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Re: Oratory

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  • AaronL
    ... Ah - that s a very good question. The terrace definitely applies to the apartment version. However, you might still want to bring in the river sand even
    Message 1 of 7 , May 1 12:59 AM
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      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Aaron,
      >
      > When I read the flow of the description, it seems that he gives a layout plan for the woods. Then he gives the design for an apartment, which includes a terrace/patio. My question is if the former layout is complete OR if the sand covered patio applies to the former design.
      >

      Ah - that's a very good question. The terrace definitely applies to the apartment version. However, you might still want to bring in the river sand even if you use the outside "tabernacle" version.

      > Second
      > Dehn- The prayer room should have two windows--one facing the rising sun, the other facing the setting sun, next to a door or an opening, through which the demons can be seen--demons that cannot, or shouldn't appear in the prayer room.
      >
      > From my understanding of Dehn, a window in the east, and one in the west 'next to a door/opening' so you can see the demons. I assume this door in the WEST leads to the patio. That is why I asked for verification about the 'midnight hour'. This statement implies WEST, while Mathers said north, which I think the door & window should be near the northwest corner.
      >

      Don't forget that Mathers was not working from the German edition. He was wroking from a French recension of the text. In the French version, the doorway to the terrace is stated to be in the North. In the German, the implication is that it is toward the West. Of course, for the outside "tabernacle" version you would have a 360 degree view all around you - making doorways and windows and which direction they face a moot point.

      Where it comes to the door leading to the terrace, most folks just go with what they have.

      > BUT...Mathers says in another place, 'Now place yourself beside the Altar looking towards the Door and the open Terrace; or if you be in the Country place yourself at the Western side, and commence by summoning the Chief Spirits and Princes.
      >
      > Dehn says 'Move around the altar so that you face the arbor. If you are in the wilderness...face the sunset (WEST). Start to call the four spirit kings.'
      >
      > This makes it clear that you are facing west, not north.

      If you are using the outside tabernacle version ("in the country" or "in the wilderness"), then you face west. If you're in a situation where you have no outside terrace (for instance, you've set up an Oratory in the eastern half of a room that has no terrace), then you would still face west to call the spirits.

      Otherwise you have little choice but to face the doorway that leads to the terrace - wherever that happens to be.

      > To simply my confusion:
      > 1) are we on the west side of the altar, facing east when we pray and call our angel?

      Yep.

      > 2) when we summon the evil spirits, do we face west (n or nw)?

      You face the terrace, regardless of direction. If you are using an outside tabernacle or otherwise do not have an attached terrace, you face west.

      > Though this seems to fit the Western Mystery Traditions, such as found in the GD, the directions are opposite of the Tabernacle, which Abraham relates the Oratory to.
      >
      > If not mistaken, the Tabernacle has one entrance in the east, that leads to the far western side of the Tabernacle, to the Holy of Holies where the Kavod could be found resting upon the Ark.
      >

      Abramelin follows the Western Mystery Tradition, which (generally) faces the rising sun when invoking God or Angels. Especially when performing solar invocations. As to why the ancient Hebrews decided to put their entrance in the East and Holy of Holies in the West, I can't say. It is likely a differnce between ancient Judaic and later Christian influences.

      > My question is why is it in the opposite direction. It would seem more consistent with the Tabernacle to have an entrance in the east, altar to the west and, THEN, a patio to the north to speak with the demons.
      >

      There are thousands of years separating Moses' Tabernacle and Abramelin's Oratory. :)

      LVX
      Aaron
    • Adam Sod
      MessageThanks Aaron,   I have another question about the hermit wooded model. Let us ignore my previous question about the patio and dwell on the
      Message 2 of 7 , May 1 2:59 PM
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        Message
        Thanks Aaron,
         
        I have another question about the hermit wooded model. Let us ignore my previous question about the patio and dwell on the flowers/shrubs. Do you think the shrubs should form a fence around the hut or a garden around it with a narrow passage allowing you to approach it? (My view of the Oratory is a mixture of the Garden of Eden, the Tabernacle, a Succah and a wedding Chuppah.)
         
        If it is merely a fence, when the evil spirits arrive, do they stay 'outside' the fence or inside the fence, but keeping their distance from the hut? Since it mentions that the shrubs are used to cut the space into two sections like the Tabernacle, that would lead me to believe that the MUST appear outside of the area. But if the shrubs are tall, and they must appear outside the area, then how can you see them in all directions?
         
