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Federal closure

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  • mojave_ben
    So... what s it like now and what are people doing. I presume they are not collecting fees :) Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances? Boy you could
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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      So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

      Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

      Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

      Any first person reports?
    • Lee Hiers
      ... I read the park service s plan for shutdown and it mentioned closing all roads to NPs where possible. I also saw this on Facebook this morning posted by
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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        On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:

        So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

        I read the park service's plan for shutdown and it mentioned closing all roads to NPs where possible.

        I also saw this on Facebook this morning posted by someone who works at Grand Canyon:  

        Here at the Grand Canyon. With the closure no one is allowed on the rim and roads will be watch so no one isn't where they are suppose to be. I even heard that they will be watching private areas so you have to identify where you live. So going to a meeting this morning should be interesting.

        Which I interpret to mean some essential workers will be watching for trespassers.

        I'm planning on being in southern UT next week...my first time in 8 or 9 years, and my wife's first time ever.  I'm not real happy about the shutdown generally, and definitely ticked off because the parks may be closed....although in the grand scheme of things, my inconvenience is pretty minor compared to many others' in this colossal waste of billions of dollars.  

        Maybe the shutdown will be over by then...

        Lee




      • glennlray
        I spoke with BLM reps yesterday (Vermillion Cliffs). They said access to un-maintained BLM land would still be available. If you have a permit to a restricted
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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          I spoke with BLM reps yesterday (Vermillion Cliffs).  They said access to un-maintained BLM land would still be available.  If you have a permit to a restricted area, like Coyote Buttes, you'll be allowed as long as you have your permit in your possession.  They will enforce.


          According to the fact sheet from the Dept. of Interior, US Park Police and law enforcement remain operational, as do emergency services.  Also, through roads should remain open.  I don't know how Zion intends to implement this; their FB page and nps website have gone silent  (nps.gov basically re-directs to DOI).


          Hasn't affected me yet, since I haven't booked flights/rental car/hotels, but I haven't gotten my permits in the mail.  The last shutdown lasted three weeks; hope this one doesn't break any records. 



          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

          Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

          Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

          Any first person reports?
        • Lee Hiers
          ... Thanks for that - I meant to call them yesterday myself but got busy and figured they were probably covered up as well. And I figured Coyote Buttes would
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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            On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 5:02 PM, <glennlray@...> wrote:
             

            I spoke with BLM reps yesterday (Vermillion Cliffs).  They said access to un-maintained BLM land would still be available.  If you have a permit to a restricted area, like Coyote Buttes, you'll be allowed as long as you have your permit in your possession.  They will enforce.


            Thanks for that - I meant to call them yesterday myself but got busy and figured they were probably covered up as well.  And I figured Coyote Buttes would still require a permit...although I guess for now it's only 10 folks per day instead of 20!

            We're already booked, but I'm pretty sure we can find something to do...plus the standoff may be over before  we get there...but I kinda doubt it.

            Lee

          • Marshall Wilson
            Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff? Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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              Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff?  Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and trespassing if you have an emergency....maybe be hard to get help there if it is illegal to come get you.  Can't imagine how they can effectively enforce a closer for experienced visitors using entrance routes from outside the parks, BLM lands or a NF


              On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
               

              So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

              Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

              Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

              Any first person reports?


            • bodhijoe
              I d love to know what s going on in Zion. Right now, I m in Acadia National Park on day 4 of a 7-day trip suffering a similar ordeal. The main park loop road
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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                I'd love to know what's going on in Zion. Right now, I'm in Acadia National Park on day 4 of a 7-day trip suffering a similar ordeal. The main park loop road is closed; all campgrounds, the Jordan Pond House, etc. closed, closed, closed. Any parking lot with a neck and a gate is closed. But like Zion, Acadia has a lot of through-roads that can't be closed, so there is plenty of roadside parking and trailheads available. And lots of us diehard hikers are swarming to these less popular spots. 


                But while there are workarounds, this whole thing stinks. Most people come to the national parks to see the greatest hits, rather than trying to sneak in the backdoor to see some obscure hike. A few local businesses said that things are already bad and it's only day 1. No campers, no big tour buses, no tourism income. When I said I was here for a few more days, one restaurant owner said "Please please come back as often as you can!" 



                ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff?  Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and trespassing if you have an emergency....maybe be hard to get help there if it is illegal to come get you.  Can't imagine how they can effectively enforce a closer for experienced visitors using entrance routes from outside the parks, BLM lands or a NF


                On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                 

                So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

                Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

                Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

                Any first person reports?


              • bodhijoe
                P.S. It sounds like each park is doing something different. Acadia seems much more sympathetic and isn t bothering day hikers as long as they don t drive on
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 1, 2013
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                  P.S. It sounds like each park is doing something different. Acadia seems much more sympathetic and isn't bothering day hikers as long as they don't drive on closed roads. Sounds like the Grand Canyon is getting ready for red alert military sniper hunting exercises. 



