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Re: [abramelin] Re: Making the HGA physically appear

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  • Scarlet
    Think we may need to clarify physical . Everything physical is measurable by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of nature. This the HGA is
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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      Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is measurable by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of nature. This the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to be a common through out.
       
      Will
      Love
      ALWays
       
      Scarlet

       
      On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
      Physically appear?  Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting with your HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
      I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny little triangle LOL.
      Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt about it happening!  So I don't think physical is necessary :)


      Athena
      --
      "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

      www.nightshademagic.com
      www.enochian.org
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin


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    • pathofchrist
      The reason I had asked about physical was because I could communicate with the HGA through my thoughts or astrally but he did not appear in my apartment. As I
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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        The reason I had asked about physical was because I could
        communicate with the HGA through my thoughts or astrally but he did
        not appear in my apartment. As I came closer to my 8th Aethyr
        skrying my confidence in him became stronger.

        I was wondering was whether your HGA appears right in front of you
        like say a misty figure. I was not thinking about the form of a
        human body.
        pathofchrist


        So he replied "it's not yet time". I
        asked "why" and he replied, "because there is no need".
        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:
        >
        > Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is
        measurable
        > by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of
        nature. This
        > the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to
        be a common
        > through out.
        >
        > Will
        > Love
        > ALWays
        >
        > Scarlet
        >
        >
        > On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Physically appear? Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting
        with your
        > > HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
        > > I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny
        little
        > > triangle LOL.
        > > Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt
        about it
        > > happening! So I don't think physical is necessary :)
        > >
        > > Athena
        > > --
        > > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword
        and eaten
        > > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
        > >
        > > www.nightshademagic.com
        > > www.enochian.org
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
        > >
        > >
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      • pathofchrist
        I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said it is not yet time . So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday since passing the 8th
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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          I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
          not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
          since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
          stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

          I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
          coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
          called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
          the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
          in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

          pathofchrist

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Nightshademagic dot com
          <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have worked with the ENochian aethyres (Dee style and my
          own "nightside"
          > style) and I have completed the Abramelin. To me they were both
          very
          > different, but did have some of the same charactereistics,
          especially once I
          > got into the "nightside" aethyres. Yes it is something I came up
          with
          > borrowing an idea or 2 from Grant.
          >
          > I think that Enochian could be made into a meet and unite
          (permanantly) with
          > your HGA rite, but not as is. THere would have to be the
          seclusion, the
          > calling and commanding the averse forces, as well as an inherant
          energy
          > stream within the system that was geared primarly for that
          purpose. I found
          > that with the Abramelin rite, there is an underlying energy that
          brings the
          > magician along to where they need to be so that they can achieve
          the final
          > outcome.
          >
          > Now 7 months of seclusion and going through the athyres, well that
          might be
          > possible if while going throught the athyres the magician learned
          so much in
          > each aethyre that they could incorperate into uniting with the
          HGA. Uniting
          > with your HGA is one thing, keeping your damn HGA around is
          another LOL.
          >
          > I have also found though that with your HGA the relationship does
          get closer
          > and closer, so no matter how you met them, there is always more
          work to be
          > done... :) Of course a "glued on" HGA is handy during the bad
          days LOL
          >
          > Athena
          >
          > --
          > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and
          eaten
          > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
          >
          > www.nightshademagic.com
          > www.enochian.org
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
          >
        • Nightshademagic dot com
          ... OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got friendly with them all and asked instead of commanded LOL. BUt for commanding about
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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            On 2/8/06, pathofchrist <c3u9@...> wrote:
            I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
            not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
            since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
            stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

            I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
            coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
            called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
            the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
            in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

            pathofchrist

            OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got friendly with them all and asked instead of commanded LOL.
            BUt for commanding about anyone/anything, invoke your HGA very strongly, then do it.  Works amazingly well!
            You did get them to swear an oath right?  My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc.  as well as I took out my list of things that they were to help me overcome and not ever use to hinder me :)  Yes I am bad about going by the book LOL

            Athena
            --
            "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

            www.nightshademagic.com
            www.enochian.org
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
          • Scarlet
            You did get them to swear an oath right? My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc. as
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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              "You did get them to swear an oath right?  My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc.  as well as I took out my list of things that they were to help me overcome and not ever use to hinder me :)  Yes I am bad about going by the book LOL"
               
              This would have been very close to some Ancient Greek and Egyptian thought too.  Malific enterties then were fed and respected so that they wouldn't trip you up. Rather than bound to do 'something' almost like a slave. Though later  Hellanistic rites do follow the more Solomonic attitude.
               
