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Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS

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  • Chris Granger
    The former NYC line from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid is back in serive. Sometime soon, the entire route as it was known in the 1970s is suppose to be back in
    Message 1 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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      The former NYC line from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid is back in serive.
      Sometime soon, the entire route as it was known in the 1970s is suppose to
      be back in operation. They just need to bridge from Carter to Saranac Lake.

      Chris
    • Keith F. Maloney
      Tracks from Utica to Lake Placid were never taken up...Service via excursions runs from Utica to Thendara and Carter Sta., on the southern end, and from
      Message 2 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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        Tracks from Utica to Lake Placid were never taken up...Service via
        excursions runs from Utica to Thendara and Carter Sta., on the southern end,
        and from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid on the North...A station is being
        rebuilt to original blueprints at Tupper Lake...Maintenance and
        equipment-shifting trains run the entire length of the line at least twice a
        year...The abandoned portion of the original Utica-Montreal route is from
        Lake Clear Jct. between Tupper Lake and Saranac Lake, North to Malone and
        hence over the border to Montreal...For more information on all of this see:
        Adirondack Scenic Railroad website, plus the book Where Did The Tracks Go?,
        by Michael J. Kudish...Riding the line between Utica and Thendara/Old Forge
        during the summer is a delight, with retro late '30s-style NYC-type coaches,
        and much Alco power!...Enjoy it this summer if you can!...Keith Maloney,
        Syracuse, NY...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Chris Granger" <chris.granger@...>
        To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:48 AM
        Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


        > The former NYC line from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid is back in serive.
        > Sometime soon, the entire route as it was known in the 1970s is suppose to
        > be back in operation. They just need to bridge from Carter to Saranac
        > Lake.
        >
        > Chris
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/780 - Release Date: 4/29/2007
        > 6:30 AM
        >
        >
      • Chris Granger
        The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn Central was in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake Placid to Remsen)
        Message 3 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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          The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn Central was
          in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake Placid to
          Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them. I don't know
          how much was removed but Michael Kudish documented that track was indeed
          removed. You will find that in his updated version of Where Did The Tracks
          Go in the 1996 release called Adirondack Railroads - A History and now THAT
          has been updated as a four volume set called Mountain Railroads of New York
          State (only Vol. 1 was released so far). Michael and I had long
          conversations on the Ottawa Division and we talked about the Adirondack and
          Chateaugay lines (latter was a D&H line). He said he was hoping for this
          new volume to include exactly which sections between Lake Placid and Remsen
          were removed before NY State took possession.

          Chris
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
          To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 8:58 AM
          Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


          > Tracks from Utica to Lake Placid were never taken up...Service via
          > excursions runs from Utica to Thendara and Carter Sta., on the southern
          > end,
          > and from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid on the North...A station is being
          > rebuilt to original blueprints at Tupper Lake...Maintenance and
          > equipment-shifting trains run the entire length of the line at least twice
          > a
          > year...The abandoned portion of the original Utica-Montreal route is from
          > Lake Clear Jct. between Tupper Lake and Saranac Lake, North to Malone and
          > hence over the border to Montreal...For more information on all of this
          > see:
          > Adirondack Scenic Railroad website, plus the book Where Did The Tracks
          > Go?,
          > by Michael J. Kudish...Riding the line between Utica and Thendara/Old
          > Forge
          > during the summer is a delight, with retro late '30s-style NYC-type
          > coaches,
          > and much Alco power!...Enjoy it this summer if you can!...Keith Maloney
        • Keith F. Maloney
          Ok, I stand corrected on the historical track-removal details...The plain facts more recently, are: Thanks to dozens of dedicated area residents, and very
          Message 4 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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            Ok, I stand corrected on the historical track-removal details...The plain
            facts more recently, are: Thanks to dozens of dedicated area residents,
            and very hard-working professional railroader volunteers, "retro" excursion
            trains are running on tracks that years ago were full of rust 365 days a
            year...As we discuss these relatively minor points, the Adirondack
            Scenic RR plans to expand northward, sooner rather than later...Info on this
            is supposed to be forthcoming by this fall...As I said in my previous post,
            let's continue to support what is an on-going and so far successful return
            of service on this picturesque mountain railroad...Keith Maloney, Syracuse,
            NY
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Chris Granger" <chris.granger@...>
            To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:33 AM
            Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


            > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn Central
            > was
            > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake Placid to
            > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them. I don't know
            > how much was removed but Michael Kudish documented that track was indeed
            > removed. You will find that in his updated version of Where Did The
            > Tracks
            > Go in the 1996 release called Adirondack Railroads - A History and now
            > THAT
            > has been updated as a four volume set called Mountain Railroads of New
            > York
            > State (only Vol. 1 was released so far). Michael and I had long
            > conversations on the Ottawa Division and we talked about the Adirondack
            > and
            > Chateaugay lines (latter was a D&H line). He said he was hoping for this
            > new volume to include exactly which sections between Lake Placid and
            > Remsen
            > were removed before NY State took possession.
            >
            > Chris
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
            > To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 8:58 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
            >
            >
            >> Tracks from Utica to Lake Placid were never taken up...Service via
            >> excursions runs from Utica to Thendara and Carter Sta., on the southern
            >> end,
            >> and from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid on the North...A station is being
            >> rebuilt to original blueprints at Tupper Lake...Maintenance and
            >> equipment-shifting trains run the entire length of the line at least
            >> twice
            >> a
            >> year...The abandoned portion of the original Utica-Montreal route is from
            >> Lake Clear Jct. between Tupper Lake and Saranac Lake, North to Malone and
            >> hence over the border to Montreal...For more information on all of this
            >> see:
            >> Adirondack Scenic Railroad website, plus the book Where Did The Tracks
            >> Go?,
            >> by Michael J. Kudish...Riding the line between Utica and Thendara/Old
            >> Forge
            >> during the summer is a delight, with retro late '30s-style NYC-type
            >> coaches,
            >> and much Alco power!...Enjoy it this summer if you can!...Keith Maloney
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/780 - Release Date: 4/29/2007
            > 6:30 AM
            >
            >
          • Keith F. Maloney
            Didn t go thru as reply--trying again--KM... ... From: Keith F. Maloney To: Sent:
            Message 5 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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              Didn't go thru as reply--trying again--KM...
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
              To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