                  ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  I'd love to know what's going on in Zion. Right now, I'm in Acadia National Park on day 4 of a 7-day trip suffering a similar ordeal. The main park loop road is closed; all campgrounds, the Jordan Pond House, etc. closed, closed, closed. Any parking lot with a neck and a gate is closed. But like Zion, Acadia has a lot of through-roads that can't be closed, so there is plenty of roadside parking and trailheads available. And lots of us diehard hikers are swarming to these less popular spots. 


                  But while there are workarounds, this whole thing stinks. Most people come to the national parks to see the greatest hits, rather than trying to sneak in the backdoor to see some obscure hike. A few local businesses said that things are already bad and it's only day 1. No campers, no big tour buses, no tourism income. When I said I was here for a few more days, one restaurant owner said "Please please come back as often as you can!" 



                  ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                  Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff?  Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and trespassing if you have an emergency....maybe be hard to get help there if it is illegal to come get you.  Can't imagine how they can effectively enforce a closer for experienced visitors using entrance routes from outside the parks, BLM lands or a NF


                  On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                   

                  So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

                  Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

                  Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

                  Any first person reports?


                • Tim
                   Campers in the Zion prior to the closure were given 48 hour notices & the last of them are required to be out by tomorrow.   LE has been trying to be
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                     Campers in the Zion prior to the closure were given 48 hour notices & the last of them are required to be out by tomorrow.

                      LE has been trying to be sympathetic to visitors, despite the possible shut-down having been a news item for the
                    past month or so and "Zion National Park is closed" being rather self-explanatory.

                       Some signage & barricade tape put at trailheads marking their closure yesterday were found to have been
                    removed this morning, which forces the few workers to spend time making & erecting new signage & barricades.
                    Thus, expect sympathy wear-off very quickly and people to be issued citations -- funny how even stupid people that
                    apparently can't comprehend "PARK CLOSED TO VISITORS" and "TRAIL CLOSED" have no problem at
                    all reading the citation they're issued, based on their infantile whining about the hefty fine.

                      I feel bad from the people that have come across the country, or from around the world, specifically to
                    SW Utah, specifically to visit one or more of the National Parks. Again though, in most cases the news of potential
                    closure has been well-known for at least the past month.   They should direct their wrath on the
                    US Congress, but also respect the fact that the parks are CLOSED and not make things tougher on the
                    few staff that are around by complaining or asking dumb questions.
                  • Marshall Wilson
                    Did anyone really KNOW the parks would be shutdown? Cancel a vacation or trip of a lifetime because MAYBE the parks could be closed? Closed means employees
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                      Did anyone really KNOW the parks would be shutdown? Cancel a vacation or trip of a lifetime because MAYBE the parks could be closed?  Closed means employees there can't work and be paid, but is it not reasonable to ask why visitors can't walk on trails, site see, explore as they would outside the park where no facilities are provide?  Yes toilets are closed, information centers are closed, emergency response capabilities are limited, no food service and you are on you own if you enter, but why not allow people to proceed at their own risk?  Why cite them for it?  It is possible on BLM land NF land but not park land?  And just when will the parks reopen?  Should all plans be cancelled for the foreseeable future? Seems there should be some flexibility in this regard.  Close the parking lots, shut down the shuttles, turn off the utilities, close the camp grounds etc..... all reasonable responses.....but why be punitive in addition to that?




                      On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Tim <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:
                       

                       Campers in the Zion prior to the closure were given 48 hour notices & the last of them are required to be out by tomorrow.

                        LE has been trying to be sympathetic to visitors, despite the possible shut-down having been a news item for the
                      past month or so and "Zion National Park is closed" being rather self-explanatory.

                         Some signage & barricade tape put at trailheads marking their closure yesterday were found to have been
                      removed this morning, which forces the few workers to spend time making & erecting new signage & barricades.
                      Thus, expect sympathy wear-off very quickly and people to be issued citations -- funny how even stupid people that
                      apparently can't comprehend "PARK CLOSED TO VISITORS" and "TRAIL CLOSED" have no problem at
                      all reading the citation they're issued, based on their infantile whining about the hefty fine.

                        I feel bad from the people that have come across the country, or from around the world, specifically to
                      SW Utah, specifically to visit one or more of the National Parks. Again though, in most cases the news of potential
                      closure has been well-known for at least the past month.   They should direct their wrath on the
                      US Congress, but also respect the fact that the parks are CLOSED and not make things tougher on the
                      few staff that are around by complaining or asking dumb questions.


                    • Lee Hiers
                      On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Tim wrote: Some signage & barricade tape put at trailheads marking their closure ... I feel
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                        On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Tim <sfbayhooligan@...> wrote:

                        Some signage & barricade tape put at trailheads marking their closure yesterday were found to have been
                        removed this morning, which forces the few workers to spend time making & erecting new signage & barricades.
                        Thus, expect sympathy wear-off very quickly and people to be issued citations

                        <SNIP>

                        I feel bad from the people that have come across the country, or from around the world, specifically to
                        SW Utah, specifically to visit one or more of the National Parks. Again though, in most cases the news of potential
                        closure has been well-known for at least the past month.   They should direct their wrath on the
                        US Congress, but also respect the fact that the parks are CLOSED and not make things tougher on the
                        few staff that are around by complaining or asking dumb questions.

