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Could Zion be reopening?

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  • cgptsnaz
    I heard at work yesterday that Zion may be reopening due to peoples complaints? A friend in Washington DC says the War Memorial has opened which he thought was
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 6, 2013
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      I heard at work yesterday that Zion may be reopening due to peoples complaints? A friend in Washington DC says the War Memorial has opened which he thought was a good sign. He is coming to stay at the Thunderbird this next week and we were planning to hike the West Rim trail in Zion.

      Has anyone heard whether Zion is going to be open?
    • Jacqueline O Chaplin
      Would be great, have reservations at the end of the month. Jacqueline O. Chaplin & Waysan (Chinese for precious one, my Shih Tzu) Roadtrek 2008 210V. San
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 6, 2013
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        Would be great, have reservations at the end of the month.

        Jacqueline O. Chaplin & Waysan (Chinese for precious one, my Shih Tzu)

        Roadtrek 2008 210V. San Antonio Race for the Cure 6 Apr 2013--Contact me w/questions 2102733876. Sent from my iPad2.
      • bodhijoe
        Gary -- I haven t heard anything but what do I know. The WWII memorial was reopened because veterans revolted and crossed the chains and it looked really bad
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6, 2013
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          Gary -- I haven't heard anything but what do I know. The WWII memorial was reopened because veterans revolted and crossed the chains and it looked really bad for politicians to be turning away those who put their lives on the line. I'd honestly like to see more rebellion, not just by locals and hikers, but by NPS staff as well.


          I may be a broken record on many forums talking about my recent experience in Acadia National Park. I had a week-long trip there that could have been ruined by the shutdown. While NPS closed many of the obvious parking lots and the loop road, rangers in Maine think the whole situation is ridiculous, so they are actively looking the other way and letting people enter where they can and go hiking and photographing. They know that the local economy needs all the help it can get and what exact good comes from standing at the gate with a shotgun enforcing a military-style lockdown? The difference in attitude may have something to do with political leaning and it may also have something to do with most of the rangers there being locals and having their heart in the community. And thanks to their revolt, I had a wonderful trip and stayed in the area and spent my money there for several more days rather than going home early.


          I'd love to see a bit more revolt in Zion. Sure we can't drive up the main canyon and eat at the lodge, but let us park in the east canyon and go on a random hike without fear of getting ticketed. Let me park by the canyon junction bridge and get a photo of the Watchman. Let me park at the Hop Valley or Wildcat Trailheads where you hike and never see any rangers during normal conditions. You turn away people from doing things like this and you are actively killing the tourism industry in the area. Not everybody wants to hike the Eagle Crags Trail or Kanarra Creek.



           



          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          I heard at work yesterday that Zion may be reopening due to peoples complaints? A friend in Washington DC says the War Memorial has opened which he thought was a good sign. He is coming to stay at the Thunderbird this next week and we were planning to hike the West Rim trail in Zion.
          Has anyone heard whether Zion is going to be open?
        • Glenn Ray
          I browsed the internet; haven t seen any indication that ZNP is considering opening. Keeping fingers crossed for cooler heads to prevail. I don t envy
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6, 2013
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            I browsed the internet; haven't seen any indication that ZNP is considering opening.  Keeping fingers crossed for cooler heads to prevail.  I don't envy Secretary Jewell right now.

            Glenn
            Sent by Windows Phone 7
          • cgptsnaz
            Is it possible to drive from Springdale to Mt Carmel Jct? A friend from NY is coming in from Las Vegas and has a reservation for the Thunderbid Lodge the next
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6, 2013
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              Is it possible to drive from Springdale to Mt Carmel Jct? A friend from NY is coming in from Las Vegas and has a reservation for the Thunderbid Lodge the next four nights starting Monday. Can he drive thru the park on route 9? Email me at cgptsnaz@... ASAP He needs to know before tomorrow as he expected to arrive at the Lodge at 5 pm. 



              ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Gary -- I haven't heard anything but what do I know. The WWII memorial was reopened because veterans revolted and crossed the chains and it looked really bad for politicians to be turning away those who put their lives on the line. I'd honestly like to see more rebellion, not just by locals and hikers, but by NPS staff as well.


              I may be a broken record on many forums talking about my recent experience in Acadia National Park. I had a week-long trip there that could have been ruined by the shutdown. While NPS closed many of the obvious parking lots and the loop road, rangers in Maine think the whole situation is ridiculous, so they are actively looking the other way and letting people enter where they can and go hiking and photographing. They know that the local economy needs all the help it can get and what exact good comes from standing at the gate with a shotgun enforcing a military-style lockdown? The difference in attitude may have something to do with political leaning and it may also have something to do with most of the rangers there being locals and having their heart in the community. And thanks to their revolt, I had a wonderful trip and stayed in the area and spent my money there for several more days rather than going home early.


              I'd love to see a bit more revolt in Zion. Sure we can't drive up the main canyon and eat at the lodge, but let us park in the east canyon and go on a random hike without fear of getting ticketed. Let me park by the canyon junction bridge and get a photo of the Watchman. Let me park at the Hop Valley or Wildcat Trailheads where you hike and never see any rangers during normal conditions. You turn away people from doing things like this and you are actively killing the tourism industry in the area. Not everybody wants to hike the Eagle Crags Trail or Kanarra Creek.



               



              ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              I heard at work yesterday that Zion may be reopening due to peoples complaints? A friend in Washington DC says the War Memorial has opened which he thought was a good sign. He is coming to stay at the Thunderbird this next week and we were planning to hike the West Rim trail in Zion.
              Has anyone heard whether Zion is going to be open?
            • wininzion
              There were several cars at Coal Pits yesterday and I was told the rangers are unhappy because the people are parking outside Zion and entering. We were
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 7, 2013
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                 There were several cars at Coal Pits yesterday and I was told the rangers are unhappy because the people are parking outside Zion and entering. We were having breakfast at  the Park House and visitors were asking everyone for things to do.  We then headed up Kolob Terrace and I've never seen it so busy. There were people parking at every  pull out, several cars at Wildcat. There was a sticker on a truck parked at Cave Valley but I was told they are just issuing warnings. Quite a few cars at the Smith Mesa turn off, too.
                 
                Our  friend owns the Doggy Dude Ranch and had a very busy weekend with visitors, it's great to see at least some people still coming.
                 
                Win
                 
                 
                 
                In a message dated 10/6/2013 3:47:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, joe@... writes:
                 

                Gary -- I haven't heard anything but what do I know. The WWII memorial was reopened because veterans revolted and crossed the chains and it looked really bad for politicians to be turning away those who put their lives on the line. I'd honestly like to see more rebellion, not just by locals and hikers, but by NPS staff as well.


                I may be a broken record on many forums talking about my recent experience in Acadia National Park. I had a week-long trip there that could have been ruined by the shutdown. While NPS closed many of the obvious parking lots and the loop road, rangers in Maine think the whole situation is ridiculous, so they are actively looking the other way and letting people enter where they can and go hiking and photographing. They know that the local economy needs all the help it can get and w hat exact good comes from standing at the gate with a shotgun enforcing a military-style lockdown? The difference in attitude may have something to do with political leaning and it may also have something to do with most of the rangers there being locals and having their heart in the community. And thanks to their revolt, I had a wonderful trip and stayed in the area and spent my money there for several more days rather than going home early.


                I'd love to see a bit more revolt in Zion. Sure we can't drive up the main canyon and eat at the lodge, but let us park in the east canyon and go on a random hike without fear of getting ticketed. Let me park by the canyon junction bridge an d get a photo of the Watchman. Let me park at the Hop Valley or Wildcat Trailheads where you hike and never see any rangers during normal conditions. You turn away people from doing things like this and you are actively killing the tourism industry in the area. Not everybody wants to hike the Eagle Crags Trail or Kanarra Creek.



