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Re: [abramelin] Re: A question about the operation

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  • Serpentis Satori
    From: goldlion973 Subject: [abramelin] Re: A question about the operation To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 20, 2011,
    Message 1 of 14 , May 20, 2011
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      From: goldlion973 <rebel_lion973@...>
      Subject: [abramelin] Re: A question about the operation
      To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, May 20, 2011, 6:47 AM


      The notion of duality is what gets me here, before reading "after the angel" I assumed that each persons experience of the angel would vary but noticed the similarity between accounts.

      *** No the successes in both Operations, show the same results of others that succeed in That Operation.

      *** I've come to see, and today assume; they are different Powers with very different origins in the Tradition, and only since Crowley have we even assumed The Auto-genii, as The Same as The Voice of Wisdom.

      *** The Hebrew Tradition makes no reference atoll to something akin to the Auto-genii; and the Daimon of Socrates, and the Bornless One, not a single Greek Source refers to a "retreat", not in Pericles' time, Alexanders (or Thysecles who has a whole chapter on Egypt, nor Xenophon), even in Augtine Rome or Julians' Time there is no reference to "the retreat of the magi". None.

      *** The Hebrew Tradition continual referes to the Voice of Wisdom/Prophecty; Guide of Isreal/Moses; but talks nothing upon the Bornless One either.

      *** Those who have completed both note, as Aaron just did, they are not the same Working or Power.

      **** I will leave you with this, from Abulifi's Sepher OT, where he is clearly refering to the Voice of Prophecy/Abramelin the Jew-

      This is what my heart of hearts told my innermost heart,
      to write the paths of the name in combinations that are
      inverteda nd straight,r ecognizedb y those who are wise in
      the language.
      All these are the names of the temple, and they sanctifiT
      the Ruchot (nlnfl, spirib) and awaken the powers to
      enlighten the ennobled to comprehend the uppermost
      abundance that runs to save the wisemen of the land, is
      pious men, the just people of the world, and the righteous
      of this life from the lowest underurorld.
      Here is the honored and fearful Name in which he was
      created with the weight of the revealed; and the Name of
      his rider is "blood", masculine and feminine, the name of
      the father and mother in the name that is large with power,
      sealed together.
      Yod bears witness to the Merkava (ilf)lD. chariot).
      which is the height of He (Nn) up to the heighi of Vav (\1J,
      which witnesses the split dividing them into He He Vav
      Vav Yol (t1nn), one half in the other, as a separation that
      is joined together.
      Height that transforms height is drawn in and drawn
      back. for the Ruach ,4v (1N) rises. and the Ruach Av
      descends.
      So the name of the final He seals the Shekhinah (ilJt)llr,
      Divine Presence), arid in it hang the prophecies and
      salvations for every sp€aking, thinking Nefesh.
      Therefore, all wise men who seek prophecy and salvation
      will examine the power of the He. They will be moved by
      lhe Ruach of the Yod and move it from ib place; they will
      hold it with a spike in a trusted place. And those who
      attempt it will examine, believe, and understand.




       The notion of its external influence dosen't gel with the idea of the realization of the unification of all things, it has to be a part of oneself made manifiest and in which case at some point it would have to reunifiy itself with you as it leads/guides you to enlightenment... will root around for Khem's post...

      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Serpentis Satori <serpentsatori@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I agree. I think Khem's recent post on the Shekinah/Voice of Prophecy as the Abramelin Angel was fairly conclusive, and ilistrates its Separation and Different from the Daimon/HGA.
      >
      >
    • chrys.alis
      Just my own personal observation, thus far (Note: I have not yet completed the working, although am over a year in and drawing close to the end). I have come
      Message 2 of 14 , May 20, 2011
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        Just my own personal observation, thus far (Note: I have not yet completed the working, although am over a year in and drawing close to the end).

        I have come to believe through my experience thus far that the angel is not a part of you, but rather that you are a part of it.

        This allows both for the influence of something external to you (the angel is literally 'bigger' than you are, and contains much that you are not), and also for unification.

        With much love,
        -Chrysalis



        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "goldlion973" <rebel_lion973@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > The notion of duality is what gets me here, before reading "after the angel" I assumed that each persons experience of the angel would vary but noticed the similarity between accounts. The notion of its external influence dosen't gel with the idea of the realization of the unification of all things, it has to be a part of oneself made manifiest and in which case at some point it would have to reunifiy itself with you as it leads/guides you to enlightenment... will root around for Khem's post...
        >
        > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Serpentis Satori <serpentsatori@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > I agree. I think Khem's recent post on the Shekinah/Voice of Prophecy as the Abramelin Angel was fairly conclusive, and ilistrates its Separation and Different from the Daimon/HGA.
        > >
        > > --- On Fri, 5/20/11, AaronL <kheph777@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: AaronL <kheph777@>
        > > Subject: [abramelin] Re: A question about the operation
        > > To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Friday, May 20, 2011, 12:55 AM
        > >
        > >
        > > Personally, I have found the Holy Guardian Angel to be an external influence - not one and the same with my own Higher Self/Genius.  What is it about this approach that you find confusing?
        > >
        > > LVX
        > > Aaron
        > >
        > > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Shaun Miller <rebel_lion973@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > After much reading on the operation and what it involves I've started wondering about a few things that only really peaked my intrested after reading the latest account of the ritual. Being involved in and having tried  diffrent approaches to spirituality I'm left confused as to the Abramelins external approach to the HGA, as though it were an external agency to oneself something that operates apart from ones own actions giving directions and so on... how does this compare to others more internal approach to enlightenment?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks
        > > > /shaun/
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        >
      • Adam Sod
        Hi Aaron. I was thinking you accepted the idea that it is an internal influence because it is a marriage in your head. If so, how could it be external. Thanks
        Message 3 of 14 , May 20, 2011
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          Hi Aaron. I was thinking you accepted the idea that it is an internal influence because it is a marriage in your head. If so, how could it be external.

