Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [abramelin] Re: Making the HGA physically appear

Expand Messages
  • Nightshademagic dot com
    Physically appear? Oh don t worry about it, not like uniting with your HGA isn t the strongest magical experience already I think I would see it as trying
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 8 1:02 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Physically appear?  Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting with your HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
      I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny little triangle LOL.
      Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt about it happening!  So I don't think physical is necessary :)

      Athena
      --
      "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

      www.nightshademagic.com
      www.enochian.org
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
    • Scarlet
      Think we may need to clarify physical . Everything physical is measurable by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of nature. This the HGA is
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 8 1:49 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is measurable by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of nature. This the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to be a common through out.
         
        Will
        Love
        ALWays
         
        Scarlet

         
        On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
        Physically appear?  Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting with your HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
        I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny little triangle LOL.
        Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt about it happening!  So I don't think physical is necessary :)


        Athena
        --
        "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

        www.nightshademagic.com
        www.enochian.org
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin


        SPONSORED LINKS
        Occult Beyond belief Occult book
        Occult supply Beliefs


        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




      • pathofchrist
        The reason I had asked about physical was because I could communicate with the HGA through my thoughts or astrally but he did not appear in my apartment. As I
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 8 2:01 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          The reason I had asked about physical was because I could
          communicate with the HGA through my thoughts or astrally but he did
          not appear in my apartment. As I came closer to my 8th Aethyr
          skrying my confidence in him became stronger.

          I was wondering was whether your HGA appears right in front of you
          like say a misty figure. I was not thinking about the form of a
          human body.
          pathofchrist


          So he replied "it's not yet time". I
          asked "why" and he replied, "because there is no need".
          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:
          >
          > Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is
          measurable
          > by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of
          nature. This
          > the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to
          be a common
          > through out.
          >
          > Will
          > Love
          > ALWays
          >
          > Scarlet
          >
          >
          > On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Physically appear? Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting
          with your
          > > HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
          > > I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny
          little
          > > triangle LOL.
          > > Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt
          about it
          > > happening! So I don't think physical is necessary :)
          > >
          > > Athena
          > > --
          > > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword
          and eaten
          > > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
          > >
          > > www.nightshademagic.com
          > > www.enochian.org
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
          > >
          > >
          > > SPONSORED LINKS
          > > Occult<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Occult&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+sup
          ply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=2LTWpPlq4K0kAnvL93pF8A> Beyond
          > > belief<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
          ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=_eq_mBE_hr6HwYiMUROKBA> Occult
          > > book<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Occult+book&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occul
          t+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=R0_JpsSj67zaYfAa1aI3Hg> Occult
          > > supply<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Occult+supply&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
          ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=SqI2KSoJSVX9A3s3Lvsrbw>
          > > Beliefs<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Beliefs&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+su
          pply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=OtCpWzgOC3i0lczPN-HPlA>
          > > ------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > >
          > > - Visit your
          group "abramelin<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin>"
          > > on the web.
          > >
          > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<abramelin-
          unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          > >
          > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------
          > >
          >
        • pathofchrist
          I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said it is not yet time . So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday since passing the 8th
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 8 2:12 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
            not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
            since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
            stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

            I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
            coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
            called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
            the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
            in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

            pathofchrist

            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Nightshademagic dot com
            <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have worked with the ENochian aethyres (Dee style and my
            own "nightside"
            > style) and I have completed the Abramelin. To me they were both
            very
            > different, but did have some of the same charactereistics,
            especially once I
            > got into the "nightside" aethyres. Yes it is something I came up
            with
            > borrowing an idea or 2 from Grant.
            >
            > I think that Enochian could be made into a meet and unite
            (permanantly) with
            > your HGA rite, but not as is. THere would have to be the
            seclusion, the
            > calling and commanding the averse forces, as well as an inherant
            energy
            > stream within the system that was geared primarly for that
            purpose. I found
            > that with the Abramelin rite, there is an underlying energy that
            brings the
            > magician along to where they need to be so that they can achieve
            the final
            > outcome.
            >
            > Now 7 months of seclusion and going through the athyres, well that
            might be
            > possible if while going throught the athyres the magician learned
            so much in
            > each aethyre that they could incorperate into uniting with the
            HGA. Uniting
            > with your HGA is one thing, keeping your damn HGA around is
            another LOL.
            >
            > I have also found though that with your HGA the relationship does
            get closer
            > and closer, so no matter how you met them, there is always more
            work to be
            > done... :) Of course a "glued on" HGA is handy during the bad
            days LOL
            >
            > Athena
            >
            > --
            > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and
            eaten
            > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
            >
            > www.nightshademagic.com
            > www.enochian.org
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
            >
          • Nightshademagic dot com
            ... OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got friendly with them all and asked instead of commanded LOL. BUt for commanding about
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 8 2:21 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              On 2/8/06, pathofchrist <c3u9@...> wrote:
              I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
              not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
              since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
              stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

