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Re: [a_film_by] Re: a_film_by

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  • Fred Camper
    Yes, I don t come here to have fun either. I also don t go to films to have fun. There s nothing wrong with fun, but there are other kinds of experiences
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 22, 2007
      Yes, I don't come here to "have fun" either. I also don't go to films to
      "have fun." There's nothing wrong with fun, but there are other kinds of
      experiences in life, and great cinema offers something different.

      In hindsight, most personal insults on this board don't really bother me
      as much as a lot of simple, short posts that go something like, "I liked
      film X, and actor Y was superb playing character Z." I mean, what is
      that sort of thing about, and who cares? I guess others do, but
      unsupportd expressions of likes or dislikes are of no use to me, no more
      than one line death notices about some actor or scriptwriter
      unaccompanied by other commentary.

      In addition to considering the changes that Kevin and I proposed, the
      moderators might want to add a clear statement about banning to the
      Statement of Purpose -- will it be done only after certain warnings, or
      can it just be done anytime. Or what.

      Fred Camper
    • jpcoursodon
      ... formulations) ... If I ever said that (and I easily forget what I said this morning, let alone weeks or months ago) it was said in fun and tongue-in-cheek
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 22, 2007
        --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Jack Angstreich <angstreich@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > And who (besides JP Coursodon whose own illuminating work in
        > "American Directors" belies such facile and philistine
        formulations)
        > says we are "all here to have fun"?


        If I ever said that (and I easily forget what I said this
        morning, let alone weeks or months ago) it was said in fun and
        tongue-in-cheek -- perhaps meaning that "having fun" is just another
        way of saying "being entertained" which is just another way of
        saying "having a fine or great aesthetic experience" -- as Jerry
        Cordoba kept insisting in his Bill Robinson-Bill Shakespeare spiel.
        JPC



        I'm not here to "have fun" and my
        > interest in cinema as an art is not about "fun" but rather the
        > transformation of consciousness. (I think I speak for several
        others
        > here.)

        If such transformation can't be fun, then maybe it's not all that
        worth going through.

        Possibly, the increasing dominance of lyric-quoting and
        > actress-worshipping on this board has encouraged the view
        that "we
        > are all here to have fun"

        There has been no such increasing dominance. If anything, there
        has been a considerable decrease of such sins against seriousness. I
        haven't quoted lyrics in ages (and I never indulged in actress-
        worshipping here or anywhere else -- well, with the possible
        exception for a weakness for Janet Leigh, which I usually refrain to
        express except in private company). So who exactly is this directed
        against except for one person, who, whatever his faults may be, has
        brought enormously to this group in the past, and still does.
        JPC


        and I suppose "fun" is one way to approach
        > film art if one believes audiences are more important to film
        > aesthetics than auteurs; I can only assume that this anti-
        auteurist
        > position is also that of the moderators (as well as that of
        Messrs.
        > Ehrenstein, Dauth, John, Segreda, Edelstein, et al.) In any case,
        > please speak this "Premiere Magazine" pronouncement only for
        yourselves.
        >
        > Jack Angstreich
        >
        > A fine "Off with their heads" speech, Jack. Let's get rid of
        all those impure members and start afresh. All revolutions have
        those insame moments that lead to guillotines and gulags. Well,
        thanks for the compliments anyway. Maybe I won't be sent to the
        gallows after all. JPC
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Jan 22, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Michael Worrall wrote:
        >
        > Note: forwarded message attached.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        _____________________________________________________________________
        ___
        > ____________
        > From: Richard Modiano <tharpa2002@...>
        > Date: January 22, 2007 7:56:28 PM EST
        > To: Michael Worrall <antartaud3@...>
        > Cc: a_film_by-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: a_film_by
        >
        >
        > Well, Michael, the truth is we banned you. Even though you have a
        lot
        > of insight into cinema and have impeccable auteurist bona fides.
        It
        > was a unanimous decision arrived at after much thought. You have
        a
        > short fuse that's easily ignited, and as J-P said, "We're all here
        to
        > have fun," and it's not fun for the moderators to spend a lot of
        time
        > pouring oil on troubled waters.
        >
        > We didn't realize that you hadn't been notified since we thought
        that
        > Yahoo automatically sent a message to that effect. We apologize
        for
        > that. Good luck with your new group.
        >
        > Ruy Gardnier, Aaron Graham, Richard Modiano
        >
        >
        > Michael Worrall <antartaud3@...> wrote:
        > Richard,
        >
        > I noticed that a_film_by no longer appears on My Yahoo
        > Groups listings and when I tried to sign into the
        > group, I was not recognized as a member.
        >
        > I haven't been posting on a_film_by, outside of my
        > error with Brian Charles Dauth and responding to Kevin
        > John's finger pointing and I have actually set up
        > another auteurist group, but I wanted to inquire.
        >
        > Michael
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • jpcoursodon
        ... bother me ... liked ... I must say I completely agree with that (well, what do you know, I agree with Fred Camper!) JPC
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 22, 2007
          --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > In hindsight, most personal insults on this board don't really
          bother me
          > as much as a lot of simple, short posts that go something like, "I
          liked
          > film X, and actor Y was superb playing character Z." I mean, what is
          > that sort of thing about, and who cares?

