > > > count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to
                          > > > holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar.
                          > > > (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or
                          > > > Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)
                          > > >
                          > > > Love, Georg
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Morgans-Kidney/114852965237215?v=info>Give a

                          > gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Odo cicle qaa
                          > --
                          > www.enochian.org
                          >
                          > "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate
                          > friends"
                          >




                          --

                          Give a gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org



                          Odo cicle qaa
                          --
                          www.enochian.org

                          "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate friends"



                        • ghost.dog721
                          Thank you very much Athena . i appreciate your concern very much and wish you all the best in every step you take. it is important to me and very helpful
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 16, 2011
                            Thank you very much Athena . i appreciate your concern very much and wish you all the best in every step you take.
                            it is important to me and very helpful hearing your opinion and all the other members opinion too.
                            i know it is only the beginning after i done with the operation.


                            Best Regards
                            Shaya

                            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I would say that having an appropriate place with no worries is more
                            > important then exact date. Others may have differing opinions on this, it
                            > will be interesting to see what everyone has to say.
                            >
                            > And, I just had to make sure, I have talked with some people who nearly did
                            > rush right into it, and it is good they did not at the time since they
                            > weren't ready (life was too hectic).
                            >
                            > I wish you the best of luck on one of the most important and rewarding
                            > workings!
                            >
                            > Oh and by the way, you don't end up a Master of the Art after you have
                            > completed the operation, just a really really good beginning! ;)
                            >
                            > Athena
                            > --
                            > www.enochian.org
                            >
                            > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@...>wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dear Athena
                            > > thanks for your reply.
                            > >
                            > > i have to say, starting tomorrow was an example. naturally no one would go
                            > > down such a way with such a rush. it was a metaphor if i may say.
                            > > the thing is, the place i am going to use for the operation is available
                            > > to me in an specific period of time. so naturally i pick the date with this
                            > > in mind. and i have to say i'm not rushing anything, but i feel very strong
                            > > that i should start the operation this year -in the chosen period of time
                            > > which the place is available-.
                            > > anyway, i did recall in the 21 century mage book i read that it doesn't
                            > > matter when you start. also in the abramelin book too, in book three
                            > > chapter five. it is also clearly explained in the end of the mentioned
                            > > chapter:
                            > > "It is true that elements and stars have power -they make days
                            > > different.these differences do not appear in spiritual and supernatural
                            > > things but only in earthly and natural occurrences."
                            > >
                            > > but what can i say as i am only an enthusiastic student in this path and
                            > > thirsty for guidance from masters of the art.
                            > >
                            > > i am willing to postponed the operation if it is really matters in your
                            > > opinion. and i am open to suggestion my friends. once again sorry for my
                            > > poor english.
                            > >
                            > > Best Regards
                            > > Shaya
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > If you feel a need to start now that is really strong I would say go for
                            > > > it. But do keep in mind that each change you make is yet one more
                            > > > divergence from the original work. If you fudge on the start and end
                            > > times
                            > > > make sure you do NOT fudge on anything else.
                            > > >
                            > > > I started on the fall equinox.
                            > > >
                            > > > 21st century mage also says to finish when you feel done, which I have to
                            > > > say I completely disagree with, your ego will most definitely feel you
                            > > are
                            > > > done much before you really are.
                            > > >
                            > > > I you are going for a different date, there are equinoxes and solstices
                            > > for
                            > > > example instead of random dates. If you are counting days going by this
                            > > > would be closer then just a number of days. I don't think anyone needs to
                            > > > start so quickly they cannot wait for the next major date. Also, it might
                            > > > be more lunar months then 30-31 day months.
                            > > >
                            > > > Now if you are for example starting tomorrow, as long as you have put at
                            > > > least a few months thought into it as well.... it is definitely not
                            > > > something which should be rushed into (in my opinion) no matter which
                            > > date
                            > > > you start.
                            > > >
                            > > > Athena
                            > > >
                            > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@>wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > **
                            > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..
                            > > > >
                            > > > > so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period,
                            > > and
                            > > > > mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of
                            > > > > consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing
                            > > of
                            > > > > consecration is not curial, am i right?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > you said one should consider not counting days, instead of using
                            > > holiday
                            > > > > to holiday -passover to tabernacles-for measuring the time table for
                            > > each
                            > > > > step of the work, how is that possible if you want to go the Mathers
                            > > way
                            > > > > which says six month for the whole operation, i know when someone going
                            > > > > down this road they will feel when the periods are completed somehow, i
                            > > > > think the time table is much like an internal clock or whatever it's
                            > > > > called, like when you going to sleep and without a watch you say i will
                            > > > > wake up 7 in the morning or 6 and you do wake up right on time -works
                            > > for
                            > > > > me each time-, the time table could be something similar, otherwise no
                            > > one
                            > > > > could claim that they did the work done after using mathers wrong
                            > > > > translation, i don't know for sure, what do you think?
                            > > > > anyway, in the book and also in the newcomb's book -21 century mage-
                            > > it is
                            > > > > said that no specific time of the year is required for starting and
                            > > ending
                            > > > > the three periods but suggested in the book of abramelin starting the
                            > > work
                            > > > > after passover and for a bonus point in first year of marriage, what is
                            > > > > your opinion about this? is it right to start tomorrow , or one should
                            > > have
                            > > > > wait till next passover really?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > my questions:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here
                            > > > > managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?
                            > > > > 2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use
                            > > the
                            > > > > holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole
                            > > operation
                            > > > > in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Best Regards
                            > > > > Shaya
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > dear ghost.dog721,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points
                            > > > > > out the steps of the work and comes to the third,
                            > > > > > emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter
                            > > > > > repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to
                            > > > > > chapters 7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and
                            > > > > > more private and intimate to the process.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Unfortunately the text, also in the different german
                            > > > > > manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time
                            > > > > > periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott
                            > > > > > allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the
                            > > > > > masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many
                            > > > > > kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us,
                            > > > > > when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the
                            > > > > > third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He
                            > > > > > needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when
                            > > > > > following the time table. And it is self evident not to
                            > > > > > count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to
                            > > > > > holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar.
                            > > > > > (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or
                            > > > > > Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Love, Georg
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --
                            > > > <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Morgans-Kidney/114852965237215?v=info>Give
                            > > a
                            > >
                            > > > gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Odo cicle qaa
                            > > > --
                            > > > www.enochian.org
                            > > >
                            > > > "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and
                            > > intimate
                            > > > friends"
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Morgans-Kidney/114852965237215?v=info>Give a
                            > gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Odo cicle qaa
                            > --
                            > www.enochian.org
                            >
                            > "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate
                            > friends"
                            >
                          • AaronL
                            ... Actually you do the consecration on the first day of the final seven days, not at the start of the third period. And, no, I did not do this at the start
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 17, 2011
                              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "ghost.dog721" <ghost.dog721@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..
                              >
                              > so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing of consecration is not curial, am i right?
                              >