              I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
              coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
              called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
              the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
              in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

              pathofchrist

              OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got friendly with them all and asked instead of commanded LOL.
              BUt for commanding about anyone/anything, invoke your HGA very strongly, then do it.  Works amazingly well!
              You did get them to swear an oath right?  My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc.  as well as I took out my list of things that they were to help me overcome and not ever use to hinder me :)  Yes I am bad about going by the book LOL

              Athena
              --
              "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

              www.nightshademagic.com
              www.enochian.org
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
            • Scarlet
              You did get them to swear an oath right? My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc. as
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 8 2:40 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                "You did get them to swear an oath right?  My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc.  as well as I took out my list of things that they were to help me overcome and not ever use to hinder me :)  Yes I am bad about going by the book LOL"
                 
                This would have been very close to some Ancient Greek and Egyptian thought too.  Malific enterties then were fed and respected so that they wouldn't trip you up. Rather than bound to do 'something' almost like a slave. Though later  Hellanistic rites do follow the more Solomonic attitude.
                 
                It is interesting that Exu in some forms of ATRs can be treated in this way. He's first to be fed, then gently escorted out to the street so that the invocation of other Orisha can take place, without him playing tricks or causing harm.
                 
                Will
                Love
                ALWays
                 
                Scarlet
                 

                 
                On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                On 2/8/06, pathofchrist < c3u9@...> wrote:
                I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
                not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
                since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
                stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

                I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
                coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
                called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
                in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

                pathofchrist

                OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got friendly with them all and asked instead of commanded LOL.
                BUt for commanding about anyone/anything, invoke your HGA very strongly, then do it.  Works amazingly well!
                You did get them to swear an oath right?  My oath was a little diff, I had them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up, harm me etc.  as well as I took out my list of things that they were to help me overcome and not ever use to hinder me :)  Yes I am bad about going by the book LOL


                Athena
                --
                "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and eaten with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"

                www.nightshademagic.com
                www.enochian.org
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin


                SPONSORED LINKS
                Occult Beyond belief Occult book
                Occult supply Beliefs


                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




              • Scarlet
                Well...there is a section in Abramelin that talks about a Lamen or Silver plate that the HGA actually writes upon before it disappears. I think that is the
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 8 2:50 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well...there is a section in Abramelin that talks about a Lamen or Silver plate that the HGA actually "writes" upon before it disappears. I think that is the closest to physicality we get with Abramelin.
                   
                  Will
                  Love
                  ALWays
                   
                  Scarlet 

                   
                  On 2/8/06, pathofchrist <c3u9@...> wrote:
                  I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it is
                  not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing. Everyday
                  since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
                  stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.

