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Seeking tech collaboration for notation project

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  • pjn@philnice.dk
    I ve been using ABC (platform mostly ABCEdit) for about 10 years and am pretty proficient with it. I m not a programmer but a teacher whose ideas are mostly
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 23

      I've been using ABC (platform mostly ABCEdit) for about 10 years and am pretty proficient with it. I'm not a programmer but a teacher whose ideas are mostly pencil on paper and I'm looking for help with the tech side of things either within ABC or as an offshoot inspired by it.

      As a teacher, I have developed a method that revolves around the meeting of a) absolute and b) relative notation. Whilst a) is the standard music notation we know and love, b) is moveable-do symbol systems like sol-fa/solfege and numbered notation (e.g. Rousseau and JianPu). Numbered notation has great teaching potential, but the established systems are simply not good enough. Therefore, I've developed my own. It has rhythm symbols like standard notation, but no stave or note heads. These are replaced by numerals. It is always used monophonically, but has a system of chord notation with some traits borrowed from earlier systems like harmonic analysis and basso continuo. It allows beginners to work in "top line and chords" and learn harmonic theory from the word go.

      At the moment, I write my numerical notation system on paper (and teach my students to do the same). If I want it included in an ABC score, I use the chord/annotation function ("x" or "_x") next to every note, which does get a bit laborious and confuses the code no end, so I'm looking for help with one or both of these projects:


      1. A modification of an ABCEdit  (or other platform) so I can hit a button "Numerical Notation" and get the numerals posted up automatically from the given key. Same basic principle as accordion fingering etc., but how do I do it? Any help greatly appreciated.

      2. A simple program to write and layout numerical notation in pretty much the same way as ABC works via postscript, i.e. the same type of code to produce a graphic file with all the trappings of a standard score, but minus the stave and with the note heads replaced by numerals in a straight, horizontal line. Anyone interested in developing this with me, chiefly on the programming side, but with any relevant input will share equally in what ever comes out of it, whether it's commercial gain, accolades or just the warm, nerdy feeling of doing something cool.

      If anyone's interested, I can link to various articles and samples by request.

      Phil

         

    • Jean-Francois Moine
      On 23 Oct 2017 09:10:22 +0000 ... [snip] Hi Phil, After working on the Braille music notation and looking at alternate music notations
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 23
        On 23 Oct 2017 09:10:22 +0000
        "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        > As a teacher, I have developed a method that revolves around the meeting of a) absolute and b) relative notation. Whilst a) is the standard music notation we know and love, b) is moveable-do symbol systems like sol-fa/solfege and numbered notation (e.g. Rousseau and JianPu). Numbered notation has great teaching potential, but the established systems are simply not good enough. Therefore, I've developed my own. It has rhythm symbols like standard notation, but no stave or note heads. These are replaced by numerals. It is always used monophonically, but has a system of chord notation with some traits borrowed from earlier systems like harmonic analysis and basso continuo. It allows beginners to work in "top line and chords" and learn harmonic theory from the word go.
        >
        > At the moment, I write my numerical notation system on paper (and teach my students to do the same). If I want it included in an ABC score, I use the chord/annotation function ("x" or "_x") next to every note, which does get a bit laborious and confuses the code no end, so I'm looking for help with one or both of these projects:
        [snip]

        Hi Phil,

        After working on the Braille music notation and looking at alternate
        music notations (http://musicnotation.org/), I think that your method
        could be easily implemented in abc2svg by front-end/back-end modules.
        May we have more information about your system?

        --
        Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
        Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
      • Steve Langford
        I like pjn@philnice.dk [abcusers] s ongoing project and wish that I could devote some time to helping to develop it. All I have time to do, though, is to
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 23


          I like "pjn@... [abcusers]" 's ongoing project and wish that I could devote some time to helping to develop it.

          All I have time to do, though, is to suggest that the final product should also include options for text underlay.

          Thanks! :-) -Steve-

          - - - - -

          On 23 Oct 2017 09:10:22 +0000
          "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          > As a teacher, I have developed a method that revolves
          around the meeting of a) absolute and b) relative notation. Whilst a) is the standard music notation we know and love, b) is moveable-do symbol systems like sol-fa/solfege and numbered notation (e.g. Rousseau and JianPu). Numbered notation has great teaching potential, but the established systems are simply not good enough. Therefore, I've developed my own. It has rhythm symbols like standard notation, but no stave or note heads. These are replaced by numerals. It is always used monophonically, but has a system of chord notation with some traits borrowed from earlier systems like harmonic analysis and basso continuo. It allows beginners to work in "top line and chords" and learn harmonic theory from the word go.
          >
          > At the moment, I write my numerical notation system on
          paper (and teach my students to do the same). If I want it included in an ABC score, I use the chord/annotation function ("x" or "_x") next to every note, which does get a bit laborious and confuses the code no end, so I'm looking for help with one or both of these projects:
          [snip]

          Hi Phil,

          After working on the Braille music notation and looking at alternate
          music notations (http://musicnotation.org/), I think that your method
          could be easily implemented in abc2svg by front-end/back-end modules.
          May we have more information about your system?

          --
          Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
          Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/


          Posted by: Jean-Francois Moine <moinejf@...>
        • pjn@philnice.dk
          Hej Jean-Francois. Sounds exciting! I ve posted three handwritten examples which include pretty much all the requirements of the notation system. I apologise
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 23
          Hej Jean-Francois.

          Sounds exciting! I've posted three handwritten examples which include pretty much all the requirements of the notation system. I apologise for my horrible writing and hope they're readable. Here's some notes to walk you through them:

          The symbols are integers 1 to 7, representing the scale degrees do (1), re (2), mi (3), fa (4), sol (5), la (6), ti (7) in a movable-do system. In other words, the notation is diatonic relative, meaning that one notation covers all 12 keys and the root of whatever absolute key we choose to play in = 1. Chromatic accidentals come before integer symbols where applicable. Octave crossover uses Rousseau method, but with comma (,) and apostrophe (') instead of dots over/under. Thus, moving from 7 upwards is 7 1' 2 3 (where steps after the apostrophe default to the present octave), whilst moving down from 1 is 1 7, 6 5 4. 

          Rhythm notation is like percussion notation, following a straight line. 1/4, 1/8 notes and smaller are just tails without heads, whilst 1/2 notes and larger have open heads (I envisage square or triangle shaped to distinguish from standard notation). Rests and ties are as in standard notation.

          Chord symbols are scale degree integers in a circle or bubble, denoting the bass root. Accidentals (#, b, natural) are required inside the bubble for chords on chromatic roots. Chord modifiers work a little like basso continuo, as integers stacked over the root bubble (with or without accidentals). Unlike basso continuo (or absolute chord notation), these do not relate to the chord root, but the diatonic key root. I envisage a capacity for stacking maximum two integers over a bubble.

          For structurally modulating tunes, "modulation signatures" are required, i.e. a relative change of key signature.The syntax for these changes is a number of #s or bs (in square brackets or a rectangle) using circle of fifths terminology. In Penny Lane, for example, the chorus changes two flats [bb] from the start key, i.e. two fifths down (= major 2nd down/minor 7th up).

          Some thoughts about coding. It is conceivable that ordinary ABC coding could be used in an absolute key and translated to relative numeral notation afterwards. This would save numerous syntax problems with replacing letters with integers and integers (as applied in ABC for rhythm) with other symbols. Aside from this, I see the chord notation as the biggest upheaval, requiring some dimensions that ABC doesn't presently have. The existing syntax [xyz] creates specific chords and i envisage something along the lines of "[1]b7" as a tonic (1) chord with a dominant 7th, or "[5]61" as a dominant (5) chord voiced as an 11th.

          I hope this is comprehensive enough. Feel free to ask any questions.

          Phil           
        • Hudson Flavio Meneses Lacerda
          Hi, Phil. Coincidentally I am also working to set up an approach for music learning. I am starting from both fixed do and moveable do . Here in Brazil,
          Message 5 of 29 , Oct 23
            Hi, Phil.

            Coincidentally I am also working to set up an approach for music
            learning. I am starting from both "fixed do" and "moveable do". Here in
            Brazil, do-re-mi are the names of the pitches, not pitch relations,
            therefore "moveable do" is not always welcome, as "confusing" -- I am
            considering to take that potential "confusion" as a pretext for the
            study of pitch relations at every/any pitch level.

