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ZNP is Open

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  • sfbayhooligan
    ... It is an emergency. The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters. Winters are harsh here. Our employees like to go on
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 11, 2013
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      ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

      It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

      Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

      ********************************************


       Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


      The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


        You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



        On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.
    • Jere Hanan
      What a jerk! _____ From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sfbayhooligan@yahoo.com
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2013
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        What a jerk!


        From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sfbayhooligan@...
        Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:44 PM
        To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] ZNP is Open

         

        ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

        It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

        Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

        ********************************************


         Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


        The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


          You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



          On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

      • hwstockman
        Parts of Kolob WERE open -- not everything in Kolob is on NPS land. As for the possible penalties: if folks got in trouble (in Zion Park) and requested SAR,
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2013
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          Parts of Kolob WERE open -- not everything in Kolob is on NPS land.  As for the possible penalties: if folks got in trouble (in Zion Park) and requested SAR, they could have been fined a LOT, and could not depend on park resources to aid in rescue.  


          Maybe I missed some critical part of this conversation, but I certainly did NOT see any comments from Tanya that were offensive.  On the contrary, her prompt reporting on the negotiations saved a weekend trip, and for that I am grateful.



          ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:

          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

          It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

          Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

          ********************************************


           Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


          The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


            You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



            On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.
        • Jeff Schaber
          Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it s hard to believe
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 11, 2013
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            " Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber. "


            Wow! That post is completely uncalled for! I read these boards on a daily basis and have never once felt that way about the info Tanya shares. Making a derogatory remark about someone on a public forum in order to tout  your political opinions is petty and childish. No matter what party you're affiliated with, our government is failing to do their job at the expense of the people and we all have the right to complain about it. But, let's do it in a manner that isn't in line with the same name calling people in Washington.


            On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
             

            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

            It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

            Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

            ********************************************


             Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


            The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


              You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



              On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.




            --
            Jeff Schaber
            ------------------

            Be who you are, say what you feel.
            Because those that mind don't matter
            and those that matter don't mind!

            ~Dr. Seuss~
          • lenlorence
            What an asinine comment. Tanya and others were simply stating the facts concerning the unnecessary pain caused to area businesses by an administration using
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 11, 2013
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              What an asinine comment.  Tanya and others were simply stating the facts concerning the unnecessary pain caused to area businesses by an administration using its power to selectively close parks.  Here in Minnesota, a tour boat company operating from a private dock was prevented from offering cruises on the St. Croix River.  Several weddings which had been booked had to be cancelled because of the callous action of the NPS.  While the tour boat was prevented from operating, other craft were free to use the river. Commercial marinas continued to operate, but the newsworthy cancellation of weddings was planned by the NPS.  Maximum pain to the people was the mandate for this shutdown. 



              ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <jeffschaber@...> wrote:

              " Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber. "


              Wow! That post is completely uncalled for! I read these boards on a daily basis and have never once felt that way about the info Tanya shares. Making a derogatory remark about someone on a public forum in order to tout  your political opinions is petty and childish. No matter what party you're affiliated with, our government is failing to do their job at the expense of the people and we all have the right to complain about it. But, let's do it in a manner that isn't in line with the same name calling people in Washington.


              On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
               

              ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

              It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

              Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

              ********************************************


               Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


              The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.



              --
              Jeff Schaber
              ------------------

              Be who you are, say what you feel.
              Because those that mind don't matter
              and those that matter don't mind!

              ~Dr. Seuss~
            • Marshall Wilson
              sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 11, 2013
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                sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                 

                ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                ********************************************


                 Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                  You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                  On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.


              • glennlray
                To the group moderator, if there is one. Please remove this thread for the following reasons 1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 12, 2013
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                  To the group moderator, if there is one.


                  Please remove this thread for the following reasons

                  1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the post script added to the OP

                  2) The "discussion" is predominantly an ad hominem attack on a fellow group member

                  3) No new information is provided that hasn't already been posted in other threads.


