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Bergman & Antonioni (Was:Re: Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007))

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  • peckinpah20012000
    ... twentieth ... As Brad Stevens will soon report, if you think Bergman got it with Paxo of BBC 2 NEWSNIGHT, just wait till he mentions how he treated
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 31, 2007
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      --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Mathieu Ricordi <ricordites@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Quoting Blake Lucas <lukethedealer@...>:
      >
      >
      > > Is there a message here? Something like "The cinema of the
      twentieth
      > > century is dead...get used to it!"
      >
      As Brad Stevens will soon report, if you think Bergman got it with
      Paxo of BBC 2 NEWSNIGHT, just wait till he mentions how he treated
      Antonioni. My visuals are kaput but it was enough just to hear a
      sneering intro about is art cinema really worth watching and an
      average person (obviously carefully selected) going on about some
      peopular piece of junk.

      While media gurus sneer, it is good that a group such as this exists
      to give these past masters the rememberance that they really deserve.

      Tony Williams
    • thebradstevens
      ... The resentment NEWSNIGHT s team felt about having to waste valuable screen time on yet another dead Johnny-Foreign-Trousers director (instead of something
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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        --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
        <peckinpah20012000@...> wrote:
        >
        > As Brad Stevens will soon report, if you think Bergman got it with
        > Paxo of BBC 2 NEWSNIGHT, just wait till he mentions how he treated
        > Antonioni. My visuals are kaput but it was enough just to hear a
        > sneering intro about is art cinema really worth watching and an
        > average person (obviously carefully selected) going on about some
        > peopular piece of junk.
        >

        The resentment NEWSNIGHT's team felt about having to waste valuable
        screen time on yet another dead Johnny-Foreign-Trousers director
        (instead of something 'serious', such as a fluctuation in the stock
        market) was almost palpable. Actually, the piece was partly intended
        as a response to viewer complaints about The Paxman's attitude during
        yesterday's Bergman 'tribute' (one viewer quite rightly described his
        comments as 'barbaric'). The main interviewee was Toby Young, whose
        antipathy towards art-house cinema seemed almost inexplicable:
        presumably he isn't happy with Hollywood's domination of 99 per cent
        of the market, and won't rest until the remaining one per cent has
        been conquered. His main accusation was that art house films were
        elitist: pretty rich, given that Bergman's films dealt with
        such 'elitist' issues as fear of mortality, family life, the
        difficulties of marriage, etc. Whereas it is the Hollywood films
        Young champions which truly speak for elitist values - the values of
        that corporate culture which created them.
      • David Ehrenstein
        ... Toby Young is a truly loathesome Bush/Blair-loving fascist. A cinema that asks one to think think is the enemy of those who insist we must follow the
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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          --- thebradstevens <bradstevens22@...> wrote:


          >
          > The resentment NEWSNIGHT's team felt about having to
          > waste valuable
          > screen time on yet another dead
          > Johnny-Foreign-Trousers director
          > (instead of something 'serious', such as a
          > fluctuation in the stock
          > market) was almost palpable. Actually, the piece was
          > partly intended
          > as a response to viewer complaints about The
          > Paxman's attitude during
          > yesterday's Bergman 'tribute' (one viewer quite
          > rightly described his
          > comments as 'barbaric'). The main interviewee was
          > Toby Young, whose
          > antipathy towards art-house cinema seemed almost
          > inexplicable:
          > presumably he isn't happy with Hollywood's
          > domination of 99 per cent
          > of the market, and won't rest until the remaining
          > one per cent has
          > been conquered. His main accusation was that art
          > house films were
          > elitist: pretty rich, given that Bergman's films
          > dealt with
          > such 'elitist' issues as fear of mortality, family
          > life, the
          > difficulties of marriage, etc. Whereas it is the
          > Hollywood films
          > Young champions which truly speak for elitist values
          > - the values of
          > that corporate culture which created them.
          >

          Toby Young is a truly loathesome Bush/Blair-loving
          fascist. A cinema that asks one to think think is the
          enemy of those who insist we must follow the orders of
          our "betters."