                              Actually you do the consecration on the first day of the final seven days, not at the start of the third period. And, no, I did not do this at the start of the entire operation - I did it on the first of the final seven days. ;)

                              > my questions:
                              >
                              > 1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?

                              The book does indeed say you can start any time of the year - though I strongly suggest starting after Passover as suggested. That begins the Rite at the time of year the Sun begins to wax, and ends it when the Sun begins to wane. The Sun is an important factor in the initiation.


                              > 2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use the holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole operation in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?
                              >

                              You're over-thinking. Just follow the instructions and do the prayers for three periods of either six months or two months, depending on which version you follow.

                              LVX
                              Aaron
                            • Georg Dehn
                              hi Shaya, mentioning Newcomb s 21st Mage is interesting. He has explanations which are most compatable to mine. He also is an example of somebody initiated
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 19, 2011
                                hi Shaya,

                                mentioning Newcomb's 21st Mage is interesting. He has explanations which are most compatable to mine.

                                He also is an example of somebody initiated before meeting Abramelin. So from this point he made it in short time. But I would not confront new scholars with such a schedule. Therefore I stay with the 18 Months time and I see it most realistic, because within the moon cycle You hit many people on their subconscious private timetable and enable a better result.

                                What makes the Abramelin so precious is the different levels of skil which are hidden in the text.So people of authoritarian needs are served with rules, as well as the more libertarian who have no need for laws. (That doesn't mean, that it works without discipline) Everybody comes from another background, as I pointed out above.

                                The time of initiation also has a relation to the astrolgical theme that is mentioned and was a topic here before. (messages 1308 - 1313)
                                AvW deals with the "systemical" cycle, that is in the weekdays, going for the planetary hours and in the holidays he goes for the natural cycle. In many things it is really science, that we are talking about. We only can discuss our approach to the topic, but not so much the contents, because they follow natural and psychical laws.

                                Just another word to Newcomb: I would say, You finish when You know it is done. That is what he means with feeling. Reread all the people's witnesses about their final state of conversation with the Angel, then You know what he and I are meaning.

                                Gurdjieff calls it "direct knowledge".
                                It is the same, what I learned from Australian Aborigines: They have no democratic system. Their "grade" of being elder is a private knowledge. You know yourself when You belong to the elders of a tribe. This is the result of an experience related to the conversation of the angel. This is direct knowledge. When You are part of the elders of the tribe You know it and they accept it.

                                I'd like to know what Marcus Katz would say to that. He made thrilling book on his experience in April, which has a lot of good insights and has a very emotional approach to the practical side of the experience.