                 



                ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                I heard at work yesterday t hat Zion may be reopening due to peoples complaints? A friend in Washington DC says the War Memorial has opened which he thought was a good sign. He is coming to stay at the Thunderbird this next week and we were planning to hike the West Rim trail in Zion.
                Has anyone heard whether Zion is going to be open?

              • ratagonia
                The road through the Park has not been closed. However, you are not allowed to stop nor are you allowed to enjoy your travel through the Park. Last time
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                  The road through the Park has not been closed. However, you are not allowed to stop nor are you allowed to enjoy your travel through the Park. Last time through, there seemed to be 100's of people to which these restrictions did not apply.


                  Tom



                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  Is it possible to drive from Springdale to Mt Carmel Jct? A friend from NY is coming in from Las Vegas and has a reservation for the Thunderbid Lodge the next four nights starting Monday. Can he drive thru the park on route 9? Email me at cgptsnaz@... ASAP He needs to know before tomorrow as he expected to arrive at the Lodge at 5 pm. 



                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  Gary -- I haven't heard anything but what do I know. The WWII memorial was reopened because veterans revolted and crossed the chains and it looked really bad for politicians to be turning away those who put their lives on the line. I'd honestly like to see more rebellion, not just by locals and hikers, but by NPS staff as well.


                  I may be a broken record on many forums talking about my recent experience in Acadia National Park. I had a week-long trip there that could have been ruined by the shutdown. While NPS closed many of the obvious parking lots and the loop road, rangers in Maine think the whole situation is ridiculous, so they are actively looking the other way and letting people enter where they can and go hiking and photographing. They know that the local economy needs all the help it can get and what exact good comes from standing at the gate with a shotgun enforcing a military-style lockdown? The difference in attitude may have something to do with political leaning and it may also have something to do with most of the rangers there being locals and having their heart in the community. And thanks to their revolt, I had a wonderful trip and stayed in the area and spent my money there for several more days rather than going home early.


                  I'd love to see a bit more revolt in Zion. Sure we can't drive up the main canyon and eat at the lodge, but let us park in the east canyon and go on a random hike without fear of getting ticketed. Let me park by the canyon junction bridge and get a photo of the Watchman. Let me park at the Hop Valley or Wildcat Trailheads where you hike and never see any rangers during normal conditions. You turn away people from doing things like this and you are actively killing the tourism industry in the area. Not everybody wants to hike the Eagle Crags Trail or Kanarra Creek.



                   



                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  I heard at work yesterday that Zion may be reopening due to peoples complaints? A friend in Washington DC says the War Memorial has opened which he thought was a good sign. He is coming to stay at the Thunderbird this next week and we were planning to hike the West Rim trail in Zion.
                  Has anyone heard whether Zion is going to be open?
                • Lee Hiers
                  I m at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view. I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                    I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                    I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                    Lee

                  • ratagonia
                    GSMNP??? Great Smoky Mountains National Park? THE most visited of National Park, mostly via its scenic drives, and one of the few National Park parks that has
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                      GSMNP???  


                      Great Smoky Mountains National Park?  THE most visited of National Park, mostly via its scenic drives, and one of the few National Park parks that has no entrance fee.


                      Maybe the rangers there are more reasonable, or maybe they had no practicable plan for closing the Park.


                      Tom



                      ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <lee.hiers@...> wrote:

                      I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                      I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                      Lee

                    • Marshall Wilson
                      It would be very surprising that the NPS folks would go out of their way to penalize people behaving properly, not littering, etc. It doesn t require a lot of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                        It would be very surprising that the NPS folks would go out of their way to penalize people behaving properly, not littering, etc.  It doesn't require a lot of government for folks to walk on trails or look at scenery.





                        On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
                         

                        I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                        I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                        Lee


                      • hwstockman
                        Often parks will simply post someone at the parking area, and wait till the person comes back to determine if a ticket can be issued. Twice I ve had to talk
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                          Often parks will simply post someone at the parking area, and wait till the person comes back to determine if a ticket can be issued.  Twice I've had to talk my way out of a ticket (when I thought I was doing something legitimate), when the ranger met me at the car.  Presumably, there aren't enough rangers left to handle anything other than "emergency" situations, but I don't know what that means, nor if local law enforcement can/will help with trespassing issues.  