            I have used numbers for scale degrees, but I think it is a limited
            approach: when using numbers 1 to 7 in diatonic scales, there is no way
            to indicate chromatic alterations while singing; using 0 to 11 can
            manage the conventional 12-tone scale, but, then, the steps of diatonic
            scales are not evident (major scale = 0,2,4,5,7,9,11,0). Then, numbering
            pentatonic and hexatonic scale degrees may be confusing, because they
            may be confused with subsets of an heptatonic scale. I am curious to
            know whether/how you address those issues using numbers.

            I am interested in separating musical training of notation training.
            Also, I would like to be independent of any instruments, except the body
            and the memory (imagining a piano keyboard may be a very useful part of
            the training, but it should not be the essence of the training).

            You can set up your notation using abcm2ps and/or abc2svg:

            http://moinejf.free.fr/abcm2ps-doc/map.xhtml
            http://moinejf.free.fr/abcm2ps-doc/stafflines.xhtml
            http://moinejf.free.fr/abcm2ps-doc/beginps.xhtml
            http://moinejf.free.fr/abcm2ps-doc/beginsvg.xhtml

            http://moinejf.free.fr/abcm2ps-doc


            Cheers,
            Hudson



            pjn@... [abcusers] wrote:
            > I've been using ABC (platform mostly ABCEdit) for about 10 years and
            > am pretty proficient with it. I'm not a programmer but a teacher
            > whose ideas are mostly pencil on paper and I'm looking for help with
            > the tech side of things either within ABC or as an offshoot inspired
            > by it.
            >
            > As a teacher, I have developed a method that revolves around the
            > meeting of a) absolute and b) relative notation. Whilst a) is the
            > standard music notation we know and love, b) is moveable-do symbol
            > systems like sol-fa/solfege and numbered notation (e.g. Rousseau and
            > JianPu). Numbered notation has great teaching potential, but the
            > established systems are simply not good enough. Therefore, I've
            > developed my own. It has rhythm symbols like standard notation, but
            > no stave or note heads. These are replaced by numerals. It is always
            > used monophonically, but has a system of chord notation with some
            > traits borrowed from earlier systems like harmonic analysis and basso
            > continuo. It allows beginners to work in "top line and chords" and
            > learn harmonic theory from the word go.
            >
            > At the moment, I write my numerical notation system on paper (and
            > teach my students to do the same). If I want it included in an ABC
            > score, I use the chord/annotation function ("x" or "_x") next to
            > every note, which does get a bit laborious and confuses the code no
            > end, so I'm looking for help with one or both of these projects:
            >
            >
            > 1. A modification of an ABCEdit (or other platform) so I can hit a
            > button "Numerical Notation" and get the numerals posted up
            > automatically from the given key. Same basic principle as accordion
            > fingering etc., but how do I do it? Any help greatly appreciated.
            >
            > 2. A simple program to write and layout numerical notation in pretty
            > much the same way as ABC works via postscript, i.e. the same type of
            > code to produce a graphic file with all the trappings of a standard
            > score, but minus the stave and with the note heads replaced by
            > numerals in a straight, horizontal line. Anyone interested in
            > developing this with me, chiefly on the programming side, but with
            > any relevant input will share equally in what ever comes out of it,
            > whether it's commercial gain, accolades or just the warm, nerdy
            > feeling of doing something cool.
            >
            > If anyone's interested, I can link to various articles and samples by
            > request.
            >
            > Phil
            >
            >


            --
            Hudson Lacerda - https://www.hudsonlacerda.com
            --

            - Venha para a Diaspora* - uma rede social livre e descentralizada
            https://diasporafoundation.org
            https://diasporabr.com.br

            - Como vendemos nossas almas --e mais-- aos gigantes da internet
            https://amusicadehudsonlacerda.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/como-vendemos-nossas-almas-e-mais-aos-gigantes-da-internet-bruce-schneier/



            «O golpe é contra o povo e contra a Nação. O golpe é misógino. O golpe é
            homofóbico. O golpe é racista. É a imposição da cultura da intolerância,
            do preconceito, da violência.» (Dilma Rousseff)

            «The empowerment of the nation's most corrupt politicians was a key
            feature, not a bug, of Dilma's impeachment.» (Glenn Greenwald)
          • pjn@philnice.dk
            Oh, yes, and a lyric function, just like the present one in ABC would be nice to have in the system. Phil
            Message 6 of 29 , Oct 24
              Oh, yes, and a lyric function, just like the present one in ABC would be nice to have in the system.

              Phil
            • pjn@philnice.dk
              Hudson, Thanks for those links. I m going to play around with that. I m presently working on a series of short articles about the role writing and theory plays
              Message 7 of 29 , Oct 24
                Hudson,

                Thanks for those links. I'm going to play around with that. I'm presently working on a series of short articles about the role writing and theory plays in music education, which i'm putting out here:


                The first three are musings about the state of musical education, the role of writing, the disservice that standard notation can do to music etc.and something about my general approach, which I call "Musical Empowerment." The last two articles talk directly about numerical notation and a couple more are on the way, describing the tricky problems of relative harmony notation and then my own modified system (which I've yet to give a name).  
                 
                Sorry, this is rather long, but I think you raise some really good questions that I grapple with daily. Exciting to hear that I'm not alone in my passion for relative notation, or indeed, for new approaches to music education. I live in Denmark, where real criticism of existing systems is hampered by constant superficial (but progressive sounding) criticism from within the system. I feel that confusion generally is a huge problem in music education, and it often goes uncorrected. My students understand moveable-do instinctively, but many assume that symbols are automatically fixed-do in a notation system, probably because the only notation system they know has entrenched this idea. 

                I felt, with my approach, that the diatonic scale, being the natural and psychological phenomenon it is, should be the basis of the notation, because the "singing voice" (inside the mind, if not outside) will always reference back to it. The 12-tone scale is a technical construct, and a wonderful one at that, but it is artificial to the human psyche. From this human perspective, it's really 12 diatonic scales and interesting things that happen when they intertwine (chromaticism).

                In the notation, I'm using accidentals against the numbers (like #4 or b3) to indicate chromaticism, but I see the problem when singing. Perhaps it doesn't need addressing in the detail, but more as a "bird's eye view" via theory. What I mean by that is it's OK to sing "7" when b7 is meant, as long as there's awareness about chromaticism as a phenomenon, that the tonal staircase changes with phenomena like "mixolydian" or "dorian." So, when singing the closing of Hey Jude, for example

                ||: 1- 3 5 | 2'121--| 2121- | b7,65--- :||

                it will be noticeable that the seventh flattens, as if the whole thing from now on has taken a new "modal signature" of 1 flat (mixolydian).

                I don't think there's any getting around the limitation of moveable-do, because the diatonic scale (like the musical ear it's connected to) is natural but limited. Theory (and the notation it's connected to) lifts us out of the limits via 12 diatonic positions and their relations. From instinctive simplicity to mind boggling complexity in one move. So the essence of my approach is to bind theory back to the musical ear by teaching the use of this simple tool to navigate complexity. Music education has too often rejected the ear, favouring technical approaches that address the 12-tone octave, as though this had replaced the diatonic scale. Then, ironically, at later stages, the ear is needed again (in ear training), but a technical habit has been instilled that is hard to break. They've learnt to read standard notation without accessing the ear, when it is the ear that "empowers."         
                I think it's tempting to see the keyboard as a template for music, but I think this might be a blind spot, created by the connection between standard notation and the keyboard and general exposure to this "view" of music. Many of my beginners (I teach piano) are horribly confused by the keyboard and the way it makes different keys look different. When their eyes seem to hamper their ear, I encourage them to imagine (or actually look at a drawing of) a tonal staircase instead, then just use the keyboard to "test their guesses."

                I think if there's one idea that pervades all worthwhile thinking about the problems of music education, it's that everything has two or more perspectives and that reducing any question to a single one for simplicity's sake has ruined a lot of potential. Fixed/absolute and moveable/relative aren't alternatives, but supplements. Therefore, a notation system for each, two perspectives on the same question, is better than only one. So I'd say, don't try to solve the limitations of the moveable system at all, but cherish its organic simplicity and the way complexity grows out of it.When its limitations hamper understanding, that's when we need the other perspective of fixed and complex.  