                        No kidding.

                        I am one of those cross-country travelers - well, I will be next week...tickets are already purchased and other arrangements in place that can't be cancelled, so I'll be there.  I'm hopeful the parks will re-open before I have to return home, but I'm not expectant.  I'm doing pretty well keeping a positive attitude about this...which goes against my nature!  ;-)

                        I do hate it that the whiners make life difficult for the under-staffed few that are left behind. 

                        Can anyone confirm if Hwy. 9 through the park is, and will remain, open?

                        Lee


                      • Lee Hiers
                        On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Marshall Wilson
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                          On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote: 
                           
                          Closed means employees there can't work and be paid, but is it not reasonable to ask why visitors can't walk on trails, site see, explore as they would outside the park where no facilities are provide?  Yes toilets are closed, information centers are closed, emergency response capabilities are limited, no food service and you are on you own if you enter, but why not allow people to proceed at their own risk?

                          While I have no doubt that you, and I, could enjoy the park without the services that the park normally provides, I don't think that is true of the greater population.  The national parks are much more tightly managed than BLM and NF properties, and do feel restricted by that at times, but I also feel that for the parks, some degree of management is required...and in normal times I'm usually OK with that.  The services provided not only protect the less-experienced visitors, but the park itself from those visitors.

                          I'm not happy with the parks being closed, but feel it is wrongly-placed blame to find fault with the park service for the closure.  

                          If the parks aren't open by my trip next week, I have alternative plans in mind and will enjoy my trip to southern Utah, regardless of what the Washington power-mongers do...or don't do.


                        • ratagonia
                          Highway 9 through the Park is open, however, you are not allowed to stop or enjoy the view on your journey across the closed park. Tom ---In
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                            Highway 9 through the Park is open, however, you are not allowed to stop or enjoy the view on your journey across the closed park.


                            Tom 



                            ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <lee.hiers@...> wrote:

                            On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote: 
                             
                            Closed means employees there can't work and be paid, but is it not reasonable to ask why visitors can't walk on trails, site see, explore as they would outside the park where no facilities are provide?  Yes toilets are closed, information centers are closed, emergency response capabilities are limited, no food service and you are on you own if you enter, but why not allow people to proceed at their own risk?

                            While I have no doubt that you, and I, could enjoy the park without the services that the park normally provides, I don't think that is true of the greater population.  The national parks are much more tightly managed than BLM and NF properties, and do feel restricted by that at times, but I also feel that for the parks, some degree of management is required...and in normal times I'm usually OK with that.  The services provided not only protect the less-experienced visitors, but the park itself from those visitors.

                            I'm not happy with the parks being closed, but feel it is wrongly-placed blame to find fault with the park service for the closure.  

                            If the parks aren't open by my trip next week, I have alternative plans in mind and will enjoy my trip to southern Utah, regardless of what the Washington power-mongers do...or don't do.


                          • Marshall Wilson
                            Yeah. I do agree with you about the Park Service and the other to a point. It is not their fault, but sometimes they do overreact to make the point and
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                              Yeah.  I do agree with you about the Park Service and the other to a point.  It is not their fault, but sometimes they do overreact to make the point and impact of closure sink home with users.



                              On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
                               

                              On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote: 
                               
                              Closed means employees there can't work and be paid, but is it not reasonable to ask why visitors can't walk on trails, site see, explore as they would outside the park where no facilities are provide?  Yes toilets are closed, information centers are closed, emergency response capabilities are limited, no food service and you are on you own if you enter, but why not allow people to proceed at their own risk?

                              While I have no doubt that you, and I, could enjoy the park without the services that the park normally provides, I don't think that is true of the greater population.  The national parks are much more tightly managed than BLM and NF properties, and do feel restricted by that at times, but I also feel that for the parks, some degree of management is required...and in normal times I'm usually OK with that.  The services provided not only protect the less-experienced visitors, but the park itself from those visitors.

                              I'm not happy with the parks being closed, but feel it is wrongly-placed blame to find fault with the park service for the closure.  

                              If the parks aren't open by my trip next week, I have alternative plans in mind and will enjoy my trip to southern Utah, regardless of what the Washington power-mongers do...or don't do.



                            • Lee Hiers
                              ... I understand...I will try not to enjoy the view as I drive through... ;-) Thanks, Lee
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                                On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 2:50 PM, <ratagonia@...> wrote: 

                                Highway 9 through the Park is open, however, you are not allowed to stop or enjoy the view on your journey across the closed park.