              It is interesting that Exu in some forms of ATRs can be treated in this way. He's first to be fed, then gently escorted out to the street so that the invocation of other Orisha can take place, without him playing tricks or causing harm.
               
              Will
              Love
              ALWays
               
              Scarlet
               

               
              On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
              On 2/8/06, pathofchrist < c3u9@...> wrote:
              I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
              not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
              since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
              stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

              I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
              coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
              called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
              the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
              in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

              pathofchrist

              OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got friendly with them all and asked instead of commanded LOL.
              BUt for commanding about anyone/anything, invoke your HGA very strongly, then do it.  Works amazingly well!
              You did get them to swear an oath right?  My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc.  as well as I took out my list of things that they were to help me overcome and not ever use to hinder me :)  Yes I am bad about going by the book LOL


              Athena
              --
              "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

              www.nightshademagic.com
              www.enochian.org
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin


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            • Scarlet
              Well...there is a section in Abramelin that talks about a Lamen or Silver plate that the HGA actually writes upon before it disappears. I think that is the
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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                Well...there is a section in Abramelin that talks about a Lamen or Silver plate that the HGA actually "writes" upon before it disappears. I think that is the closest to physicality we get with Abramelin.
                 
                Will
                Love
                ALWays
                 
                Scarlet 

                 
                On 2/8/06, pathofchrist <c3u9@...> wrote:
                I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
                not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
                since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
                stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

                I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
                coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
                called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
                in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

                pathofchrist

                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Nightshademagic dot com

                <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have worked with the ENochian aethyres (Dee style and my
                own "nightside"
                > style) and I have completed the Abramelin.  To me they were both
                very
                > different, but did have some of the same charactereistics,
                especially once I
                > got into the "nightside" aethyres.  Yes it is something I came up
                with
                > borrowing an idea or 2 from Grant.
                >
                > I think that Enochian could be made into a meet and unite
                (permanantly) with
                > your HGA rite, but not as is.  THere would have to be the
                seclusion, the
                > calling and commanding the averse forces, as well as an inherant
                energy
                > stream within the system that was geared primarly for that
                purpose.  I found
                > that with the Abramelin rite, there is an underlying energy that
                brings the
                > magician along to where they need to be so that they can achieve
                the final
                > outcome.
                >
                > Now 7 months of seclusion and going through the athyres, well that
                might be
                > possible if while going throught the athyres the magician learned
                so much in
                > each aethyre that they could incorperate into uniting with the
                HGA.  Uniting
                > with your HGA is one thing, keeping your damn HGA around is
                another LOL.
                >
                > I have also found though that with your HGA the relationship does
                get closer
                > and closer, so no matter how you met them, there is always more
                work to be
                > done... :)  Of course a "glued on" HGA is handy during the bad
                days LOL
                >
                > Athena
                >
                > --
                > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and
                eaten
                > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                >
                > www.nightshademagic.com
                > www.enochian.org
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                >







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              • Scarlet
                Hey Aaron, About your super-celestial HGA...Here s a funny description from Abramelin. Finally, let us conclude that from the divine mystery are derived these
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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                  Hey Aaron,
                   
                  About your super-celestial HGA...Here's a funny description from Abramelin.

                   
                  "Finally, let us conclude that from the divine mystery are derived these three kinds of Qabalah, viz.: the Mixed Qabalah, and the true wisdom, and the (true) magic. We will, therefore, show forth this last, and the manner of becoming its possessors in the name of God and of his celestial court!"
                   
                   Concerning the convocation of the good spirits

                  "Humiliate yourself before God and his celestial court, and commence your prayer with fervour, for then it is that you will begin to enflame yourself in praying, and you will see appear an extraordinary and supernatural splendour which will fill the whole apartment, and will surround you with an inexpressible odour, and this alone will console you and comfort your heart so that you shall call forever happy the Day of the Lord."