                Phil

              • John Chambers
                I d also be interested in this topic. I ve transcribed a number of Asian tunes from 简谱 (jianpu) notation, which I can read, and I ve been in contact with
                Message 8 of 29 , Oct 24
                  I'd also be interested in this topic.  I've transcribed a number of Asian tunes  from 简谱 (jianpu) notation, which I can read, and I've been in contact with a number of people who use it as their preferred notation.  If we had an abc2jianpu converter, I'd add it to my online stuff, and the use of abc in Asia might be expanded.  The idea of a "linearized" form of jianpu, along the lines of what abc does, could also be generally useful.  Anyway, I'd predict a lot of interest in all these ideas if the software can be made to work. Let us all know when you have something you'd like tested.

                  On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:57 PM, pjn@... [abcusers] <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   
                  [Attachment(s) from pjn@... [abcusers] included below]

                  Hej Jean-Francois.


                  Sounds exciting! I've posted three handwritten examples which include pretty much all the requirements of the notation system. I apologise for my horrible writing and hope they're readable. Here's some notes to walk you through them:

                  The symbols are integers 1 to 7, representing the scale degrees do (1), re (2), mi (3), fa (4), sol (5), la (6), ti (7) in a movable-do system. In other words, the notation is diatonic relative, meaning that one notation covers all 12 keys and the root of whatever absolute key we choose to play in = 1. Chromatic accidentals come before integer symbols where applicable. Octave crossover uses Rousseau method, but with comma (,) and apostrophe (') instead of dots over/under. Thus, moving from 7 upwards is 7 1' 2 3 (where steps after the apostrophe default to the present octave), whilst moving down from 1 is 1 7, 6 5 4. 

                  Rhythm notation is like percussion notation, following a straight line. 1/4, 1/8 notes and smaller are just tails without heads, whilst 1/2 notes and larger have open heads (I envisage square or triangle shaped to distinguish from standard notation). Rests and ties are as in standard notation.

                  Chord symbols are scale degree integers in a circle or bubble, denoting the bass root. Accidentals (#, b, natural) are required inside the bubble for chords on chromatic roots. Chord modifiers work a little like basso continuo, as integers stacked over the root bubble (with or without accidentals). Unlike basso continuo (or absolute chord notation), these do not relate to the chord root, but the diatonic key root. I envisage a capacity for stacking maximum two integers over a bubble.

                  For structurally modulating tunes, "modulation signatures" are required, i.e. a relative change of key signature.The syntax for these changes is a number of #s or bs (in square brackets or a rectangle) using circle of fifths terminology. In Penny Lane, for example, the chorus changes two flats [bb] from the start key, i.e. two fifths down (= major 2nd down/minor 7th up).

                  Some thoughts about coding. It is conceivable that ordinary ABC coding could be used in an absolute key and translated to relative numeral notation afterwards. This would save numerous syntax problems with replacing letters with integers and integers (as applied in ABC for rhythm) with other symbols. Aside from this, I see the chord notation as the biggest upheaval, requiring some dimensions that ABC doesn't presently have. The existing syntax [xyz] creates specific chords and i envisage something along the lines of "[1]b7" as a tonic (1) chord with a dominant 7th, or "[5]61" as a dominant (5) chord voiced as an 11th.

                  I hope this is comprehensive enough. Feel free to ask any questions.

                  Phil           


                • Jean-Francois Moine
                  On 23 Oct 2017 21:57:21 +0000 ... Hi Phil, Here is a first step towards your system. You may test it using my editor (http://moinejf.free.fr/js/edit-1.xhtml)
                  Message 9 of 29 , Oct 24
                    On 23 Oct 2017 21:57:21 +0000
                    "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    > Some thoughts about coding. It is conceivable that ordinary ABC coding could be used in an absolute key and translated to relative numeral notation afterwards. This would save numerous syntax problems with replacing letters with integers and integers (as applied in ABC for rhythm) with other symbols. Aside from this, I see the chord notation as the biggest upheaval, requiring some dimensions that ABC doesn't presently have. The existing syntax [xyz] creates specific chords and i envisage something along the lines of "[1]b7" as a tonic (1) chord with a dominant 7th, or "[5]61" as a dominant (5) chord voiced as an 11th.

                    Hi Phil,

                    Here is a first step towards your system. You may test it using my editor
                    (http://moinejf.free.fr/js/edit-1.xhtml) and putting the ABC tune below
                    inside the textarea (there is a bug at the end of the 2nd line which
                    will be fixed in the next release of abc2svg).

                    Indeed, this quick implementation has some lacks: no octave indication,
                    no chord... The definition of the glyphs and maps is heavy enough
                    (it is not complete in the example).
                    Also, the ABC code asks for some tuning: there must be a quote after
                    the ties. Other problems about the relative numbering, the 'key,'
                    mapping does not work with accidentals and translating the tune is done
                    after mapping. So, only tunes in C/Am are working :(

                    The next step will be a script, injected in the abc2svg editor, that
                    will define the mapping and add the lacking elements.

                    ---------- ABC tune ---------
                    %abc2-2

                    %%beginsvg
                    <style type="text/css">
                    .bn {font-family:sans-serif; font-size:15px}
                    </style>
                    %%endsvg
                    %%beginsvg
                    <defs>
                    <text id="n1" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">1</text>
                    <text id="n2" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">2</text>
                    <text id="n3f" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">b3</text>
                    <text id="n3" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">3</text>
                    <text id="n4" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">4</text>
                    <text id="n4s" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">#4</text>
                    <text id="n5" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">5</text>
                    <text id="n6" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">6</text>
                    <text id="n7" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">7</text>
                    <g id="n4-2">
                    <path class="stroke" d="m3.5 0l-7.2 0 0 -6.2 7.2 0"/>
                    <use x="0" y="0" xlink:href="#n4"/>
                    </g>
                    <g id="n3-2">
                    <path class="stroke" d="m3.5 0l-7.2 0 0 -6.2 7.2 0"/>
                    <use x="0" y="0" xlink:href="#n3"/>
                    </g>
                    </defs>
                    %%endsvg

                    %%map num1 octave,C print=c heads=n1
                    %%map num1 octave,D print=c heads=n2
                    %%map num1 octave,_E print=c heads=n3f
                    %%map num1 octave,E print=c heads=n3,n3-2
                    %%map num1 octave,F print=c heads=n4,n4-2
                    %%map num1 octave,^F print=c heads=n4s
                    %%map num1 octave,G print=c heads=n5
                    %%map num1 octave,A print=c heads=n6
                    %%map num1 octave,B print=c heads=n7

                    X:1
                    T:Penny Lane
                    M:4/4
                    L:1/4
                    %%score N 1
                    K:C
                    % normal
                    V:N
                    e/d/c/B/|c/B/A/G/|A/G/F2|z/G/ c/d/|e/d/c/B/-|
                    B/G/ c/d/|d/c/ c c/d/- d/_e/-|e3c/d/|_e//c//d/-
                    G//B//d/- d e/f/- f/g/||g>f e/f/- f/g/-|gfe/d/- d/c
                    % numeral
                    V:1 clef=none map=num1 stafflines=... stm=up
                    e/d/c/B/|c/B/A/G/|A/G/F2|z/G/ c/d/|e/d/c/B/-'|
                    B/G/ c/d/|d/c/ c c/d/-' d/_e/-'|e3c/d/|_e//c//d/-'
                    G//B//d/-' d e/f/-' f/g/||g>f e/f/-' f/g/-'|gfe/d/-' d/c/

                    --
                    Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
                    Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
                  • Hudson Flavio Meneses Lacerda
                    Hi, Phil. ... [snip] ... Thanks. I have had a quick view on your articles. You seems to be mainly interested on a notation to develop beginners musical
                    Message 10 of 29 , Oct 24
                      Hi, Phil.

                      pjn@... [abcusers] wrote:
                      > Hudson,
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for those links. I'm going to play around with that. I'm
                      > presently working on a series of short articles about the role
                      > writing and theory plays in music education, which i'm putting out
                      > here:
                      [snip]
                      > The first three are musings about the state of musical education, the
                      > role of writing, the disservice that standard notation can do to
                      > music etc.and something about my general approach, which I call
                      > "Musical Empowerment." The last two articles talk directly about
                      > numerical notation and a couple more are on the way, describing the
                      > tricky problems of relative harmony notation and then my own modified
                      > system (which I've yet to give a name).

                      Thanks.

                      I have had a quick view on your articles.

                      You seems to be mainly interested on a notation to develop beginners
                      musical abilities; currently, I am specially interested on symbolic
                      tools that can be useful for intermediate and advanced study (not only
                      for beginners). I am curious about potential advanced usage of the tools
                      you are developing.