                                I understand...I will try not to enjoy the view as I drive through...  ;-)

                                Thanks,

                                Lee

                              • eric boy
                                Hello Hikers,       With the madness of our leaders continuing, many of us are wondering what to do with our vacation plans over the next few weeks.  I
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                                  Hello Hikers,
                                   
                                      With the madness of our leaders continuing, many of us are wondering what to do with our vacation plans over the next few weeks.  I finally after two years got my boss to give me two full weeks of  "hiking therapy" just in time for this closure...sigh.  Any suggestions of State parks of interest?  I had intended to go to Great Basin N.P., Zion N.P.,  Bryce Canyon, Arches N.P. , North Rim/ Cape Royal, then a final stay at Death Valley.  I want to stay in that general area in case the parks open while I am there.  Any help would be welcome,  Thanks Marc Surrency (trapped in the flat land of Central Florida  lol  )
                                • glennlray
                                  Hey EB, If you re flying in to Las Vegas, I highly recommend Valley of Fire State Park. It s only about an hour north of LV off I-15. There are plenty of short
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                                    Hey EB,


                                    If you're flying in to Las Vegas, I highly recommend Valley of Fire State Park. It's only about an hour north of LV off I-15.  There are plenty of short hikes, petroglyphs, tons of slick rock to get lost in.  


                                    North of St. George, Utah is Snow Canyon State Park, which also has petroglyphs and lots of slick rock.  Red Cliffs Desert Reserve is a large, undeveloped area north of St. George.  


                                    You should still consider driving through Zion even if you don't get to stop much.  Springdale is a cool town and has some great views of its own.  Plus some darn good restaurants if you're so inclined.  


                                    Up near Bryce, I recommend Red Canyon in the Dixie National Forest on Highway 12.  The Visitor Center is open until the end of October, but there are plenty of maps and trails.  A fun place to hike if you're avoiding the crowds in Bryce Canyon.


                                    That said, since crowds may not be an issue in Bryce, if you want to do furtively visit Bryce, do it via the Tropic Trail on the east side of the park.  Go to Tropic, Utah, take Bryce Way west about 3.3 miles till it dead ends.  There is a fence crossing and signage in the park right there.  The Tropic Trail is about 1.6 miles long and gets you to the heart of Bryce.  (I did this several times last year...great way to visit.  And yes, I have an America The Beautiful pass, so I wasn't cheating!).


                                    Southeast of Tropic is Kodachrome Basin State Park (I'm hoping to visit that this November myself) and not too far from it is Grosvenor Arch.  If you've got a high-clearance vehicle, Cottonwood Canyon Road is an amazing drive and has several sites to visit along the way.


                                    North of Kanab is Coral Pink Sand Dunes State Park, which makes for a nice, laid back visit.  Evening would be especially good to see with the sunset on the dunes.


                                    You should check out Tanya's website for tons of other destinations in the area (last link below).



                                    http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/park/snow-canyon-state-park


                                    http://www.redcliffsdesertreserve.com/


                                    http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/dixie/recreation/climbing/recarea/?recid=24942&actid=120


                                    http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/park/kodachrome-basin-state-park


                                    http://www.zionnational-park.com/



                                    ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <dogvodo@...> wrote:

                                    Hello Hikers,
                                     
                                        With the madness of our leaders continuing, many of us are wondering what to do with our vacation plans over the next few weeks.  I finally after two years got my boss to give me two full weeks of  "hiking therapy" just in time for this closure...sigh.  Any suggestions of State parks of interest?  I had intended to go to Great Basin N.P., Zion N.P.,  Bryce Canyon, Arches N.P. , North Rim/ Cape Royal, then a final stay at Death Valley.  I want to stay in that general area in case the parks open while I am there.  Any help would be welcome,  Thanks Marc Surrency (trapped in the flat land of Central Florida  lol  )
                                  • Lee Hiers
                                    ... That s one of the places I m probably going to be going to...I was there last time I was in southern UT and enjoyed it...but I doubt the visitor center is
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                                      On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 5:39 PM, <glennlray@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Up near Bryce, I recommend Red Canyon in the Dixie National Forest on Highway 12.  The Visitor Center is open until the end of October, but there are plenty of maps and trails.  A fun place to hike if you're avoiding the crowds in Bryce Canyon.

                                      That's one of the places I'm probably going to be going to...I was there last time I was in southern UT and enjoyed it...but I doubt the visitor center is open with the shutdown!  ;-)

                                      Thanks for all the ideas...even if I'm not the one who asked!

                                      Lee

                                    • mojave_ben
                                      Yes, Glenn says a lot of good things. Plenty of things to do around there. GSENM is wonderful and I doubt any of the (nonexistant?) BLM rangers would be
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                                        Yes, Glenn says a lot of good things.  Plenty of things to do around there.  GSENM is wonderful and I doubt any of the (nonexistant?) BLM rangers would be chasing you out.   So look for stuff that talks about BLM land and not the national parks.  I am a BIG fan of Canaan Mountain, for example, just south of Zion.  Where park boundaries are drawn is fairly arbitrary.  And also what Glenn said about Red Canyon - 70% of the scenery of Bryce with 10% of the visitation.  Take a look at some topo maps, maybe the trail maps are online, certainly it is mentioned on Tanya's pages.  There are MANY ideas there that are out of the park.