                  With Regards,

                  Glenn




                  ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                  sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                  On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                   

                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                  It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                  Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                  ********************************************


                   Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                  The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                    You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                    On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

                • bodhijoe
                  Yes, we do have moderators on this forum, including me (Joe Braun), Tanya, Bo Beck, Ram, Tom Jones, Mohave Ben, Dean Kurtz, Jeff B, and Shaun V. I ve read this
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 12, 2013
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                    Yes, we do have moderators on this forum, including me (Joe Braun), Tanya, Bo Beck, Ram, Tom Jones, Mohave Ben, Dean Kurtz, Jeff B, and Shaun V.  


                    I've read this entire thread and I don't think it's worth deleting since there are some nuggets of useful information in it, but I'll come to Tanya's defense as well. Nothing Tanya posted was whiny or inappropriate and I agree with her comments and position. I have a lot of friends in the tourism industry in Springdale who basically saw business go from 100% to 5% during the shutdown. Zion National Park means EVERYTHING to businesses in the area and the policies of the federal government down to the implementation and attitudes of local NPS can have great impact. 


                    sfbayhooligan -- Congratulations on being the first pissy thread this group has seen in about a decade. If you don't like our peanut gallery here, move on, play nice, or we'd be happy to ban you. 


                    Now for more pleasant thoughts, I hope that everybody in the area can enjoy the park today! -Joe




                    ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    To the group moderator, if there is one.


                    Please remove this thread for the following reasons

                    1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the post script added to the OP

                    2) The "discussion" is predominantly an ad hominem attack on a fellow group member

                    3) No new information is provided that hasn't already been posted in other threads.


                    With Regards,

                    Glenn




                    ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                    sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                    On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                     

                    ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                    It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                    Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                    ********************************************


                     Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                    The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                      You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                      On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

                  • bodhijoe
                    P.S. Thank you to all who replied to this thread. People standing up to an inappropriate personal attack restores my faith in humanity. ... Yes, we do have
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 12, 2013
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                      P.S. Thank you to all who replied to this thread. People standing up to an inappropriate personal attack restores my faith in humanity.



                      ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      Yes, we do have moderators on this forum, including me (Joe Braun), Tanya, Bo Beck, Ram, Tom Jones, Mohave Ben, Dean Kurtz, Jeff B, and Shaun V.  


                      I've read this entire thread and I don't think it's worth deleting since there are some nuggets of useful information in it, but I'll come to Tanya's defense as well. Nothing Tanya posted was whiny or inappropriate and I agree with her comments and position. I have a lot of friends in the tourism industry in Springdale who basically saw business go from 100% to 5% during the shutdown. Zion National Park means EVERYTHING to businesses in the area and the policies of the federal government down to the implementation and attitudes of local NPS can have great impact. 


                      sfbayhooligan -- Congratulations on being the first pissy thread this group has seen in about a decade. If you don't like our peanut gallery here, move on, play nice, or we'd be happy to ban you. 


                      Now for more pleasant thoughts, I hope that everybody in the area can enjoy the park today! -Joe




                      ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      To the group moderator, if there is one.


                      Please remove this thread for the following reasons

                      1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the post script added to the OP

                      2) The "discussion" is predominantly an ad hominem attack on a fellow group member

                      3) No new information is provided that hasn't already been posted in other threads.


                      With Regards,

                      Glenn




                      ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                      sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                      On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                       

                      ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                      It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                      Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                      ********************************************


                       Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                      The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                        You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                        On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

                    • tanya_o0o
                      Wow! Thanks guys! This poster has reminded me why I detest politics. I rarely feel the need to watch this group because I have not seen childish behavior
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 12, 2013
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                        Wow!  Thanks guys!  This poster has reminded me why I detest politics.  I rarely feel the need to watch this group because I have not seen childish behavior like this here before. 

                        That's what we all need to do  - yes sir ree.  After being in business since 1931 we should just close up shop and go into another line of work.

                        I'm willing!

                        Does anyone have about 6 million extra, so I can pay the bank off and go off and do something else?