                      While it is clear I agree with you about 'How Notation Empowers or Kills
                      Music', I think some 'Issues and Challenges' of the number notation are
                      consequence of the same dichotomy of "perception vs notation" that asked
                      for its creation: one chooses to include something at the cost of
                      excluding something else. As you know, different approaches are better
                      used in complementary way.

                      For beginners, one can chose (!) to focus the diatonic scale;
                      eventually, the minor mode raises an issue, because: 1) it shares
                      intervals with its relative major, while 2) it also has a tonic, P5th,
                      P4th (and occasionally a leading-tone, and even a M6th). Item 1)
                      suggests using "6" as tonic; item 2) asks for the tonic be notated as
                      "1". With "moveable do", some teachers choose to use tonic-la (la, ti,
                      do...), while others prefer tonic-do (do, re, ma...). Where is the
                      musical perception? In both "sides". I think _both_ approaches are
                      important for ear training, since each one make clear aspects of the
                      minor mode that are not evident in the other. One musts to select only
                      one option for beginners, but intermediate level asks for training the
                      other way as well (as paths for modulation, and for deeper understanding
                      of modal music).

                      By the way, some teachers use functional harmony symbols like S=T to
                      indicate a modulation to the subdominant. While this can work for folk
                      dances that jump from a key to another without transition, it does not
                      correspond to the experience of tonal music by Bach, for example. So,
                      the notation of functions (highlighting an essential aspect of tonal
                      music perception) may be reduced to a very poor understanding of
                      modulation, because one chooses to force a complex perception (ambiguity
                      between two or more unstable tonal regions) to be reduced (for sake of
                      notation simplicity) to a few symbols that may be wrongly taken as the
                      "essence" (instead of a "tendence") of the harmony of a given music
                      excerpt. It is very rare that a chord suddenly changes its harmonic
                      function. That is why I like the Schoenberg approach of registering a
                      modulating harmony _simultaneously_ in several regions (keys).

                      At this point, I ask you about the purpose of your notation: if it is a
                      ear training tool, the same music piece shall to be re-notated in
                      several different ways according to the matter in study. If it is a
                      simple notation to convey the musical piece itself, some criteria may
                      recommend the preferred notation rules -- but, then, important aspects
                      of the musical experience will be discarded as consequence of the
                      choice. There is also the risk of bias towards almost pure diatonic
                      music, what, for educational purposes, may be very limiting.

                      In this excerpt (quoted below), you seems to take the number notation
                      just as a preparatory stage before standard staff notation. Dense
                      chromaticism is considered out of scope, thus standard notation is
                      recommended for that (!). Since SMN is not a ear training approach, only
                      a notation system, I wonder what do you use as educational tools for
                      non-diatonic music -- and how to apply the musical experience achieved
                      with the diatonic numbers to the development of the perception and
                      understanding of chromatic music.

                      «««
                      [...] When faced with a challenging degree of chromaticism to notate,
                      the primary question should not necessarily be, “How do we notate this
                      numerically (at all costs)?” but rather “Who is the notation intended
                      for?” Musicians advanced enough to handle chromatically complex material
                      will reasonably be expected to read SMN. If not, then an insight into
                      numerical notation, with or without the help of a teacher, should soon
                      rectify the deficiency.
                      »»»
                      https://medium.com/@info_70544/the-case-for-numerical-music-notation-part-2-issues-and-challenges-436870e355d9


                      Is it clear for you what I meant when I wrote "I am interested in
                      separating musical training of notation training." and how any notation
                      for musical training is at risk of eventually displacing the focus from
                      the musical to the notational? The musical training usually involve some
                      kind of representation, but any representation of a complex experience,
                      like music, must be just a partial representation. Ditto for notation.

                      It is not a problem that numerical notation is designed for diatonic
                      music and it is not that good for highly chromatic music, so as it is
                      not a problem that ABC notation is not optimal to write music for large
                      orchestra, while it is unbeaten to write song collections with melody,
                      chords and lyrics. But, since chromatic music may be considered as an
                      extension of diatonic music, I think it is important to develop
                      educational approaches that explore the _links_ between diatonic and
                      12-tone music.


                      >
                      > Sorry, this is rather long, but I think you raise some really good
                      > questions that I grapple with daily. Exciting to hear that I'm not
                      > alone in my passion for relative notation, or indeed, for new
                      > approaches to music education. I live in Denmark, where real
                      > criticism of existing systems is hampered by constant superficial
                      > (but progressive sounding) criticism from within the system. I feel
                      > that confusion generally is a huge problem in music education, and it
                      > often goes uncorrected. My students understand moveable-do
                      > instinctively, but many assume that symbols are automatically
                      > fixed-do in a notation system, probably because the only notation
                      > system they know has entrenched this idea.

                      Numbers are excellent for music dictation, because one can write down a
                      melody before knowing the key. After all students have written the
                      degree steps, the teacher may ask them to write the music on the staff
                      in a certain key -- of course, this key that does not need to be that
                      key in which the music was played.

                      >
                      >
                      > I felt, with my approach, that the diatonic scale, being the natural
                      > and psychological phenomenon it is, should be the basis of the
                      > notation, because the "singing voice" (inside the mind, if not
                      > outside) will always reference back to it. The 12-tone scale is a
                      > technical construct, and a wonderful one at that, but it is
                      > artificial to the human psyche. From this human perspective, it's
                      > really 12 diatonic scales and interesting things that happen when
                      > they intertwine (chromaticism).
                      >
                      > In the notation, I'm using accidentals against the numbers (like #4
                      > or b3) to indicate chromaticism, but I see the problem when singing.
                      > Perhaps it doesn't need addressing in the detail, but more as a
                      > "bird's eye view" via theory. What I mean by that is it's OK to sing
                      > "7" when b7 is meant, as long as there's awareness about chromaticism
                      > as a phenomenon, that the tonal staircase changes with phenomena like
                      > "mixolydian" or "dorian." So, when singing the closing of Hey Jude,
                      > for example
                      >
                      > ||: 1- 3 5 | 2'121--| 2121- | b7,65--- :||
                      >
                      > it will be noticeable that the seventh flattens, as if the whole
                      > thing from now on has taken a new "modal signature" of 1 flat
                      > (mixolydian).

                      "Moveable do" provides additional syllables for the "inflected" degrees.
                      That is very helpful to develop awareness of the "intermediate" pitches.
                      (For certain purposes, one could also re-name the tonic -- as "sol", for
                      mixolydian.)

                      >
                      > I don't think there's any getting around the limitation of
                      > moveable-do, because the diatonic scale (like the musical ear it's
                      > connected to) is natural but limited. Theory (and the notation it's
                      > connected to) lifts us out of the limits via 12 diatonic positions
                      > and their relations. From instinctive simplicity to mind boggling
                      > complexity in one move. So the essence of my approach is to bind
                      > theory back to the musical ear by teaching the use of this simple
                      > tool to navigate complexity. Music education has too often rejected
                      > the ear, favouring technical approaches that address the 12-tone
                      > octave, as though this had replaced the diatonic scale. Then,
                      > ironically, at later stages, the ear is needed again (in ear
                      > training), but a technical habit has been instilled that is hard to
                      > break. They've learnt to read standard notation without accessing the
                      > ear, when it is the ear that "empowers." I think it's tempting to see
                      > the keyboard as a template for music, but I think this might be a
                      > blind spot, created by the connection between standard notation and
                      > the keyboard and general exposure to this "view" of music. Many of my
                      > beginners (I teach piano) are horribly confused by the keyboard and
                      > the way it makes different keys look different. When their eyes seem
                      > to hamper their ear, I encourage them to imagine (or actually look at
                      > a drawing of) a tonal staircase instead, then just use the keyboard
                      > to "test their guesses."

                      Yes.

                      By the way, I am considering an approach that, starting from a limited
                      pitch range, encourages trying the same melodic phrase at different
                      keys. For example, asking the student to figure out all ways to play the
                      verse "Hey, Jude, don't make it bad" using only black keys, then, the
                      same, using only white keys. From the latter, all responses should be
                      considered valid "moveable-do" structures to be exercised: sm mslr / dl,
                      l,drs, / rt, t,rml, / fr rfsd. All responses may, at the end, be written
                      on the staff, on several clefs, intervals compared, etc.