                  I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
                  coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
                  called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                  the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
                  in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

                  pathofchrist

                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Nightshademagic dot com

                  <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have worked with the ENochian aethyres (Dee style and my
                  own "nightside"
                  > style) and I have completed the Abramelin.  To me they were both
                  very
                  > different, but did have some of the same charactereistics,
                  especially once I
                  > got into the "nightside" aethyres.  Yes it is something I came up
                  with
                  > borrowing an idea or 2 from Grant.
                  >
                  > I think that Enochian could be made into a meet and unite
                  (permanantly) with
                  > your HGA rite, but not as is.  THere would have to be the
                  seclusion, the
                  > calling and commanding the averse forces, as well as an inherant
                  energy
                  > stream within the system that was geared primarly for that
                  purpose.  I found
                  > that with the Abramelin rite, there is an underlying energy that
                  brings the
                  > magician along to where they need to be so that they can achieve
                  the final
                  > outcome.
                  >
                  > Now 7 months of seclusion and going through the athyres, well that
                  might be
                  > possible if while going throught the athyres the magician learned
                  so much in
                  > each aethyre that they could incorperate into uniting with the
                  HGA.  Uniting
                  > with your HGA is one thing, keeping your damn HGA around is
                  another LOL.
                  >
                  > I have also found though that with your HGA the relationship does
                  get closer
                  > and closer, so no matter how you met them, there is always more
                  work to be
                  > done... :)  Of course a "glued on" HGA is handy during the bad
                  days LOL
                  >
                  > Athena
                  >
                  > --
                  > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and
                  eaten
                  > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                  >
                  > www.nightshademagic.com
                  > www.enochian.org
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                  >







                  SPONSORED LINKS
                  Occult Beyond belief Occult book
                  Occult supply Beliefs


                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




                • Scarlet
                  Hey Aaron, About your super-celestial HGA...Here s a funny description from Abramelin. Finally, let us conclude that from the divine mystery are derived these
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 8 3:02 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hey Aaron,
                     
                    About your super-celestial HGA...Here's a funny description from Abramelin.

                     
                    "Finally, let us conclude that from the divine mystery are derived these three kinds of Qabalah, viz.: the Mixed Qabalah, and the true wisdom, and the (true) magic. We will, therefore, show forth this last, and the manner of becoming its possessors in the name of God and of his celestial court!"
                     
                     Concerning the convocation of the good spirits

                    "Humiliate yourself before God and his celestial court, and commence your prayer with fervour, for then it is that you will begin to enflame yourself in praying, and you will see appear an extraordinary and supernatural splendour which will fill the whole apartment, and will surround you with an inexpressible odour, and this alone will console you and comfort your heart so that you shall call forever happy the Day of the Lord."

                     
                    So, I think Abramelin was certainly seeing the Angels as celestial. But then in English, celestial can both mean relating to heaven/divinity or sky/visible heavens - literally!
                     
                    Will
                    Love
                    ALWays
                     
                    Scarlet
                     
                    On 2/8/06, Aaron <Aaron@...> wrote:
                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Aaron,
                    >
                    > Think you have to remember that some people come to Enochian not through
                    > Dee, but through Crowley.

                    Oh yes, I know.  Part of my goal is to help folks realize that the
                    Enochian material they see in Crowley is a recension of a recension.
                    Folks attempt to make this kind of Enochian an all-encompassing
                    system, but it is not.

                    > In Crowley's Vision and the Voice he details how by using the call
                    of the
                    > 8th Aethyr he comes into conversation with his HGA. Though, to be

                    I have little doubt that Crowley met with his HGA while traveling
                    through the Gates.  Though gaining Conversation is only half the
                    story- gaining Knoweldge is the other half.

                    > Funny thing to note about Crowley's ideas is that ZID is given the
                    symbols
                    > of Leo and Aquarius and he says "These symbols refer to the
                    attainment of
                    > the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel."

                    As you likely know, this is all Crowley, and it has no basis
                    whatsoever in Dee's journals.

                    > Personally I have found Crowley's Liber LXV an amazing piece of work
                    about
                    > the relationship between an aspirant and their angel.

                    True - but we have to keep in mind it is specifically *Crowley's*
                    Angel.  Someone else's experience will likely be very different.
                    (And, if they are using Dee's original system instead, it will be
                    *very* different.)

                    > In some ways through
                    > this I think I recognise your "super-celestial" being.

                    Just to clarify, I mean "super-celestial" in the literal sense.
                    (Above the Celestial.)  It is a direct reference to the Gnostic
                    Pleroma (or Hebrew Atziluth)- which exists above the firmament of
                    stars.  The HGA comes from above your birth-chart and has no relation
                    to the stars whatsoever.  (As opposed to the Nativity Angel- or the
                    "Lesser Guardian Angel"- which is all about the stars.)