                         



                        ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        P.S. Thank you to all who replied to this thread. People standing up to an inappropriate personal attack restores my faith in humanity.



                        ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        Yes, we do have moderators on this forum, including me (Joe Braun), Tanya, Bo Beck, Ram, Tom Jones, Mohave Ben, Dean Kurtz, Jeff B, and Shaun V.  


                        I've read this entire thread and I don't think it's worth deleting since there are some nuggets of useful information in it, but I'll come to Tanya's defense as well. Nothing Tanya posted was whiny or inappropriate and I agree with her comments and position. I have a lot of friends in the tourism industry in Springdale who basically saw business go from 100% to 5% during the shutdown. Zion National Park means EVERYTHING to businesses in the area and the policies of the federal government down to the implementation and attitudes of local NPS can have great impact. 


                        sfbayhooligan -- Congratulations on being the first pissy thread this group has seen in about a decade. If you don't like our peanut gallery here, move on, play nice, or we'd be happy to ban you. 


                        Now for more pleasant thoughts, I hope that everybody in the area can enjoy the park today! -Joe




                        ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        To the group moderator, if there is one.


                        Please remove this thread for the following reasons

                        1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the post script added to the OP

                        2) The "discussion" is predominantly an ad hominem attack on a fellow group member

                        3) No new information is provided that hasn't already been posted in other threads.


                        With Regards,

                        Glenn




                        ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                        sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                        On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                         

                        ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                        It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                        Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                        ********************************************


                         Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                        The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                          You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                          On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

                      • kpig751
                        Tanya, you ll have to cut the hooligan some slack. He s a bit confused. Mixed you up with, of all people, Tonya. The skater who had it in for another skater.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 13, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Tanya, you'll have to cut the hooligan some slack.  He's a bit confused.  Mixed you up with, of all people, Tonya.

                          The skater who had it in for another skater.  See, he heard that she also completed her first book and then when he learned that she hopes to read her second one soon . . . well, he completely lost it.

                           

                           

                          Dumb internet joke.  Sorry.  jeff     



                          ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          Wow!  Thanks guys!  This poster has reminded me why I detest politics.  I rarely feel the need to watch this group because I have not seen childish behavior like this here before. 

                          That's what we all need to do  - yes sir ree.  After being in business since 1931 we should just close up shop and go into another line of work.

                          I'm willing!

                          Does anyone have about 6 million extra, so I can pay the bank off and go off and do something else?

                           



                          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          P.S. Thank you to all who replied to this thread. People standing up to an inappropriate personal attack restores my faith in humanity.



                          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          Yes, we do have moderators on this forum, including me (Joe Braun), Tanya, Bo Beck, Ram, Tom Jones, Mohave Ben, Dean Kurtz, Jeff B, and Shaun V.  


                          I've read this entire thread and I don't think it's worth deleting since there are some nuggets of useful information in it, but I'll come to Tanya's defense as well. Nothing Tanya posted was whiny or inappropriate and I agree with her comments and position. I have a lot of friends in the tourism industry in Springdale who basically saw business go from 100% to 5% during the shutdown. Zion National Park means EVERYTHING to businesses in the area and the policies of the federal government down to the implementation and attitudes of local NPS can have great impact. 


                          sfbayhooligan -- Congratulations on being the first pissy thread this group has seen in about a decade. If you don't like our peanut gallery here, move on, play nice, or we'd be happy to ban you. 


                          Now for more pleasant thoughts, I hope that everybody in the area can enjoy the park today! -Joe




                          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          To the group moderator, if there is one.


                          Please remove this thread for the following reasons

                          1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the post script added to the OP

                          2) The "discussion" is predominantly an ad hominem attack on a fellow group member

                          3) No new information is provided that hasn't already been posted in other threads.


                          With Regards,

                          Glenn




                          ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                          sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                          On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                           

                          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                          It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                          Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                          ********************************************


                           Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                          The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                            You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                            On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

                        • tanya_o0o
                          ~laughing~ I have been known to bonk a few people, but mostly I am harmless. People just don t get it that most small business owe the bank as much or more
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 15, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment

                             ~laughing~   I have been known to bonk a few people, but mostly I am harmless.