                      >
                      > I think if there's one idea that pervades all worthwhile thinking
                      > about the problems of music education, it's that everything has two
                      > or more perspectives and that reducing any question to a single one
                      > for simplicity's sake has ruined a lot of potential. Fixed/absolute
                      > and moveable/relative aren't alternatives, but supplements.
                      > Therefore, a notation system for each, two perspectives on the same
                      > question, is better than only one. So I'd say, don't try to solve the
                      > limitations of the moveable system at all, but cherish its organic
                      > simplicity and the way complexity grows out of it.When its
                      > limitations hamper understanding, that's when we need the other
                      > perspective of fixed and complex.
                      >
                      > Phil
                      >

                      I do not think "moveable do" is itself too limited, since it can be
                      successfully used from pentatonic to atonal (see, for example:
                      http://www.artlevine.com/?page_id=110 ); it is the approaches that use
                      it that may be limited or limiting. My main issue with "moveable do" is
                      the potential confusion it may arise in locations where do-re-mi are
                      used for pitches instead of pitch relations; then, there is the need of
                      mutatio, that may turn "moveable do" very subjective, for the best and
                      for the worse -- in some cases, it may be unsafe for sight-singing
                      (typically, some notes may be sung without syllables in chromatic
                      passages -- is that a problem?), while it is very rich to experience
                      several syllable sets ("ear perspectives") for the same music excerpt.

                      I have read somewhere that, in Hungary, Kodály approach included singing
                      with (chromatic) German pitch names, as advanced study targeting
                      awareness of absolute pitches. I think that was _not_ training for
                      identifying a frequency without any previous reference, but training for
                      knowing instruments/voices ranges, for achieving fast instrumental
                      response reading complex music, for transposing etc. (The training to
                      favour "perfect pitch" was based on singing certain songs always in the
                      same keys, from the early ages of childhood.) So, yes, Kodály approach
                      included both "moveable do" and "fixed C". But it seems that, even in
                      countries that name pitches as C, Cis, Des, D, Dis, Es etc., singing
                      those names is not very common.

                      I am speculating that to explore solfa syllables mainly as interval
                      structures (rather than mainly as scale degrees) may help to unify
                      "fixed do" and "moveable do" into a coherent approach (that still needs
                      to be tested). After all, there is no such thing "fixed do", because
                      pitches are always relative concepts, even when they are relative to
                      440, 435, 415, 392 Hz, etc. or to a fixed-tuning instrument.


                      We might continue the discussion off list.
                      Thank you for the input.


                      Hudson


                      --
                      Hudson Lacerda - https://www.hudsonlacerda.com
                      --

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                    • pjn@philnice.dk
                      This is very impressive. I m following with great interest. The melody line notation is looking a lot like I envisaged. I have no tech skills, but it does
                      Message 11 of 29 , Oct 24
                        This is very impressive. I'm following with great interest. The melody line notation is looking a lot like I envisaged. I have no tech skills, but it does appear that a "hack" with ABC is a good approach. Only inputting in C is hardly a problem, as it's equivalent to inputting a single set of symbols, as the integers themselves would be. If the Rousseau octave change (default to present octave) is too tricky, there's the JianPu method, which just assigns markers to octaves (kind of like ABC does): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1' 2' 3' 4' 5' 6' 7' 1'' 2''  etc.Penny Lane would be 5,12 || 3217, 17,6,5, | 6,5,4, 05,12 |......      
                      • pjn@philnice.dk
                        Hi. Many good questions. Minor mode is a knotty problem, and I admit, there is no simple solution. I have tended to dismiss solution 2), but having said that,
                        Message 12 of 29 , Oct 24
                          Hi.

                          Many good questions.

                          Minor mode is a knotty problem, and I admit, there is no simple solution. I have tended to dismiss solution 2), but having said that, it led to an interesting little reflection on modes and modal signatures, which I think opens some doors to intermediate and advanced use. In my own work with non diatonic music, I'm very aware that notation (e.g. absolute chord notation) is at best a rough reminder of what an idea really was. In the realm of modal chromaticism, I've also speculated a great deal about the concept of "non diatonic functions" and what this might mean for the advancement of music and the psyche that listens to it. So even though I'm tending to think "ear training" at beginner level initially, that's certainly not the extent of my ambition. I think solving the problems that arise with the notation, so that it can successfully navigate more and more complexity, will open doors to new ideas and concepts to work by. My chord notation, which I'm writing about in part 3, a kind of "tonal centre based basso continuo" might even suggest a quite different way of notating harmony, if not by me, then someone who sees what I'm getting at but not quite seeing.   

                          "...I think some 'Issues and Challenges' of the number notation are 
                          consequence of the same dichotomy of "perception vs notation" that asked
                          for its creation: one chooses to include something at the cost of
                          excluding something else."

                          This sounds just like a problem I'm touching on in part 3, about finding a balance between analysis and description (which i'm calling communication). SMN is descriptive and communicates directly what's where and when without analyzing. Functional harmonic analysis (Riemann's terminology) is an example of the purely analytical, not designed to communicate content (in real, musical time) but to explore what it means. I see numerical notation as finding the right compromise between the two. Something gets lost in notating contextual relation (analytical), whilst something else gets lost in describing context neutrally (for communication). I think this will always be a trade-off. As with any reading of language, the defecit is made up in the skill of the reader.

                          I see a number of uses for the notation. One is ear training and self-notation for the beginner (finding the notes by ear and writing them down). At more advanced level, it's relevant for harmonic theory, from the relationships between functions to ideas of substitution, both diatonically and chromatically. When I'm working with an advanced student with reharmonisation, my numerical chord notation is more relevant than absolute chord notation, because they can use it to plan contrapuntal lines, as bass lines to match new chords to, or harmonic lines to reharmonise with new bass notes etc. because all this is much more visibly evident when related back to the key root. I have also used the notation "therapeutically" with advanced students, to "reteach" them SMN from a friendlier perspective. This could be students who are very musically capable, but freeze up when confronted with standard notation. One very interesting use I found was with schoolchildren, whom I taught songwriting. Over several weeks, small groups of kids from 11-13 worked on lyrics and sang melodies at me, which I harmonized and wrote down in SMN. The kids coudn't read SMN, so I added the numerals to the ABC scores and taught them to pick out their own melodies on the keyboard.        

                          "Dense chromaticism is considered out of scope..."

                          Not necessarily. I think, with good sound development and problem solving reflection, numerical notation can tackle pretty much anything, but the question is, to what end? As long as it's in the service of the music, via the reader/player, rather than the notation itself, all well and good. You mention the problem of "...displacing the focus from the musical to the notational" and I think we're on exactly the same page here, concerned about the risk that the study of notation, technique, theory, the mechanics of things, can overshadow the thing they're about. This we can learn daily from the negative side of SMN. So I don't think I'm being unambitious or short sighted, but cautious and protective of the essence, warning against the same pitfall in the solution that was the reason for the problem. I think as teachers we have to be philosophical, aware of the problem of the tools overshadowing the work, the phenomenon reduced to descriptions of the phenomenon, a priori vs. a posteriori. I have to keep reminding my students that notation should work for them, not the other way round. My best way of saying that is to take the notation away and say "play!"

                          "Numbers are excellent for music dictation, because one can write down a
                          melody before knowing the key."

                          Interesting. I have taught non-musicians, singers and schoolchildren numerical notation, often with no instruments but the singing voice and a tonal staircase drawn on a blackboard. I would start with a quiz. No explanations, just "what's this tune?": 1231 1231 345 345 565431 565431 15,1 15,1. So far, in every class or group, I've had at least one "natural reader," someone who instinctively saw the connection. With older schoolkids (teenagers), I've taught them the notation, then given them some sort of music dictation. The singers always did better than the instrumentalists. I've had people of all ages saying "wow!" about their own abilities and a lot of negativity from people with fixed ideas and "shares" in technical views of music. The worst was from conventional music teachers who've never considered the questions we're onto here. As for the academic community, I'm not even going to go there......

                          Phil
                        • Hudson Flavio Meneses Lacerda
                          ... Hi. ... I confess I had never before seriously considered to use anything different of 1 or 0 for the tonic or reference pitch when using numbers.
                          Message 13 of 29 , Oct 24
                            pjn@... [abcusers] wrote:
                            > Hi.
                            >

                            Hi.

                            > Many good questions.
                            >
                            >
                            > Minor mode is a knotty problem, and I admit, there is no simple
                            > solution. I have tended to dismiss solution 2), but having said that,
                            > it led to an interesting little reflection on modes and modal
                            > signatures, which I think opens some doors to intermediate and
                            > advanced use. In my own work with non diatonic music, I'm very aware
                            > that notation (e.g. absolute chord notation) is at best a rough
                            > reminder of what an idea really was.