              > Ok, I stand corrected on the historical track-removal details...The plain
              > facts more recently, are: Thanks to dozens of dedicated area residents,
              > and very hard-working professional railroader volunteers, "retro"
              > excursion
              > trains are running on tracks that years ago were full of rust 365 days a
              > year...As we discuss these relatively minor points, the Adirondack
              > Scenic RR plans to expand northward, sooner rather than later...Info on
              > this
              > is supposed to be forthcoming by this fall...As I said in my previous
              > post,
              > let's continue to support what is an on-going and so far successful return
              > of service on this picturesque mountain railroad...Keith Maloney,
              > Syracuse,
              > NY
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Chris Granger" <chris.granger@...>
              > To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:33 AM
              > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
              >
              >
              >> The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn Central
              >> was
              >> in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake Placid to
              >> Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them. I don't know
              >> how much was removed but Michael Kudish documented that track was indeed
              >> removed. You will find that in his updated version of Where Did The
              >> Tracks
              >> Go in the 1996 release called Adirondack Railroads - A History and now
              >> THAT
              >> has been updated as a four volume set called Mountain Railroads of New
              >> York
              >> State (only Vol. 1 was released so far). Michael and I had long
              >> conversations on the Ottawa Division and we talked about the Adirondack
              >> and
              >> Chateaugay lines (latter was a D&H line). He said he was hoping for this
              >> new volume to include exactly which sections between Lake Placid and
              >> Remsen
              >> were removed before NY State took possession.
              >>
              >> Chris
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
              >> To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 8:58 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
              >>
              >>
              >>> Tracks from Utica to Lake Placid were never taken up...Service via
              >>> excursions runs from Utica to Thendara and Carter Sta., on the southern
              >>> end,
              >>> and from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid on the North...A station is being
              >>> rebuilt to original blueprints at Tupper Lake...Maintenance and
              >>> equipment-shifting trains run the entire length of the line at least
              >>> twice
              >>> a
              >>> year...The abandoned portion of the original Utica-Montreal route is
              >>> from
              >>> Lake Clear Jct. between Tupper Lake and Saranac Lake, North to Malone
              >>> and
              >>> hence over the border to Montreal...For more information on all of this
              >>> see:
              >>> Adirondack Scenic Railroad website, plus the book Where Did The Tracks
              >>> Go?,
              >>> by Michael J. Kudish...Riding the line between Utica and Thendara/Old
              >>> Forge
              >>> during the summer is a delight, with retro late '30s-style NYC-type
              >>> coaches,
              >>> and much Alco power!...Enjoy it this summer if you can!...Keith Maloney
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> --
              >> No virus found in this incoming message.
              >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              >> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/780 - Release Date: 4/29/2007
              >> 6:30 AM
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/780 - Release Date: 4/29/2007
              > 6:30 AM
              >
              >
            • Chris Granger
              It came through to me server ok, Keith. Chris ... From: Keith F. Maloney To: Sent:
              Message 6 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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                It came through to me server ok, Keith.

                Chris

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
                To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:30 PM
                Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


                > Didn't go thru as reply--trying again--KM...
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
                > To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:22 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                >
                >
                >> Ok, I stand corrected on the historical track-removal details...The plain
                >> facts more recently, are: Thanks to dozens of dedicated area residents,
                >> and very hard-working professional railroader volunteers, "retro"
                >> excursion
                >> trains are running on tracks that years ago were full of rust 365 days a
                >> year...As we discuss these relatively minor points, the Adirondack
                >> Scenic RR plans to expand northward, sooner rather than later...Info on
                >> this
                >> is supposed to be forthcoming by this fall...As I said in my previous
                >> post,
                >> let's continue to support what is an on-going and so far successful
                >> return
                >> of service on this picturesque mountain railroad...Keith Maloney,
                >> Syracuse,
                >> NY
              • Keith F. Maloney
                Thanks Chris--BTW, I was born in Forestport in 39, lived in Buffalo Head during the war, and have been near the Adirondack Division off and on since then...If
                Message 7 of 27 , May 1, 2007
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                  Thanks Chris--BTW, I was born in Forestport in '39, lived in Buffalo Head
                  during the war, and have been near the Adirondack Division off and on since
                  then...If you are the person I'm thinking of, you run the Ottawa Div.
                  website, right???...Keith M., Syracuse, NY
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Chris Granger" <chris.granger@...>
                  To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:39 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


                  > It came through to me server ok, Keith.
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
                  > To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:30 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                  >
                  >
                  >> Didn't go thru as reply--trying again--KM...
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
                  >> To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:22 PM
                  >> Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> Ok, I stand corrected on the historical track-removal details...The
                  >>> plain
                  >>> facts more recently, are: Thanks to dozens of dedicated area
                  >>> residents,
                  >>> and very hard-working professional railroader volunteers, "retro"
                  >>> excursion
                  >>> trains are running on tracks that years ago were full of rust 365 days a
                  >>> year...As we discuss these relatively minor points, the Adirondack
                  >>> Scenic RR plans to expand northward, sooner rather than later...Info on
                  >>> this
                  >>> is supposed to be forthcoming by this fall...As I said in my previous
                  >>> post,
                  >>> let's continue to support what is an on-going and so far successful
                  >>> return
                  >>> of service on this picturesque mountain railroad...Keith Maloney,
                  >>> Syracuse,
                  >>> NY
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/780 - Release Date: 4/29/2007
                  > 6:30 AM
                  >
                  >
                • Chris Granger
                  Yep, the Ottawa Division is my baby. Grew up beside it, mother still lives there and my family use to work it. I was born a few decades too late to see it in
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 2, 2007
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                    Yep, the Ottawa Division is my baby. Grew up beside it, mother still lives
                    there and my family use to work it. I was born a few decades too late to
                    see it in operation. Have you seen the new design of my site that was
                    relaunched last month?

                    www.nyc-ottawadivision.com

                    Chris

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
                    To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:44 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