          Thanks in advance,
          AdamSod72

          --- On Fri, 5/20/11, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:

          From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
          Subject: [abramelin] Re: A question about the operation
          To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, May 20, 2011, 12:55 AM

           

          Personally, I have found the Holy Guardian Angel to be an external influence - not one and the same with my own Higher Self/Genius. What is it about this approach that you find confusing?

          LVX
          Aaron

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Shaun Miller <rebel_lion973@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > After much reading on the operation and what it involves I've started wondering about a few things that only really peaked my intrested after reading the latest account of the ritual. Being involved in and having tried diffrent approaches to spirituality I'm left confused as to the Abramelins external approach to the HGA, as though it were an external agency to oneself something that operates apart from ones own actions giving directions and so on... how does this compare to others more internal approach to enlightenment?
          >
          > Thanks
          > /shaun/
          >

        • Shaun
          Hope I m replying in the same thread here... so its taken that as the Angel is to lead you to divine awareness Ie; an understanding of the divine essence or
          Message 4 of 14 , May 21, 2011
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            Hope I'm replying in the same thread here... so its taken that as the
            Angel is to lead you to divine awareness Ie; an understanding of the
            divine essence or the unification of all things then it must lead you to
            an understanding of itself within you. Distinct division dosen't bode
            well with Kabbalistic concepts. When in touch with the divine aspect of
            oneself in a sucessful ritual/practice it wouldn't be possible to see
            the angel as being anything but a part of a grand whole of which you
            would now be aware of.... and as such it would have to find its place
            within your micrososm also.

            On a side note it would be interesting to know how much of a cultural
            influence shapes ones experience of the angel, it should well be
            possible to follow the format outlined but apply it to Egyptian psalms
            and divine utterings for example, espeically if the rite is to be taken
            as being a solar practice and one from the region at that, of course
            people will know that many of the Psalms are actually from there also...
            I would like to opinion that the rite itself may well have originated
            there and found sucessive interpretation outside of its cultural value
            system... if one were to relate to it from a perspective forign to
            "angels" and "demons" as in Hebrew/christian culture would the
            experience of the angel be any diffrent? Would it be a Loa, a neter, a
            hindu diety?
          • AaronL
            ... Sure, at the highest level all things are One Thing - everything goes back ultimately to Kether, and from there to the Ain. I am you and you are me and I
            Message 5 of 14 , May 21, 2011
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              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "goldlion973" <rebel_lion973@...> wrote:
              >
              > The notion of duality is what gets me here, before reading "after the angel" I assumed that each persons experience of the angel would vary but noticed the similarity between accounts. The notion of its external influence dosen't gel with the idea of the realization of the unification of all things, it has to be a part of oneself made manifiest and in which case at some point it would have to reunifiy itself with you as it leads/guides you to enlightenment...

              Sure, at the highest level all things are One Thing - everything goes back ultimately to Kether, and from there to the Ain. I am you and you are me and I am your HGA and your HGA is that rock on the ground, etc, etc, etc.

              But if you're going to resort to that, then there is no reason to differentiate between or do anything whatsoever. We should all just give up this nonsense about Angels and magick and mysticism - as well as relationships and careers and life - and just go meditate in a cave until we pass on.

              But, we don't live in Kether or the Ain, and we choose not to live in a cave. And out here in this world of false-dualities, the Holy Guardian Angel described by Abramelin is not merely an aspect of your Self made manifest.

              LVX
              Aaron
            • Jason Blackburn
              if you go join a Christian monastic community  it would be a start too  regardsjason blackburn ... From: AaronL Subject: [abramelin]
              Message 6 of 14 , May 21, 2011
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                if you go join a Christian monastic community  it would be a start too 

                regards
                jason blackburn

                --- On Sun, 22/5/11, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:

                From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
                Subject: [abramelin] Re: A question about the operation
                To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Sunday, 22 May, 2011, 6:29 AM

                 


                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "goldlion973" <rebel_lion973@...> wrote:
                >
                > The notion of duality is what gets me here, before reading "after the angel" I assumed that each persons experience of the angel would vary but noticed the similarity between accounts. The notion of its external influence dosen't gel with the idea of the realization of the unification of all things, it has to be a part of oneself made manifiest and in which case at some point it would have to reunifiy itself with you as it leads/guides you to enlightenment...