                    LVX
                    Aaron






                    SPONSORED LINKS
                    Occult Beyond belief Occult book
                    Occult supply Beliefs


                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




                  • pathofchrist
                    I was also wondering about my method of invoking the Averse forces. I either focus on the sigils (i.e. the squares) or invoke them through astral vision with
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 8 3:15 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I was also wondering about my method of invoking the Averse forces.
                      I either focus on the sigils (i.e. the squares) or invoke them
                      through astral vision with eyes closed.

                      I am not sure whether I have to work on my clairvoyance skills and
                      would appreciate any tips you have on that. Is it necessary to bring
                      the averse forces into eyes open visible appearance in a triangle in
                      front of a circle like in the Keys of Solomon and have you tried
                      that.

                      pathofchrist


                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Nightshademagic dot com
                      <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 2/8/06, pathofchrist <c3u9@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I did ask the HGA later if he can appear physically. He said "it
                      is
                      > > not yet time". So I take it to go on as I have been doing.
                      Everyday
                      > > since passing the 8th Aethyr my confidence becomes even more
                      > > stronger like as if there is a relationship developing.
                      > >
                      > > I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths
                      after
                      > > coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had
                      previously
                      > > called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                      > > the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not
                      consistent
                      > > in following my orders. What would be your input on this?
                      > >
                      > > pathofchrist
                      > >
                      >
                      > OH I am probably not the one to ask here, I just went and got
                      friendly with
                      > them all and asked instead of commanded LOL.
                      > BUt for commanding about anyone/anything, invoke your HGA very
                      strongly,
                      > then do it. Works amazingly well!
                      > You did get them to swear an oath right? My oath was a little
                      diff, I had
                      > them promise to never hold me back, get in the way, mess me up,
                      harm me
                      > etc. as well as I took out my list of things that they were to
                      help me
                      > overcome and not ever use to hinder me :) Yes I am bad about
                      going by the
                      > book LOL
                      >
                      > Athena
                      > --
                      > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword and
                      eaten
                      > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                      >
                      > www.nightshademagic.com
                      > www.enochian.org
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                      >
                    • Aaron
                      ... of ... I honestly don t know what you re talking about... ... paths. Oh, was I putting down another path? ... are ... is ... Well, let us take an example
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 10 11:51 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "pathofchrist" <c3u9@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Aaron, the first step of learning the Hidden Mysteries of any
                        > form of Magic is belief in it. Though you may have had a wonderful
                        > experience with Abramelin you should not discount all the Masters
                        of
                        > the past because of the affirmation that your positive experience
                        > gives you.

                        I honestly don't know what you're talking about...

                        > Remember, what Abraham himself says in the Abramelin book
                        > to not put down even your own former belief, let alone other
                        paths.

                        Oh, was I putting down another path?

                        > I personally do not subscribe to any specific system. To me they
                        are
                        > all part of the Cosmic Whole. The only time I focus on one method
                        is
                        > when I want to assess and differentiate its energy patterns from
                        > others. Otherwise I believe a person should be open to everything.
                        > Anything other approach distorts perspective and stifles growth.

                        Well, let us take an example then. If you want to summon an entity
                        from the "Goetia", do you grab a copy of the "Arbatel of Magic" and
                        start the conjurations? If not, aren't you distorting your
                        perspective and stiffling your growth?

                        LVX
                        Aaron
                      • Aaron
                        ... the ... I am not a Thelemite, and I have no interest in Crowley s system of Enochian. It is based on the Golden Dawn s system - which itself is far
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 11 12:08 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:

                          > ++{smile} Nothing wrong with a good editor. Have you tried doing
                          the
                          > instructions laid down by Crowley's vision of the 8th Aethyr? I

                          I am not a Thelemite, and I have no interest in Crowley's system of
                          Enochian. It is based on the Golden Dawn's system - which itself is
                          far removed from Dee's records. Crowley's recension is even further
                          removed.

                          have
                          > found them to be an awesome solidification of methods found in
                          Abramelin.

