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Backpacking in EGS

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  • Kayakpro
    We are planning a BP trip in EGS the first week of November. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with a Saturday to Sunday trip (Monday through Friday in the
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 13, 2013
      We are planning a BP trip in EGS the first week of November. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with a Saturday to Sunday trip (Monday through Friday in the canyons. We are trying to decide whether to spend 2 days in Zion and the rest in EGS or the whole time in ESG and if so, what areas are best. We are experienced backpackers (Grand Canyon, SEKI, Winds, Cascades,Weminuche, GSMNP and others on 5-7 night self support trips on and off trail. We know about Neon Canyon, Coyote Gulch etc. but are curious about other areas and how these compare relatively speaking. Any thoughts are fodder for more research and will be appreciated.

      M
    • Vern Vartdal
      My last trip to the staircase was all SUV camping and day hikes, but was extremely rewarding. Yellow rock off cottonwood canyon road was the best. The colors
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 13, 2013
        My last trip to the staircase was all SUV camping and day hikes, but was extremely rewarding.  Yellow rock off cottonwood canyon road was the best.  The colors were amazing off the southern face.  Across the road from yellow rock is Brighams plain road.  A hike or drive to the top yields stunning views.  

        Also spent time exploring the Paria townsite area just south and the canyons upstream.  Saw bighorn sheep crystals, pet. wood, etc.  More color there than I have seen anywhere.  

        A couple other points of interest were Edmaier's Secret brain rock formations and the nautilus.  Buckskin gulch and the wave are right there too.  

        I really liked water pocket fold at the end of the Burr Trail and several parts of the wolverine loop. 

        It's such a big area with so many features, car camping works better than  backpacking although I do plan on exploring hackberry canyon in a backpacking trip.  That starts at the northern edge of yellow rock.

        Happy map brooding.


        On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:39 PM, "Kayakpro" <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

         

        We are planning a BP trip in EGS the first week of November. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with a Saturday to Sunday trip (Monday through Friday in the canyons. We are trying to decide whether to spend 2 days in Zion and the rest in EGS or the whole time in ESG and if so, what areas are best. We are experienced backpackers (Grand Canyon, SEKI, Winds, Cascades,Weminuche, GSMNP and others on 5-7 night self support trips on and off trail. We know about Neon Canyon, Coyote Gulch etc. but are curious about other areas and how these compare relatively speaking. Any thoughts are fodder for more research and will be appreciated.

        M

      • mojave_ben
        Hackberry is very good. Beautiful bright maroon Moenkopi formation after you go in through the narrows (started at the end, same TH as for Yellow Rock). We
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 13, 2013
          Hackberry is very good. Beautiful bright maroon Moenkopi formation after you go in through the narrows (started at the end, same TH as for Yellow Rock). We tried in April to follow Kelsey's "old cowboy trail" from the cabin out to the road (having checked out the road end first, and finding trail there) but we lost it after a while and went back out the way we came. Could make a good few days going up and exploring out of Hackberry. There's also a nice dayhike sized loop from Yellow Rock then west a bit, pick up old stock trails, come down at the Box of the Paria, that is cool. And some exploring options in there on the old trails into Death Valley but you'd need to have water for that. I bet one could make a very nice loop going in that way, up the Death Valley trail, and connect over to Hackberry, but need route finding skills and you'd have some dry camps I think.

          Kelsey's book has a lot of info about the area. That does not mean his times are at all reasonable or directions to be taken at face value. But we did find the "old cowboy sigs" on our beating around the rocks to find the cowboy trail, so were definitely on something.
        • Vern Vartdal
          Thanks for this. It confirms some things for me and I can hardly wait to get out there. I love Kelsey s book on Exploring the Paria River. Living in the flat
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 13, 2013
            Thanks for this.  It confirms some things for me and I can hardly wait to get out there.  I love Kelsey's book on Exploring the Paria River. Living in the flat land of Arlington TX, it takes me back to the bullseye whenever I need to go between trips.  