          I must say I completely agree with that (well, what do you know, I
          agree with Fred Camper!) JPC
        • David Ehrenstein
          ... Four years after the revolution and the old king s execution Four years after I remember how those courtiers took their final bow String up every
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 22, 2007
            --- jpcoursodon <jpcoursodon@...> wrote:


            > >
            > > A fine "Off with their heads" speech, Jack.
            > Let's get rid of
            > all those impure members and start afresh. All
            > revolutions have
            > those insame moments that lead to guillotines and
            > gulags. Well,
            > thanks for the compliments anyway. Maybe I won't be
            > sent to the
            > gallows after all.


            "Four years after the revolution
            and the old king's execution
            Four years after I remember how
            those courtiers took their final bow
            String up every aristocrat
            Out with the priests Let them live on their fat
            Four years after we started fighting
            Marat keeps on with his writing
            Four years after the Bastille fell
            He still recalls the old battle yell
            Down with all of the ruling class
            Throw all the generals out on their arse
            Good old Marat by your side we'll stand or fall
            You're the only one that we can trust at all
            Four years he fought and he fought unafraid
            Sniffing down traitors by traitors betrayed
            Marat in the courtroom Marat underground
            Sometimes the otter and sometimes the hound
            Fight ing all the gentry and fighting every priest
            Businessman the bourgeois the military beast
            Marat always ready to stifle every scheme
            of the sons of the arse licking dying regime
            We've got new generals our leaders are new
            They sit and they argue and all that they do
            Is sell their own colleagues and ride upon their backs

            And jail them and break them and give them all the axe

            Screaming in language that no one understands
            Of the rights that we grabbed with our own bleeding
            hands
            When we wiped out the bosses and stormed through the
            wall
            Of the prison they told us would outlast us all
            Marat we're poor And the poor stay poor
            Marat don't make Us wait anymore
            We want our rights and we don't care how
            We want our revolution now
            Why do they have the gold
            Why do they have the power
            Why why why Do they have the friends at the top
            Why do they have the jobs at the top
            We've got nothing Always had nothing
            Nothing but holes and millions of them
            Living in holes dying in holes
            Holes in our bellies and holes in our clothes
            Marat we're poor And the poor stay poor
            Marat don't make us wait anymore
            Poor old Marat they hunt you down
            The bloodhounds are sniffing all over the town
            Poor old Marat you work til your eyes turn as red as
            rust
            poor old Marat We trust in you ...."



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          • John Matturri
            ... I m tend to be a semi-lurker here but my experience on lists that aren t merely technical / informational suggests that too strong emphasis on purely
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 22, 2007
              > sins against seriousness
              I'm tend to be a semi-lurker here but my experience on lists that aren't
              merely technical / informational suggests that too strong emphasis on
              purely serious focused discussion can at times bog things down. As in
              ordinary social life jokes, gossip, bursts of song, maybe even moderate
              squabbles etc. can act as a social glue that may in the end contribute
              as much to seriousness as disrupt it. There's a good deal of content
              here and stuff that's useful comes in different forms. It's great to get
              an insightful detailed analysis but at the same time an apt David E.
              quip has jarred me into a new understanding of some film or filmmaker.

              j
            • David Ehrenstein
              ... It s great to get ... Merci! You ve made my day. It s impossible to do serious in-depth analysis on a board like this. We can evoke it, refer to it,
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 23, 2007
                --- John Matturri <jmatturr@...> wrote:

                It's great to get
                > an insightful detailed analysis but at the same time
                > an apt David E.
                > quip has jarred me into a new understanding of some
                > film or filmmaker.
                >
                >

                Merci! You've made my day.

                It's impossible to do serious in-depth analysis on a
                board like this. We can evoke it, refer to it,
                suggesst other places that it might be found but
                that's about it. The real value of "a film by" rests
                in our miltifarious exchanges about filmkaers and
                their films.



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              • Jack Angstreich
                Once again, Mr. Ehrenstein presents assertions without arguments or evidence -- what a surprise; no doubt, this will be considered illuminating , along with
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 23, 2007
                  Once again, Mr. Ehrenstein presents assertions without arguments or
                  evidence -- what a surprise; no doubt, this will be considered
                  "illuminating", along with song lyrics, poems, comments on actresses,
                  etc. Several of Fred Camper's long posts, to take one example, belie
                  Mr. Ehrenstein's ignorant assertion.

                  Jack Angstreich







                  On Jan 23, 2007, at 8:55 AM, David Ehrenstein wrote:


                  --- John Matturri <jmatturr@...> wrote:

                  It's great to get
                  > an insightful detailed analysis but at the same time
                  > an apt David E.
                  > quip has jarred me into a new understanding of some
                  > film or filmmaker.
                  >
                  >

                  Merci! You've made my day.