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          that gives answers, not web links.
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        • scotchbrm
          The news of Bergman s passing came as jolt, but the follow-up of Antonioni was pure stab-in-the-heart. These were some of the directors, particularly
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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            The news of Bergman's passing came as jolt, but the follow-up of
            Antonioni was pure stab-in-the-heart. These were some of the
            directors, particularly Antonioni, who formed my visual imagination
            and deepened my appreciation for beauty itself. I am forever indebted
            to the dear friend who guided my initiation into film, back when we
            both were very young. He introduced me to the lyricism of early
            Truffaut, the cinematically dense and muscular playfulness of both
            Godard and Kubrick (no, not equating them), the dream-like meanderings
            of Renais, the intricate near-perfection of Renoir and early Kurosawa
            (again, no equation), and then, for me, the truly mind-blowing
            Antonioni. It was the glacial pace, the way the camera lingered over
            objects until the familiar became abstract, that opened my mind's eye
            to an entirely new dimension of visual awareness. Thank you, B.

            My favorites by Antonioni are L'Eclisse" and "The Passenger." The
            latter plays almost like a symphony for me now.

            Of Bergman, I most enjoyed "Smiles of a Summer Night," "Winter Light,"
            "Shame," "The Silence," "Wild Strawberries," and "The Magician." And
            I found "Face to Face" the most emotionally harrowing of any film I've
            ever seen.

            The near-simultaneous passing of these two drives home how much some
            of us owe, on a personal level, to the great auteurs of the mid-20th
            century.

            SB
          • David Ehrenstein
            You know, the longer I think about it a little of all of us died right along with them. I was very mixed about bergman and loved Antonioni. But over and above
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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              You know, the longer I think about it a little of all
              of us died right along with them. I was very mixed
              about bergman and loved Antonioni. But over and above
              all that I respected them both as genuine film artists
              who didn't treat audiences like a bunch of blithering
              idiots waiting to be conned.

              That's more than just a little something in this sad
              times.

              --- scotchbrm <triglyph@...> wrote:

              > The news of Bergman's passing came as jolt, but the
              > follow-up of
              > Antonioni was pure stab-in-the-heart. These were
              > some of the
              > directors, particularly Antonioni, who formed my
              > visual imagination
              > and deepened my appreciation for beauty itself. I
              > am forever indebted
              > to the dear friend who guided my initiation into
              > film, back when we
              > both were very young. He introduced me to the
              > lyricism of early
              > Truffaut, the cinematically dense and muscular
              > playfulness of both
              > Godard and Kubrick (no, not equating them), the
              > dream-like meanderings
              > of Renais, the intricate near-perfection of Renoir
              > and early Kurosawa
              > (again, no equation), and then, for me, the truly
              > mind-blowing
              > Antonioni. It was the glacial pace, the way the
              > camera lingered over
              > objects until the familiar became abstract, that
              > opened my mind's eye
              > to an entirely new dimension of visual awareness.
              > Thank you, B.
              >
              > My favorites by Antonioni are L'Eclisse" and "The
              > Passenger." The
              > latter plays almost like a symphony for me now.
              >
              > Of Bergman, I most enjoyed "Smiles of a Summer
              > Night," "Winter Light,"
              > "Shame," "The Silence," "Wild Strawberries," and
              > "The Magician." And
              > I found "Face to Face" the most emotionally
              > harrowing of any film I've
              > ever seen.
              >
              > The near-simultaneous passing of these two drives
              > home how much some
              > of us owe, on a personal level, to the great auteurs
              > of the mid-20th
              > century.
              >
              > SB
              >
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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            • peckinpah20012000
              ... Who is Toby Young? I ve never heard of him. The voice-over by Average Viewer on which introduced NEWSNIGHT appeared on the level of I go to the oub,
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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                --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein <cellar47@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Toby Young is a truly loathesome Bush/Blair-loving
                > fascist. A cinema that asks one to think think is the
                > enemy of those who insist we must follow the orders of
                > our "betters."