                          The methods in Abramelin are already solid. You may like and enjoy
                          Crowley's take - but his system is neither *the* Enochian or
                          Abramelin systems.

                          As
                          > for the work Crowley did on Enochian, would you care to explain
                          what
                          > preclusion prevents it from being an encompassing system?

                          You're asking me to prove a negative. You will have to explain to
                          me exactly what makes it all-inclusive.

                          > > I have little doubt that Crowley met with his HGA while traveling
                          > > through the Gates. Though gaining Conversation is only half the
                          > > story- gaining Knoweldge is the other half.
                          >
                          >
                          > ++Not understanding you Aaron. You gain Knowledge of the holy
                          angels,
                          > enjoying their sight and their scared conversation - to paraphrase
                          > Abramelin.

                          You're paraphrasing Abramelin without understanding the
                          book. "Knowledge" and "Conversation" are two entirely different
                          things. "Conversation", obviously, means you have communication
                          with the HGA. "Knowledge" is used in its Biblical/Gnostic sense of
                          intimacy. The Abramelin Rite (unlike Enochian) is aimed at becoming
                          intimately bonded with the Angel. (The Angel is "put to your head.")

                          Enochian magick has nothing to do with either gaining Knowledge or
                          Conversation with the HGA. Never once in all of Dee's records is
                          *anything* said about an HGA.

                          > You seem to be separating two distinctive ideas here.

                          No, I'm afraid you are attempting to combine two distinctive ideas.
                          I was pretty clear that Knowledge and Conversation are very distinct.

                          > Both
                          > Abramelin and Crowley's Enochain work seem to follow essentially
                          the same
                          > ideas.

                          How so?

                          > > As you likely know, this is all Crowley, and it has no basis
                          > > whatsoever in Dee's journals.
                          >
                          > ++And?

                          Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Enochian magick
                          here. Apparently you care nothing for source material, so we'll
                          just leave Dee out of this...

                          Dee is not God, nor was Crowley. Dee's work may not be all
                          > encompassing so that nothing may be added or taken away. To stop
                          at Dee
                          > would seem short sighted to me.

                          It would be, yes. But I see it as rather short-sighted to debate
                          Enochian magick when one hasn't even *started* with Dee. A debate
                          where Dee is not allowed as a reference. Frankly, this conversation
                          is getting downright irritating. (Not directed at you personally -
                          just at this thread in general.)

                          > ++Personally I think you are debating the image, Aaron. If I were
                          to try and
                          > describe the HGA in Hebrew terms I'd go for the Neshamah...

                          The HGA is not an aspect of the Higher Self.

                          LVX
                          Aaron
                        • Aaron
                          Ah, wonderful! I love to hear someone apply simple physics to the physical manifestation question. :) As I tell others - they have no bodies to reflect
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 11 12:12 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ah, wonderful! I love to hear someone apply simple physics to
                            the "physical manifestation" question. :) As I tell others - they
                            have no bodies to reflect light, and no vocal cords to vibrate air.

                            LVX
                            Aaron

                            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is
                            measurable
                            > by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of
                            nature. This
                            > the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to
                            be a common
                            > through out.
                            >
                            > Will
                            > Love
                            > ALWays
                            >
                            > Scarlet
                            >
                            >
                            > On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Physically appear? Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting
                            with your
                            > > HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
                            > > I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my tiny
                            little
                            > > triangle LOL.
                            > > Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any doubt
                            about it
                            > > happening! So I don't think physical is necessary :)
                            > >
                            > > Athena
                            > > --
                            > > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword
                            and eaten
                            > > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                            > >
                            > > www.nightshademagic.com
                            > > www.enochian.org
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > SPONSORED LINKS
                            > > Occult<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Occult&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+sup
                            ply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=2LTWpPlq4K0kAnvL93pF8A> Beyond
                            > > belief<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                            ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=_eq_mBE_hr6HwYiMUROKBA> Occult
                            > > book<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Occult+book&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occul
                            t+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=R0_JpsSj67zaYfAa1aI3Hg> Occult
                            > > supply<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Occult+supply&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                            ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=SqI2KSoJSVX9A3s3Lvsrbw>
                            > > Beliefs<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Beliefs&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+su
                            pply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=OtCpWzgOC3i0lczPN-HPlA>
                            > > ------------------------------
                            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > - Visit your
                            group "abramelin<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin>"
                            > > on the web.
                            > >
                            > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<abramelin-
                            unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                            > >
                            > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------
                            > >
                            >
                          • Aaron
                            ... This is what I was trying to get at before. You are attempting to mix systems that don t mix well. That is the reason you are having trouble getting
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 11 12:17 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "pathofchrist" <c3u9@...> wrote:

                              > I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths after
                              > coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had previously
                              > called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started skrying
                              > the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not consistent
                              > in following my orders. What would be your input on this?

                              This is what I was trying to get at before. You are attempting to mix
                              systems that don't mix well. That is the reason you are having
                              trouble getting those spirits to work for you. You have not done the
                              Rite that they expect you to have done. You have not summoned the
                              spirits *after* having the HGA put to your head. There is a complete
                              magickal system outlined in the third book of Abramelin, but you are
                              not following it.

                              I do apologize if you find my feedback offensive, but it is the
                              truth. I believe I will let this subject rest now.

                              LVX
                              Aaron
                            • Aaron
                              ... Abramelin. ... these ... wisdom, and ... the manner ... court! ... commence your ... yourself ... supernatural ... you with an ... your heart ...
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 11 12:31 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@...> wrote:

                                > Hey Aaron,
                                >
                                > About your super-celestial HGA...Here's a funny description from
                                Abramelin.
                                >
                                > "Finally, let us conclude that from the divine mystery are derived
                                these
                                > three kinds of Qabalah, *viz.*: the Mixed Qabalah, and the true
                                wisdom, and
                                > the (true) magic. We will, therefore, show forth this last, and
                                the manner
                                > of becoming its possessors in the name of God and of his celestial
                                court!"
                                >
                                > Concerning the convocation of the good spirits
                                >
                                > "Humiliate yourself before God and his celestial court, and
                                commence your
                                > prayer with fervour, for then it is that you will begin to enflame
                                yourself
                                > in praying, and you will see appear an extraordinary and
                                supernatural
                                > splendour which will fill the whole apartment, and will surround
                                you with an
                                > inexpressible odour, and this alone will console you and comfort
                                your heart
                                > so that you shall call forever happy the Day of the Lord."
                                >
                                >
                                > So, I think Abramelin was certainly seeing the Angels as
                                celestial. But then
                                > in English, celestial can both mean relating to heaven/divinity or
                                > sky/visible heavens - literally!

                                I don't see where either quote you have offered indicates that the
                                HGA is celestial as opposed to super-celestial. My point is that
                                the HGA comes from beyond the band of fixed-stars. Which is exactly
                                where God's Divine Court would be...

                                LVX
                                Aaron
                              • pathofchrist
                                Hi Aaron, Thanks. I am not offended and do appreciate on the point feedback. Perhaps my success with the Enochian Aethrys had made me over- confident in
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 11 4:57 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Aaron,
                                  Thanks. I am not offended and do appreciate on the point feedback.
                                  Perhaps my success with the Enochian Aethrys had made me over-
                                  confident in attempting the Abramelin rite and I may have missed
                                  taking it on literally. How much I thought all the Astral travels to
                                  the Aethyrs had subdued my ego, but there it resurged again.
                                  However, I will reattempt the seven-day rite in my physical temple
                                  (instead of astral like last time).
                                  pathofchrist