            On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:36 PM, "mojave_ben" <mojave_ben@...> wrote:

             

            Hackberry is very good. Beautiful bright maroon Moenkopi formation after you go in through the narrows (started at the end, same TH as for Yellow Rock). We tried in April to follow Kelsey's "old cowboy trail" from the cabin out to the road (having checked out the road end first, and finding trail there) but we lost it after a while and went back out the way we came. Could make a good few days going up and exploring out of Hackberry. There's also a nice dayhike sized loop from Yellow Rock then west a bit, pick up old stock trails, come down at the Box of the Paria, that is cool. And some exploring options in there on the old trails into Death Valley but you'd need to have water for that. I bet one could make a very nice loop going in that way, up the Death Valley trail, and connect over to Hackberry, but need route finding skills and you'd have some dry camps I think.

            Kelsey's book has a lot of info about the area. That does not mean his times are at all reasonable or directions to be taken at face value. But we did find the "old cowboy sigs" on our beating around the rocks to find the cowboy trail, so were definitely on something.

          • mojave_ben
            Can I assume you ve used Kelsey s books before? If not, let s talk about them a bit :) Twice I had gone up Yellow Rock and looked north, to see this
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 14, 2013
              Can I assume you've used Kelsey's books before? If not, let's talk about them a bit :)

              Twice I had gone up Yellow Rock and looked north, to see this incredibly red canyon not too far away. Hackberry. I was drawn to it, and sure enjoyed it! Met a pair who were backpacking down it, and was jealous!
            • Marshall Wilson
              I just ordered Kelsey s hiking guide. Should I also take a look at his technical canyoneering guide? Thanks for the suggestion on Hackberry too. M
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 14, 2013
                I just ordered Kelsey's hiking guide.  Should I also take a look at his technical canyoneering guide?  Thanks for the suggestion on Hackberry too.

                M


                On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:51 AM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                 

                Can I assume you've used Kelsey's books before? If not, let's talk about them a bit :)

                Twice I had gone up Yellow Rock and looked north, to see this incredibly red canyon not too far away. Hackberry. I was drawn to it, and sure enjoyed it! Met a pair who were backpacking down it, and was jealous!


              • Glenn Ray
                In your OP, you didn t mention whether you d been to Zion before. As much as I agree with the recommendations of previous posters (and can vouch for the beauty
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 14, 2013
                  In your OP, you didn't mention whether you'd been to Zion before.

                  As much as I agree with the recommendations of previous posters (and can vouch for the beauty of the Buckskin Gulch/Wire Pass/Edmaiers Secret areas), if you've never been to Zion, you should go with your first suggestion of at least a couple days there.

                  Given your travel time, that might be your last opportunity before winter to try a trans-Zion hike (from La Verkin Creek Trail in Kolub Canyons section, out to East Rim Trail). It's 47 miles, which would be a rush for two days, but would take you through the heart of the park. Your chances of getting a reserved camping site should be better also.

                  Or don't backpack, base in Springdale, and enjoy the full access to the canyon. The shuttle, while a great system, stops running in November.

                  In any case, have a great trip!


                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Kayakpro" <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > We are planning a BP trip in EGS the first week of November. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with a Saturday to Sunday trip (Monday through Friday in the canyons. We are trying to decide whether to spend 2 days in Zion and the rest in EGS or the whole time in ESG and if so, what areas are best. We are experienced backpackers (Grand Canyon, SEKI, Winds, Cascades,Weminuche, GSMNP and others on 5-7 night self support trips on and off trail. We know about Neon Canyon, Coyote Gulch etc. but are curious about other areas and how these compare relatively speaking. Any thoughts are fodder for more research and will be appreciated.
                  >
                  > M
                  >
                • jeff
                  Although nothing is guaranteed, first week in November is likely to be peak color in the main Zion canyon for the autumn leaves. Worth a drive during the late
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 14, 2013
                    Although nothing is guaranteed, first week in November is likely to be peak color in the main Zion canyon for the autumn leaves. Worth a drive during the late afternoon. You'll likely see photographers
                    crowding the bridge over the Virgin where the main canyon road departs from rt 9. Even a stroll on the riverwalk should be rewarding.

