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Re: Andy

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  • tharpa2002
    ... ...Nice to have an ideological father figure who was a fairly balanced guy without much of a chip on his shoulder. - Dan Sarris s principal limitation
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 21, 2012
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      --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@...> wrote:

      "...Nice to have an ideological father figure who was a fairly balanced guy without much of a chip on his shoulder." - Dan

      Sarris's principal limitation was his uncompromising hostility to experimental and avant-garde movies. Otherwise, he certainly behaved as a gentleman in the face of some very nasty attacks.

      Richard M
    • Dan Sallitt
      ... It wasn t new to him: some of the French critics felt the same. At the time, it seemed an important part of auteurism to downgrade the avant-garde (with
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 21, 2012
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        >
        > Sarris's principal limitation was his uncompromising hostility to
        > experimental and avant-garde movies.
        >
        It wasn't new to him: some of the French critics felt the same. At the
        time, it seemed an important part of auteurism to downgrade the avant-garde
        (with the special, almost moral appeal that it had to the film
        intelligentsia) and to embrace the narrative cinema. I make an effort
        these days to appreciate non-narrative cinema, but I must admit that I'm
        more or less okay with that original auteurist mandate to elevate narrative
        cinema over non-narrative. - Dan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tharpa2002
        ... At the time, it seemed an important part of auteurism to downgrade the avant-garde (with the special, almost moral appeal that it had to the film
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 21, 2012
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          --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@...> wrote:

          "At the time, it seemed an important part of auteurism to downgrade the avant-garde (with the special, almost moral appeal that it had to the film intelligentsia) and to embrace the narrative cinema..."

          Commercial narrative movies and non-narrative avant-garde never seemed mutually exclusive to me because I first encountered auteurism in FILM CULTURE. The first issue I bought had an article on Hitchcock (the reason I bought it in the first place) by Warren Sonbert a non-narrative filmmaker, and in its pages were articles on Sternberg and Brakhage, reviews by Sarris and an exchange of letters between Sarris and Stephen Gottlieb on TOUCH OF EVIL and other auteurist movies, Herman Weinberg's "Coffee, Brandy and Cigars" with his references to Lubitsch, Strohiem, Welles, Sternberg, Kurosawa and Chaplin, etc.

          For some reason I thought all the contributors were in more or less agreement about the equal value of narrative and non-narrative, but I guess this impression came from Jonas Mekas because he printed what he liked.

          Richard M
          The House of Mirth
        • Dan Sallitt
          ... Sonbert is the non-narrative filmmaker I love best, and I think it s partly because his sensibility was almost a narrative one (and I d say an auteurist
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 21, 2012
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            On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:03 AM, tharpa2002 <tharpa2002@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            > The first issue I bought had an article on Hitchcock (the reason I bought
            > it in the first place) by Warren Sonbert a non-narrative filmmaker
            >

            Sonbert is the non-narrative filmmaker I love best, and I think it's partly
            because his sensibility was almost a narrative one (and I'd say an
            auteurist one): on the level of shot duration and cutting, he seemed
            sensitive to whatever innate narrative the shot might suggest.



            > For some reason I thought all the contributors were in more or less
            > agreement about the equal value of narrative and non-narrative, but I guess
            > this impression came from Jonas Mekas because he printed what he liked.
            >
            > It's certainly interesting that FILM CULTURE hosted American auteurism. I
            suspect part of the reason was that there weren't that many serious film
            journals devoted to mainstream narrative cinema at that point, and that
            auteurism and the avant-garde had in common that they generated serious and
            enthusiastic criticism.

            I recently saw a taped interview with Rohmer where he dismissed the
            avant-garde in terms more brutal than anything I recall Sarris saying. - Dan


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rick S
            ... Well, you can pick up a copy of Politics and Cinema and read Sarris justification for his resistance to the avant-garde. As for myself, well, having to
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 22, 2012
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              > I recently saw a taped interview with Rohmer where he dismissed the
              > avant-garde in terms more brutal than anything I recall Sarris saying. - Dan

              Well, you can pick up a copy of "Politics and Cinema" and read Sarris' justification for his resistance to the avant-garde. As for myself, well, having to suffer the grandiose pretensions of avant-garde undergraduates at SUNY Purchase who regarded themselves as great artistes was enough to turn me off the whole movement.
            • Dan Sallitt
              ... There s always been a funny power dynamic between the avant-garde and the narrative people – probably we should try not to be distracted by such things.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 22, 2012
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                > As for myself, well,
                > having to suffer the grandiose pretensions of avant-garde undergraduates at
                > SUNY Purchase who regarded themselves as great artistes was enough to turn
                > me off the whole movement.