                          Once when I parked off route 9, I came across ambiguous signs concerning travel into Gifford Wash.  There were two rangers nearby, so I stopped to ask them if it were OK to cross.  Neither really knew; one leaned toward "no," and one toward "yes," so I went ahead. But the situation might have turned out differently, if I'd met just the "no" fellow.



                          ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                          It would be very surprising that the NPS folks would go out of their way to penalize people behaving properly, not littering, etc.  It doesn't require a lot of government for folks to walk on trails or look at scenery.





                          On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
                           

                          I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                          I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                          Lee


                        • kpig751
                          meanwhile in Harlan s backyard . . . By HENRY BREANLAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL The government was shut down but the great outdoors was still open, so Gina
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                            meanwhile in Harlan's backyard . . .

                             

                             By HENRY BREANLAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL The government was shut down but the great outdoors was still open, so Gina Borchers and her sister decided to duck under the locked gate at Red Rock Canyon to go for a hike. Then the two tourists from Southern California ran across a law enforcement ranger who decided to make a federal case out of it. Borchers said she and her sister, Donna Kanehl, 53, were ticketed by a Bureau of Land Management officer for “creating a nuisance” by entering the closed Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area on Saturday. “Obviously we were bad, bad old ladies with our visors and our water bottles,” the 55-year-old said. The citation could wind up costing each of them $275, though Borchers might challenge hers in federal court. “We were not trying to get away with anything. We were walking,” she said. “We’re not the kind of ladies who get into trouble.” The two came to town for a dental convention and were staying at the Luxor. Borchers said their run-in with the law put a damper on the rest of their trip. They planned to hike for an hour or two, but about 20 minutes into their walk they heard the ranger’s voice booming over a loud speaker on his vehicle. “I thought he was going to tell us to be careful or watch out for rattlesnakes,” Borchers said. She works for the city of San Clemente, Calif., so she knows a little something about how government employees can — and should — interact with the public. “The ranger had many responses to choose from and with us, he decided to choose a particularly harsh one,” she said. “He was all puffed up and angry.” The man asked them if they had seen the “Area Closed” signs. Then he asked them for identification. When they told him their IDs were in their vehicle, he drove behind them “at one mile an hour” as they hiked back to retrieve them, Borchers said. “The whole walk of shame.” She insists they did nothing to provoke the officer. “We were very, very apologetic,” she said. “He scared us. We may have peed a little bit, but we didn’t mouth off.” Borchers said she tried to take the fall for both of them. After all, it was her idea to ignore the signs and cross under the gate. “I stupidly thought that just meant the visitor center and the road were closed. I stupidly didn’t think that meant everything is illegal,” she said. “I was wrong. I was absolutely wrong.” But she certainly wasn’t alone. The closure has pushed visitor traffic to other parts of the almost 200,000-acre conservation area, but it certainly hasn’t kept people out. Borchers said she met several other tourists over the weekend who reported being treated rudely by Red Rock rangers, though none of them received citations. Tod Story, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, couldn’t address the specifics of this case, but in general he said people should follow the law and pay attention to signs posted by the government on public lands. The larger issue is the shutdown itself, Story said. “It’s ridiculous that access is being restricted based on the Congress not being able to reach an agreement on the budget.” It’s unclear how many citations the BLM has issued at Red Rock Canyon since the gates were locked at the scenic loop and elsewhere on Oct. 1. BLM officials could not be reached for comment. The public information officers for both the conservation area and the bureau’s Las Vegas field office are on furlough. BLM’s website is offline. The Lake Mead National Recreation Area also is closed, but its spokeswoman, Christie Vanover, remains on duty. She said that as of Tuesday morning, the National Park Service had issued about 300 warnings — roughly 50 of them in writing — to people found inside the 1.5 million-acre recreation area without authorization. She only knew of one citation, which she said was issued early in the shutdown to a man found hauling rock out of the recreation area near Nelson’s Landing, south of Boulder City. Borchers said her experience on Saturday won’t sour her on Las Vegas or Red Rock Canyon. She owns a rental home in the valley and still wants to live in it full time after she retires. In the meantime, she plans to keep coming here for weekend getaways and the occasional federal court appearance. But her little sister might take some convincing. Apparently Kanehl is a little ticked at Borchers for leading her astray. “I’m never going to live this down. She’s only mentioned it a hundred times a day every day since it happened,” Borchers said. “She’s already threatening to tell our mother.” Contact reporter Henry Brean at hbrean@... or 702-383-0350. Follow him, @RefriedBrean, on Twitter.



