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Re: Lola Montes Redux

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  • Dan Sallitt
    ... But isn t the German version a restoration of a German release, which Ophuls pere presumably knew about? I haven t seen the current version yet, but I too
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 10, 2008
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      --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
      <jrosenbaum2002@...> wrote:

      > For whatever it's worth, I find the German restoration far superior, at
      > least for the colors (which seem relatively garish in the French
      > restoration). The reason why it can't be shown is Marcel Ophuls, who
      > objects to it not as a restoration but because it's German (I kid you
      > not--he claims his father would never have countenanced a German version
      > of any kind).

      But isn't the German version a restoration of a German release, which
      Ophuls pere presumably knew about?

      I haven't seen the current version yet, but I too really liked the German
      version. In addition to the appealing muting of some of the colors, I
      also recall some more naturalistic uses of sound than in the old version.
      - Dan
    • Richard Modiano
      ... ...The reason why it can t be shown is Marcel Ophuls, who objects to it not as a restoration but because it s German (I kid you not--he claims his father
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 10, 2008
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        --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
        <jrosenbaum2002@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        "...The reason why it can't be shown is Marcel Ophuls, who
        objects to it not as a restoration but because it's German (I kid you
        not--he claims his father would never have countenanced a German
        version of any kind)..."


        The German version can't be shown anywhere?
      • Jonathan Rosenbaum
        ... Apparently not legally--and not for logical or coherent reasons.
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 10, 2008
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          >
          > The German version can't be shown anywhere?

          Apparently not legally--and not for logical or coherent reasons.
        • thebradstevens
          ... superior, at ... who ... kid you ... version ... which ... My recollection is that the German version consists entirely of alternate takes in which many
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 10, 2008
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            --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
            > <jrosenbaum2002@> wrote:
            >
            > > For whatever it's worth, I find the German restoration far
            superior, at
            > > least for the colors (which seem relatively garish in the French
            > > restoration). The reason why it can't be shown is Marcel Ophuls,
            who
            > > objects to it not as a restoration but because it's German (I
            kid you
            > > not--he claims his father would never have countenanced a German
            version
            > > of any kind).
            >
            > But isn't the German version a restoration of a German release,
            which
            > Ophuls pere presumably knew about?
            >

            My recollection is that the German version consists entirely of
            alternate takes in which many (perhaps all) of the actors are
            actually speaking German. Not sure how the fact that Max actually
            shot a German version can be reconciled with Marcel's claim that his
            father would never have even countenanced such a thing - perhaps Max
            was obliged to shoot this version by the financiers.

            Marcel is also apparently insisting that the longer (and, to me,
            vastly superior) 109 minute version of LA RONDE be suppressed.
          • thebradstevens
            I ve only seen two versions of LOLA MONTES. The French version shown by the BBC (108m at 25 fps) and the German version entitled LOLA MONTEZ screened on German
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 10, 2008
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              I've only seen two versions of LOLA MONTES. The French version shown
              by the BBC (108m at 25 fps) and the German version entitled LOLA
              MONTEZ screened on German television (105m 48s at 25 fps). I just
              found the notes I made while comparing the two versions. The most
              significant differences are as follows:

              1- After Lola leaves the ship's dining room, the German version has
              one extra shot showing Lola walking outside the room and looking in
              through the windows.

              2- As Lola tries to leave her first marriage, the French version
              cuts into close-up for the line "Anything but this", whereas the
              German version stays in long shot.

              3- The doctor's visit to the manager/clown runs the same length in
              both versions, but the editing is different, with the German version
              including several additional shots (for example, the shot of the
              clown putting on his jacket is interrupted by a shot taken from a
              different angle).

              4- When we return to the circus after the Bavarian section, the
              scene with the doctor in the clown's office has two extra shots at
              the start: these show the clown pouring money out of a Lola mug, and
              one additional line from the doctor.