        I know this might sound trivial, but it lets me know if the shrubs should be tall (6' or taller) or very short AND where to place the terrace & sand box.
         
        (The reason I thought the terrace should apply is that there is no mention of sand by the hermit model, which would leave no place for them to write in. So, I assumed that there has to be a specific area (with sand) that they needed to be directed to.)
         
        If the are not allowed inside the 7' area around the altar, even if the shrubs were really short, it would be very hard to read what they scribe in the dirt/sand, unless you are able to walk to the edge of the shrubs. Regardless, it is obvious that you must get very close to them, if only the one incident where they touch the tip of your wand.
         
        Thanks again. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I continue studying the book. As for now, I'm going to start back with the archives.
         
        Another quick question: would it be kosher to allow someone else who has been successful with the Abramelin ritual to enter and use your Oratory?
         
        AdamSod72


        --- On Sun, 5/1/11, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:

        From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
        Subject: [abramelin] Re: Oratory
        To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 2:59 AM

         

        --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Aaron,
        >
        > When I read the flow of the description, it seems that he gives a layout plan for the woods. Then he gives the design for an apartment, which includes a terrace/patio. My question is if the former layout is complete OR if the sand covered patio applies to the former design.
        >

        Ah - that's a very good question. The terrace definitely applies to the apartment version. However, you might still want to bring in the river sand even if you use the outside "tabernacle" version.

        > Second
        > Dehn- The prayer room should have two windows--one facing the rising sun, the other facing the setting sun, next to a door or an opening, through which the demons can be seen--demons that cannot, or shouldn't appear in the prayer room.
        >
        > From my understanding of Dehn, a window in the east, and one in the west 'next to a door/opening' so you can see the demons. I assume this door in the WEST leads to the patio. That is why I asked for verification about the 'midnight hour'. This statement implies WEST, while Mathers said north, which I think the door & window should be near the northwest corner.
        >

        Don't forget that Mathers was not working from the German edition. He was wroking from a French recension of the text. In the French version, the doorway to the terrace is stated to be in the North. In the German, the implication is that it is toward the West. Of course, for the outside "tabernacle" version you would have a 360 degree view all around you - making doorways and windows and which direction they face a moot point.

        Where it comes to the door leading to the terrace, most folks just go with what they have.

        > BUT...Mathers says in another place, 'Now place yourself beside the Altar looking towards the Door and the open Terrace; or if you be in the Country place yourself at the Western side, and commence by summoning the Chief Spirits and Princes.
        >
        > Dehn says 'Move around the altar so that you face the arbor. If you are in the wilderness...face the sunset (WEST). Start to call the four spirit kings.'
        >
        > This makes it clear that you are facing west, not north.

        If you are using the outside tabernacle version ("in the country" or "in the wilderness"), then you face west. If you're in a situation where you have no outside terrace (for instance, you've set up an Oratory in the eastern half of a room that has no terrace), then you would still face west to call the spirits.

        Otherwise you have little choice but to face the doorway that leads to the terrace - wherever that happens to be.

        > To simply my confusion:
        > 1) are we on the west side of the altar, facing east when we pray and call our angel?

        Yep.

        > 2) when we summon the evil spirits, do we face west (n or nw)?

        You face the terrace, regardless of direction. If you are using an outside tabernacle or otherwise do not have an attached terrace, you face west.

        > Though this seems to fit the Western Mystery Traditions, such as found in the GD, the directions are opposite of the Tabernacle, which Abraham relates the Oratory to.
        >
        > If not mistaken, the Tabernacle has one entrance in the east, that leads to the far western side of the Tabernacle, to the Holy of Holies where the Kavod could be found resting upon the Ark.
        >

        Abramelin follows the Western Mystery Tradition, which (generally) faces the rising sun when invoking God or Angels. Especially when performing solar invocations. As to why the ancient Hebrews decided to put their entrance in the East and Holy of Holies in the West, I can't say. It is likely a differnce between ancient Judaic and later Christian influences.

        > My question is why is it in the opposite direction. It would seem more consistent with the Tabernacle to have an entrance in the east, altar to the west and, THEN, a patio to the north to speak with the demons.
        >

        There are thousands of years separating Moses' Tabernacle and Abramelin's Oratory. :)

        LVX
        Aaron

      • Athena
        I d say nice 7 foot tall shrubs if you don t already have a privacy fence, just to make sure folks can t see you, or more importantly so you never do have to
        Message 3 of 7 , May 1 3:08 PM
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          I'd say nice 7 foot tall shrubs if you don't already have a privacy fence, just to make sure folks can't see you, or more importantly so you never do have to worry about being seen ;).