                                        As for sneaking into the park and making the poor "essential" employees have to replace the "closed" signs, tsk tsk, for shame for shame.


                                        Death Valley would be tough for a first timer.  They have closed all the gates and put up concrete barriers across all the junctions off the paved state road 190.  They are being really anal I gather.  There are plenty of places you can still get in, but you'd have to know your way on marginal dirt roads.  Plus, a large fraction of the roads are still closed due to severe damage from some late summer floods.  I'd stay away from DV for now.


                                        Valley of Fire is great and not federal.  Lake Mead is federal but I don't know if its gotten shut down.  It would be fairly easy for them to gate off the road along the shore and that would limit access.  If it is not shut, there's a ton of hikes there, check out birdandhike.com for a good guide.


                                        You will still have a great vacation.  You'll just have to work a bit harder to get the info. Ask here if you have specific questions but you've already gotten some great advice.




                                        ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <glennlray@...> wrote:

                                        Hey EB,


                                        If you're flying in to Las Vegas, I highly recommend Valley of Fire State Park. It's only about an hour north of LV off I-15.  There are plenty of short hikes, petroglyphs, tons of slick rock to get lost in.  


                                        North of St. George, Utah is Snow Canyon State Park, which also has petroglyphs and lots of slick rock.  Red Cliffs Desert Reserve is a large, undeveloped area north of St. George.  


                                        You should still consider driving through Zion even if you don't get to stop much.  Springdale is a cool town and has some great views of its own.  Plus some darn good restaurants if you're so inclined.  


                                        Up near Bryce, I recommend Red Canyon in the Dixie National Forest on Highway 12.  The Visitor Center is open until the end of October, but there are plenty of maps and trails.  A fun place to hike if you're avoiding the crowds in Bryce Canyon.


                                        That said, since crowds may not be an issue in Bryce, if you want to do furtively visit Bryce, do it via the Tropic Trail on the east side of the park.  Go to Tropic, Utah, take Bryce Way west about 3.3 miles till it dead ends.  There is a fence crossing and signage in the park right there.  The Tropic Trail is about 1.6 miles long and gets you to the heart of Bryce.  (I did this several times last year...great way to visit.  And yes, I have an America The Beautiful pass, so I wasn't cheating!).


                                        Southeast of Tropic is Kodachrome Basin State Park (I'm hoping to visit that this November myself) and not too far from it is Grosvenor Arch.  If you've got a high-clearance vehicle, Cottonwood Canyon Road is an amazing drive and has several sites to visit along the way.


                                        North of Kanab is Coral Pink Sand Dunes State Park, which makes for a nice, laid back visit.  Evening would be especially good to see with the sunset on the dunes.


                                        You should check out Tanya's website for tons of other destinations in the area (last link below).



                                        http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/park/snow-canyon-state-park


                                        http://www.redcliffsdesertreserve.com/


                                        http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/dixie/recreation/climbing/recarea/?recid=24942&actid=120


                                        http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/park/kodachrome-basin-state-park


                                        http://www.zionnational-park.com/



                                        ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <dogvodo@...> wrote:

                                        Hello Hikers,
                                         
                                            With the madness of our leaders continuing, many of us are wondering what to do with our vacation plans over the next few weeks.  I finally after two years got my boss to give me two full weeks of  "hiking therapy" just in time for this closure...sigh.  Any suggestions of State parks of interest?  I had intended to go to Great Basin N.P., Zion N.P.,  Bryce Canyon, Arches N.P. , North Rim/ Cape Royal, then a final stay at Death Valley.  I want to stay in that general area in case the parks open while I am there.  Any help would be welcome,  Thanks Marc Surrency (trapped in the flat land of Central Florida  lol  )
                                      • tanya_o0o
                                        It s bad for visitors right now. People come from many countries and they get here and are in tears. Many have saved for years to make this trip. I can t
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 2, 2013
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                                           It's bad for visitors right now.  People come from many countries and they get here and are in tears.  Many have saved for years to make this trip.  I can't believe how this is being handled!



                                          ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                          Yes, Glenn says a lot of good things.  Plenty of things to do around there.  GSENM is wonderful and I doubt any of the (nonexistant?) BLM rangers would be chasing you out.   So look for stuff that talks about BLM land and not the national parks.  I am a BIG fan of Canaan Mountain, for example, just south of Zion.  Where park boundaries are drawn is fairly arbitrary.  And also what Glenn said about Red Canyon - 70% of the scenery of Bryce with 10% of the visitation.  Take a look at some topo maps, maybe the trail maps are online, certainly it is mentioned on Tanya's pages.  There are MANY ideas there that are out of the park.


                                          As for sneaking into the park and making the poor "essential" employees have to replace the "closed" signs, tsk tsk, for shame for shame.