                   
                  So, I think Abramelin was certainly seeing the Angels as celestial. But then in English, celestial can both mean relating to heaven/divinity or sky/visible heavens - literally!
                   
                  Will
                  Love
                  ALWays
                   
                  Scarlet
                   
                  On 2/8/06, Aaron <Aaron@...> wrote:
                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Aaron,
                  >
                  > Think you have to remember that some people come to Enochian not through
                  > Dee, but through Crowley.

                  Oh yes, I know.  Part of my goal is to help folks realize that the
                  Enochian material they see in Crowley is a recension of a recension.
                  Folks attempt to make this kind of Enochian an all-encompassing
                  system, but it is not.

                  > In Crowley's Vision and the Voice he details how by using the call
                  of the
                  > 8th Aethyr he comes into conversation with his HGA. Though, to be

                  I have little doubt that Crowley met with his HGA while traveling
                  through the Gates.  Though gaining Conversation is only half the
                  story- gaining Knoweldge is the other half.

                  > Funny thing to note about Crowley's ideas is that ZID is given the
                  symbols
                  > of Leo and Aquarius and he says "These symbols refer to the
                  attainment of
                  > the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel."

                  As you likely know, this is all Crowley, and it has no basis
                  whatsoever in Dee's journals.

                  > Personally I have found Crowley's Liber LXV an amazing piece of work
                  about
                  > the relationship between an aspirant and their angel.

                  True - but we have to keep in mind it is specifically *Crowley's*
                  Angel.  Someone else's experience will likely be very different.
                  (And, if they are using Dee's original system instead, it will be
                  *very* different.)

                  > In some ways through
                  > this I think I recognise your "super-celestial" being.

                  Just to clarify, I mean "super-celestial" in the literal sense.
                  (Above the Celestial.)  It is a direct reference to the Gnostic
                  Pleroma (or Hebrew Atziluth)- which exists above the firmament of
                  stars.  The HGA comes from above your birth-chart and has no relation
                  to the stars whatsoever.  (As opposed to the Nativity Angel- or the
                  "Lesser Guardian Angel"- which is all about the stars.)

                  LVX
                  Aaron






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                • pathofchrist
                  I was also wondering about my method of invoking the Averse forces. I either focus on the sigils (i.e. the squares) or invoke them through astral vision with
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 8, 2006
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                    I was also wondering about my method of invoking the Averse forces.
                    I either focus on the sigils (i.e. the squares) or invoke them
                    through astral vision with eyes closed.

                    I am not sure whether I have to work on my clairvoyance skills and
                    would appreciate any tips you have on that. Is it necessary to bring
                    the averse forces into eyes open visible appearance in a triangle in
                    front of a circle like in the Keys of Solomon and have you tried
                    that.

                    pathofchrist


                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Nightshademagic dot com
                    <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 2/8/06, pathofchrist <c3u9@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it
                    is
                    > > not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing.
                    Everyday
                    > > since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
                    > > stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.
                    > >
                    > > I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths
                    after
                    > > coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had
                    previously
                    > > called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                    > > the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not
                    consistent
                    > > in following my orders. What would be your input on this?
                    > >
                    > > pathofchrist
                    > >
                    >
                    > OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got
                    friendly with
                    > them all and asked instead of commanded LOL.
                    > BUt for commanding about anyone/anything, invoke your HGA very
                    strongly,
                    > then do it. Works amazingly well!
                    > You did get them to swear an oath right? My oath was a little
                    diff, I had
                    > them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up,
                    harm me
                    > etc. as well as I took out my list of things that they were to
                    help me
                    > overcome and not ever use to hinder me :) Yes I am bad about
                    going by the
                    > book LOL
                    >
                    > Athena
                    > --
                    > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and
                    eaten
                    > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                    >
                    > www.nightshademagic.com
                    > www.enochian.org
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                    >
                  • Aaron
                    ... of ... I honestly don t know what you re talking about... ... paths. Oh, was I putting down another path? ... are ... is ... Well, let us take an example
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 10, 2006
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                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "pathofchrist" <c3u9@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Aaron, the first step of learning the Hidden Mysteries of any
                      > form of Magic is belief in it. Though you may have had a wonderful
                      > experience with Abramelin you should not discount all the Masters
                      of
                      > the past because of the affirmation that your positive experience
                      > gives you.