          I personally would not recommend letting another person into the oratory, even if they have completed the working already.  Before you start the operation, to help you setup (if they have already completed the working themselves), but not after you start.  Even those who have completed it do not stay in that state 24x7 forever more, so you do not want *anyone* else around.

          Athena
          --
          www.enochian.org

          On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
           

          Thanks Aaron,
           
          I have another question about the hermit wooded model. Let us ignore my previous question about the patio and dwell on the flowers/shrubs. Do you think the shrubs should form a fence around the hut or a garden around it with a narrow passage allowing you to approach it? (My view of the Oratory is a mixture of the Garden of Eden, the Tabernacle, a Succah and a wedding Chuppah.)
           
          If it is merely a fence, when the evil spirits arrive, do they stay 'outside' the fence or inside the fence, but keeping their distance from the hut? Since it mentions that the shrubs are used to cut the space into two sections like the Tabernacle, that would lead me to believe that the MUST appear outside of the area. But if the shrubs are tall, and they must appear outside the area, then how can you see them in all directions?
           
          I know this might sound trivial, but it lets me know if the shrubs should be tall (6' or taller) or very short AND where to place the terrace & sand box.
           
          (The reason I thought the terrace should apply is that there is no mention of sand by the hermit model, which would leave no place for them to write in. So, I assumed that there has to be a specific area (with sand) that they needed to be directed to.)
           
          If the are not allowed inside the 7' area around the altar, even if the shrubs were really short, it would be very hard to read what they scribe in the dirt/sand, unless you are able to walk to the edge of the shrubs. Regardless, it is obvious that you must get very close to them, if only the one incident where they touch the tip of your wand.
           
          Thanks again. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I continue studying the book. As for now, I'm going to start back with the archives.
           
          Another quick question: would it be kosher to allow someone else who has been successful with the Abramelin ritual to enter and use your Oratory?
           
          AdamSod72


          --- On Sun, 5/1/11, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:

          From: AaronL <kheph777@...>
          Subject: [abramelin] Re: Oratory
          To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 2:59 AM


           

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Aaron,
          >
          > When I read the flow of the description, it seems that he gives a layout plan for the woods. Then he gives the design for an apartment, which includes a terrace/patio. My question is if the former layout is complete OR if the sand covered patio applies to the former design.
          >

          Ah - that's a very good question. The terrace definitely applies to the apartment version. However, you might still want to bring in the river sand even if you use the outside "tabernacle" version.

          > Second
          > Dehn- The prayer room should have two windows--one facing the rising sun, the other facing the setting sun, next to a door or an opening, through which the demons can be seen--demons that cannot, or shouldn't appear in the prayer room.
          >
          > From my understanding of Dehn, a window in the east, and one in the west 'next to a door/opening' so you can see the demons. I assume this door in the WEST leads to the patio. That is why I asked for verification about the 'midnight hour'. This statement implies WEST, while Mathers said north, which I think the door & window should be near the northwest corner.
          >

          Don't forget that Mathers was not working from the German edition. He was wroking from a French recension of the text. In the French version, the doorway to the terrace is stated to be in the North. In the German, the implication is that it is toward the West. Of course, for the outside "tabernacle" version you would have a 360 degree view all around you - making doorways and windows and which direction they face a moot point.

          Where it comes to the door leading to the terrace, most folks just go with what they have.

          > BUT...Mathers says in another place, 'Now place yourself beside the Altar looking towards the Door and the open Terrace; or if you be in the Country place yourself at the Western side, and commence by summoning the Chief Spirits and Princes.
          >
          > Dehn says 'Move around the altar so that you face the arbor. If you are in the wilderness...face the sunset (WEST). Start to call the four spirit kings.'
          >
          > This makes it clear that you are facing west, not north.

          If you are using the outside tabernacle version ("in the country" or "in the wilderness"), then you face west. If you're in a situation where you have no outside terrace (for instance, you've set up an Oratory in the eastern half of a room that has no terrace), then you would still face west to call the spirits.

          Otherwise you have little choice but to face the doorway that leads to the terrace - wherever that happens to be.

          > To simply my confusion:
          > 1) are we on the west side of the altar, facing east when we pray and call our angel?

          Yep.

          > 2) when we summon the evil spirits, do we face west (n or nw)?