                    > Thanks Chris--BTW, I was born in Forestport in '39, lived in Buffalo Head
                    > during the war, and have been near the Adirondack Division off and on
                    > since
                    > then...If you are the person I'm thinking of, you run the Ottawa Div.
                    > website, right???...Keith M., Syracuse, NY
                  • Keith F. Maloney
                    Chris--Nice redesign on your site...Something that needed to be done, and you did it nicely...I remember crossing over to Cornwall or vice-versa, in the early
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 2, 2007
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                      Chris--Nice redesign on your site...Something that needed to be done, and
                      you did it nicely...I remember crossing over to Cornwall or vice-versa, in
                      the early '50s, with my parents on a trip to the Seaway, including the
                      boarded r-o-w, which was a bit nerve-racking to a young kid...You may want
                      to check a book that I co-authored, originally in 1972 (five printings so
                      far), called "Rails in the North Woods", by North Country Books, Utica,
                      NY...I did the Lowville & Beaver River portion...That line is currently
                      out-of-service, with the possibility of rail excursion combined with
                      rails/trails, if federal government USDA economic redevelopment grants go
                      through...Word on this is expected in the next few weeks...Keith Maloney,
                      Syracuse, NY...
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Chris Granger" <chris.granger@...>
                      To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:43 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS


                      > Yep, the Ottawa Division is my baby. Grew up beside it, mother still
                      > lives
                      > there and my family use to work it. I was born a few decades too late to
                      > see it in operation. Have you seen the new design of my site that was
                      > relaunched last month?
                      >
                      > www.nyc-ottawadivision.com
                      >
                      > Chris
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Keith F. Maloney" <kfmaloney@...>
                      > To: <abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:44 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                      >
                      >
                      >> Thanks Chris--BTW, I was born in Forestport in '39, lived in Buffalo Head
                      >> during the war, and have been near the Adirondack Division off and on
                      >> since
                      >> then...If you are the person I'm thinking of, you run the Ottawa Div.
                      >> website, right???...Keith M., Syracuse, NY
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/784 - Release Date: 5/1/2007
                      > 2:57 PM
                      >
                      >
                    • Wesrock@aol.com
                      But were any of these actually converted to Trails under the Rails to Trails program? Once they are--with a notice of interim trail use --it s practially
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 2, 2007
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                        But were any of these actually converted to Trails under the Rails to
                        Trails program? Once they are--with a notice of "interim trail use"--it's
                        practially impossible to get approval to turn them back to rail use. It would be
                        interesting to know if ANY have been turned back into active railroad lines.


                        Wes Leatherock
                        wesrock@...
                        wleathus@...

                        In a message dated 4/30/07 10:29:04 PM Central Daylight Time,
                        hornfroglooking@... writes:

                        > The whole Dallas Area Rapid Transit system (DART) is being built on all of
                        > the abandoned rail line that lead into Dallas. The Trinity Railway Express
                        > runs from Dallas to Fort Worth on abandoned Rock Island Lines. The Dallas to
                        > Garland route is the old abandoned Missouri Kansas and Texas line.
                        > www.dart.org
                        > www.trinityrailwayexpress.org
                        > Check it out and come ride the rail routes of yesteryear.
                        > Larry.
                        >
                        > LUIS ALVAREZ <ljalvar@...> wrote:
                        > Can anyone recall a recent case of of a trail or any abondoned
                        > right
                        > of way going back active? Luis




                        **************************************
                        See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Don Kirk
                        What s a shame about it all, is that Congress established the Rails Yo Trails, to Bank the right of way; in case anyone ever wants to use it for rails again.
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 10, 2007
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                          What's a shame about it all, is that Congress established the Rails Yo
                          Trails, to Bank the right of way; in case anyone ever wants to use it
                          for rails again. Rails To Trails made the switch-back rules so
                          difficult, it practically takes an act of congress, a Supreme Court
                          ruling; and a drunk or stoned RTT exec to approve it back to rails.

                          Don
                        • mjacula@telus.net
                          And here in Canada, it s too easy for the rail companies (except for in the provice of Quebec) to sell the land off and rip out the rails on abandoned lines.
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 11, 2007
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                            And here in Canada, it's too easy for the rail companies (except for in the
                            provice of Quebec) to sell the land off and rip out the rails on abandoned
                            lines. There's no protection for the right of ways here up north.

                            Both countries need laws that are in the "middle" of their current laws.


                            Mike


                            Quoting Don Kirk <donkirk@...>:

                            > What's a shame about it all, is that Congress established the Rails Yo
                            > Trails, to Bank the right of way; in case anyone ever wants to use it
                            > for rails again. Rails To Trails made the switch-back rules so
                            > difficult, it practically takes an act of congress, a Supreme Court
                            > ruling; and a drunk or stoned RTT exec to approve it back to rails.
                            >
                            > Don
                          • rbhubbell
                            Can someone clarify the fine legal points here? The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a process of governmental acquisition of
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 29, 2007
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                              Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                              The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                              process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                              been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                              came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                              Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                              It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                              abandonment.
                              My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                              what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                              discontinuance of service, say)?
                              Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                              operation?
                              What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                              interchange service?
                              Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the answers?
                              BH


                              --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Granger"
                              <chris.granger@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                              Central was
                              > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                              Placid to
                              > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.
                            • Carolynn
                              Maybe you can find something at www.americantrails.org/resources/index.html or www.railstrails.org Let us know if you strike out at these sites, and we ll keep
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 29, 2007
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                                Maybe you can find something at
                                www.americantrails.org/resources/index.html
                                or
                                www.railstrails.org

                                Let us know if you strike out at these sites, and we'll keep looking for your answers.

                                Carolynn



                                rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@...> wrote:
                                Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                                The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                                process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                                been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                                came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                                Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                                It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                                abandonment.
                                My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                                what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                                discontinuance of service, say)?
                                Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                                operation?
                                What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                                interchange service?
                                Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the answers?
                                BH

                                --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Granger"
                                <chris.granger@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                                Central was
                                > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                                Placid to
                                > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.






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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Richard Nichols
                                I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question. There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the abandonments and the
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 29, 2007
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question. There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use. I doin't see that, but I believe
                                  it could happen. To me it would be hard to convert something back to rails when it has been paved over and really used as a recreational trail.

                                  I suppose that the railroad, if it needed the right-of-way very badly, it could start negotiating with the state to buy the right of way back. I like the route that the State of Georgia has taken, and that is bank as many abandoned railroads as posssible to be set aside for future growth. That way you don't have to worry about the trails.

                                  I didn't mean to ramble but that is the best I can do with it. I am sure there are other members of this group can be more specific about this than I have been.

                                  R. Nichols


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@...>
                                  To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:21:57 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS

                                  Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                                  The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                                  process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                                  been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                                  came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                                  Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                                  It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                                  abandonment.
                                  My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                                  what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                                  discontinuance of service, say)?
                                  Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                                  operation?
                                  What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                                  interchange service?
                                  Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the answers?
                                  BH

                                  --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris Granger"
                                  <chris.granger@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                                  Central was
                                  > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                                  Placid to
                                  > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.