                                Love
                                Georg






                                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "ghost.dog721" <ghost.dog721@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Athena
                                > thanks for your reply.
                                >
                                > i have to say, starting tomorrow was an example. naturally no one would go down such a way with such a rush. it was a metaphor if i may say.
                                > the thing is, the place i am going to use for the operation is available to me in an specific period of time. so naturally i pick the date with this in mind. and i have to say i'm not rushing anything, but i feel very strong that i should start the operation this year -in the chosen period of time which the place is available-.
                                > anyway, i did recall in the 21 century mage book i read that it doesn't matter when you start. also in the abramelin book too, in book three chapter five. it is also clearly explained in the end of the mentioned chapter:
                                > "It is true that elements and stars have power -they make days different.these differences do not appear in spiritual and supernatural things but only in earthly and natural occurrences."
                                >
                                > but what can i say as i am only an enthusiastic student in this path and thirsty for guidance from masters of the art.
                                >
                                > i am willing to postponed the operation if it is really matters in your opinion. and i am open to suggestion my friends. once again sorry for my poor english.
                                >
                                > Best Regards
                                > Shaya
                                >
                                > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Athena <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > If you feel a need to start now that is really strong I would say go for
                                > > it. But do keep in mind that each change you make is yet one more
                                > > divergence from the original work. If you fudge on the start and end times
                                > > make sure you do NOT fudge on anything else.
                                > >
                                > > I started on the fall equinox.
                                > >
                                > > 21st century mage also says to finish when you feel done, which I have to
                                > > say I completely disagree with, your ego will most definitely feel you are
                                > > done much before you really are.
                                > >
                                > > I you are going for a different date, there are equinoxes and solstices for
                                > > example instead of random dates. If you are counting days going by this
                                > > would be closer then just a number of days. I don't think anyone needs to
                                > > start so quickly they cannot wait for the next major date. Also, it might
                                > > be more lunar months then 30-31 day months.
                                > >
                                > > Now if you are for example starting tomorrow, as long as you have put at
                                > > least a few months thought into it as well.... it is definitely not
                                > > something which should be rushed into (in my opinion) no matter which date
                                > > you start.
                                > >
                                > > Athena
                                > >
                                > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM, ghost.dog721 <ghost.dog721@>wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > **
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Thank you Aaron and Georg for your replys. very kind of you..
                                > > >
                                > > > so the consecration ritual takes place in start of the third period, and
                                > > > mr.Aaron did this at start of the whole operation, i guess the act of
                                > > > consecration is important if Mr.Aaron succeed this way, and the timing of
                                > > > consecration is not curial, am i right?
                                > > >
                                > > > you said one should consider not counting days, instead of using holiday
                                > > > to holiday -passover to tabernacles-for measuring the time table for each
                                > > > step of the work, how is that possible if you want to go the Mathers way
                                > > > which says six month for the whole operation, i know when someone going
                                > > > down this road they will feel when the periods are completed somehow, i
                                > > > think the time table is much like an internal clock or whatever it's
                                > > > called, like when you going to sleep and without a watch you say i will
                                > > > wake up 7 in the morning or 6 and you do wake up right on time -works for
                                > > > me each time-, the time table could be something similar, otherwise no one
                                > > > could claim that they did the work done after using mathers wrong
                                > > > translation, i don't know for sure, what do you think?
                                > > > anyway, in the book and also in the newcomb's book -21 century mage- it is
                                > > > said that no specific time of the year is required for starting and ending
                                > > > the three periods but suggested in the book of abramelin starting the work
                                > > > after passover and for a bonus point in first year of marriage, what is
                                > > > your opinion about this? is it right to start tomorrow , or one should have
                                > > > wait till next passover really?
                                > > >
                                > > > my questions:
                                > > >
                                > > > 1- is it really alright to start anytime of the year or anyone here
                                > > > managed to succeed with starting anytime of the year?
                                > > > 2- is it really alright to count days for each steps as you can't use the
                                > > > holiday to holiday basis for the time table when taking the whole operation
                                > > > in six month -considering a few days early or late for each step-?
                                > > >
                                > > > Best Regards
                                > > > Shaya
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > dear ghost.dog721,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > for me, he obviously means the second passover. He points
                                > > > > out the steps of the work and comes to the third,
                                > > > > emphasizing bare feet. The first sentences of the chapter
                                > > > > repeat the levels of intensity of the three steps. Go to
                                > > > > chapters 7 & 8 and You find, the levels of being more and
                                > > > > more private and intimate to the process.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Unfortunately the text, also in the different german
                                > > > > manuscripts, only mentions "differences" of the three time
                                > > > > periods. AvW was a "simple initiate" and not a polyglott
                                > > > > allraound knowledgable adept as we are today. with the
                                > > > > masses of literature, multicultural experiences and many
                                > > > > kinds of initiations being the base of some of many of us,
                                > > > > when finally meeting the Abramelin practise.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Bare feet are an important symbol for initiation and the
                                > > > > third part of the period actually is The Initiation. He
                                > > > > needs not talk about passover, this is self evident when
                                > > > > following the time table. And it is self evident not to
                                > > > > count the days of the half years, but going from holiday to
                                > > > > holiday, which are the strong points of the moon calendar.
                                > > > > (By the way all the initiating systems, be they Pagan or
                                > > > > Hermetic, use bare skin in a way to commence to the last step)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Love, Georg
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Morgans-Kidney/114852965237215?v=info>Give a
                                > > gift people will really remember this year, shop at www.enochian.org
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Odo cicle qaa
                                > > --
                                > > www.enochian.org
                                > >
                                > > "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate
                                > > friends"
                                > >
                                >
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