          You face the terrace, regardless of direction. If you are using an outside tabernacle or otherwise do not have an attached terrace, you face west.

          > Though this seems to fit the Western Mystery Traditions, such as found in the GD, the directions are opposite of the Tabernacle, which Abraham relates the Oratory to.
          >
          > If not mistaken, the Tabernacle has one entrance in the east, that leads to the far western side of the Tabernacle, to the Holy of Holies where the Kavod could be found resting upon the Ark.
          >

          Abramelin follows the Western Mystery Tradition, which (generally) faces the rising sun when invoking God or Angels. Especially when performing solar invocations. As to why the ancient Hebrews decided to put their entrance in the East and Holy of Holies in the West, I can't say. It is likely a differnce between ancient Judaic and later Christian influences.

          > My question is why is it in the opposite direction. It would seem more consistent with the Tabernacle to have an entrance in the east, altar to the west and, THEN, a patio to the north to speak with the demons.
          >

          There are thousands of years separating Moses' Tabernacle and Abramelin's Oratory. :)

          LVX
          Aaron




          --

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          Odo cicle qaa
          --
          www.enochian.org

          "The exalted and powerful spirits serve only their confidants and intimate friends"



        • AaronL
          ... I dont have the Dehn version at hand right now. However, going from the French version, it seems one is instructed to erect a fairly small hut/shelter
          Message 4 of 7 , May 2 12:13 AM
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            --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sod <adamsod72@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks Aaron,
            >  
            > I have another question about the hermit wooded
            > model. Let us ignore my previous question about the patio and dwell on the
            > flowers/shrubs. Do you think the shrubs should form a fence around the hut or a
            > garden around it with a narrow passage allowing you to approach it?

            I dont have the Dehn version at hand right now. However, going from the French version, it seems one is instructed to erect a fairly small hut/shelter over the altar to protect it from the elements. Then you plant shrubs around that in a seven-foot diameter circle (or 14 feet across) - representing the walls of the Oratory itself. (So they could be rather high if you want complete seclusion inside - but I doubt that is called for.)

            The part about "dividing the entrance" (or entrance pathway) in two is a little obscure. However, what I'm seeing is the large circle of shrubs not connecting in the west - leaving you an entrance. (Hence, it is actually the wall of shrubs that is divided in the West to leave a doorway.) It is also there that you would stand to convoke the spirits - who would only appear outside the wall of shrubs.

            I think the river sand is not needed in this version, unless the spot you pick doesn't have any natural sand or dirt already. Then I'd bring it in, as I posted earlier - putting it toward the western entrance of the Oratory.

            > If it is merely a fence, when the evil spirits
            > arrive, do they stay 'outside' the fence or inside the fence, but keeping their
            > distance from the hut?

            Outside it. Inside the shrub fence is technically inside the Oratory, where they cannot go.

            > Since it mentions that the shrubs are used to cut the
            > space into two sections like the Tabernacle, that would lead me to believe that
            > the MUST appear outside of the area.

            I think the only thing being divided is the Oratory from the rest of the wilderness around it. The little hut is the Holy of Holies, the rest of the area inside the shrubs is the main Temple area, then you have everything else outside.

            > But if the shrubs are tall, and they must
            > appear outside the area, then how can you see them in all
            > directions?

            If I'm right, you'll have a space in the west where the shrubs don't meet.

            > I know this might sound trivial, but it lets me
            > know if the shrubs should be tall (6' or taller) or very short AND where to
            > place the terrace & sand box.

            I mentioned this above. I'm not sure it's necessary for them to be tall, as long as you are in a safe secluded area. If not, make them tall for privacy.

            > (The reason I thought the terrace should apply is
            > that there is no mention of sand by the hermit model, which would leave no place
            > for them to write in.

            Theoretically there should already be sand there. I think the river sand is brought into the apartment version because it otherwise lacks the natural setting.

            > So, I assumed that there has to be a specific area (with
            > sand) that they needed to be directed to.)

            It is probaly not very necessary for the Convocation itself. (They didn't write anything in the sand for me...) However, later on, you can use the sand to speak to the spirits via Geomancy.

            > Another quick question: would it be kosher to allow
            > someone else who has been successful with the Abramelin ritual to enter and use
            > your Oratory?

            No. I have had people sit in with me - though they sat outside the confines of the Oratory itself. I stood inside with the curtains open. No one, but absolutely no one, uses my Abramelin altar or Oratory.

            LVX
            Aaron
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