                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                  http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • lawnmowermantx
                                  Dear Mr. Nichols, I don t know specifically who handles the abandonment postings, but I do know restoring an abandoned line after it takes place is like
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                    Dear Mr. Nichols,

                                    I don't know specifically who handles the abandonment postings,
                                    but I do know restoring an abandoned line "after" it takes place is
                                    like George W. Bush admitting defeat, and sending the troops back
                                    Home before he leaves office... "ain't gonna happen" lol

                                    Railroad companies got a plate full to worry about... fuel prices
                                    operating expenses, being competitive with truckers, I wonder if all
                                    the diesel locomotives switched to veggie fuel, or alternative non
                                    petroleum fuels on such a grand scale but that alone is extremely
                                    cost prohibitive.

                                    Restoring trails to rails, is as much like myself marrying into a
                                    rich Jewish family, who has a daughter that nobody wants to marry,
                                    but is Rich, Jewish, Orthodox and finds me attractive and willing to
                                    become my wife! (It's a shot in a dark scenario.) I like to read any
                                    postings of Trails becoming Rails if it existed.

                                    Hate to be doubting Tom on this one, living in Texas hampered my
                                    spirits on finding ways to restore railroads long since abandoned. :(
                                    However, if you go to http://google.com Go to maps, and find a town
                                    that "ONCE" had a railroad, see if you can find the right-of-way,
                                    and see what has happened to it. I did, and found sections of R.O.W.
                                    still visible from Satellite mode, where it shows a picture of the
                                    area u are looking at. Zoom in, where u can make out highways, roads
                                    creeks, abandoned right of way.. :) See if that helps u stomping
                                    around on private property. :)

                                    Shalom,

                                    Micha'el D. Lucas
                                    76531


                                    --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, Richard Nichols
                                    <preacher1112@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                    There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                    abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                    the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                    posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                    give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                    concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                    the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                    railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                    to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                    is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                    about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                    may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                    for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use. I doin't see
                                    that, but I believe
                                    > it could happen. To me it would be hard to convert something back
                                    to rails when it has been paved over and really used as a recreational
                                    trail.
                                    >
                                    > I suppose that the railroad, if it needed the right-of-way very
                                    badly, it could start negotiating with the state to buy the right of
                                    way back. I like the route that the State of Georgia has taken, and
                                    that is bank as many abandoned railroads as posssible to be set aside
                                    for future growth. That way you don't have to worry about the trails.
                                    >
                                    > I didn't mean to ramble but that is the best I can do with it. I am
                                    sure there are other members of this group can be more specific about
                                    this than I have been.
                                    >
                                    > R. Nichols
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@...>
                                    > To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:21:57 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                    >
                                    > Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                                    > The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                                    > process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                                    > been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                                    > came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                                    > Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                                    > It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                                    > abandonment.
                                    > My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                                    > what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                                    > discontinuance of service, say)?
                                    > Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                                    > operation?
                                    > What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                                    > interchange service?
                                    > Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the
                                    answers?
                                    > BH
                                    >
                                    > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris Granger"
                                    > <chris.granger@ ...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                                    > Central was
                                    > > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                                    > Placid to
                                    > > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk
                                    for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
                                    today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                    > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Richard Nichols
                                    Michael, I appreciate the reply. I am not disagreeing with your comments. As a matter of fact, you are probably right. I was attempting to answer a specific
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                      Michael, I appreciate the reply. I am not disagreeing with your comments. As a matter of fact, you are probably right. I was attempting to answer a specific question and tell the lady how the abandonments take place. I have read enough of the petitions and decisions to know that STB can pretty much put any conditions on the abandonments that they feel is necessary. I believe in my comment I did say that it could happen, but it appeared to me that it would not happen. Once a trail has been paved and people start using it, I doubt that the STB or the railroad will be able to withstand the outburst and outrage expressed by the trail advocates. However, being the lawyer that I am, I have learned never to say never. Courts are not subject to public opinion.

                                      R.Nichols


                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: lawnmowermantx <imdl7068@...>
                                      To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2007 12:33:24 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS

                                      Dear Mr. Nichols,

                                      I don't know specifically who handles the abandonment postings,
                                      but I do know restoring an abandoned line "after" it takes place is
                                      like George W. Bush admitting defeat, and sending the troops back
                                      Home before he leaves office... "ain't gonna happen" lol

                                      Railroad companies got a plate full to worry about... fuel prices
                                      operating expenses, being competitive with truckers, I wonder if all
                                      the diesel locomotives switched to veggie fuel, or alternative non
                                      petroleum fuels on such a grand scale but that alone is extremely
                                      cost prohibitive.

                                      Restoring trails to rails, is as much like myself marrying into a
                                      rich Jewish family, who has a daughter that nobody wants to marry,
                                      but is Rich, Jewish, Orthodox and finds me attractive and willing to
                                      become my wife! (It's a shot in a dark scenario.) I like to read any
                                      postings of Trails becoming Rails if it existed.

                                      Hate to be doubting Tom on this one, living in Texas hampered my
                                      spirits on finding ways to restore railroads long since abandoned. :(
                                      However, if you go to http://google. com Go to maps, and find a town
                                      that "ONCE" had a railroad, see if you can find the right-of-way,
                                      and see what has happened to it. I did, and found sections of R.O.W.
                                      still visible from Satellite mode, where it shows a picture of the
                                      area u are looking at. Zoom in, where u can make out highways, roads
                                      creeks, abandoned right of way.. :) See if that helps u stomping
                                      around on private property. :)