              5- In the German version, the dissolve from the penultimate shot to
              the final shot has been replaced with a cut.
            • jess_l_amortell
              ... The German (Droessler) restoration has a longer, uninterrupted track back from Lola, with (as I recall) no cut or dissolve, and the voices of the crowd
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 11, 2008
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                --- <bradstevens22@...> wrote:
                >
                > 5- In the German version, the dissolve from the penultimate shot to
                > the final shot has been replaced with a cut.
                >

                The German (Droessler) restoration has a longer, uninterrupted track
                back from Lola, with (as I recall) no cut or dissolve, and the voices
                of the crowd brought up over the music. Dan Sallitt described it in
                post #7988 here. Even though I need to see the film again (and again)
                in any viable form (though I would prefer not at Film Forum -- can
                they do 2:55?), I'd rather not return to the usual truncated ending --
                in a case like this, I hope it's not asking too much of a review to
                let me know, before plunking down my cash, which version I'll
                encounter at the end of the journey. I did find, in a Criterion forum
                thread earlier this year: "Droessler said that Marcel's restoration
                follows the very same constructional scheme that their version laid
                out, but Marcel simply used other takes and kept it all French."
                However, there then appears to be disagreement on which version of the
                final shot is used.
                http://www.criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?
                t=7464&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

                No doubt somewhere in Film Forum's wealth of links (including a French
                Cinematheque site) the information can eventually be found.
              • david hare
                ... shown ... version ... and ... Brad, in addition to these the Droessler version also contains a longer version of the first flashback sequence with Liszt -
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 16, 2008
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                  --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
                  <bradstevens22@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I've only seen two versions of LOLA MONTES. The French version
                  shown
                  > by the BBC (108m at 25 fps) and the German version entitled LOLA
                  > MONTEZ screened on German television (105m 48s at 25 fps). I just
                  > found the notes I made while comparing the two versions. The most
                  > significant differences are as follows:
                  >
                  > 1- After Lola leaves the ship's dining room, the German version has
                  > one extra shot showing Lola walking outside the room and looking in
                  > through the windows.
                  >
                  > 2- As Lola tries to leave her first marriage, the French version
                  > cuts into close-up for the line "Anything but this", whereas the
                  > German version stays in long shot.
                  >
                  > 3- The doctor's visit to the manager/clown runs the same length in
                  > both versions, but the editing is different, with the German
                  version
                  > including several additional shots (for example, the shot of the
                  > clown putting on his jacket is interrupted by a shot taken from a
                  > different angle).
                  >
                  > 4- When we return to the circus after the Bavarian section, the
                  > scene with the doctor in the clown's office has two extra shots at
                  > the start: these show the clown pouring money out of a Lola mug,
                  and
                  > one additional line from the doctor.
                  >
                  > 5- In the German version, the dissolve from the penultimate shot to
                  > the final shot has been replaced with a cut.

                  Brad, in addition to these the Droessler version also contains a
                  longer version of the first flashback sequence with Liszt - about two
                  minutes longer I believe. OF course, more generally the takes are all
                  different. Even the opening circus tracks in the Droessler with the
                  costumed girls tossing the pins is different (from memory they dont
                  toss the pins at all) and the chandeliers dont rise and fall in the
                  same places! Also the soundtrack for opening and closing credits
                  sounds rough and not cleaned up, although the rest of the movie's
                  track is fine (but two track stereo not four track.)

                  The 109 version of La Ronde is indeed a revelation.
                • Richard Modiano
                  Brad wrote: 4- When we return to the circus after the Bavarian section, the scene with the doctor in the clown s office has two extra shots at the start:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 16, 2008
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                    Brad wrote:

                    "4- When we return to the circus after the Bavarian section, the
                    scene with the doctor in the clown's office has two extra shots at
                    the start: these show the clown pouring money out of a Lola mug,
                    and one additional line from the doctor..."

                    Having just seen the French version last night, this sequence begins
                    with the clown just having finished pouring coins out of the Loa mug.

                    Apparently, most of us will not be able to see the German restoration,
                    so thanks for sharing this list of differences between the two versions.

                    Richard
                  • david hare
                    ... begins ... mug. ... restoration, ... versions.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 17, 2008
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                      --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano" <tharpa2002@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Brad wrote:
                      >
                      > "4- When we return to the circus after the Bavarian section, the
                      > scene with the doctor in the clown's office has two extra shots at
                      > the start: these show the clown pouring money out of a Lola mug,
                      > and one additional line from the doctor..."
                      >
                      > Having just seen the French version last night, this sequence
                      begins
                      > with the clown just having finished pouring coins out of the Loa
                      mug.
                      >
                      > Apparently, most of us will not be able to see the German
                      restoration,
                      > so thanks for sharing this list of differences between the two
                      versions.
                      >
                      > Richard
                      >
                    • david hare
                      C est idiot! Pressed the wrong button. Richard the legal quarantine on the Droessler does not extentd at least to Germany where, for instance it s screened on
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 17, 2008
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                        C'est idiot! Pressed the wrong button.