                            ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <hwstock@...> wrote:

                            Often parks will simply post someone at the parking area, and wait till the person comes back to determine if a ticket can be issued.  Twice I've had to talk my way out of a ticket (when I thought I was doing something legitimate), when the ranger met me at the car.  Presumably, there aren't enough rangers left to handle anything other than "emergency" situations, but I don't know what that means, nor if local law enforcement can/will help with trespassing issues.  


                            Once when I parked off route 9, I came across ambiguous signs concerning travel into Gifford Wash.  There were two rangers nearby, so I stopped to ask them if it were OK to cross.  Neither really knew; one leaned toward "no," and one toward "yes," so I went ahead. But the situation might have turned out differently, if I'd met just the "no" fellow.



                            ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                            It would be very surprising that the NPS folks would go out of their way to penalize people behaving properly, not littering, etc.  It doesn't require a lot of government for folks to walk on trails or look at scenery.





                            On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
                             

                            I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                            I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                            Lee


                          • Lee Hiers
                            ... Yes, that s the one. My understanding is that overlooks and pull-offs on the main highway through the park were originally closed, but later the park
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                              On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:38 AM, <ratagonia@...> wrote: 

                              GSMNP???  

                              Great Smoky Mountains National Park?  THE most visited of National Park, mostly via its scenic drives, and one of the few National Park parks that has no entrance fee.

                              Yes, that's the one.  My understanding is that overlooks and pull-offs on the main highway through the park were originally closed, but later the park personnel decided it was OK for folks to stop and get out of their vehicles...not use any of the trails, but at least they weren't harassing people for just stopping. 

                              Maybe the rangers there are more reasonable, or maybe they had no practicable plan for closing the Park.

                              I don't know what their official plan was...I do know that regularly the main road through the park is closed during the winter during icy conditions, so they have the gates in place to simply shut down the road.  The road is a US highway, which I think is one of the reasons there is no entrance fee...although I think there should be...at least if the funds could stay with the park or, at the least, with the NPS.

                              I should be driving through Zion late tomorrow afternoon.  I may have to stop to stretch my legs in the interest of driving safety...I'll let you know if I have an encounter with a ranger.  But I don't plan on hiking in the park if it's closed.

                              Lee

                            • hwstockman
                              Thankfully I m out for a while on medical. But there are many ways to enter Red Rock without getting a ticket. The back way through Mountain Springs and
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 8, 2013
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                                Thankfully I'm out for a while on medical.  But there are many ways to enter Red Rock without getting a ticket. The "back way" through Mountain Springs and Lovell Canyon is not being patrolled, and the trailheads off the scenic loop are not checked; Calico Basin is pretty open.  The BLM has helicopters with PA systems flying over the park, and is probably spending a lot of money just to make a statement. 


                                The patrollers generally avoid any activity that can't be done with a vehicle. 


                                There was a simmering rage about the BLM RRCNCA rangers; this is not helping improve relations.  For the most part, we ignore them, as they spend no time in the backcountry.



                                ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                meanwhile in Harlan's backyard . . .