                                      Shalom,

                                      Micha'el D. Lucas
                                      76531

                                      --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard Nichols
                                      <preacher1112@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                      There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                      abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                      the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                      posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                      give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                      concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                      the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                      railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                      to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                      is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                      about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                      may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                      for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use. I doin't see
                                      that, but I believe
                                      > it could happen. To me it would be hard to convert something back
                                      to rails when it has been paved over and really used as a recreational
                                      trail.
                                      >
                                      > I suppose that the railroad, if it needed the right-of-way very
                                      badly, it could start negotiating with the state to buy the right of
                                      way back. I like the route that the State of Georgia has taken, and
                                      that is bank as many abandoned railroads as posssible to be set aside
                                      for future growth. That way you don't have to worry about the trails.
                                      >
                                      > I didn't mean to ramble but that is the best I can do with it. I am
                                      sure there are other members of this group can be more specific about
                                      this than I have been.
                                      >
                                      > R. Nichols
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@ ...>
                                      > To: abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:21:57 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                      >
                                      > Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                                      > The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                                      > process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                                      > been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                                      > came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                                      > Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                                      > It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                                      > abandonment.
                                      > My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                                      > what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                                      > discontinuance of service, say)?
                                      > Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                                      > operation?
                                      > What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                                      > interchange service?
                                      > Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the
                                      answers?
                                      > BH
                                      >
                                      > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris Granger"
                                      > <chris.granger@ ...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                                      > Central was
                                      > > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                                      > Placid to
                                      > > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Boardwalk
                                      for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
                                      today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                      > http://get.games. yahoo.com/ proddesc? gamekey=monopoly herenow
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >






                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                      Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.
                                      http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • lawnmowermantx
                                      Dear Mr. Nichols, When a R.O.W. goes trail-blazing and of course the issue would be necessity vs practiality (i.e. would the railroad be willing to go
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Mr. Nichols,

                                        When a R.O.W. goes "trail-blazing" and of course the issue would
                                        be necessity vs practiality (i.e. would the railroad be willing to
                                        go through restoring an abandoned R.O.W. when say a business sets up
                                        shop in close proximity and creates a demand for rail service, with
                                        all the usual political handling involved, manage to get some sort of
                                        "imminent domain" in play to make a few contributions, thus going to
                                        court to "reverse" the trail to rail?)

                                        Usually, there would have to be a big industrial bloc, and a big
                                        industrial demand to restore rail service or convert the rail-trail
                                        to highway grade for 18-wheelers to travel on. That's a wild
                                        perspective? :)

                                        Shalom
                                        Micha'el D. Lucas
                                        76531

                                        --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, Richard Nichols
                                        <preacher1112@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Michael, I appreciate the reply. I am not disagreeing with your
                                        comments. As a matter of fact, you are probably right. I was
                                        attempting to answer a specific question and tell the lady how the
                                        abandonments take place. I have read enough of the petitions and
                                        decisions to know that STB can pretty much put any conditions on the
                                        abandonments that they feel is necessary. I believe in my comment I
                                        did say that it could happen, but it appeared to me that it would not
                                        happen. Once a trail has been paved and people start using it, I
                                        doubt that the STB or the railroad will be able to withstand the
                                        outburst and outrage expressed by the trail advocates. However,
                                        being the lawyer that I am, I have learned never to say never. Courts
                                        are not subject to public opinion.
                                        >
                                        > R.Nichols
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: lawnmowermantx <imdl7068@...>
                                        > To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2007 12:33:24 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                        >
                                        > Dear Mr. Nichols,
                                        >
                                        > I don't know specifically who handles the abandonment postings,
                                        > but I do know restoring an abandoned line "after" it takes place is
                                        > like George W. Bush admitting defeat, and sending the troops back
                                        > Home before he leaves office... "ain't gonna happen" lol
                                        >
                                        > Railroad companies got a plate full to worry about... fuel prices
                                        > operating expenses, being competitive with truckers, I wonder if all
                                        > the diesel locomotives switched to veggie fuel, or alternative non
                                        > petroleum fuels on such a grand scale but that alone is extremely
                                        > cost prohibitive.
                                        >
                                        > Restoring trails to rails, is as much like myself marrying into a
                                        > rich Jewish family, who has a daughter that nobody wants to marry,
                                        > but is Rich, Jewish, Orthodox and finds me attractive and willing to
                                        > become my wife! (It's a shot in a dark scenario.) I like to read any
                                        > postings of Trails becoming Rails if it existed.
                                        >
                                        > Hate to be doubting Tom on this one, living in Texas hampered my
                                        > spirits on finding ways to restore railroads long since abandoned. :(
                                        > However, if you go to http://google. com Go to maps, and find a town
                                        > that "ONCE" had a railroad, see if you can find the right-of-way,
                                        > and see what has happened to it. I did, and found sections of R.O.W.
                                        > still visible from Satellite mode, where it shows a picture of the
                                        > area u are looking at. Zoom in, where u can make out highways, roads
                                        > creeks, abandoned right of way.. :) See if that helps u stomping
                                        > around on private property. :)
                                        >
                                        > Shalom,
                                        >
                                        > Micha'el D. Lucas
                                        > 76531
                                        >
                                        > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard Nichols
                                        > <preacher1112@ ...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                        > There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                        > abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                        > the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                        > posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                        > give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                        > concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                        > the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                        > railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                        > to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                        > is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                        > about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                        > may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                        > for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use. I doin't see
                                        > that, but I believe
                                        > > it could happen. To me it would be hard to convert something back
                                        > to rails when it has been paved over and really used as a recreational
                                        > trail.
                                        > >
                                        > > I suppose that the railroad, if it needed the right-of-way very
                                        > badly, it could start negotiating with the state to buy the right of
                                        > way back. I like the route that the State of Georgia has taken, and
                                        > that is bank as many abandoned railroads as posssible to be set aside
                                        > for future growth. That way you don't have to worry about the trails.
                                        > >
                                        > > I didn't mean to ramble but that is the best I can do with it. I am
                                        > sure there are other members of this group can be more specific about
                                        > this than I have been.
                                        > >
                                        > > R. Nichols
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@ ...>
                                        > > To: abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com
                                        > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:21:57 AM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                        > >
                                        > > Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                                        > > The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                                        > > process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                                        > > been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                                        > > came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                                        > > Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                                        > > It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                                        > > abandonment.
                                        > > My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                                        > > what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                                        > > discontinuance of service, say)?
                                        > > Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                                        > > operation?
                                        > > What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                                        > > interchange service?
                                        > > Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the
                                        > answers?
                                        > > BH
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris Granger"
                                        > > <chris.granger@ ...> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                                        > > Central was
                                        > > > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                                        > > Placid to
                                        > > > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                        _Boardwalk
                                        > for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
                                        > today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                        > > http://get.games. yahoo.com/ proddesc? gamekey=monopoly herenow
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                        > Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security
                                        of spyware protection.
                                        > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Richard Nichols
                                        Michael, it will take someone much wiser and more experienced in railroad matters than I to give a speicific answer to your question. I am sure that businesses
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Michael, it will take someone much wiser and more experienced in railroad matters than I to give a speicific answer to your question. I am sure that businesses seeking to locate in a community would select a site in that community that already has rail access, or could get rail access easily. Rail access is a strong consideration in the location/relocation of a manufacturing business. It would really have to a a very unusual and rare situation for a railroad to go through the process of reacquiring rights-of-way for one new business. Remember, allegedly the right-of-way was abandoned in the first place becasue there was not enough business on the line to justify keeping the line. The reason for short lines is to service business on existing lines with used equipment and smaller trains, and many times infrequent runs. Some other members of this group could probably give you an example of conversion from trail back to working railroad. But it is rare.