                      I honestly don't know what you're talking about...

                      > Remember, what Abraham himself says in the Abramelin book
                      > to not put down even your own former belief, let alone other
                      paths.

                      Oh, was I putting down another path?

                      > I personally do not subscribe to any specific system. To me they
                      are
                      > all part of the Cosmic Whole. The only time I focus on one method
                      is
                      > when I want to assess and differentiate its energy patterns from
                      > others. Otherwise I believe a person should be open to everything.
                      > Anything other approach distorts perspective and stifles growth.

                      Well, let us take an example then. If you want to summon an entity
                      from the "Goetia", do you grab a copy of the "Arbatel of Magic" and
                      start the conjurations? If not, aren't you distorting your
                      perspective and stiffling your growth?

                      LVX
                      Aaron
                    • Aaron
                      ... the ... I am not a Thelemite, and I have no interest in Crowley s system of Enochian. It is based on the Golden Dawn s system - which itself is far
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 11, 2006
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                        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:

                        > ++{smile} Nothing wrong with a good editor. Have you tried doing
                        the
                        > instructions laid down by Crowley's vision of the 8th Aethyr? I

                        I am not a Thelemite, and I have no interest in Crowley's system of
                        Enochian. It is based on the Golden Dawn's system - which itself is
                        far removed from Dee's records. Crowley's recension is even further
                        removed.

                        have
                        > found them to be an awesome solidification of methods found in
                        Abramelin.

                        The methods in Abramelin are already solid. You may like and enjoy
                        Crowley's take - but his system is neither *the* Enochian or
                        Abramelin systems.

                        As
                        > for the work Crowley did on Enochian, would you care to explain
                        what
                        > preclusion prevents it from being an encompassing system?

                        You're asking me to prove a negative. You will have to explain to
                        me exactly what makes it all-inclusive.

                        > > I have little doubt that Crowley met with his HGA while traveling
                        > > through the Gates. Though gaining Conversation is only half the
                        > > story- gaining Knoweldge is the other half.
                        >
                        >
                        > ++Not understanding you Aaron. You gain Knowledge of the holy
                        angels,
                        > enjoying their sight and their scared conversation - to paraphrase
                        > Abramelin.

                        You're paraphrasing Abramelin without understanding the
                        book. "Knowledge" and "Conversation" are two entirely different
                        things. "Conversation", obviously, means you have communication
                        with the HGA. "Knowledge" is used in its Biblical/Gnostic sense of
                        intimacy. The Abramelin Rite (unlike Enochian) is aimed at becoming
                        intimately bonded with the Angel. (The Angel is "put to your head.")

                        Enochian magick has nothing to do with either gaining Knowledge or
                        Conversation with the HGA. Never once in all of Dee's records is
                        *anything* said about an HGA.

                        > You seem to be separating two distinctive ideas here.

                        No, I'm afraid you are attempting to combine two distinctive ideas.
                        I was pretty clear that Knowledge and Conversation are very distinct.

                        > Both
                        > Abramelin and Crowley's Enochain work seem to follow essentially
                        the same
                        > ideas.

                        How so?

                        > > As you likely know, this is all Crowley, and it has no basis
                        > > whatsoever in Dee's journals.
                        >
                        > ++And?

                        Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Enochian magick
                        here. Apparently you care nothing for source material, so we'll
                        just leave Dee out of this...

                        Dee is not God, nor was Crowley. Dee's work may not be all
                        > encompassing so that nothing may be added or taken away. To stop
                        at Dee
                        > would seem short sighted to me.

                        It would be, yes. But I see it as rather short-sighted to debate
                        Enochian magick when one hasn't even *started* with Dee. A debate
                        where Dee is not allowed as a reference. Frankly, this conversation
                        is getting downright irritating. (Not directed at you personally -
                        just at this thread in general.)

                        > ++Personally I think you are debating the image, Aaron. If I were
                        to try and
                        > describe the HGA in Hebrew terms I'd go for the Neshamah...

                        The HGA is not an aspect of the Higher Self.

                        LVX
                        Aaron
                      • Aaron
                        Ah, wonderful! I love to hear someone apply simple physics to the physical manifestation question. :) As I tell others - they have no bodies to reflect
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 11, 2006
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                          Ah, wonderful! I love to hear someone apply simple physics to
                          the "physical manifestation" question. :) As I tell others - they
                          have no bodies to reflect light, and no vocal cords to vibrate air.

