Re: Two questions about astrology
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
>You missed my point. Having stated that there is a Gnostic influence in Abramelin, I went on to use Gnostic terminology to illustrate the point. I did not mean that Abraham was *literally* writing about the Great Barrier, Archons or the Pleroma. Only that his ideas (on this matter) descend from there.
> Funny, I never got my own email, but got Aarons' reply. BTW, thanks Aaron. :-)
> My comments are in brackets.
> Thanks again,
> From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
> To: email@example.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:12 AM
> Subject: [abramelin] Re: Two questions about astrology
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Adam Sod wrote:
> [I agree that this is based on (Jewish) Gnostism. I personally think process is probably Essene in nature.Â I see your point, but to me, your stance is based on your interpretation of 'spiritual and supernatural things'. I was taking it more along the lines of 'spiritual minded' vs. mundane, and things not (easily) explained through science. I'm not saying your are wrong, but would like you to explain how you came to the conclusion that those words are a indirect/direct reference to Archons, Aeons and the Barrier.]
I do not see any reason to believe Abraham used the words "spiritual" and "supernatural" the way we use it - as antonyms for "mundane." The worldview he presents includes the stars as part of the natural world. And he describes magick that uses astrology and other elements of nature as "natural effects."
Meanwhile, he uses the term "supernatural" quite literally: meaning "above nature" and thus above the stars. He also uses the word "spiritual" in a very Gnostic/Platonic manner - meaning "having nothing to do with mattter" or with the forces of nature. Thus he is essentially describing the Pleroma or Atziluth.
On the other hand, he states that the True and Sacred Magick is beyond the considerations of astrology because it is supernatural - or what we today would call supercelestial.
> [That was a thought that I had too, that astrology had nothing to do with the HGA.]Exactly. Your Nativity Angel is connected entirely to your birth chart. Your HGA is beyond that - pure white divine brilliance - a direct representative of the Sheckina/Christos/Holy Spirit.
> > What is the differenceÃÂ between a truly powerful magician using the stars to tell him when to make a mojoAs you and I both agree, Abramelin is a Gnostic-influenced text. (Abramelin was an Egyptian mage after all.) Thus it is no surprise to see Gnostic-influenced ideas contained there.
> > bag or talisman to successfully acquire great wealth and an Abramelin mage using
> > a magic square? The only difference I can think of is that Abraham would say
> > that the former, is a method inwhich the demons are secretly granting the
> > magician's wishes in an attempt to lure
> > him into a pact. Which could be easily countered by his own words stating the
> > twelve magical arts and that he admits that the elements and stars have the
> > ability to affect natural things.
> I think you missed the fact that Abraham is talking about two entirely different things.
> [That may be true, but I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion he is talking from a Gnostic standpoint.]