                  It's impossible to do serious in-depth analysis on a
                  board like this. We can evoke it, refer to it,
                  suggesst other places that it might be found but
                  that's about it. The real value of "a film by" rests
                  in our miltifarious exchanges about filmkaers and
                  their films.

                  .





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Ehrenstein
                  This is simply to let you, and the rest of the group, know that I have no intention of crawling into the mud pit with you -- as you obviously desire. ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 23, 2007
                    This is simply to let you, and the rest of the group,
                    know that I have no intention of crawling into the mud
                    pit with you -- as you obviously desire.

                    --- Jack Angstreich <angstreich@...> wrote:

                    > Once again, Mr. Ehrenstein presents assertions
                    > without arguments or
                    > evidence -- what a surprise; no doubt, this will be
                    > considered
                    > "illuminating", along with song lyrics, poems,
                    > comments on actresses,
                    > etc. Several of Fred Camper's long posts, to take
                    > one example, belie
                    > Mr. Ehrenstein's ignorant assertion.
                    >
                    >




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                  • Jack Angstreich
                    Right, David, you already were in the mudpit when you responded to my debunking of your statements on Birth of a Nation with Sez you whiteboy ; why that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 23, 2007
                      Right, David, you already were in the "mudpit" when you responded to
                      my debunking of your statements on "Birth of a Nation" with "Sez you
                      whiteboy"; why that is considered acceptable, let alone
                      intellectually respectable, can only be explained by cultural
                      decline. Once again you demonstrate that you are incapable of
                      arguments and the citing of evidence and can only resort to quips,
                      epithets, and evasions; but this had already been long established in
                      Fred Camper's responses to you.

                      Jack Angstreich





                      On Jan 23, 2007, at 1:55 PM, David Ehrenstein wrote:

                      This is simply to let you, and the rest of the group,
                      know that I have no intention of crawling into the mud
                      pit with you -- as you obviously desire.

                      --- Jack Angstreich <angstreich@...> wrote:

                      > Once again, Mr. Ehrenstein presents assertions
                      > without arguments or
                      > evidence -- what a surprise; no doubt, this will be
                      > considered
                      > "illuminating", along with song lyrics, poems,
                      > comments on actresses,
                      > etc. Several of Fred Camper's long posts, to take
                      > one example, belie
                      > Mr. Ehrenstein's ignorant assertion.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • peckinpah20012000
                      ... films to ... kinds of ... I initially meant to post a humorous response to the above such as Does this mean that Howard Hawks would be banned from this
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 23, 2007
                        --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, I don't come here to "have fun" either. I also don't go to
                        films to
                        > "have fun." There's nothing wrong with fun, but there are other
                        kinds of
                        > experiences in life, and great cinema offers something different.
                        >
                        I initially meant to post a humorous response to the above such
                        as "Does this mean that Howard Hawks would be banned from this group
                        since he described filmaking as "having fun"? But I've since read the
                        last posts on this group and am really sad to find that it is moving
                        away from its initial purpose in providing a forum for debate.

                        Naturally, I regret that the moderators have banned Michael Worrall
                        from this group and wish there had been some other alternative
                        method. "Film as Politics" usually never bans anybody and there have
                        been worse offenders in the past here who have received warnings.

                        Without wishing to diminish the importance of the passionat feelings
                        expressed lately, may I suggest that we now all move on and continue
                        the positive aspects of this particular group and try to "cool it" as
                        one member has suggested? This group is too good to collapse into a
                        mire of unresolvable contradictions.

                        Tony Williams
                      • Jack Angstreich
                        The moderators have stated that they will resign if enough people express dissatisfaction with their (high-handed) actions; if you regret the banning of Mr.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 23, 2007
                          The moderators have stated that they will resign if enough people
                          express dissatisfaction with their (high-handed) actions; if you
                          regret the banning of Mr. Worrall you might profitably request that
                          the decision be reversed. Personally, I don't think they need to
                          resign if they reinstate Michael, but if they do not, then it seems
                          that resignation is a necessity.

                          Jack Angstreich












                          On Jan 23, 2007, at 9:04 PM, peckinpah20012000 wrote:

                          --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes, I don't come here to "have fun" either. I also don't go to
                          films to
                          > "have fun." There's nothing wrong with fun, but there are other
                          kinds of
                          > experiences in life, and great cinema offers something different.
                          >
                          I initially meant to post a humorous response to the above such
                          as "Does this mean that Howard Hawks would be banned from this group
                          since he described filmaking as "having fun"? But I've since read the
                          last posts on this group and am really sad to find that it is moving
                          away from its initial purpose in providing a forum for debate.

                          Naturally, I regret that the moderators have banned Michael Worrall
                          from this group and wish there had been some other alternative
                          method. "Film as Politics" usually never bans anybody and there have
                          been worse offenders in the past here who have received warnings.

                          Without wishing to diminish the importance of the passionat feelings
                          expressed lately, may I suggest that we now all move on and continue
                          the positive aspects of this particular group and try to "cool it" as
                          one member has suggested? This group is too good to collapse into a
                          mire of unresolvable contradictions.

                          Tony Williams

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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