                                          Death Valley would be tough for a first timer.  They have closed all the gates and put up concrete barriers across all the junctions off the paved state road 190.  They are being really anal I gather.  There are plenty of places you can still get in, but you'd have to know your way on marginal dirt roads.  Plus, a large fraction of the roads are still closed due to severe damage from some late summer floods.  I'd stay away from DV for now.


                                          Valley of Fire is great and not federal.  Lake Mead is federal but I don't know if its gotten shut down.  It would be fairly easy for them to gate off the road along the shore and that would limit access.  If it is not shut, there's a ton of hikes there, check out birdandhike.com for a good guide.


                                          You will still have a great vacation.  You'll just have to work a bit harder to get the info. Ask here if you have specific questions but you've already gotten some great advice.




                                          ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <glennlray@...> wrote:

                                          Hey EB,


                                          If you're flying in to Las Vegas, I highly recommend Valley of Fire State Park. It's only about an hour north of LV off I-15.  There are plenty of short hikes, petroglyphs, tons of slick rock to get lost in.  


                                          North of St. George, Utah is Snow Canyon State Park, which also has petroglyphs and lots of slick rock.  Red Cliffs Desert Reserve is a large, undeveloped area north of St. George.  


                                          You should still consider driving through Zion even if you don't get to stop much.  Springdale is a cool town and has some great views of its own.  Plus some darn good restaurants if you're so inclined.  


                                          Up near Bryce, I recommend Red Canyon in the Dixie National Forest on Highway 12.  The Visitor Center is open until the end of October, but there are plenty of maps and trails.  A fun place to hike if you're avoiding the crowds in Bryce Canyon.


                                          That said, since crowds may not be an issue in Bryce, if you want to do furtively visit Bryce, do it via the Tropic Trail on the east side of the park.  Go to Tropic, Utah, take Bryce Way west about 3.3 miles till it dead ends.  There is a fence crossing and signage in the park right there.  The Tropic Trail is about 1.6 miles long and gets you to the heart of Bryce.  (I did this several times last year...great way to visit.  And yes, I have an America The Beautiful pass, so I wasn't cheating!).


                                          Southeast of Tropic is Kodachrome Basin State Park (I'm hoping to visit that this November myself) and not too far from it is Grosvenor Arch.  If you've got a high-clearance vehicle, Cottonwood Canyon Road is an amazing drive and has several sites to visit along the way.


                                          North of Kanab is Coral Pink Sand Dunes State Park, which makes for a nice, laid back visit.  Evening would be especially good to see with the sunset on the dunes.


                                          You should check out Tanya's website for tons of other destinations in the area (last link below).



                                          http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/park/snow-canyon-state-park


                                          http://www.redcliffsdesertreserve.com/


                                          http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/dixie/recreation/climbing/recarea/?recid=24942&actid=120


                                          http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/park/kodachrome-basin-state-park


                                          http://www.zionnational-park.com/



                                          ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <dogvodo@...> wrote:

                                          Hello Hikers,
                                           
                                              With the madness of our leaders continuing, many of us are wondering what to do with our vacation plans over the next few weeks.  I finally after two years got my boss to give me two full weeks of  "hiking therapy" just in time for this closure...sigh.  Any suggestions of State parks of interest?  I had intended to go to Great Basin N.P., Zion N.P.,  Bryce Canyon, Arches N.P. , North Rim/ Cape Royal, then a final stay at Death Valley.  I want to stay in that general area in case the parks open while I am there.  Any help would be welcome,  Thanks Marc Surrency (trapped in the flat land of Central Florida  lol  )
                                        • kpig751
                                          This may be myth or jumbled memory on my part, but back in 2005, JoeB and his dad, JoeB Sr. headed off to Crawford Arch, or if you favor, Bridge Mtn Arch,
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 18, 2013
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                                            This may be myth or jumbled memory on my part, but back in 2005, JoeB and his dad, JoeB Sr. headed off to Crawford Arch, or if you favor, Bridge Mtn Arch, along with Tanya, Bo, Cliff and another Joe.  My recollection is that everyone made it up except for Joe Senior.  His hip acted up and he passed on the final pitches.  What impressed me  was not the success of the others, but the fact that Joe Senior got up there as far as he did.   My understanding is that he was 65 yrs old at that time.  That's a lot of relentless ascending for anybody, but for a 65 yr old body, whoa.


                                            Soooo now, I'm on Joe Junior's facebook page,  https://www.facebook.com/citrusmilo, and he currently is featuring a hike in Acadia that looks like it might rival Angel's Landing complete with "via ferrata."   And in a couple of  Joe Junior's excellent photos is a steadfast hiker who just might be Joe Senior.  Amazing and 

                                            inspiring.  Maybe the secret to Joe Senior's living large is a loving spouse. And by golly, looks like she's in the photos as well hiking right along with the rest of the JoeB's.   