                                          Hope this answered your question.
                                          R. Nichols


                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: lawnmowermantx <imdl7068@...>
                                          To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, June 8, 2007 7:27:32 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS

                                          Dear Mr. Nichols,

                                          When a R.O.W. goes "trail-blazing" and of course the issue would
                                          be necessity vs practiality (i.e. would the railroad be willing to
                                          go through restoring an abandoned R.O.W. when say a business sets up
                                          shop in close proximity and creates a demand for rail service, with
                                          all the usual political handling involved, manage to get some sort of
                                          "imminent domain" in play to make a few contributions, thus going to
                                          court to "reverse" the trail to rail?)

                                          Usually, there would have to be a big industrial bloc, and a big
                                          industrial demand to restore rail service or convert the rail-trail
                                          to highway grade for 18-wheelers to travel on. That's a wild
                                          perspective? :)

                                          Shalom
                                          Micha'el D. Lucas
                                          76531

                                          --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard Nichols
                                          <preacher1112@ ...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Michael, I appreciate the reply. I am not disagreeing with your
                                          comments. As a matter of fact, you are probably right. I was
                                          attempting to answer a specific question and tell the lady how the
                                          abandonments take place. I have read enough of the petitions and
                                          decisions to know that STB can pretty much put any conditions on the
                                          abandonments that they feel is necessary. I believe in my comment I
                                          did say that it could happen, but it appeared to me that it would not
                                          happen. Once a trail has been paved and people start using it, I
                                          doubt that the STB or the railroad will be able to withstand the
                                          outburst and outrage expressed by the trail advocates. However,
                                          being the lawyer that I am, I have learned never to say never. Courts
                                          are not subject to public opinion.
                                          >
                                          > R.Nichols
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message ----
                                          > From: lawnmowermantx <imdl7068@.. .>
                                          > To: abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com
                                          > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2007 12:33:24 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                          >
                                          > Dear Mr. Nichols,
                                          >
                                          > I don't know specifically who handles the abandonment postings,
                                          > but I do know restoring an abandoned line "after" it takes place is
                                          > like George W. Bush admitting defeat, and sending the troops back
                                          > Home before he leaves office... "ain't gonna happen" lol
                                          >
                                          > Railroad companies got a plate full to worry about... fuel prices
                                          > operating expenses, being competitive with truckers, I wonder if all
                                          > the diesel locomotives switched to veggie fuel, or alternative non
                                          > petroleum fuels on such a grand scale but that alone is extremely
                                          > cost prohibitive.
                                          >
                                          > Restoring trails to rails, is as much like myself marrying into a
                                          > rich Jewish family, who has a daughter that nobody wants to marry,
                                          > but is Rich, Jewish, Orthodox and finds me attractive and willing to
                                          > become my wife! (It's a shot in a dark scenario.) I like to read any
                                          > postings of Trails becoming Rails if it existed.
                                          >
                                          > Hate to be doubting Tom on this one, living in Texas hampered my
                                          > spirits on finding ways to restore railroads long since abandoned. :(
                                          > However, if you go to http://google. com Go to maps, and find a town
                                          > that "ONCE" had a railroad, see if you can find the right-of-way,
                                          > and see what has happened to it. I did, and found sections of R.O.W.
                                          > still visible from Satellite mode, where it shows a picture of the
                                          > area u are looking at. Zoom in, where u can make out highways, roads
                                          > creeks, abandoned right of way.. :) See if that helps u stomping
                                          > around on private property. :)
                                          >
                                          > Shalom,
                                          >
                                          > Micha'el D. Lucas
                                          > 76531
                                          >
                                          > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard Nichols
                                          > <preacher1112@ ...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                          > There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                          > abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                          > the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                          > posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                          > give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                          > concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                          > the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                          > railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                          > to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                          > is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                          > about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                          > may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                          > for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use. I doin't see
                                          > that, but I believe
                                          > > it could happen. To me it would be hard to convert something back
                                          > to rails when it has been paved over and really used as a recreational
                                          > trail.
                                          > >
                                          > > I suppose that the railroad, if it needed the right-of-way very
                                          > badly, it could start negotiating with the state to buy the right of
                                          > way back. I like the route that the State of Georgia has taken, and
                                          > that is bank as many abandoned railroads as posssible to be set aside
                                          > for future growth. That way you don't have to worry about the trails.
                                          > >
                                          > > I didn't mean to ramble but that is the best I can do with it. I am
                                          > sure there are other members of this group can be more specific about
                                          > this than I have been.
                                          > >
                                          > > R. Nichols
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message ----
                                          > > From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@ ...>
                                          > > To: abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com
                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:21:57 AM
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                          > >
                                          > > Can someone clarify the fine legal points here?
                                          > > The so-called rails-to-trails law and other legislation provides for a
                                          > > process of governmental acquisition of lines for which abandonment has
                                          > > been approved. In New York State, this is how the Adirondack Railroad
                                          > > came to be owned by the State, the Delaware & Ulster Railride by
                                          > > Delaware County, and the Catskill Mountain Railroad by Ulster County.
                                          > > It was my understanding that such acquisition occurs prior to actual
                                          > > abandonment.
                                          > > My question is this: were these lines legally abandoned, and if so,
                                          > > what is the legal definition of abandonment (as opposed to
                                          > > discontinuance of service, say)?
                                          > > Does it make a difference whether one has to get an STB approval for
                                          > > operation?
                                          > > What steps are required to put such a line back in commercial
                                          > > interchange service?
                                          > > Anyone know the answers to these questions, or where to find the
                                          > answers?
                                          > > BH
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris Granger"
                                          > > <chris.granger@ ...> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The former NYC Adirondack division was abandoned. By 1974, Penn
                                          > > Central was
                                          > > > in the process of lifting the rails from the last section (Lake
                                          > > Placid to
                                          > > > Remsen) when the State of New York stepped in to stop them.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
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                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >





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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • rbhubbell
                                          Here is a partial list or reactivated rail corridors: http://www.americantrails.org/resources/railtrails/rerail04.html Burr Hubbell ... of conversion from
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 9, 2007
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                                            Here is a partial list or reactivated rail corridors:
                                            http://www.americantrails.org/resources/railtrails/rerail04.html
                                            Burr Hubbell

                                            --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, Richard Nichols
                                            <preacher1112@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Some other members of this group could probably give you an example
                                            of conversion from trail back to working railroad. But it is rare.
                                          • rbhubbell
                                            Mr. Nichols: Thanks for your response. If you are interested in abandonments, notice of intent to abandon service generally has to be posted in the Federal
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 9, 2007
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                                              Mr. Nichols:
                                              Thanks for your response. If you are interested in abandonments,
                                              notice of intent to abandon service generally has to be posted in the
                                              Federal Register. Their site is seachable and can be found here:
                                              http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fr/index.html
                                              Entering "railroad abandonment" gives you 40 hits for this year alone.
                                              Burr Hubbell

                                              --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, Richard Nichols
                                              <preacher1112@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                              abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                              the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                              posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                              give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                              concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                              the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                              railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                              to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                              is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                              about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                              may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                              for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use. I doin't see
                                              that, but I believe
                                              > it could happen. To me it would be hard to convert something back
                                              to rails when it has been paved over and really used as a recreational
                                              trail.
                                            • rbhubbell
                                              Dear Mr. Nichols: You really pushed me in the right direction. Another searchable site is the Surface Transportation Board: http://www.stb.dot.gov Their
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 9, 2007
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                                                Dear Mr. Nichols:
                                                You really pushed me in the right direction. Another searchable site
                                                is the Surface Transportation Board: http://www.stb.dot.gov
                                                Their advance search page for filings is here:
                                                http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/AdvancedSearch?OpenForm
                                                Among the option available on filing type are:
                                                "Trail Use Request"
                                                "Trail Use Agreement"
                                                "Trail Use Condition"
                                                Use of these terms will get you a docket number which will in turn
                                                lead to all of the filings in any given proceeding.
                                                Thanks
                                                Burr Hubbell

                                                --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, Richard Nichols
                                                <preacher1112@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                                There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                                abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                                the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                                posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                                give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                                concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                                the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                                railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                                to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                                is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                                about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                                may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                                for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use.
                                              • Richard Nichols
                                                Burr, I am glad that you were able to get educated on your question of trails being activated to rails. As I said in my answer to you, there are smarter people
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 9, 2007
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                                                  Burr, I am glad that you were able to get educated on your question of trails being activated to rails. As I said in my answer to you, there are smarter people in this group than I. In trying to maintain a business, I can't keep with all the web sites necessary to have the answers. Ny information has come from this group. I have found if you really want an answer to a question about railroads, someone here will have an answer or suggestion. Oh, by the way, on of the web sites you referred to in your post showed me that one of the railroads in sourhwest Georgia is converting from a banked rail line to a now working freight line. Makes you wonder why they were abandoned in the first place.

                                                  R. Nichols


                                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                                  From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@...>
                                                  To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 10:15:04 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS

                                                  Dear Mr. Nichols:
                                                  You really pushed me in the right direction. Another searchable site
                                                  is the Surface Transportation Board: http://www.stb dot.gov
                                                  Their advance search page for filings is here:
                                                  http://www.stb dot.gov/filings/ all.nsf/Advanced Search?OpenForm
                                                  Among the option available on filing type are:
                                                  "Trail Use Request"
                                                  "Trail Use Agreement"
                                                  "Trail Use Condition"
                                                  Use of these terms will get you a docket number which will in turn
                                                  lead to all of the filings in any given proceeding.
                                                  Thanks
                                                  Burr Hubbell

                                                  --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard Nichols
                                                  <preacher1112@ ...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                                  There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                                  abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                                  the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                                  posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                                  give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                                  concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                                  the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                                  railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                                  to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                                  is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                                  about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                                  may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                                  for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use.






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                                                • lawnmowermantx
                                                  Dear Folx, Thank you so much group members for this! I too not totally learned in railroad affairs only get information from Google, and search engines,
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                                    Dear Folx,

                                                    Thank you so much group members for this! I too not totally
                                                    learned in 'railroad affairs' only get information from Google,
                                                    and search engines, coupled with this group with posted links! I
                                                    realize as a resident of Hamilton, TX (76531) The St Louis and
                                                    Southwestern, acquired the Stephenville Texas North and South,
                                                    which had acquired the Gates' Family railroad back in 1909 after
                                                    the Leon River flooded thus forcing the Gates' family (not kin to
                                                    Bill Gates? lol) to sell out, and from 1910 to 1941 endured a rich
                                                    colorful existence, till the then I.C.C. shut down the Hamilton to
                                                    Comanche branch, making part of the R.O.W. into now State Highway
                                                    36 just 1 to 3 miles west of Lamkin, TX shutting down Springtown,
                                                    TX and leaving behind a "cut" where the rails used to be. There is
                                                    something of interest during this time and still exists from a
                                                    Google Map Hybrid Satellite image, of what I call a "Stethescope"
                                                    or to rail experts as a "WYE" still visible after all these years.
                                                    Most of the R.O.W. still stands now "melted" after rains, and hard
                                                    weathering, the "WYE" sits somewhere on private property without any
                                                    legal access or legal permission, you might get shot! :(

                                                    The "COTTON BELT" line was connected via spur rails of the cheap
                                                    rail grade, usually second hand rail. By 1930's the cotton crop had
                                                    took a hit, thus destroying continuance of rail service. By January
                                                    1941, the last 33 mile run from Hamilton to Gatesville, TX was tore
                                                    up, and since 1941 the R.O.W. remained to the elements, and thus
                                                    bulldozed or converted into fields. Satellite images reveal 49% of
                                                    the R.O.W. still is visible, yet with a skilled eye can make out the
                                                    rest of the R.O.W. where crops now grow. Interesting to note, the
                                                    citizens of West Central Texas: (Comanche, Hamilton, Erath, Coryell
                                                    and McClennan County) did little to nothing to rally alternative uses
                                                    of possible commuter rail service, Farmer C.O.O.P to ship farm
                                                    equipment and provide a light rail rural commuter service. Since by
                                                    1941 and beyond, the MKT had still remained in tact from Breckenridge
                                                    to Waco up until 1969? Business politics and trucking companies all
                                                    appeared like vultures on a dying carcass with improved roads and
                                                    highways eventually and totally overpowered rail arguments and thus
                                                    wiping out hope of restoration.