                            I confess I had never before seriously considered to use anything
                            different of 1 or 0 for the tonic or reference pitch when using numbers.

                            Recently, I read a text by Alejandro Zuleta about an adaptation of
                            Kodály approach for Colombia. His research team decided to not use
                            "moveable do". Instead, they assigned numbers to the hand sings (1=d,
                            2=r, 3=m, 4=f, 5=s, 6=l, 7=t). The minor mode suggested them to use "6"
                            as tonic, but they refused to do that. Their solution was to invent new
                            hand signs for the modal steps 3, 6 and 7 of the natural minor scale, so
                            that a fixed hand sign would be used for "1" (tonic of a major r minor
                            scale).

                            After reading your articles and to see some /jiangsu/ examples, I am now
                            preferring your option (tonic=6), since it can be used for any diatonic
                            mode (e.g. tonic=2 for Dorian) and to notate some pop and rock music
                            that is not very tonic-centric, but it is diatonic.

                            I think the stairs image and the numeric order can be cognitively strong
                            enough to survive to "chromatic bending" and "mode reassignments" in
                            intermediate and advanced approaches.

                            Therefore, I think it is nice to use tonic=6 for "communication" in
                            minor mode, and let something like tonic=1, mode=[1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7], for
                            "analytical"/comparative approaches.

                            [...]
                            > This sounds just like a problem I'm touching on in part 3, about
                            > finding a balance between analysis and description (which i'm calling
                            > communication).
                            [...]

                            Looking forward for part 3... :-)

                            > I see a number of uses for the notation. One is ear training and
                            > self-notation for the beginner (finding the notes by ear and writing
                            > them down). At more advanced level, it's relevant for harmonic
                            > theory, from the relationships between functions to ideas of
                            > substitution, both diatonically and chromatically. When I'm working
                            > with an advanced student with reharmonisation, my numerical chord
                            > notation is more relevant than absolute chord notation, because they
                            > can use it to plan contrapuntal lines, as bass lines to match new
                            > chords to, or harmonic lines to reharmonise with new bass notes etc.
                            > because all this is much more visibly evident when related back to
                            > the key root. I have also used the notation "therapeutically" with
                            > advanced students, to "reteach" them SMN from a friendlier
                            > perspective. This could be students who are very musically capable,
                            > but freeze up when confronted with standard notation. One very
                            > interesting use I found was with schoolchildren, whom I taught
                            > songwriting. Over several weeks, small groups of kids from 11-13
                            > worked on lyrics and sang melodies at me, which I harmonized and
                            > wrote down in SMN. The kids coudn't read SMN, so I added the numerals
                            > to the ABC scores and taught them to pick out their own melodies on
                            > the keyboard.

                            Yes, it is clear that numeric notation is very useful!

                            >
                            >
                            > "Dense chromaticism is considered out of scope..."
                            >
                            >
                            > Not necessarily.

                            It is good to read that, because that was not my first impression.

                            > I think, with good sound development and problem
                            > solving reflection, numerical notation can tackle pretty much
                            > anything, but the question is, to what end?

                            For example, to develop _perceptive_ strategies to better understand
                            some music by Messiaen, Bartók, Berg, Stravinski, Brahms, Debussy or
                            Gesualdo da Venosa. (Specially when one wants/needs to be able to sing
                            that music.)

                            It may be that a diatonic notation is simple unsuitable for that, since
                            that chromatic music may be well described as refusing to fit into a
                            diatonic model. Anyway, I am interested in ways to apply the knowledge
                            learned from diatonic music for the perception of chromatic music.


                            > As long as it's in the
                            > service of the music, via the reader/player, rather than the notation
                            > itself, all well and good. You mention the problem of "...displacing
                            > the focus from the musical to the notational" and I think we're on
                            > exactly the same page here, concerned about the risk that the study
                            > of notation, technique, theory, the mechanics of things, can
                            > overshadow the thing they're about. This we can learn daily from the
                            > negative side of SMN. So I don't think I'm being unambitious or short
                            > sighted, but cautious and protective of the essence, warning against
                            > the same pitfall in the solution that was the reason for the problem.
                            > I think as teachers we have to be philosophical, aware of the problem
                            > of the tools overshadowing the work, the phenomenon reduced to
                            > descriptions of the phenomenon, a priori vs. a posteriori. I have to
                            > keep reminding my students that notation should work for them, not
                            > the other way round. My best way of saying that is to take the
                            > notation away and say "play!"

                            Right.

                            >
                            >
                            > "Numbers are excellent for music dictation, because one can write
                            > down a melody before knowing the key."
                            >
                            >
                            > Interesting. I have taught non-musicians, singers and schoolchildren
                            > numerical notation, often with no instruments but the singing voice
                            > and a tonal staircase drawn on a blackboard. I would start with a
                            > quiz. No explanations, just "what's this tune?": 1231 1231 345 345
                            > 565431 565431 15,1 15,1. So far, in every class or group, I've had at
                            > least one "natural reader," someone who instinctively saw the
                            > connection. With older schoolkids (teenagers), I've taught them the
                            > notation, then given them some sort of music dictation. The singers
                            > always did better than the instrumentalists.

                            Interesting.

                            > I've had people of all
                            > ages saying "wow!" about their own abilities and a lot of negativity
                            > from people with fixed ideas and "shares" in technical views of
                            > music. The worst was from conventional music teachers who've never
                            > considered the questions we're onto here. As for the academic
                            > community, I'm not even going to go there......
                            >
                            >
                            > Phil
                            >
                            >

                            Cheers,
                            Hudson
                          • Clifton Davis
                            Marginally relevant. I am coming into the discussion late, however the truest thing said is that how good a particular notation is depends on what you are
                            Message 14 of 29 , Oct 25
                              Marginally relevant. 

                              I am coming into the discussion late, however the truest thing said is that how good a particular notation is depends on what you are using it for.  I have a particular notation I use in software as a compositional aid.   I am interested not only in taking a melody across various keys, but also a melodic or accompaniment line across various chords.  As a result I'm not as interested in translating from ABC as translating into ABC given a particular key and chord palette.  I am using a RelativeTone/Duration notation with numbers for the relative tone.  For an octave up or down from 1,  I can use either 8 and -6 or ^1 and v1 and ^^1, ^8 or 15 for two octives up.  But what might be relevant to your needs is that for the tone between 1 and 2, I use 1.5 which is neutral with respect to sharps and flats.  There is no need to change notation when dealing with a major key or minor key melody, the notational distinction being there is no 3.5 or 7.5 for a major key and no 2.5 or 5.5 in a minor key.  However for purposes of translation of the notation into a major key, 3.5 would be treated as a 4 for a rising melodic line and as a 3 for a falling one, for example.

                              Of less interest to you, once a relative chord has been specified then 1, 3, and 5 are remapped to the root, third and fifth of the chord, and if the 7th is not specified by the chord, then 7 translates to that tone of the underlying key which 2 or 3 semi tones down from ^1.  There are typically either 2 or 3 semi-tones between notes 1 and 3.  If there are three, then 1.5, 2 and 2.5 are translated naturally. Otherwise, in isolation, 1.5 is a semi tone up from 1,  2.5 is a semi-tone down from 3 and 2 is the tone of the underlying key between 1 and 3.  When two notes from the interval are used in close proximity and there are only two tones available then 1.5 or 2.5 retain their meaning and 2 is adjusted to cover the remaining tone.  However if we use the notation 2.0 or if all 3 relative notes are used in close proximity,  the 2 or 2.0 is taken from the underlying key and 1.5 and 2.5 are a semi-tone up or down respectively, even if this duplicates the translation of 1 or 3.

                              The advantage of this type of notation is that it allows for the convenient re-use of named melodic and accompaniment components across different keys and chords. It can even handle certain types of counterpoint.  


                              On Oct 23, 2017 4:14 AM, "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                               

                              I've been using ABC (platform mostly ABCEdit) for about 10 years and am pretty proficient with it. I'm not a programmer but a teacher whose ideas are mostly pencil on paper and I'm looking for help with the tech side of things either within ABC or as an offshoot inspired by it.