                Who is Toby Young? I've never heard of him. The voice-over by "Average
                Viewer" on which introduced NEWSNIGHT appeared on the level of "I go to
                the oub, drink 12 pints of lager, go for a curry afterwards, and watch
                Big Brother on telly" really put me off following this story.

                For those in the USA, anti-intellectualism is now common in the BBC
                (Gone are the days they would run all of Louis Malles INDIA and they
                would now scorn at any suggesting of running Rivette's great work on
                BBC 2 which they would have considered, at least, 30 years ago)and,
                David, you're right, a part of us did die this week.

                Tony W.
              • David Ehrenstein
                ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toby_Young ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens.
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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                  --- peckinpah20012000 <peckinpah20012000@...>
                  wrote:


                  > Who is Toby Young? I've never heard of him.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toby_Young






                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                  http://sims.yahoo.com/
                • thebradstevens
                  ... Co-founder of MODERN REVIEW, his main ambition in life would appear to be becoming a Postmodern male equivalent of Julie Burchill - which is really all you
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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                    --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
                    <peckinpah20012000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > ---
                    > Who is Toby Young? I've never heard of him.

                    Co-founder of MODERN REVIEW, his main ambition in life would appear
                    to be becoming a Postmodern male equivalent of Julie Burchill - which
                    is really all you need to know!
                  • peckinpah20012000
                    ... Nuff, said!!! Tony W.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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                      --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens" <bradstevens22@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
                      > <peckinpah20012000@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > ---
                      > > Who is Toby Young? I've never heard of him.
                      >
                      > Co-founder of MODERN REVIEW, his main ambition in life would appear
                      > to be becoming a Postmodern male equivalent of Julie Burchill - which
                      > is really all you need to know!
                      >
                      Nuff, said!!!

                      Tony W.
                    • peckinpah20012000
                      ... Thanks David. Once I thought nobody could be worse than Barry Norman of FILM NIGHT (BBC). Then Jonathan Ross came along. Sometimes (on certain occasions)
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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                        --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein <cellar47@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- peckinpah20012000 <peckinpah20012000@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > > Who is Toby Young? I've never heard of him.
                        >
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toby_Young
                        >
                        Thanks David. Once I thought nobody could be worse than Barry Norman
                        of FILM NIGHT (BBC). Then Jonathan Ross came along. Sometimes (on
                        certain occasions) ignorance is bliss.

                        Tony W
                      • peckinpah20012000
                        ... Dreyer. ... distinction, ... very foreign ... office ... art ... made ... I m sure David Walsh will be re-evaluating both Antonioni and Bergman in a future
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 1, 2007
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                          --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, John Matturri <jmatturr@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yeah, for me its maybe time to re-evaluate Bergman, my own mixed
                          > feelings having to do with seeing him in the massive shadow of
                          Dreyer.
                          > But as that golden age recedes it seems that that kind of
                          distinction,
                          > even if valid, becomes trivial in light of what has followed. A
                          very foreign
                          > idea in a world where film reporting with its emphasis on box
                          office
                          > seems to more belong to an business or sports section than to an
                          art
                          > section. An era is receding indeed. . . Good films are still being
                          made
                          > but . . .
                          >

                          I'm sure David Walsh will be re-evaluating both Antonioni and
                          Bergman in a future World Socialist Web Site article but maybe more
                          from the political than aesthetic angle. Anyway, it should be worth
                          reading.