                          LVX
                          Aaron

                          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is
                          measurable
                          > by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of
                          nature. This
                          > the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to
                          be a common
                          > through out.
                          >
                          > Will
                          > Love
                          > ALWays
                          >
                          > Scarlet
                          >
                          >
                          > On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Physically appear? Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting
                          with your
                          > > HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
                          > > I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny
                          little
                          > > triangle LOL.
                          > > Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt
                          about it
                          > > happening! So I don't think physical is necessary :)
                          > >
                          > > Athena
                          > > --
                          > > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword
                          and eaten
                          > > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                          > >
                          > > www.nightshademagic.com
                          > > www.enochian.org
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > SPONSORED LINKS
                          > > Occult<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Occult&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+sup
                          ply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=2LTWpPlq4K0kAnvL93pF8A> Beyond
                          > > belief<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                          ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=_eq_mBE_hr6HwYiMUROKBA> Occult
                          > > book<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Occult+book&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occul
                          t+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=R0_JpsSj67zaYfAa1aI3Hg> Occult
                          > > supply<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Occult+supply&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                          ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=SqI2KSoJSVX9A3s3Lvsrbw>
                          > > Beliefs<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Beliefs&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+su
                          pply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=OtCpWzgOC3i0lczPN-HPlA>
                          > > ------------------------------
                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > - Visit your
                          group "abramelin<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin>"
                          > > on the web.
                          > >
                          > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<abramelin-
                          unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                          > >
                          > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------
                          > >
                          >
                        • Aaron
                          ... This is what I was trying to get at before. You are attempting to mix systems that don t mix well. That is the reason you are having trouble getting
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 11, 2006
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                            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "pathofchrist" <c3u9@...> wrote:

                            > I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
                            > coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
                            > called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                            > the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
                            > in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

                            This is what I was trying to get at before. You are attempting to mix
                            systems that don't mix well. That is the reason you are having
                            trouble getting those spirits to work for you. You have not done the
                            Rite that they expect you to have done. You have not summoned the
                            spirits *after* having the HGA put to your head. There is a complete
                            magickal system outlined in the third book of Abramelin, but you are
                            not following it.

                            I do apologize if you find my feedback offensive, but it is the
                            truth. I believe I will let this subject rest now.

                            LVX
                            Aaron
                          • Aaron
                            ... Abramelin. ... these ... wisdom, and ... the manner ... court! ... commence your ... yourself ... supernatural ... you with an ... your heart ...
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 11, 2006
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                              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:

                              > Hey Aaron,
                              >
                              > About your super-celestial HGA...Here's a funny description from
                              Abramelin.
                              >
                              > "Finally, let us conclude that from the divine mystery are derived
                              these
                              > three kinds of Qabalah, *viz.*: the Mixed Qabalah, and the true
                              wisdom, and
                              > the (true) magic. We will, therefore, show forth this last, and
                              the manner
                              > of becoming its possessors in the name of God and of his celestial
                              court!"
                              >
                              > Concerning the convocation of the good spirits
                              >
                              > "Humiliate yourself before God and his celestial court, and
                              commence your
                              > prayer with fervour, for then it is that you will begin to enflame
                              yourself
                              > in praying, and you will see appear an extraordinary and
                              supernatural
                              > splendour which will fill the whole apartment, and will surround
                              you with an
                              > inexpressible odour, and this alone will console you and comfort
                              your heart
                              > so that you shall call forever happy the Day of the Lord."
                              >
                              >
                              > So, I think Abramelin was certainly seeing the Angels as
                              celestial. But then
                              > in English, celestial can both mean relating to heaven/divinity or
                              > sky/visible heavens - literally!

                              I don't see where either quote you have offered indicates that the
                              HGA is celestial as opposed to super-celestial. My point is that
                              the HGA comes from beyond the band of fixed-stars. Which is exactly
                              where God's Divine Court would be...