                              As a teacher, I have developed a method that revolves around the meeting of a) absolute and b) relative notation. Whilst a) is the standard music notation we know and love, b) is moveable-do symbol systems like sol-fa/solfege and numbered notation (e.g. Rousseau and JianPu). Numbered notation has great teaching potential, but the established systems are simply not good enough. Therefore, I've developed my own. It has rhythm symbols like standard notation, but no stave or note heads. These are replaced by numerals. It is always used monophonically, but has a system of chord notation with some traits borrowed from earlier systems like harmonic analysis and basso continuo. It allows beginners to work in "top line and chords" and learn harmonic theory from the word go.

                              At the moment, I write my numerical notation system on paper (and teach my students to do the same). If I want it included in an ABC score, I use the chord/annotation function ("x" or "_x") next to every note, which does get a bit laborious and confuses the code no end, so I'm looking for help with one or both of these projects:


                              1. A modification of an ABCEdit  (or other platform) so I can hit a button "Numerical Notation" and get the numerals posted up automatically from the given key. Same basic principle as accordion fingering etc., but how do I do it? Any help greatly appreciated.

                              2. A simple program to write and layout numerical notation in pretty much the same way as ABC works via postscript, i.e. the same type of code to produce a graphic file with all the trappings of a standard score, but minus the stave and with the note heads replaced by numerals in a straight, horizontal line. Anyone interested in developing this with me, chiefly on the programming side, but with any relevant input will share equally in what ever comes out of it, whether it's commercial gain, accolades or just the warm, nerdy feeling of doing something cool.

                              If anyone's interested, I can link to various articles and samples by request.

                              Phil

                                 


                            • pjn@philnice.dk
                              Clifton, It sounds interesting and I m doing my best to picture it but I m not quite there. Have you got a link or a sample? Cause I d really like to see what
                              Message 15 of 29 , Oct 25
                                Clifton,

                                It sounds interesting and I'm doing my best to picture it but I'm not quite there. Have you got a link or a sample? 'Cause I'd really like to see what it looks like.

                                Phil
                              • Jean-Francois Moine
                                On 24 Oct 2017 19:11:58 +0000 ... Hi Phil, Here is the 2nd step for your system. It is a ABC file to be included on top of ABC tunes. It contains: - the
                                Message 16 of 29 , Oct 26
                                  On 24 Oct 2017 19:11:58 +0000
                                  "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                  > This is very impressive. I'm following with great interest. The melody line notation is looking a lot like I envisaged. I have no tech skills, but it does appear that a "hack" with ABC is a good approach.

                                  Hi Phil,

                                  Here is the 2nd step for your system.
                                  It is a ABC file to be included on top of ABC tunes.
                                  It contains:
                                  - the definitions of the notes as numbers, of some decorations for the
                                  octaves, accidentals and of the glyphs of the half/whole notes,
                                  - the definition of the decorations,
                                  - a javascript function which changes the representation of the music:
                                  - only the first voice is changed,
                                  - the staff is reduced to 0 line (what's why the measure bars are
                                  short),
                                  - the notes are put as numbers relative to the key signature above the
                                  middle line (c for a treble clef),
                                  - the octave change is indicated by a ' (quote) or a , (comma)
                                  (only one in this version),
                                  - the stems are the standard ones. When no stem, a rectangle indicates
                                  a whole note (or longer). The half-note has a rectangle at the
                                  bottom of the stem.
                                  - the accidentals are put on the right of the notes as accidental
                                  signs (sharp, natural and flat only),
                                  - the stems and ties are drawn upwards.
                                  I did not implement specific chord symbols.

                                  This file may be used with abc2svg only. It does not work with abcm2ps
                                  or any other ABC program.

                                  You may insert it on top of your tunes and use the result with the
                                  abc2svg batch (command line) programs and the abc2svg editor.
                                  Unix-like example (this file is called 'phil.abc'):

                                  cat phil.abc mytunes.abc > /tmp/foobar.abc
                                  - batch
                                  ./abcjs24 /tmp/foobar.abc > Out.xhtml
                                  - with the editor
                                  File > Load file > /tmp/foobar.abc

                                  With batch programs, you may put it before your files.
                                  Example:

                                  ./abcjs24 phil.abc mytunes.abc > Out.xhtml

                                  You may also put
                                  %%abc-include phil.abc
                                  on top of your tunes, so that you would use them directly with batch
                                  programs, and the editor would ask for the location of phil.abc before
                                  rendering.

                                  And here it is (107 lines with comments):

                                  -----------------8<-----------------
                                  %%beginsvg
                                  <style type="text/css">
                                  .bn {font-family:sans-serif; font-size:15px}
                                  </style>
                                  <defs>
                                  <text id="n1" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">1</text>
                                  <text id="n2" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">2</text>
                                  <text id="n3" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">3</text>
                                  <text id="n4" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">4</text>
                                  <text id="n5" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">5</text>
                                  <text id="n6" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">6</text>
                                  <text id="n7" class="bn" x="-1.5" y="16">7</text>
                                  <text id="q" class="bn" x="8" y="16">'</text>
                                  <text id="c" class="bn" x="8" y="16">,</text>
                                  <path id="h" class="stroke" d="m3.5 -1l-7.2 0 0 -6.2 7.2 0"/>
                                  <path id="w" class="stroke" d="m6 -5l-7.2 0 0 -6.2 7.2 0 0 6.2"/>
                                  <text id="f" class="music" x="-10" y="12"></text>
                                  <text id="n" class="music" x="-10" y="12"></text>
                                  <text id="s" class="music" x="-10" y="12"></text>
                                  </defs>
                                  %%endsvg

                                  %%deco q 0 q 0 0 0
                                  %%deco c 0 c 0 0 0
                                  %%deco h 0 h 0 0 0
                                  %%deco w 0 w 0 0 0
                                  %%deco f 0 f 0 0 0
                                  %%deco n 0 n 0 0 0
                                  %%deco s 0 s 0 0 0

                                  %%beginjs
                                  var NOTE = 8,
                                  SL_ABOVE = 0x01,
                                  BASE_LEN = 1536

                                  user.get_abcmodel = function(tsfirst, voice_tb, anno_type, info) {
                                  var s, note, pit, nn,
                                  prev_oct = -10,
                                  delta = voice_tb[0].ckey.k_delta

                                  // change the staff
                                  voice_tb[0].stafflines = "...";

                                  // no (visible) clef
                                  voice_tb[0].clef.invis = true

                                  // scan the first voice of the tune
                                  for (s = voice_tb[0].sym; s; s = s.next) {
                                  if (s.type != NOTE) { // change only the notes
                                  if (s.type == CLEF)
                                  s.invis = true
                                  continue
                                  }
                                  note = s.notes[0];

                                  // note head
                                  pit = note.pit - delta - 2;
                                  nn = ((pit + 77) % 7) + 1; // note number
                                  note.head = "n" + nn;

                                  // display the note as C5 with stem up
                                  note.pit = 23; // 'c'
                                  s.stem = 1;

                                  // octave
                                  nn = (pit / 7) | 0
                                  if (nn > prev_oct) {
                                  if (prev_oct != -10) {
                                  if (!note.a_dcn)
                                  note.a_dcn = [];
                                  note.a_dcn.push('q')
                                  }
                                  prev_oct = nn
                                  } else if (nn < prev_oct) {
                                  if (!note.a_dcn)
                                  note.a_dcn = [];
                                  note.a_dcn.push('c');
                                  prev_oct = nn
                                  }

                                  // half and whole notes
                                  if (s.dur >= BASE_LEN / 2) {
                                  if (!note.a_dcn)
                                  note.a_dcn = [];
                                  note.a_dcn.push(s.dur >= BASE_LEN ? 'w' : 'h')
                                  }

                                  // accidentals
                                  if (note.acc) {
                                  if (!note.a_dcn)
                                  note.a_dcn = []
                                  switch (note.acc) {
                                  case -1: note.a_dcn.push('f'); break
                                  case 3: note.a_dcn.push('n'); break
                                  case 1: note.a_dcn.push('s'); break
                                  }
                                  note.acc = 0
                                  }

                                  // set the ties up
                                  if (note.ti1)
                                  note.ti1 = SL_ABOVE
                                  }
                                  }
                                  %%endjs
                                  -----------------8<-----------------

                                  Example with %%abc-include:

                                  %abc2-2
                                  %%abc-include phil.abc
                                  X:2
                                  T:Dream a little
                                  M:4/4
                                  L:1/4
                                  K:C
                                  |: zc B/>c/ B/>A/ | c2B2 | zc B/>c/ B/>A/ | ^c/>e/ c _B/>A/- A |
                                  zd =c/>d/ c/>A/ |d/>c/ _A/>c/- c2 |G/>A/ c/>d/ _e e/>d/-|d4 :|