                                                    State Highway 36 from Jonesboro, TX to Gatesville, TX Still is a
                                                    dangerous piece of highway due to poor design, and NO passing lanes
                                                    for excessive traffic. With pitiful shoulder width, and apparently
                                                    well timed double stripe, and passing access with on coming traffic
                                                    had the railroad stay in business and offered alternative commuter
                                                    traffic for local residents and or shipping farm equipment on rail
                                                    instead of congesting traffic to a crawl, I'm sure light rail and
                                                    commuter / equipment shipping capability would help ease congestion
                                                    to heavily congested areas. I was amazed to see a 9 year old boy drive
                                                    his dad's dualie truck while dad drove a road grader at 12 miles per
                                                    hour! LOL

                                                    Converting a trail back to rail would possibly be well justified
                                                    if the business, government and railroad company saw the profit. If
                                                    not, it won't. Today, with profit taking over the human factor, and
                                                    basically if you aren't making money, you ARE nothing railroad's have
                                                    plenty to lose if profits don't permit it. With high income comes
                                                    high risks and responsibility. When a line goes down, to be banked or
                                                    abandoned its an indicator layoff looms ahead, or downsizing is
                                                    around the corner. This IS a Profit driven society, and if it don't
                                                    make money, then don't waste money. Railroads have to contend and
                                                    contemplate if resurrecting a 'dead' line would be worth the money
                                                    or not. From a business prospective, if I saw or was privy to see a
                                                    big profit margin and gain of income and everyone agreed that the old
                                                    R.O.W. can make money for me, I'll take the risk, if the R.O.W. is
                                                    going to cost more to bring up to code vs building a new line, then
                                                    I'll be building a new line. It's all about money, profit, gain,
                                                    profit, money, gain, greed, money, greed, profit, gain, money,
                                                    wealth, prosperity, wealth, money, greed, profit. Did I forget
                                                    something? LOL :)

                                                    If you take a CLASS I railroad company and break it down from
                                                    the Stockholders to the lowest paid grunt on the field, and do the
                                                    math, with equipment, supplies, plus training, upgrading to Federal
                                                    Regulation, Union Requirements and payroll and if the line don't
                                                    make justify itself, that would be like giving money to your wife
                                                    who makes you sleep on the sofa, and gives you nothing but heartache
                                                    down the road. (mind you, she might be seeing someone else.. lol)

                                                    In all business and pleasure, profits and income must meet the
                                                    accounting department guidelines, and if the industry goes bust,
                                                    so does the rail line. (Cause and Effect, "I drank excess wine, and
                                                    I have to piss." Matrix Reloaded Merovingian.)


                                                    For a Trail to be a Rail again, it would have to have justification,
                                                    and permission to make it happen. Industry and Demand for the
                                                    restoration would have to be justified financially.

                                                    (mind you all, the old R.O.W. in Hamilton county would make a great
                                                    trail to explore the rugged area, since most of Hamilton county is
                                                    between the desert and rich fertile fields of Central Texas. West of
                                                    U.S. 281 most of Hamilton is hilly, and rugged, while East of U.S.
                                                    281 is mainly smoother, grassier and fertile. ) Something to
                                                    consider converting the old R.O.W. into a rugged Texas Rail To Trail
                                                    route! :)

                                                    Shalom,

                                                    Micha'el D. Lucas
                                                    76531

                                                    (By the way, forgive my bloviation)




                                                    --- In abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com, Richard Nichols
                                                    <preacher1112@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Burr, I am glad that you were able to get educated on your question
                                                    of trails being activated to rails. As I said in my answer to you,
                                                    there are smarter people in this group than I. In trying to maintain a
                                                    business, I can't keep with all the web sites necessary to have the
                                                    answers. Ny information has come from this group. I have found if you
                                                    really want an answer to a question about railroads, someone here will
                                                    have an answer or suggestion. Oh, by the way, on of the web sites you
                                                    referred to in your post showed me that one of the railroads in
                                                    sourhwest Georgia is converting from a banked rail line to a now
                                                    working freight line. Makes you wonder why they were abandoned in the
                                                    first place.
                                                    >
                                                    > R. Nichols
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                                    > From: rbhubbell <BurrHubbell@...>
                                                    > To: abandonedrailroadsoftheus@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 10:15:04 AM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [Abandoned Railroads of the US] TRAILS TO RAILS
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Mr. Nichols:
                                                    > You really pushed me in the right direction. Another searchable site
                                                    > is the Surface Transportation Board: http://www.stb dot.gov
                                                    > Their advance search page for filings is here:
                                                    > http://www.stb dot.gov/filings/ all.nsf/Advanced Search?OpenForm
                                                    > Among the option available on filing type are:
                                                    > "Trail Use Request"
                                                    > "Trail Use Agreement"
                                                    > "Trail Use Condition"
                                                    > Use of these terms will get you a docket number which will in turn
                                                    > lead to all of the filings in any given proceeding.
                                                    > Thanks
                                                    > Burr Hubbell
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In abandonedrailroadso ftheus@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard Nichols
                                                    > <preacher1112@ ...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I was hoping someone else would give you an aswer to this question.
                                                    > There is a member of this group that used to keep us advised of the
                                                    > abandonments and the petitions that were filed and the hearings and
                                                    > the orders issued. From those posts, and I wonder why he ever stopped
                                                    > posting them, because I learned more of the way the STB works. They
                                                    > give ample opportunity for public input and for any other comments
                                                    > concernining abandonments. If there is a proposal for a trail during
                                                    > the time for input on the abandonments, then the STB tries to get the
                                                    > railroad to do that, if the price is a problem, try to get the parties
                                                    > to agree. From those petitions and the orders issued from the STB it
                                                    > is my considered opinion that the STB has the authority to do just
                                                    > about anything necessary to protect the public interest. Sometimes it
                                                    > may be a trail and they, I suppose could order that there be a trail
                                                    > for so many years, and it could revert back to rail use.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                    > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                                                    > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
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