                                  --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" <Aaron@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "pathofchrist" <c3u9@> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I summoned all the averse forces astrally and got their oaths
                                  after
                                  > > coming across the Abramelin book some weeks ago, as I had
                                  previously
                                  > > called the HGA through my GD ritual before I even started
                                  skrying
                                  > > the Enochian Aethyrs. However, the averse forces are not
                                  consistent
                                  > > in following my orders. What would be your input on this?
                                  >
                                  > This is what I was trying to get at before. You are attempting to
                                  mix
                                  > systems that don't mix well. That is the reason you are having
                                  > trouble getting those spirits to work for you. You have not done
                                  the
                                  > Rite that they expect you to have done. You have not summoned the
                                  > spirits *after* having the HGA put to your head. There is a
                                  complete
                                  > magickal system outlined in the third book of Abramelin, but you
                                  are
                                  > not following it.
                                  >
                                  > I do apologize if you find my feedback offensive, but it is the
                                  > truth. I believe I will let this subject rest now.
                                  >
                                  > LVX
                                  > Aaron
                                  >
                                • pathofchrist
                                  Thanks Aaron. Went through my ritual study material again where the thought of HGA appearing physically had first come to me as I had not revisited it since
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 11 7:05 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks Aaron. Went through my ritual study material again where the
                                    thought of HGA appearing physically had first come to me as I had
                                    not revisited it since working on Enochian. Here is the quote I got:
                                    "Wherefore behold! Into this brazen cauldron I cast this wine, this
                                    bread and salt, and finally this rose, that their essences may be
                                    volatilized by the O which is beneath. Accept now these elements
                                    thus volatized by the O, and from them form a body by me and in me,
                                    that Thou, my Genius, the Spirit of my soul,mayest manifest Thyself
                                    physically unto me, for my assistance in the Great Work."

                                    It makes sense now because I had not noticed the "body by me and in
                                    me" and "physically unto me". I was thinking more like "physically
                                    in front of me". I hope this clears this thread up.

                                    pathofchrist

                                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" <Aaron@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Ah, wonderful! I love to hear someone apply simple physics to
                                    > the "physical manifestation" question. :) As I tell others -
                                    they
                                    > have no bodies to reflect light, and no vocal cords to vibrate air.
                                    >
                                    > LVX
                                    > Aaron
                                    >
                                    > --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Scarlet <lucyfyre@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Think we may need to clarify "physical". Everything physical is
                                    > measurable
                                    > > by weight, motion and resistance i.e. subject to the laws of
                                    > nature. This
                                    > > the HGA is not. However, visable and audible appearance seems to
                                    > be a common
                                    > > through out.
                                    > >
                                    > > Will
                                    > > Love
                                    > > ALWays
                                    > >
                                    > > Scarlet
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On 2/8/06, Nightshademagic dot com <oipteaapdoce@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Physically appear? Oh don't worry about it, not like uniting
                                    > with your
                                    > > > HGA isn't the strongest magical experience already <g>
                                    > > > I think I would see it as trying to fit a mountain into my
                                    tiny
                                    > little
                                    > > > triangle LOL.
                                    > > > Fortunatly with the HGA experience, there really isn't any
                                    doubt
                                    > about it
                                    > > > happening! So I don't think physical is necessary :)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Athena
                                    > > > --
                                    > > > "thou art chewy and taste good broiled on your own magic sword
                                    > and eaten
                                    > > > with a bit of honey-mustard dipping sauce"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > www.nightshademagic.com
                                    > > > www.enochian.org
                                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                    > > > Occult<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    >
                                    t=ms&k=Occult&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+sup
                                    > ply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=2LTWpPlq4K0kAnvL93pF8A> Beyond
                                    > > > belief<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    >
                                    t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                                    > ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=_eq_mBE_hr6HwYiMUROKBA> Occult
                                    > > > book<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    >
                                    t=ms&k=Occult+book&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occul
                                    > t+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=R0_JpsSj67zaYfAa1aI3Hg> Occult
                                    > > > supply<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    >
                                    t=ms&k=Occult+supply&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occ
                                    > ult+supply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=SqI2KSoJSVX9A3s3Lvsrbw>
                                    > > > Beliefs<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    >
                                    t=ms&k=Beliefs&w1=Occult&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Occult+book&w4=Occult+su
                                    > pply&w5=Beliefs&c=5&s=80&.sig=OtCpWzgOC3i0lczPN-HPlA>
                                    > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > - Visit your
                                    > group "abramelin<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abramelin>"
                                    > > > on the web.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > abramelin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<abramelin-
                                    > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                    of
                                    > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.