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Re: [abramelin] Re: Two questions about astrology

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  • Adam Sod
    Shalom, Funny, I never got my own email, but got Aarons reply. BTW, thanks Aaron. :-) My comments are in brackets. Thanks again, AdamSod72
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 28, 2011
      Shalom,

      Funny, I never got my own email, but got Aarons' reply. BTW, thanks Aaron. :-)

      My comments are in brackets.

      Thanks again,
      AdamSod72


      From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
      To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:12 AM
      Subject: [abramelin] Re: Two questions about astrology

       


      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
      >
      > Message
      > HI. I had
      > several questions from the Dehn translation.
      >  
      > 1. pg 85: 21. 'It is true that elements and stars have
      > powerâ€"they make days different. These differences do not appear in spiritual and
      > supernatural things, but only in earthly and natural occurrences.'

      This is an example of the Gnostic influence in Abramelin. To the Gnostics, there were the Archons and spirits that exist below the Great Barrier and direct the forces of nature (a la astrology), and then there were the Aeons and supercelestial beings who exist above the Barrier - in the Pleroma - who have little to nothing to do with chaotic and imperfect matter.

      In the above quote, Abraham is asserting that spiritual/supernatural things (such as the HGA) are above and beyond nature (that is - above the Great Barrier in the Pleroma) and therefore have no part in stars or elements.
      [I agree that this is based on (Jewish) Gnostism. I personally think process is probably Essene in nature.  I see your point, but to me, your stance is based on your interpretation of 'spiritual and supernatural things'. I was taking it more along the lines of 'spiritual minded' vs. mundane, and things not (easily) explained through science. I'm not saying your are wrong, but would like you to explain how you came to the conclusion that those words are a indirect/direct reference to Archons, Aeons and the Barrier.]


      > I'm left with the feeling that he thinks it foolishness to use astrology to determine when to perform a ritual, or when to
      > make a talisman.

      No. He is stating that you *can* use astrology to determine when to perform magick or make a talisman, but that that has nothing whatsoever to do with the HGA. It is his opinion that you should strive for the transcendant - the Pleroma - rather than waste time with the Archons. This is pretty straightforward Gnosticism. They were also anti-astrology, and for the same reasons.

      [That was a thought that I had too, that astrology had nothing to do with the HGA.]

      > What confuses the matter even more is that he state
      > on pg 79: 'There are other magical arts that appear to be like wisdom and magic
      > but are different. These have become intermingled with the holy secrets; from
      > these have come the blended Kabbalah. There are 12 of these magical arts...

      Go to aaronleitch.wordpress.com and search for "Mixed Qabalah". I explain this there in detail, followed by a Mixed Qabalah working involving one of Abramelin's charms (from book 2 of the Dehn version) and Archangel Samael.

      > It is clear that
      > he thinks that the stars have power to create change in the physical world, but
      > yet discounts it's use in magic.

      Again no. He admits its use in magick, but discounts its applicability to the "True and Sacred Magick" that he is teaching.

      Abraham seesm to only be concerned with angelic magic, which
      > uses square to...create change in the physical world.

      The squares do their work via spirits, not the Angel.
      [I think I might have used bad wording here. When I say Angel magic, I am saying that the whole system is dependent upon connecting with one's Angel.]

      > What is the difference between a truly powerful magician using the stars to tell him when to make a mojo
      > bag or talisman to successfully acquire great wealth and an Abramelin mage using
      > a magic square? The only difference I can think of is that Abraham would say
      > that the former, is a method inwhich the demons are secretly granting the
      > magician's wishes in an attempt to lure
      > him into a pact. Which could be easily countered by his own words stating the
      > twelve magical arts and that he admits that the elements and stars have the
      > ability to affect natural things.

      I think you missed the fact that Abraham is talking about two entirely different things.
      [That may be true, but I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion he is talking from a Gnostic standpoint.]


      LVX
      Aaron

      > I think the key to the dilemma is in knowing more about Abraham's philosophy of
      > magic or possibly realizing one fact: the book, if taken literal, was never
      > meant for us, but his son, which Abraham admits time and time again, that his
      > writing method was based on his son's age, etc. That being the case, we could be
      > reading Abraham's dissuadingwords to his
      > son from non-Judaic practices, as an
      > absolute to all who read his book, when that was not the intention; it was never meant for us to
      > read.
      >  
      > Anyone have any thoughts on this?
      >  
      > Thanks,
      > AdamSod72
      >



    • AaronL
      ... You missed my point. Having stated that there is a Gnostic influence in Abramelin, I went on to use Gnostic terminology to illustrate the point. I did
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 29, 2011
        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
        >
        > Shalom,
        >
        > Funny, I never got my own email, but got Aarons' reply. BTW, thanks Aaron. :-)
        >
        > My comments are in brackets.
        >
        > Thanks again,
        > AdamSod72
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
        > To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:12 AM
        > Subject: [abramelin] Re: Two questions about astrology
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod wrote:

        > [I agree that this is based on (Jewish) Gnostism. I personally think process is probably Essene in nature.  I see your point, but to me, your stance is based on your interpretation of 'spiritual and supernatural things'. I was taking it more along the lines of 'spiritual minded' vs. mundane, and things not (easily) explained through science. I'm not saying your are wrong, but would like you to explain how you came to the conclusion that those words are a indirect/direct reference to Archons, Aeons and the Barrier.]
        >

        You missed my point. Having stated that there is a Gnostic influence in Abramelin, I went on to use Gnostic terminology to illustrate the point. I did not mean that Abraham was *literally* writing about the Great Barrier, Archons or the Pleroma. Only that his ideas (on this matter) descend from there.

        I do not see any reason to believe Abraham used the words "spiritual" and "supernatural" the way we use it - as antonyms for "mundane." The worldview he presents includes the stars as part of the natural world. And he describes magick that uses astrology and other elements of nature as "natural effects."

        Meanwhile, he uses the term "supernatural" quite literally: meaning "above nature" and thus above the stars. He also uses the word "spiritual" in a very Gnostic/Platonic manner - meaning "having nothing to do with mattter" or with the forces of nature. Thus he is essentially describing the Pleroma or Atziluth.

        On the other hand, he states that the True and Sacred Magick is beyond the considerations of astrology because it is supernatural - or what we today would call supercelestial.

        > [That was a thought that I had too, that astrology had nothing to do with the HGA.]

        Exactly. Your Nativity Angel is connected entirely to your birth chart. Your HGA is beyond that - pure white divine brilliance - a direct representative of the Sheckina/Christos/Holy Spirit.

        > > What is the difference between a truly powerful magician using the stars to tell him when to make a mojo
        > > bag or talisman to successfully acquire great wealth and an Abramelin mage using
        > > a magic square? The only difference I can think of is that Abraham would say
        > > that the former, is a method inwhich the demons are secretly granting the
        > > magician's wishes in an attempt to lure
        > > him into a pact. Which could be easily countered by his own words stating the
        > > twelve magical arts and that he admits that the elements and stars have the
        > > ability to affect natural things.
        >
        > I think you missed the fact that Abraham is talking about two entirely different things.

        > [That may be true, but I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion he is talking from a Gnostic standpoint.]
        >

        As you and I both agree, Abramelin is a Gnostic-influenced text. (Abramelin was an Egyptian mage after all.) Thus it is no surprise to see Gnostic-influenced ideas contained there.

        LVX
        Aaron
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