                There's always been a funny power dynamic between the avant-garde and
                the narrative people – probably we should try not to be distracted by
                such things. In the last ten years, I’m pushing myself more and
                finding more and more non-narrative filmmakers whose work I like. But
                I still can’t get rid of the feeling that narrative changes the game
                in amazing and sophisticated ways. - Dan
              • tharpa2002
                ... There s always been a funny power dynamic between the avant-garde and the narrative people...I still can�t get rid of the feeling that narrative changes
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 22, 2012
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                  --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@...> wrote:

                  "There's always been a funny power dynamic between the avant-garde and
                  the narrative people...I still can�t get rid of the feeling that narrative changes the game in amazing and sophisticated ways."

                  Many years ago Fred Camper worked out a theory that tried to unify avant-garde and narrative by finding a common underlying factor that he described as light reflected from a screen. The light can be modified in different ways, starting with relatively simple modifications such as "flicker" films or movies like MOTHLIGHT and TEXT OF LIGHT moving to heavier modifications such as representative images, representative images with sound, with stories, etc.

                  On genre of avant-garde movie that somewhat bridges narrative and non-narrative is the "trance" film like MESHES OF THE AFTERNOON or FRAGMENT OF SEEKING. Then there are the avant-garde narratives of Straub-Huillet.

                  Richard M
                • Rick S
                  I don t know if Koyaanisqatsi qualifies as avant-garde , but it is a feature length non-narrative movie that didn t bore me. And that is the thing -- if a
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 22, 2012
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                    I don't know if "Koyaanisqatsi" qualifies as "avant-garde", but it is a feature length "non-narrative" movie that didn't bore me. And that is the thing -- if a filmmaker can make a genuinely "avant-garde" movie lacking a "story" that can hold my attention for 80 minutes or more, I will celebrate.


                    --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "tharpa2002" <tharpa2002@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@> wrote:
                    >
                    > "There's always been a funny power dynamic between the avant-garde and
                    > the narrative people...I still can�t get rid of the feeling that narrative changes the game in amazing and sophisticated ways."
                    >
                    > Many years ago Fred Camper worked out a theory that tried to unify avant-garde and narrative by finding a common underlying factor that he described as light reflected from a screen. The light can be modified in different ways, starting with relatively simple modifications such as "flicker" films or movies like MOTHLIGHT and TEXT OF LIGHT moving to heavier modifications such as representative images, representative images with sound, with stories, etc.
                    >
                    > On genre of avant-garde movie that somewhat bridges narrative and non-narrative is the "trance" film like MESHES OF THE AFTERNOON or FRAGMENT OF SEEKING. Then there are the avant-garde narratives of Straub-Huillet.
                    >
                    > Richard M
                    >
                  • Dan Sallitt
                    ... The line is so porous - even the most one-sided viewer has to cross it sometimes. A lot of the difference between narrative and non-narrative traditions
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 22, 2012
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                      > On genre of avant-garde movie that somewhat bridges narrative and
                      > non-narrative is the "trance" film like MESHES OF THE AFTERNOON or FRAGMENT
                      > OF SEEKING. Then there are the avant-garde narratives of Straub-Huillet.

                      The line is so porous - even the most one-sided viewer has to cross it
                      sometimes.

                      A lot of the difference between narrative and non-narrative traditions
                      has less to do with the presence or absence of narrative than it does
                      with the influence of totally different film cultures. For instance,
                      when Brakhage scratches the emulsion, he's sort of allying himself
                      with a fine-art tradition in which the celluloid is the medium. But
                      one of the subtle points of the Bazinian revolution, which early
                      auteurism grew out of, is that the true medium of film isn't the
                      emulsion on celluloid, but is rather the ontological realism of the
                      photograph. Like any other gap, this one can be shortened or bridged.
                      But it's a real difference.

                      In a very general way, the avant-garde grew out of various "pure
                      cinema" traditions of the 20s and 30s, and consequently many
                      avant-garde filmmakers still give editing the primacy that comes from
                      it being a film-specific function. Whereas one of Bazin's
                      transformations was a strong advocacy of impure cinema and of the
                      value of relationships between cinema and the older art forms.
                      Editing was therefore downgraded to some extent in post-Bazinian
                      culture. Again, not an either-or thing, but a case of different
                      parentage.

                      My impression is that today's auteurist-influenced young cinephiles
                      have mostly embraced avant-garde filmmaking, and that the generation
                      of auteurists who gave the avant-garde a hard time is passing slowly
                      from this earth. - Dan
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