                    Consider getting a copy of Canyoneering 3, Loop Hikes in Utah's Escalante. I have used most of Kelsey's books, but have equally enjoyed many great days with Steve Allen as guide.

                    The Bull Valley Gorge/Willis Creek loop is a good one provided Skutumpah Rd is passable. Coyote Gulch is a classic. I have fond memories of Boulder Mail Trail. You could overnight at Death Hollow and either return to your start point or continue on to the opposite end and hitch back to your car or perhaps set up a shuttle with the local outfitter.

                    If you do Hackberry, you could also continue past the cabin and go up a drainage coming in from the left (west) and take it to the Sam Pollock Arch. From the arch you can head cross country westward and pick up a cow trail back to Yellow Rock and eventually your starting point on Cottonwood Wash rd.

                    So many possibilities, so little time.




                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ray" <glennlray@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In your OP, you didn't mention whether you'd been to Zion before.
                    >
                    > As much as I agree with the recommendations of previous posters (and can vouch for the beauty of the Buckskin Gulch/Wire Pass/Edmaiers Secret areas), if you've never been to Zion, you should go with your first suggestion of at least a couple days there.
                    > > Given your travel time, that might be your last opportunity before winter to try a trans-Zion hike (from La Verkin Creek Trail in Kolub Canyons section, out to East Rim Trail). It's 47 miles, which would be a rush for two days, but would take you through the heart of the park. Your chances of getting a reserved camping site should be better also.
                    >
                    > Or don't backpack, base in Springdale, and enjoy the full access to the canyon. The shuttle, while a great system, stops running in November.
                    >
                    > In any case, have a great trip!
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Kayakpro" <marshallwilson770@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > We are planning a BP trip in EGS the first week of November. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with a Saturday to Sunday trip (Monday through Friday in the canyons. We are trying to decide whether to spend 2 days in Zion and the rest in EGS or the whole time in ESG and if so, what areas are best. We are experienced backpackers (Grand Canyon, SEKI, Winds, Cascades,Weminuche, GSMNP and others on 5-7 night self support trips on and off trail. We know about Neon Canyon, Coyote Gulch etc. but are curious about other areas and how these compare relatively speaking. Any thoughts are fodder for more research and will be appreciated.
                    > >
                    > > M
                    > >
                    >
                  • cgptsnaz
                    Do you know the upper Kanab Canyons are north of highway 89 and the Best Friends area?
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 14, 2013
                      Do you know the upper Kanab Canyons are north of highway 89 and the Best Friends area?