                            People just don't get it that most small business owe the bank as much or more than their business is worth.  We can't just walk away.



                            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Tanya, you'll have to cut the hooligan some slack.  He's a bit confused.  Mixed you up with, of all people, Tonya.

                            The skater who had it in for another skater.  See, he heard that she also completed her first book and then when he learned that she hopes to read her second one soon . . . well, he completely lost it.

                             

                             

                            Dumb internet joke.  Sorry.  jeff     



                            ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Wow!  Thanks guys!  This poster has reminded me why I detest politics.  I rarely feel the need to watch this group because I have not seen childish behavior like this here before. 

                            That's what we all need to do  - yes sir ree.  After being in business since 1931 we should just close up shop and go into another line of work.

                            I'm willing!

                            Does anyone have about 6 million extra, so I can pay the bank off and go off and do something else?

                             



                            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            P.S. Thank you to all who replied to this thread. People standing up to an inappropriate personal attack restores my faith in humanity.



                            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Yes, we do have moderators on this forum, including me (Joe Braun), Tanya, Bo Beck, Ram, Tom Jones, Mohave Ben, Dean Kurtz, Jeff B, and Shaun V.  


                            I've read this entire thread and I don't think it's worth deleting since there are some nuggets of useful information in it, but I'll come to Tanya's defense as well. Nothing Tanya posted was whiny or inappropriate and I agree with her comments and position. I have a lot of friends in the tourism industry in Springdale who basically saw business go from 100% to 5% during the shutdown. Zion National Park means EVERYTHING to businesses in the area and the policies of the federal government down to the implementation and attitudes of local NPS can have great impact. 


                            sfbayhooligan -- Congratulations on being the first pissy thread this group has seen in about a decade. If you don't like our peanut gallery here, move on, play nice, or we'd be happy to ban you. 


                            Now for more pleasant thoughts, I hope that everybody in the area can enjoy the park today! -Joe




                            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            To the group moderator, if there is one.


                            Please remove this thread for the following reasons

                            1) The title is not relevant to the discussion matter, despite the post script added to the OP

                            2) The "discussion" is predominantly an ad hominem attack on a fellow group member

                            3) No new information is provided that hasn't already been posted in other threads.


                            With Regards,

                            Glenn




                            ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                            sign of the times........no comment escapes and personal and vicious attack.......never simple, respectful disagreement... how sad



                            On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:43 PM, <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                             

                            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Tanya wrote:

                            It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                            Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall. 

                            ********************************************


                             Tanya, you have a propensity to whine & complain without providing any sort of cogent opinion on a solution to the problem. Frankly, it's hard to believe you're apparently a capable & confident wilderness hiker/climber.


                            The system-wide closure of NPS parks certainly exacerbates business problems, but I don't think it is the sole cause of them, and despite the sniveling sarcasm from the peanut gallery ("You can drive thru the park on SR-9, but don't you DARE enjoy the view along the way!"), the *reality* is that hundreds of people a day (including some tour buses) were ignoring the closure and stopping to enjoy the view, hike, take photos, etc.  For better or worse, the only penalty for their actions was that they might return to their vehicle to find an orange violation warning sticker on it, and/or be issued a verbal warning by a Ranger (NPS ZNP has the total number of stickers & verbal warnings issued).   The reality is that vehicles could have been impounded & people cited or arrested.   Some hotel/motels in the area were even handing out blatant misinformation to tourists, stating that while the main park was closed, the Kolob Terrace area was open.


                              You seem to have a lot of experience in & around Zion.   Please share it, instead of acting like a stereotype.  I too am a local that's effected by the situation.   You chose whatever profession you have, and I assume you usually love it, but if things are so dire & you're so dependent on others, either change professions, or keep voting democrat.



                              On a happier note, Zion National Park re-opened this morning.  Visitor Center opened around 12:30PM.

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