                Sure, at the highest level all things are One Thing - everything goes back ultimately to Kether, and from there to the Ain. I am you and you are me and I am your HGA and your HGA is that rock on the ground, etc, etc, etc.

                But if you're going to resort to that, then there is no reason to differentiate between or do anything whatsoever. We should all just give up this nonsense about Angels and magick and mysticism - as well as relationships and careers and life - and just go meditate in a cave until we pass on.

                But, we don't live in Kether or the Ain, and we choose not to live in a cave. And out here in this world of false-dualities, the Holy Guardian Angel described by Abramelin is not merely an aspect of your Self made manifest.

                LVX
                Aaron

              • AaronL
                ... The HGA does not arise from within the Self, and it is not an embodiment of the mind of the aspirant. The HGA is an external entity that you call down to
                Message 7 of 14 , May 21, 2011
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                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Aaron. I was thinking you accepted the idea that it is an internal influence because it is a marriage in your head. If so, how could it be external.
                  >

                  The HGA does not arise from within the Self, and it is not an embodiment of the mind of the aspirant. The HGA is an external entity that you call down to bond with you. Afterward, certainly, it will have plenty of internal *and* external influences upon you. :)

                  LVX
                  Aaron
                • AaronL
                  ... I think this is making undue assumptions about what your Angel will have to teach you. *Perhaps* your HGA will lead you down a path that depends on the
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 22, 2011
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                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Shaun <rebel_lion973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hope I'm replying in the same thread here... so its taken that as the
                    > Angel is to lead you to divine awareness Ie; an understanding of the
                    > divine essence or the unification of all things then it must lead you to
                    > an understanding of itself within you.

                    I think this is making undue assumptions about what your Angel will have to teach you. *Perhaps* your HGA will lead you down a path that depends on the kind of philosophy you describe. He might even tell you to join a Buddhist Temple, if that is where you are supposed to be. Or, he might have an entirely different path he wants you to follow.

                    Let the Angel be *your* teacher, rather than assuming you know what it will teach.

                    LVX
                    Aaron
                  • Shaun
                    _/But, we don t live in Kether or the Ain, and we choose not to live in a cave. And out here in this world of false-dualities, the Holy Guardian Angel
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 22, 2011
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                      But, we don't live in Kether or the Ain, and we choose not to live in a cave. And out here in this world of false-dualities, the Holy Guardian Angel described by Abramelin is not merely an aspect of your Self made manifest.

                      Ah but we do live in Kether regardless of how we may like to see things, all is one... isn't that statement the basis of ALL magick, of symbols and symbolic acts? Actions of the whole mirorred in each and every waking moment, malnipulating a knowledge of that fact to reconnect to our place and purpose in the grand sceme of things? Then also as it is the purpose of life on earth, to make room for Gods creative fore to manifest, that could be the only purpose the Angel could ever teach or direct, that way of return, be that through the realizations to be had in working some place or adjusting to a lifestyle, and in that way of return is again, the realization that the angel isn't at all external to your consiousness... it would be impossible to sit in a state of Samadhi and consider anything apart from any thing... or ones path in life as anything but a path to that moment of self realization :-)

                      Thanks for your paper on the operation by the way, was insightful.

                      Peace
                      /s/


                    • AaronL
                      ... This has nothing at all to do with the Book of Abramelin. ... No... do you honestly believe that all magick throughout history was based on the Qabalah?
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 23, 2011
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                        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Shaun <rebel_lion973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > _Ah but we do live in Kether regardless of how we may like to see
                        > things, all is one...

                        This has nothing at all to do with the Book of Abramelin.

                        > isn't that statement the basis of ALL magick, of
                        > symbols and symbolic acts?

                        No... do you honestly believe that all magick throughout history was based on the Qabalah?

                        > Actions of the whole mirorred in each and
                        > every waking moment, malnipulating a knowledge of that fact to reconnect
                        > to our place and purpose in the grand sceme of things? Then also as it
                        > is the purpose of life on earth, to make room for Gods creative fore to
                        > manifest, that could be the only purpose the Angel could ever teach or
                        > direct,
                        [SNIP]

                        I see nothing in your above words based upon actual experience of the HGA. Throughout all of these spiritual platitudes, do you not recognize the wisdom of approaching your HGA with some humility and an idea that you might not already know everything he has to teach you?

                        > it would be impossible to sit in a state of Samadhi
                        > and consider anything apart from any thing... or ones path in life as
                        > anything but a path to that moment of self realization :-)

                        I've read and re-read both versions of the Book of Abramelin, and no-where in either text does Abraham mention "Samdhi." You seem to be confusing Abramelin with something else...

                        > Thanks for your paper on the operation by the way, was insightful.

                        You are most welcome. :)

                        LVX
                        Aaron
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