                                 

                                 By HENRY BREANLAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL The government was shut down but the great outdoors was still open, so Gina Borchers and her sister decided to duck under the locked gate at Red Rock Canyon to go for a hike. Then the two tourists from Southern California ran across a law enforcement ranger who decided to make a federal case out of it. Borchers said she and her sister, Donna Kanehl, 53, were ticketed by a Bureau of Land Management officer for “creating a nuisance” by entering the closed Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area on Saturday. “Obviously we were bad, bad old ladies with our visors and our water bottles,” the 55-year-old said. The citation could wind up costing each of them $275, though Borchers might challenge hers in federal court. “We were not trying to get away with anything. We were walking,” she said. “We’re not the kind of ladies who get into trouble.” The two came to town for a dental convention and were staying at the Luxor. Borchers said their run-in with the law put a damper on the rest of their trip. They planned to hike for an hour or two, but about 20 minutes into their walk they heard the ranger’s voice booming over a loud speaker on his vehicle. “I thought he was going to tell us to be careful or watch out for rattlesnakes,” Borchers said. She works for the city of San Clemente, Calif., so she knows a little something about how government employees can — and should — interact with the public. “The ranger had many responses to choose from and with us, he decided to choose a particularly harsh one,” she said. “He was all puffed up and angry.” The man asked them if they had seen the “Area Closed” signs. Then he asked them for identification. When they told him their IDs were in their vehicle, he drove behind them “at one mile an hour” as they hiked back to retrieve them, Borchers said. “The whole walk of shame.” She insists they did nothing to provoke the officer. “We were very, very apologetic,” she said. “He scared us. We may have peed a little bit, but we didn’t mouth off.” Borchers said she tried to take the fall for both of them. After all, it was her idea to ignore the signs and cross under the gate. “I stupidly thought that just meant the visitor center and the road were closed. I stupidly didn’t think that meant everything is illegal,” she said. “I was wrong. I was absolutely wrong.” But she certainly wasn’t alone. The closure has pushed visitor traffic to other parts of the almost 200,000-acre conservation area, but it certainly hasn’t kept people out. Borchers said she met several other tourists over the weekend who reported being treated rudely by Red Rock rangers, though none of them received citations. Tod Story, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, couldn’t address the specifics of this case, but in general he said people should follow the law and pay attention to signs posted by the government on public lands. The larger issue is the shutdown itself, Story said. “It’s ridiculous that access is being restricted based on the Congress not being able to reach an agreement on the budget.” It’s unclear how many citations the BLM has issued at Red Rock Canyon since the gates were locked at the scenic loop and elsewhere on Oct. 1. BLM officials could not be reached for comment. The public information officers for both the conservation area and the bureau’s Las Vegas field office are on furlough. BLM’s website is offline. The Lake Mead National Recreation Area also is closed, but its spokeswoman, Christie Vanover, remains on duty. She said that as of Tuesday morning, the National Park Service had issued about 300 warnings — roughly 50 of them in writing — to people found inside the 1.5 million-acre recreation area without authorization. She only knew of one citation, which she said was issued early in the shutdown to a man found hauling rock out of the recreation area near Nelson’s Landing, south of Boulder City. Borchers said her experience on Saturday won’t sour her on Las Vegas or Red Rock Canyon. She owns a rental home in the valley and still wants to live in it full time after she retires. In the meantime, she plans to keep coming here for weekend getaways and the occasional federal court appearance. But her little sister might take some convincing. Apparently Kanehl is a little ticked at Borchers for leading her astray. “I’m never going to live this down. She’s only mentioned it a hundred times a day every day since it happened,” Borchers said. “She’s already threatening to tell our mother.” Contact reporter Henry Brean at hbrean@... or 702-383-0350. Follow him, @RefriedBrean, on Twitter.



                                ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <hwstock@...> wrote:

                                Often parks will simply post someone at the parking area, and wait till the person comes back to determine if a ticket can be issued.  Twice I've had to talk my way out of a ticket (when I thought I was doing something legitimate), when the ranger met me at the car.  Presumably, there aren't enough rangers left to handle anything other than "emergency" situations, but I don't know what that means, nor if local law enforcement can/will help with trespassing issues.  