                          Tony Williams
                        • thebradstevens
                          Does anyone know where I could find English-subtitled copies of Bergman s THIS CAN T HAPPEN HERE and IN THE PRESENCE OF A CLOWN, or Antonioni s LA SIGNORA
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                            Does anyone know where I could find English-subtitled copies of
                            Bergman's THIS CAN'T HAPPEN HERE and IN THE PRESENCE OF A CLOWN, or
                            Antonioni's LA SIGNORA SENZA CAMELIE? Leaving aside a handful of
                            shorts and documentaries, these are the only Bergman and Antonioni
                            films I've never seen.
                          • Michael Brooke
                            ... He was also - for a thankfully extremely short-lived period around 1993 or thereabouts - film critic of The Guardian, which he used as a platform to peddle
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                              --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens" <bradstevens22@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
                              > <peckinpah20012000@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > ---
                              > > Who is Toby Young? I've never heard of him.
                              >
                              > Co-founder of MODERN REVIEW, his main ambition in life would appear
                              > to be becoming a Postmodern male equivalent of Julie Burchill - which
                              > is really all you need to know!
                              >

                              He was also - for a thankfully extremely short-lived period around 1993
                              or thereabouts - film critic of The Guardian, which he used as a
                              platform to peddle his "mainstream English-language good/independent
                              foreign-language rubbish" credo.

                              Not only was this loathsomely philistine in itself (and Young's pieces
                              were typically riddled with the most elementary factual errors), it was
                              also actively damaging, and I like to think that I played at least a
                              small part in getting him fired, when I wrote a heartfelt letter to the
                              paper's then editor Peter Preston (who I knew recognised the value of
                              serious cinema) pointing out that giving this buffoon a high-profile
                              platform was doing measurable harm to the already struggling
                              arthouse/independent sector who were exceptionally reliant on
                              newspapers like the Guardian to write intelligent commentary to
                              compensate for the meagre-to-nonexistent advertising budgets. I don't
                              know if there was a connection (and I'd be astounded if I was the only
                              person to complain), but Young was quietly replaced shortly afterwards.

                              A few years later, Young was made theatre critic of The Spectator, a
                              job for which he was even less qualified, knowing practically nothing
                              about the subject in advance.

                              Michael
                            • peckinpah20012000
                              ... 1993 ... good/independent ... pieces ... was ... a ... the ... of ... profile ... don t ... only ... afterwards. ... a ... nothing ... Quite obviously a
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                                --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Brooke"
                                <michael.brooke@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                > He was also - for a thankfully extremely short-lived period around
                                1993
                                > or thereabouts - film critic of The Guardian, which he used as a
                                > platform to peddle his "mainstream English-language
                                good/independent
                                > foreign-language rubbish" credo.
                                >
                                > Not only was this loathsomely philistine in itself (and Young's
                                pieces
                                > were typically riddled with the most elementary factual errors), it
                                was
                                > also actively damaging, and I like to think that I played at least
                                a
                                > small part in getting him fired, when I wrote a heartfelt letter to
                                the
                                > paper's then editor Peter Preston (who I knew recognised the value
                                of
                                > serious cinema) pointing out that giving this buffoon a high-
                                profile
                                > platform was doing measurable harm to the already struggling
                                > arthouse/independent sector who were exceptionally reliant on
                                > newspapers like the Guardian to write intelligent commentary to
                                > compensate for the meagre-to-nonexistent advertising budgets. I
                                don't
                                > know if there was a connection (and I'd be astounded if I was the
                                only
                                > person to complain), but Young was quietly replaced shortly
                                afterwards.
                                >
                                > A few years later, Young was made theatre critic of The Spectator,
                                a
                                > job for which he was even less qualified, knowing practically
                                nothing
                                > about the subject in advance.
                                >
                                > Michael
                                >
                                Quite obviously a male Julie Burchill whose film criticism in THE
                                SUNDAY TIMES (when Robert Neil edited it before falling out with
                                Rupert Murdoch)represented self-opinionated rubbish. It is sad to
                                know they found nobody to replace Derek Malcolm. However, he does
                                seem to parallel self-styled "film experts" of the postmodernist
                                movement one finds too often in English Departments, one of whom is
                                now orgasmic about the Spice Girls Reunion since he ran "Spiceworld"
                                in a Irony in the Public Sphere film class along with WAYNES WORLD,
                                DUMB AND DUMBER and their various sequels.

                                Tony W.
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