                                  --
                                  Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
                                  Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
                                • pjn@philnice.dk
                                  That s looking great. And with the Rousseau octave change method! Nice. I noticed that b s (flats) weren t appearing but # s are. Can the key signature become
                                  Message 17 of 29 , Oct 26
                                    That's looking great. And with the Rousseau octave change method! Nice. I noticed that b's (flats) weren't appearing but #'s are. Can the key signature become invisible? 
                                  • pjn@philnice.dk
                                    A non-tech update: Here is part 4 of my article series The Case for Numerical Music Notation
                                    Message 18 of 29 , Oct 27
                                      A non-tech update:

                                      Here is part 4 of my article series The Case for Numerical Music Notation
                                       
                                    • WARREN PORTER
                                      I have had a JavaScript site to read abc for a number of years.  If you save its output on a file ending with .nwctxt , the NoteWorthy Viewer (free) can show
                                      Message 19 of 29 , Oct 28
                                        I have had a JavaScript site to read abc for a number of years.  If you save its output on a file ending with ".nwctxt", the NoteWorthy Viewer (free) can show it to you. Convert abc to NoteWorthy Composer





                                      • Steve Langford
                                        Excellent, John! I have saved the Hotlink to and look forward to using it. Thanks, -Steve- - - - - - On 10/28/2017
                                        Message 20 of 29 , Oct 28


                                          Excellent, John! I have saved the Hotlink to <http://www.wjporter.com/nwc/abcnwc.htm> and look forward to using it. Thanks, -Steve-

                                          - - - - -
                                          On 10/28/2017 6:53 AM, WARREN PORTER wbporter455@... [abcusers] wrote:
                                           
                                          I have had a JavaScript site to read abc for a number of years.  If you save its output on a file ending with ".nwctxt", the NoteWorthy Viewer (free) can show it to you. Convert abc to NoteWorthy Composer
                                          ...
                                        • Hudson Flavio Meneses Lacerda
                                          ... Very interesting! Thank you, Phil! Hudson -- Hudson Lacerda - https://www.hudsonlacerda.com -- - Venha para a Diaspora* - uma rede social livre e
                                          Message 21 of 29 , Oct 30
                                            pjn@... [abcusers] wrote:
                                            > A non-tech update:
                                            >
                                            > Here is part 4 of my article series The Case for Numerical Music Notation https://medium.com/@info_70544/the-case-for-numerical-music-notation-part-3-the-challenge-of-chord-notation-4bc4a02174e2 https://medium.com/@info_70544/the-case-for-numerical-music-notation-part-3-the-challenge-of-chord-notation-4bc4a02174e2
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            Very interesting!
                                            Thank you, Phil!
                                            Hudson

                                            --
                                            Hudson Lacerda - https://www.hudsonlacerda.com
                                            --

                                            - Venha para a Diaspora* - uma rede social livre e descentralizada
                                            https://diasporafoundation.org
                                            https://diasporabr.com.br

                                            - Mantenha o controle de sua computação, senão ela vai controlar você!
                                            https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.html

                                            OPORTUNIDADE DE TRABALHO ESCRAVO!
                                            http://www.viomundo.com.br/denuncias/no-ar-a-propaganda-enganosa-do-trabalho-intermitente-e-escravidao.html
                                            ---
                                            Kapitalismus Über Demokratie - capitalismo acima da democracia esfola o
                                            trabalhador
                                            http://www.viomundo.com.br/voce-escreve/capitalismo-acima-da-democracia-esfola-o-trabalhador.html


                                            «O golpe é contra o povo e contra a Nação. O golpe é misógino. O golpe é
                                            homofóbico. O golpe é racista. É a imposição da cultura da intolerância,
                                            do preconceito, da violência.» (Dilma Rousseff)

                                            «The empowerment of the nation's most corrupt politicians was a key
                                            feature, not a bug, of Dilma's impeachment.» (Glenn Greenwald)
                                          • Jean-Francois Moine
                                            On 26 Oct 2017 17:45:05 +0000 ... Hi Phil, Sorry for the delay, there was some developments (and bug fixes) to do in abc2svg. I attach a new version of
                                            Message 22 of 29 , Nov 2
                                              On 26 Oct 2017 17:45:05 +0000
                                              "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              > That's looking great. And with the Rousseau octave change method! Nice. I noticed that b's (flats) weren't appearing but #'s are. Can the key signature become invisible?

                                              Hi Phil,

                                              Sorry for the delay, there was some developments (and bug fixes) to do
                                              in abc2svg.
                                              I attach a new version of phil.abc that could work better.

                                              --
                                              Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
                                              Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
                                            • pjn@philnice.dk
                                              Hi Jef. Excellent. It s looking very good. There s still the glitch with missing flats, but nothing else as far as I can see. The idea of modulation
                                              Message 23 of 29 , Nov 3
                                                Hi Jef.

                                                Excellent. It's looking very good. There's still the glitch with missing flats, but nothing else as far as I can see. The idea of "modulation signature" works a treat. 

                                                I'm working on a couple of articles about "Relative Figured Bass" as well a general outline of the whole system, in which I'll use this for the graphics. I'd like to mention something about the work you've been doing, so I'll show you the drafts before I publish to get your approval and maybe some input if that's ok.

                                                Phil   
                                              • Jean-Francois Moine
                                                On 04 Nov 2017 01:51:53 +0000 ... Hi Phil, I think I did not correctly understand how the key signature changes would be indicated. Here is a new version. --
                                                Message 24 of 29 , Nov 14
                                                  On 04 Nov 2017 01:51:53 +0000
                                                  "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                  > Excellent. It's looking very good. There's still the glitch with missing flats, but nothing else as far as I can see. The idea of "modulation signature" works a treat.

                                                  Hi Phil,

                                                  I think I did not correctly understand how the key signature changes
                                                  would be indicated. Here is a new version.

                                                  --
                                                  Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
                                                  Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
                                                • pjn@philnice.dk
                                                  I like the look of it. The square brackets around the signature changes were just what I envisaged. The square whole note is great, but I notice that 1/2 and
                                                  Message 25 of 29 , Nov 14
                                                    I like the look of it. The square brackets around the signature changes were just what I envisaged. 

                                                    The square whole note is great, but I notice that 1/2 and 1/4 notes look the same as each other (just a stem). Is it possible to get the square head at the bottom of the stem for 1/2 notes?  
                                                  • Jean-Francois Moine
                                                    On 14 Nov 2017 15:41:50 +0000 ... Strange: for 1/2 notes (id= h in the defs), I draw 3 sides of the square, the 4th side is the stem (the square is on the
                                                    Message 26 of 29 , Nov 14
                                                      On 14 Nov 2017 15:41:50 +0000
                                                      "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                      > The square whole note is great, but I notice that 1/2 and 1/4 notes look the same as each other (just a stem). Is it possible to get the square head at the bottom of the stem for 1/2 notes?

                                                      Strange: for 1/2 notes (id="h" in the defs), I draw 3 sides of the
                                                      square, the 4th side is the stem (the square is on the left).
                                                      If you don't see that, may you generate a simple tune ("c c2 c4")
                                                      and send me the .xhtml result?

                                                      --
                                                      Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
                                                      Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
                                                    • pjn@philnice.dk
                                                      Example 1: half half whole_1 When I did this, I got example 2: note.a_dcn.push(s.dur = BASE_LEN ? w : w )
                                                      Message 27 of 29 , Nov 14
                                                      Example 1: "half half whole_1"


                                                      When I did this, I got example 2: note.a_dcn.push(s.dur >= BASE_LEN ? 'w' : 'w') 
                                                    • Jean-Francois Moine
                                                      On 14 Nov 2017 16:35:44 +0000 ... Oops, sorry, I did not try with the editor and there were ID conflicts. This new version should work better. -- Ken ar
                                                      Message 28 of 29 , Nov 14
                                                        On 14 Nov 2017 16:35:44 +0000
                                                        "pjn@... [abcusers]" <abcusers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                        > Example 1: "half half whole_1"

                                                        Oops, sorry, I did not try with the editor and there were ID conflicts.
                                                        This new version should work better.

                                                        --
                                                        Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
                                                        Jef | http://moinejf.free.fr/
                                                      • pjn@philnice.dk
                                                        Excellent.This is how it s looking with Penny Lane.
                                                        Message 29 of 29 , Nov 14
                                                        Excellent.This is how it's looking with "Penny Lane."
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