                        Richard the legal quarantine on the Droessler does not extentd at
                        least to Germany where, for instance it's screened on TV. And from
                        which boots are readily available for download from the usual "Closed
                        Community" sites. I cant name them here for obvious reasons. The
                        quality is AVI/Divx 1 gig but quite acceptable. No subs of course.

                        As for La Ronde, as Brad knows the complete version of this slipped
                        out from the closet some time in the late 80s and played on
                        Australian TV (and possibly) French TV. I cant verify the latter but
                        am in Paris now and will be talking to some people about it next
                        week. Marcel quickly stepped on it locking it back in the cage (with
                        Lola) a couple of years into the 90s, but not before I for one had -
                        quite unwittingly - taped it from SBS TV. Brad I understand is
                        writing something about the differences in the two versions,
                        Marcel's position on the embargo was that the shorter 93 minute cut
                        was Ophuls pere's preferred version. But the additional scenes in the
                        109 minute version, and there are many, are all quite wonderful.
                        Once again I believe it will be up on one of the aforehinted p2p
                        sites before the end of the year.





                        --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano" <tharpa2002@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Brad wrote:
                        >
                        > "4- When we return to the circus after the Bavarian section, the
                        > scene with the doctor in the clown's office has two extra shots at
                        > the start: these show the clown pouring money out of a Lola mug,
                        > and one additional line from the doctor..."
                        >
                        > Having just seen the French version last night, this sequence
                        begins
                        > with the clown just having finished pouring coins out of the Loa
                        mug.
                        >
                        > Apparently, most of us will not be able to see the German
                        restoration,
                        > so thanks for sharing this list of differences between the two
                        versions.
                        >
                        > Richard
                        >
                      • jess_l_amortell
                        ... Just for the record, did Brad s points of comparison between the French & German versions of Lola as seen on TV, refer to earlier release versions, or to
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 17, 2008
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                          > the legal quarantine on the Droessler does not extentd at
                          > least to Germany where, for instance it's screened on TV.

                          Just for the record, did Brad's points of comparison between the
                          French & German versions of "Lola" as seen on TV, refer to earlier
                          release versions, or to the restorations? I assumed the former but
                          see i may have been confused.
                          Thanks
                        • thebradstevens
                          ... My comments refer to an unrestored French version of LOLA shown by the BBC, and an old print screened many years ago on German television (I used to have a
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 17, 2008
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                            --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell" <monterone1@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > > the legal quarantine on the Droessler does not extentd at
                            > > least to Germany where, for instance it's screened on TV.
                            >
                            > Just for the record, did Brad's points of comparison between the
                            > French & German versions of "Lola" as seen on TV, refer to earlier
                            > release versions, or to the restorations? I assumed the former but
                            > see i may have been confused.
                            > Thanks
                            >


                            My comments refer to an unrestored French version of LOLA shown by the
                            BBC, and an old print screened many years ago on German television (I
                            used to have a satellite dish that could pick up several German
                            channels). I haven't yet seen the restorations.
                          • thebradstevens
                            Just returned from a screening of the restored French version of LOLA MONTES at BFI Southbank. There were three moments here that I haven t seen before: 1-
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 9, 2008
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                              Just returned from a screening of the restored French version of LOLA
                              MONTES at BFI Southbank. There were three moments here that I haven't
                              seen before:

                              1- More dialogue near the beginning of the first scene with Liszt, who
                              now remarks that "Dancers usually dance to my tune, rather than I to
                              theirs".

                              2- After Lola leaves the ship's dining room, we now see here return to
                              the dormitory, where a young girl says to her "Going to bed already?
                              Were you naughty?".

                              3- The final scene with Lola in the cage is now a single uninterrupted
                              shot.
                            • Richard Modiano
                              ... Just returned from a screening of the restored French version of LOLA MONTES at BFI Southbank. There were three moments here that I haven t seen
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens" <bradstevens22@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                "Just returned from a screening of the restored French version of LOLA>
                                MONTES at BFI Southbank. There were three moments here that I haven't
                                seen before..."

                                In addition to the three shots described by Brad, I can add that both
                                color and sound were sharper then the 1968-69 restoration.

                                Richard
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