                                Once when I parked off route 9, I came across ambiguous signs concerning travel into Gifford Wash.  There were two rangers nearby, so I stopped to ask them if it were OK to cross.  Neither really knew; one leaned toward "no," and one toward "yes," so I went ahead. But the situation might have turned out differently, if I'd met just the "no" fellow.



                                ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                                It would be very surprising that the NPS folks would go out of their way to penalize people behaving properly, not littering, etc.  It doesn't require a lot of government for folks to walk on trails or look at scenery.





                                On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
                                 

                                I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                                I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                                Lee


                              • hwstockman
                                To confirm, there are rangers posted at the entrance and exit of the scenic loop at Red Rock, and that s it so far. People continue to park at the Calico
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 9, 2013
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                                  To confirm, there are rangers posted at the entrance and exit of the scenic loop at Red Rock, and that's it so far. People continue to park at the Calico trailheads, and at the (off-loop) trailheads for Oak Creek and First Creek, the ways into Mounts Wilson and Rainbow Peak.  I'm told there were over one hundred cars parked at Oak Cr and 1st Cr yesterday, no tickets, no rangers.  Because of my current medical restrictions, I can't check other THs, but I'd bet there is still access to Bridge Mt, Black Velvet, Windy, Monument, and Sandstone Peaks. if you know where to go.  



                                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                  Thankfully I'm out for a while on medical.  But there are many ways to enter Red Rock without getting a ticket. The "back way" through Mountain Springs and Lovell Canyon is not being patrolled, and the trailheads off the scenic loop are not checked; Calico Basin is pretty open.  The BLM has helicopters with PA systems flying over the park, and is probably spending a lot of money just to make a statement. 


                                  The patrollers generally avoid any activity that can't be done with a vehicle. 


                                  There was a simmering rage about the BLM RRCNCA rangers; this is not helping improve relations.  For the most part, we ignore them, as they spend no time in the backcountry.



                                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                  meanwhile in Harlan's backyard . . .

                                   

                                   By HENRY BREANLAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL The government was shut down but the great outdoors was still open, so Gina Borchers and her sister decided to duck under the locked gate at Red Rock Canyon to go for a hike. Then the two tourists from Southern California ran across a law enforcement ranger who decided to make a federal case out of it. Borchers said she and her sister, Donna Kanehl, 53, were ticketed by a Bureau of Land Management officer for “creating a nuisance” by entering the closed Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area on Saturday. “Obviously we were bad, bad old ladies with our visors and our water bottles,” the 55-year-old said. The citation could wind up costing each of them $275, though Borchers might challenge hers in federal court. “We were not trying to get away with anything. We were walking,” she said. “We’re not the kind of ladies who get into trouble.” The two came to town for a dental convention and were staying at the Luxor. Borchers said their run-in with the law put a damper on the rest of their trip. They planned to hike for an hour or two, but about 20 minutes into their walk they heard the ranger’s voice booming over a loud speaker on his vehicle. “I thought he was going to tell us to be careful or watch out for rattlesnakes,” Borchers said. She works for the city of San Clemente, Calif., so she knows a little something about how government employees can — and should — interact with the public. “The ranger had many responses to choose from and with us, he decided to choose a particularly harsh one,” she said. “He was all puffed up and angry.” The man asked them if they had seen the “Area Closed” signs. Then he asked them for identification. When they told him their IDs were in their vehicle, he drove behind them “at one mile an hour” as they hiked back to retrieve them, Borchers said. “The whole walk of shame.” She insists they did nothing to provoke the officer. “We were very, very apologetic,” she said. “He scared us. We may have peed a little bit, but we didn’t mouth off.” Borchers said she tried to take the fall for both of them. After all, it was her idea to ignore the signs and cross under the gate. “I stupidly thought that just meant the visitor center and the road were closed. I stupidly didn’t think that meant everything is illegal,” she said. “I was wrong. I was absolutely wrong.” But she certainly wasn’t alone. The closure has pushed visitor traffic to other parts of the almost 200,000-acre conservation area, but it certainly hasn’t kept people out. Borchers said she met several other tourists over the weekend who reported being treated rudely by Red Rock rangers, though none of them received citations. Tod Story, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, couldn’t address the specifics of this case, but in general he said people should follow the law and pay attention to signs posted by the government on public lands. The larger issue is the shutdown itself, Story said. “It’s ridiculous that access is being restricted based on the Congress not being able to reach an agreement on the budget.” It’s unclear how many citations the BLM has issued at Red Rock Canyon since the gates were locked at the scenic loop and elsewhere on Oct. 1. BLM officials could not be reached for comment. The public information officers for both the conservation area and the bureau’s Las Vegas field office are on furlough. BLM’s website is offline. The Lake Mead National Recreation Area also is closed, but its spokeswoman, Christie Vanover, remains on duty. She said that as of Tuesday morning, the National Park Service had issued about 300 warnings — roughly 50 of them in writing — to people found inside the 1.5 million-acre recreation area without authorization. She only knew of one citation, which she said was issued early in the shutdown to a man found hauling rock out of the recreation area near Nelson’s Landing, south of Boulder City. Borchers said her experience on Saturday won’t sour her on Las Vegas or Red Rock Canyon. She owns a rental home in the valley and still wants to live in it full time after she retires. In the meantime, she plans to keep coming here for weekend getaways and the occasional federal court appearance. But her little sister might take some convincing. Apparently Kanehl is a little ticked at Borchers for leading her astray. “I’m never going to live this down. She’s only mentioned it a hundred times a day every day since it happened,” Borchers said. “She’s already threatening to tell our mother.” Contact reporter Henry Brean at hbrean@... or 702-383-0350. Follow him, @RefriedBrean, on Twitter.