                                            ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                            I'd love to know what's going on in Zion. Right now, I'm in Acadia National Park on day 4 of a 7-day trip suffering a similar ordeal. The main park loop road is closed; all campgrounds, the Jordan Pond House, etc. closed, closed, closed. Any parking lot with a neck and a gate is closed. But like Zion, Acadia has a lot of through-roads that can't be closed, so there is plenty of roadside parking and trailheads available. And lots of us diehard hikers are swarming to these less popular spots. 


                                            But while there are workarounds, this whole thing stinks. Most people come to the national parks to see the greatest hits, rather than trying to sneak in the backdoor to see some obscure hike. A few local businesses said that things are already bad and it's only day 1. No campers, no big tour buses, no tourism income. When I said I was here for a few more days, one restaurant owner said "Please please come back as often as you can!" 



                                            ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                                            Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff?  Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and trespassing if you have an emergency....maybe be hard to get help there if it is illegal to come get you.  Can't imagine how they can effectively enforce a closer for experienced visitors using entrance routes from outside the parks, BLM lands or a NF


                                            On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

                                            Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

                                            Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

                                            Any first person reports?


                                          • bodhijoe
                                            Jeff -- Your memory is pretty close! Although my dad wasn t having a hip problem that day; he just didn t have the arms for the chimney obstacle. It s a bit
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Oct 19, 2013
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                                              Jeff -- Your memory is pretty close! Although my dad wasn't having a hip problem that day; he just didn't have the arms for the chimney obstacle. It's a bit more of a climb than he could do, even with a belay. But since then, I've taken him through Pine Creek, Mystery, Das Boot, our 4-day Parunuweap hike in 2009, Birch Hollow in 2012, and elsewhere, iron rung hikes like the Beehive in Acadia. He's 72 now and we definitely take it more easy on him and he passes on hikes like South Guardian Angel, but he loves staying active and being out there which is an inspiration to me as I get older. A loving spouse helps as does an annoying son who keeps coming up with hiking ideas... :)


                                              And on the other side of the generations, my 6-yo daughter hiked a 10-mile day to Deertrap without any complaining and she goes on those iron rung hikes and thinks they're the coolest. (Top-rope climbing at the gym definitely helps.) She even looked at one of my photos of the Subway and randomly told me that she was ready for the hike. I asked her what she thought about rappeling into water and swimming and she said "That sounds awesome!" So perhaps next year; I think she's almost ready. *proud dad* 


                                              But when I'm 70yo, what the hell is she going to make me do? I might be an old man sleeping on the side of Half Dome one night... GULP.



                                              ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              This may be myth or jumbled memory on my part, but back in 2005, JoeB and his dad, JoeB Sr. headed off to Crawford Arch, or if you favor, Bridge Mtn Arch, along with Tanya, Bo, Cliff and another Joe.  My recollection is that everyone made it up except for Joe Senior.  His hip acted up and he passed on the final pitches.  What impressed me  was not the success of the others, but the fact that Joe Senior got up there as far as he did.   My understanding is that he was 65 yrs old at that time.  That's a lot of relentless ascending for anybody, but for a 65 yr old body, whoa.


                                              Soooo now, I'm on Joe Junior's facebook page,  https://www.facebook.com/citrusmilo, and he currently is featuring a hike in Acadia that looks like it might rival Angel's Landing complete with "via ferrata."   And in a couple of  Joe Junior's excellent photos is a steadfast hiker who just might be Joe Senior.  Amazing and 

                                              inspiring.  Maybe the secret to Joe Senior's living large is a loving spouse. And by golly, looks like she's in the photos as well hiking right along with the rest of the JoeB's.   



                                              ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              I'd love to know what's going on in Zion. Right now, I'm in Acadia National Park on day 4 of a 7-day trip suffering a similar ordeal. The main park loop road is closed; all campgrounds, the Jordan Pond House, etc. closed, closed, closed. Any parking lot with a neck and a gate is closed. But like Zion, Acadia has a lot of through-roads that can't be closed, so there is plenty of roadside parking and trailheads available. And lots of us diehard hikers are swarming to these less popular spots. 


                                              But while there are workarounds, this whole thing stinks. Most people come to the national parks to see the greatest hits, rather than trying to sneak in the backdoor to see some obscure hike. A few local businesses said that things are already bad and it's only day 1. No campers, no big tour buses, no tourism income. When I said I was here for a few more days, one restaurant owner said "Please please come back as often as you can!" 



                                              ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                                              Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff?  Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and trespassing if you have an emergency....maybe be hard to get help there if it is illegal to come get you.  Can't imagine how they can effectively enforce a closer for experienced visitors using entrance routes from outside the parks, BLM lands or a NF


                                              On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

                                              Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

                                              Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

                                              Any first person reports?


                                            • kpig751
                                              Joe, When you re 70, you ll be leading the grandkids on epic adventures. One final note on Acadia. Only been there once. Two of my brothers and I climbed
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Oct 20, 2013
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                                                 Joe,  When you're 70, you'll be leading the grandkids on epic adventures.