                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jb14ers@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Although nothing is guaranteed, first week in November is likely to be peak color in the main Zion canyon for the autumn leaves. Worth a drive during the late afternoon. You'll likely see photographers
                      > crowding the bridge over the Virgin where the main canyon road departs from rt 9. Even a stroll on the riverwalk should be rewarding.
                      >
                      > Consider getting a copy of Canyoneering 3, Loop Hikes in Utah's Escalante. I have used most of Kelsey's books, but have equally enjoyed many great days with Steve Allen as guide.
                      >
                      > The Bull Valley Gorge/Willis Creek loop is a good one provided Skutumpah Rd is passable. Coyote Gulch is a classic. I have fond memories of Boulder Mail Trail. You could overnight at Death Hollow and either return to your start point or continue on to the opposite end and hitch back to your car or perhaps set up a shuttle with the local outfitter.
                      >
                      > If you do Hackberry, you could also continue past the cabin and go up a drainage coming in from the left (west) and take it to the Sam Pollock Arch. From the arch you can head cross country westward and pick up a cow trail back to Yellow Rock and eventually your starting point on Cottonwood Wash rd.
                      >
                      > So many possibilities, so little time.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ray" <glennlray@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In your OP, you didn't mention whether you'd been to Zion before.
                      > >
                      > > As much as I agree with the recommendations of previous posters (and can vouch for the beauty of the Buckskin Gulch/Wire Pass/Edmaiers Secret areas), if you've never been to Zion, you should go with your first suggestion of at least a couple days there.
                      > > > Given your travel time, that might be your last opportunity before winter to try a trans-Zion hike (from La Verkin Creek Trail in Kolub Canyons section, out to East Rim Trail). It's 47 miles, which would be a rush for two days, but would take you through the heart of the park. Your chances of getting a reserved camping site should be better also.
                      > >
                      > > Or don't backpack, base in Springdale, and enjoy the full access to the canyon. The shuttle, while a great system, stops running in November.
                      > >
                      > > In any case, have a great trip!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Kayakpro" <marshallwilson770@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > We are planning a BP trip in EGS the first week of November. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with a Saturday to Sunday trip (Monday through Friday in the canyons. We are trying to decide whether to spend 2 days in Zion and the rest in EGS or the whole time in ESG and if so, what areas are best. We are experienced backpackers (Grand Canyon, SEKI, Winds, Cascades,Weminuche, GSMNP and others on 5-7 night self support trips on and off trail. We know about Neon Canyon, Coyote Gulch etc. but are curious about other areas and how these compare relatively speaking. Any thoughts are fodder for more research and will be appreciated.
                      > > >
                      > > > M
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • mojave_ben
                      No comment on Kelsey s canyoneering guide, haven t used it. A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his dogged used of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                        No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.

                        A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo" correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.

                        He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route. In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east. No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out. So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work. Instead we just backtracked.

                        We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what you get.

                        Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I think that might make for a very cool loop.

                        BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                      • Marshall Wilson
                        Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras that were like
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                          Thanks greatly appreciated.  It would not be the first time we have encountered distorted information.  We ran into a few passes in the Sierras that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually had been there and were going from hearsay.  But, we ended up on some great adventures that way too LOL.  We will take a look a this loop.

                          M


                          On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                           

                          No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.

                          A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo" correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.

                          He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route. In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east. No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out. So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work. Instead we just backtracked.

                          We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what you get.

                          Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I think that might make for a very cool loop.

                          BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.


                        • cgptsnaz
                          Kelsey s books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                            Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.

                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                            > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                            > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                            > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                            > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                            >
                            > M
                            >
                            >
                            > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                            > >
                            > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                            > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                            > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                            > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                            > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                            > >
                            > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                            > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                            > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                            > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                            > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                            > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                            > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                            > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                            > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                            > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                            > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                            > > Instead we just backtracked.
                            > >
                            > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                            > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                            > > you get.
                            > >
                            > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                            > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                            > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                            > >
                            > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Vern Vartdal
                            There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks. I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                              There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks.  I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the areas of concern to take along.  Wish I had that on Baxter pass in the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes.  Nothing wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though.  It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.

                              On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:

                               

                              Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.

                              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                              > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                              > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                              > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                              > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                              >
                              > M
                              >
                              >
                              > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                              > >
                              > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                              > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                              > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                              > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                              > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                              > >
                              > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                              > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                              > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                              > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                              > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                              > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                              > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                              > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                              > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                              > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                              > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                              > > Instead we just backtracked.
                              > >
                              > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                              > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                              > > you get.
                              > >
                              > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                              > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                              > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                              > >
                              > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >

                            • Marshall Wilson
                              Yeah we have been doing the same thing. It helps some. Google Earth has been very useful. We have still had significant problems in the Sierras and Winds
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                                Yeah we have been doing the same thing.  It helps some.  Google Earth has been very useful.  We have still had significant problems in the Sierras and Winds due to snow and a couple of supposedly Class 2 passes that turned out to be much more difficult as we approached the head wall of a cirque or two.  On one trip where we had less experience and less fit folks along that did not have the stomach for risk, it resulted in a 16 mile detour.