                                  ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <hwstock@...> wrote:

                                  Often parks will simply post someone at the parking area, and wait till the person comes back to determine if a ticket can be issued.  Twice I've had to talk my way out of a ticket (when I thought I was doing something legitimate), when the ranger met me at the car.  Presumably, there aren't enough rangers left to handle anything other than "emergency" situations, but I don't know what that means, nor if local law enforcement can/will help with trespassing issues.  


                                  Once when I parked off route 9, I came across ambiguous signs concerning travel into Gifford Wash.  There were two rangers nearby, so I stopped to ask them if it were OK to cross.  Neither really knew; one leaned toward "no," and one toward "yes," so I went ahead. But the situation might have turned out differently, if I'd met just the "no" fellow.



                                  ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                                  It would be very surprising that the NPS folks would go out of their way to penalize people behaving properly, not littering, etc.  It doesn't require a lot of government for folks to walk on trails or look at scenery.





                                  On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  I'm at the gate in Atlanta waiting on a flight to SLC...I should be riding thru ZNP tomorrow, not enjoying the view.

                                  I do know that at GSMNP the overlooks are open for stopping...will see what it's like at Zion tomorrow.

                                  Lee


                                • Tim
                                    Reference: http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20131007/NEWS01/310070001/Counties-declare-emergency-over-closed-parks  The Washington County Sheriff is
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 9, 2013
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                                      Reference:
                                    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20131007/NEWS01/310070001/Counties-declare-emergency-over-closed-parks

                                     The Washington County Sheriff is having an informal meeting at ZNP with a ZNP LE official
                                    right now.
                                  • tanya_o0o
                                    It is an emergency. The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters. Winters are harsh here. Our employees like to go on
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 10, 2013
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                                      It is an emergency.  The locals here rely on this last month of business to survive the winters.  Winters are harsh here.  Our employees like to go on "vacation" which is their annual winter layoffs, while we pay for their unemployment.  The power companies here have demand charges that kill us in the winter.  It's a struggle to survive every single year, and this is damaging the economy here and in Springdale.

                                      Right now snow is falling.  We have already missed our window to get the income to survive the winter.  Business around here is going to struggle this year, and many will probably even fall.



                                      ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                        Reference:
                                      http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20131007/NEWS01/310070001/Counties-declare-emergency-over-closed-parks

                                       The Washington County Sheriff is having an informal meeting at ZNP with a ZNP LE official
                                      right now.
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