                                                One final note on Acadia.  Only been there once.  Two of my brothers and I climbed Cadillac.  And back then we thought that was epic.  50 years later I still do.  You never forget your first peak.


                                                Even if it's only 1500 feet high and has a parking lot on top.  jeff



                                                ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <joe@...> wrote:

                                                Jeff -- Your memory is pretty close! Although my dad wasn't having a hip problem that day; he just didn't have the arms for the chimney obstacle. It's a bit more of a climb than he could do, even with a belay. But since then, I've taken him through Pine Creek, Mystery, Das Boot, our 4-day Parunuweap hike in 2009, Birch Hollow in 2012, and elsewhere, iron rung hikes like the Beehive in Acadia. He's 72 now and we definitely take it more easy on him and he passes on hikes like South Guardian Angel, but he loves staying active and being out there which is an inspiration to me as I get older. A loving spouse helps as does an annoying son who keeps coming up with hiking ideas... :)


                                                And on the other side of the generations, my 6-yo daughter hiked a 10-mile day to Deertrap without any complaining and she goes on those iron rung hikes and thinks they're the coolest. (Top-rope climbing at the gym definitely helps.) She even looked at one of my photos of the Subway and randomly told me that she was ready for the hike. I asked her what she thought about rappeling into water and swimming and she said "That sounds awesome!" So perhaps next year; I think she's almost ready. *proud dad* 


                                                But when I'm 70yo, what the hell is she going to make me do? I might be an old man sleeping on the side of Half Dome one night... GULP.



                                                ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                This may be myth or jumbled memory on my part, but back in 2005, JoeB and his dad, JoeB Sr. headed off to Crawford Arch, or if you favor, Bridge Mtn Arch, along with Tanya, Bo, Cliff and another Joe.  My recollection is that everyone made it up except for Joe Senior.  His hip acted up and he passed on the final pitches.  What impressed me  was not the success of the others, but the fact that Joe Senior got up there as far as he did.   My understanding is that he was 65 yrs old at that time.  That's a lot of relentless ascending for anybody, but for a 65 yr old body, whoa.


                                                Soooo now, I'm on Joe Junior's facebook page,  https://www.facebook.com/citrusmilo, and he currently is featuring a hike in Acadia that looks like it might rival Angel's Landing complete with "via ferrata."   And in a couple of  Joe Junior's excellent photos is a steadfast hiker who just might be Joe Senior.  Amazing and 

                                                inspiring.  Maybe the secret to Joe Senior's living large is a loving spouse. And by golly, looks like she's in the photos as well hiking right along with the rest of the JoeB's.   



                                                ---In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, <zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                I'd love to know what's going on in Zion. Right now, I'm in Acadia National Park on day 4 of a 7-day trip suffering a similar ordeal. The main park loop road is closed; all campgrounds, the Jordan Pond House, etc. closed, closed, closed. Any parking lot with a neck and a gate is closed. But like Zion, Acadia has a lot of through-roads that can't be closed, so there is plenty of roadside parking and trailheads available. And lots of us diehard hikers are swarming to these less popular spots. 


                                                But while there are workarounds, this whole thing stinks. Most people come to the national parks to see the greatest hits, rather than trying to sneak in the backdoor to see some obscure hike. A few local businesses said that things are already bad and it's only day 1. No campers, no big tour buses, no tourism income. When I said I was here for a few more days, one restaurant owner said "Please please come back as often as you can!" 



                                                ---In zion_national_park_hiking@yahoogroups.com, <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                                                Do they have anyone to put up barricades or enforce parking with a short or no staff?  Do they care if you walk in.... assuming you are on your own and trespassing if you have an emergency....maybe be hard to get help there if it is illegal to come get you.  Can't imagine how they can effectively enforce a closer for experienced visitors using entrance routes from outside the parks, BLM lands or a NF


                                                On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM, <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                So... what's it like now and what are people doing.  I presume they are not collecting fees :)  Does route 9 stay open under these circumstances?  Boy you could have east Zion to yourself...  but would not be surprised if they ticketed parked cars within the park boundary.

                                                Probably officially all the national forests and BLM land are closed, but seems hard to enforce that.  A few summers ago I was on the North Rim mid summer and there was high fire danger, with the Kaibab national forest closed, and they had put chains or ropes across every dirt road that headed off the pavement south of Jacob's Lake.  I wonder if they do that in this situation or just send everyone home.

                                                Last Federal shutdown I was in Death Valley and the main impact on me was that the housing inside the park was closed down.  That did not keep me from driving in and hiking where I wanted to, though.

                                                Any first person reports?


                                              • mojave_ben
                                                I keep telling my son he owes me for all those miles I carried him. We ll see. He has hauled my pack up a few steep sections lately when he got up before I
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Oct 20, 2013
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                                                  I keep telling my son he owes me for all those miles I carried him.  We'll see.  He has hauled my pack up a few steep sections lately when he got up before I did, so there's hope!
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