                                Have you tried this approach on EGS?  The slots are so small and tight.  Do they show up?  Can you get a good read on the routes there?

                                M




                                On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Vern Vartdal <v_vartdal@...> wrote:
                                 

                                There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks.  I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the areas of concern to take along.  Wish I had that on Baxter pass in the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes.  Nothing wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though.  It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.

                                On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:

                                 

                                Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.

                                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                                > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                                > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                                > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                                > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                                >
                                > M
                                >
                                >
                                > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                                > >
                                > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                                > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                                > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                                > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                                > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                                > >
                                > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                                > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                                > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                                > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                                > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                                > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                                > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                                > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                                > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                                > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                                > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                                > > Instead we just backtracked.
                                > >
                                > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                                > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                                > > you get.
                                > >
                                > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                                > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                                > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                                > >
                                > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >


                              • jeff
                                Not familiar with that area at all. Would like to summit Dianas Throne. Have you been up there? I think Tanya has but I can t find the trip report or route
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                                  Not familiar with that area at all. Would like to summit Dianas Throne. Have you been up there? I think Tanya has but I can't find the trip report or route description.

                                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Do you know the upper Kanab Canyons are north of highway 89 and the Best Friends area?
                                • Vern Vartdal
                                  Yeah, it works, but not as well. You have to zoom in pretty close to get the features which makes it hard to get a big picture and follow the route. I have
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                                    Yeah, it works, but not as well.  You have to zoom in pretty close to get the features which makes it hard to get a big picture and follow the route.  I have always gone in with some uncertainty, but found the hikes as expected based on google.   The Bull Valley gorge off Skutumpah that was mentioned is a tiny black line on google, you can find and follow it, but it's not that easy.



                                    On Aug 15, 2013, at 6:28 PM, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Yeah we have been doing the same thing.  It helps some.  Google Earth has been very useful.  We have still had significant problems in the Sierras and Winds due to snow and a couple of supposedly Class 2 passes that turned out to be much more difficult as we approached the head wall of a cirque or two.  On one trip where we had less experience and less fit folks along that did not have the stomach for risk, it resulted in a 16 mile detour.

                                    Have you tried this approach on EGS?  The slots are so small and tight.  Do they show up?  Can you get a good read on the routes there?

                                    M




                                    On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Vern Vartdal <v_vartdal@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks.  I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the areas of concern to take along.  Wish I had that on Baxter pass in the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes.  Nothing wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though.  It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.

                                    On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.

                                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                                    > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                                    > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                                    > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                                    > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                                    >
                                    > M
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                                    > >
                                    > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                                    > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                                    > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                                    > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                                    > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                                    > >
                                    > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                                    > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                                    > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                                    > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                                    > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                                    > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                                    > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                                    > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                                    > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                                    > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                                    > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                                    > > Instead we just backtracked.
                                    > >
                                    > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                                    > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                                    > > you get.
                                    > >
                                    > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                                    > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                                    > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                                    > >
                                    > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >


                                  • cgptsnaz
                                    Yes, I use Mapcarta and Google Earth to see the area s I plan to hike before hand and print my own area maps from Mapcard.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                                      Yes, I use Mapcarta and Google Earth to see the area's I plan to hike before hand and print my own area maps from Mapcard.