                              LVX
                              Aaron
                            • pathofchrist
                              Hi Aaron, Thanks. I am not offended and do appreciate on the point feedback. Perhaps my success with the Enochian Aethrys had made me over- confident in
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 11, 2006
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                                Hi Aaron,
                                Thanks. I am not offended and do appreciate on the point feedback.
                                Perhaps my success with the Enochian Aethrys had made me over-
                                confident in attempting the Abramelin rite and I may have missed
                                taking it on literally. How much I thought all the Astral travels to
                                the Aethyrs had subdued my ego, but there it resurged again.
                                However, I will reattempt the seven-day rite in my physical temple
                                (instead of astral like last time).
                                pathofchrist

                                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" <Aaron@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "pathofchrist" <c3u9@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths
                                after
                                > > coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had
                                previously
                                > > called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started
                                skrying
                                > > the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not
                                consistent
                                > > in following my orders. What would be your input on this?
                                >
                                > This is what I was trying to get at before. You are attempting to
                                mix
                                > systems that don't mix well. That is the reason you are having
                                > trouble getting those spirits to work for you. You have not done
                                the
                                > Rite that they expect you to have done. You have not summoned the
                                > spirits *after* having the HGA put to your head. There is a
                                complete
                                > magickal system outlined in the third book of Abramelin, but you
                                are
                                > not following it.
                                >
                                > I do apologize if you find my feedback offensive, but it is the
                                > truth. I believe I will let this subject rest now.
                                >
                                > LVX
                                > Aaron
                                >
                              • pathofchrist
                                Thanks Aaron. Went through my ritual study material again where the thought of HGA appearing physically had first come to me as I had not revisited it since
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 11, 2006
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                                  Thanks Aaron. Went through my ritual study material again where the
                                  thought of HGA appearing physically had first come to me as I had
                                  not revisited it since working on Enochian. Here is the quote I got:
                                  "Wherefore behold! Into this brazen cauldron I cast this wine, this
                                  bread and salt, and finally this rose, that their essences may be
                                  volatilized by the O which is beneath. Accept now these elements
                                  thus volatized by the O, and from them form a body by me and in me,
                                  that Thou, my Genius, the Spirit of my soul,mayest manifest Thyself
                                  physically unto me, for my assistance in the Great Work."

                                  It makes sense now because I had not noticed the "body by me and in
                                  me" and "physically unto me". I was thinking more like "physically
                                  in front of me". I hope this clears this thread up.

                                  pathofchrist

                                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" <Aaron@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ah, wonderful! I love to hear someone apply simple physics to
                                  > the "physical manifestation" question. :) As I tell others -
                                  they
                                  > have no bodies to reflect light, and no vocal cords to vibrate air.
                                  >
                                  > LVX
                                  > Aaron
                                  >
                                  > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is
                                  > measurable
                                  > > by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of
                                  > nature. This
                                  > > the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to
                                  > be a common
                                  > > through out.
                                  > >
                                  > > Will
                                  > > Love
                                  > > ALWays
                                  > >
                                  > > Scarlet
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Physically appear? Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting
                                  > with your
                                  > > > HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
                                  > > > I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my
                                  tiny
                                  > little
                                  > > > triangle LOL.
                                  > > > Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any
                                  doubt
                                  > about it
                                  > > > happening! So I don't think physical is necessary :)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Athena
                                  > > > --
                                  > > > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword
                                  > and eaten
                                  > > > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                                  > > >
                                  > > > www.nightshademagic.com
                                  > > > www.enochian.org
                                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                  > > > Occult<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  >
                                  t=ms&k=Occult&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+sup
                                  > ply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=2LTWpPlq4K0kAnvL93pF8A> Beyond
                                  > > > belief<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  >
                                  t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                                  > ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=_eq_mBE_hr6HwYiMUROKBA> Occult
                                  > > > book<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  >
                                  t=ms&k=Occult+book&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occul
                                  > t+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=R0_JpsSj67zaYfAa1aI3Hg> Occult
                                  > > > supply<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  >
                                  t=ms&k=Occult+supply&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                                  > ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=SqI2KSoJSVX9A3s3Lvsrbw>
                                  > > > Beliefs<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  >
                                  t=ms&k=Beliefs&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+su
                                  > pply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=OtCpWzgOC3i0lczPN-HPlA>
                                  > > > ------------------------------
                                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > - Visit your
                                  > group "abramelin<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin>"
                                  > > > on the web.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<abramelin-
                                  > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                  of
                                  > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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