                                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Vern Vartdal <v_vartdal@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks. I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the areas of concern to take along. Wish I had that on Baxter pass in the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes. Nothing wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though. It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.
                                      >
                                      > On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                                      > > > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                                      > > > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                                      > > > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                                      > > > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > M
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > **
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                                      > > > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                                      > > > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                                      > > > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                                      > > > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                                      > > > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                                      > > > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                                      > > > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                                      > > > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                                      > > > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                                      > > > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                                      > > > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                                      > > > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                                      > > > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                                      > > > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                                      > > > > Instead we just backtracked.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                                      > > > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                                      > > > > you get.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                                      > > > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                                      > > > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • cgptsnaz
                                      At Mapcarta the slots only show as dark lines, there I use Mapcard which shows me a bit more detail in 1/6000 to 1/200,000 scale. Its at www.mapcard.com
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                                        At Mapcarta the slots only show as dark lines, there I use Mapcard which shows me a bit more detail in 1/6000 to 1/200,000 scale. Its at www.mapcard.com
                                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yeah we have been doing the same thing. It helps some. Google Earth has
                                        > been very useful. We have still had significant problems in the Sierras
                                        > and Winds due to snow and a couple of supposedly Class 2 passes that turned
                                        > out to be much more difficult as we approached the head wall of a cirque or
                                        > two. On one trip where we had less experience and less fit folks along
                                        > that did not have the stomach for risk, it resulted in a 16 mile detour.
                                        >
                                        > Have you tried this approach on EGS? The slots are so small and tight. Do
                                        > they show up? Can you get a good read on the routes there?
                                        >
                                        > M
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Vern Vartdal <v_vartdal@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks. I usually
                                        > > run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing
                                        > > out the areas of concern to take along. Wish I had that on Baxter pass in
                                        > > the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes. Nothing
                                        > > wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though.
                                        > > It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.
                                        > >
                                        > > On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons
                                        > > of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could
                                        > > remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the
                                        > > upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the
                                        > > Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson
                                        > > <marshallwilson770@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                                        > > > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the
                                        > > Sierras
                                        > > > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                                        > > > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some
                                        > > great
                                        > > > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > M
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > **
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to
                                        > > his
                                        > > > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                                        > > > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his
                                        > > time
                                        > > > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                                        > > > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the
                                        > > hump
                                        > > > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab
                                        > > who
                                        > > > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a
                                        > > route.
                                        > > > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                                        > > > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                                        > > > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well.
                                        > > At
                                        > > > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter
                                        > > of
                                        > > > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                                        > > > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further
                                        > > east.
                                        > > > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked
                                        > > out.
                                        > > > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of
                                        > > work.
                                        > > > > Instead we just backtracked.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that
                                        > > cabin
                                        > > > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you
                                        > > what
                                        > > > > you get.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                                        > > > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                                        > > > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Glenn Ray
                                        re: Google Earth - i mentioned this back in May, but some really good hi-rez imagery of the Zion and southern GESNM areas has been posted in the past couple of
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 15, 2013
                                          re: Google Earth - i mentioned this back in May, but some really good hi-rez imagery of the Zion and southern GESNM areas has been posted in the past couple of months (twice the resolution of previous ones) and routing should be much easier.  I only wish they could update the elevation data; still too smooth to be trusted.

                                          Re: Diana's throne - there's a cool slot canyon just west of it I'd like to check out.  Think there are two short raps (< 30 feet).  I need to go hunt for a TR again on the Internet.

                                          Glenn
                                          Sent by Windows Phone 7

                                          From: cgptsnaz
                                          Sent: 8/15/2013 21:32
                                          To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: Backpacking in EGS

                                           

                                          Yes, I use Mapcarta and Google Earth to see the area's I plan to hike before hand and print my own area maps from Mapcard.

                                          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Vern Vartdal <v_vartdal@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks. I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the areas of concern to take along. Wish I had that on Baxter pass in the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes. Nothing wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though. It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.
                                          >
                                          > On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                                          > > > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                                          > > > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                                          > > > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                                          > > > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > M
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > **
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                                          > > > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                                          > > > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                                          > > > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                                          > > > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                                          > > > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                                          > > > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                                          > > > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                                          > > > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                                          > > > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                                          > > > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                                          > > > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                                          > > > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                                          > > > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                                          > > > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                                          > > > > Instead we just backtracked.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                                          > > > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                                          > > > > you get.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                                          > > > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                                          > > > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >

                                          Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (17)

                                          [The entire original message is not included.]
                                        • cgptsnaz
                                          Mapcarta is like Google Earth with the same zoom in ratio.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 16, 2013
                                            Mapcarta is like Google Earth with the same zoom in ratio.

                                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ray <glennlray@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > re: Google Earth - i mentioned this back in May, but some really good hi-rez imagery of the Zion and southern GESNM areas has been posted in the past couple of months (twice the resolution of previous ones) and routing should be much easier. I only wish they could update the elevation data; still too smooth to be trusted.
                                            >
                                            > Re: Diana's throne - there's a cool slot canyon just west of it I'd like to check out. Think there are two short raps (< 30 feet). I need to go hunt for a TR again on the Internet.
                                            >
                                            > Glenn
                                            > Sent by Windows Phone 7
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: cgptsnaz
                                            > Sent: 8/15/2013 21:32
                                            > To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: Backpacking in EGS
                                            >
                                            > Yes, I use Mapcarta and Google Earth to see the area's I plan to hike before hand and print my own area maps from Mapcard.
                                            >
                                            > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Vern Vartdal <v_vartdal@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > There are so many tools nowadays to supplement the guidebooks. I usually run though a route with 3d satellite and topo images before I go printing out the areas of concern to take along. Wish I had that on Baxter pass in the Sierra's when I got disoriented coming back from Rae lakes. Nothing wrong with climbing a ridge to get your bearings once in a while though. It adds to the rush of accomplishment when you're done.
                                            > >
                                            > > On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "cgptsnaz" <cgptsnaz@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > Kelsey's books are what first got me interested in hiking in the canyons of Utah. I have never relied on his books beyond what I read and could remember as I don't carry books while hiking. This fall I am hiking the upper section of Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs NE of Alton Utah to the Best Friends Animal Shelter area above the town of Kanab.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Marshall Wilson <marshallwilson770@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Thanks greatly appreciated. It would not be the first time we have
                                            > > > > encountered distorted information. We ran into a few passes in the Sierras
                                            > > > > that were like that.....only to find out later the authors never actually
                                            > > > > had been there and were going from hearsay. But, we ended up on some great
                                            > > > > adventures that way too LOL. We will take a look a this loop.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > M
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:46 PM, mojave_ben <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > **
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > No comment on Kelsey's canyoneering guide, haven't used it.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > A word on Kelsey. He has a bit of a reputation. Some people object to his
                                            > > > > > dogged used of kilometers and apparent inability to spell "photo"
                                            > > > > > correctly. In truth, he's just loaded with info. BUT... most find his time
                                            > > > > > estimates to be absurdly fast (as in 2x or more) and his directions are
                                            > > > > > frequently on the skimpy side, so you need navigational skills.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > He describes a cowboy trail from the cabin in Hackberry back over the hump
                                            > > > > > to a corral on the Cottonwood Road. I read a TR by some folks in Kanab who
                                            > > > > > seem to take Kelsey with a healthy grain of salt, but they found a route.
                                            > > > > > In his book, the description starts with a color photo and nice bit of
                                            > > > > > detail, and when you get in there, there is certainly a bit evidence of
                                            > > > > > use, AND a rock which has some carved names on it. So all seems well. At
                                            > > > > > that point the description became nonexistent and it was all a matter of
                                            > > > > > route finding. We failed. In hindsight, we turned north too early on a
                                            > > > > > Moenkopi ledge system and we should have climbed higher and further east.
                                            > > > > > No obvious route but a lot of boulders and it could have been worked out.
                                            > > > > > So had we been depending on that, well it would have been a piece of work.
                                            > > > > > Instead we just backtracked.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > We might go back. I believe there's a route - must be to get to that cabin
                                            > > > > > and we saw traces of it ascending from the road. But just shows you what
                                            > > > > > you get.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Someone mentioned connecting from the trails west of Yellow Rock to the
                                            > > > > > canyon with Sam Pollock Arch. That's sort of what I was thinking of. I
                                            > > > > > think that might make for a very cool loop.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > BTW that cabin would not be a bad place to camp.
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