Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Subway Trip

Expand Messages
  • RAM
    There are several short raps so getting some practice somewhere is a good idea. It probably is just best to have someone, maybe two folks along with some
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 3, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      There are several short raps so getting some practice somewhere is a good idea. It probably is just best to have someone, maybe two folks along with some seasoning. Other places you can ask for partners is on Canyon Collective.
      http://canyoncollective.com/
      If your lucky the guidebook author himself (tom, he reads hear and at the above link) might take you purely because he loves to meet new people and canyoneer.

      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Joe,
      >
      > Thank you very much for this information. I certainly appreciate it. I had heard that guides weren't permitted. I wasn't certain, though. I was hoping there was a way of renting the gear from someone and then have them travel with us for the day. In some of my reads, it sounds as if it would be best to have someone with you who has navigated the canyon. I will look into rappelling lessons. We will definitely not make this trip without it. I also read about the unfortunate accident that happened last year. Our plan was to go in August, if we are able to obtain a permit. I am only at the beginning phase of the planning, so have not vetted out all the nuances of the trip. I only know that I've wanted to make this trip for many years now, and want to make it happen!
      >
      > Is there one outfitting company better than the other? Are there accommodations/hotel/campground that you would recommend? Any other suggestions you might be able to offer to help the process?
      >
      > Thanks so much!
      >
      > Eva
      >
      >
      > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Eva -- The National Park Service does not allow guiding within the park, but you can rent gear from one of the outfitters in Springdale like the Zion Adventure Company. That said, if you really want to do the top-down Subway route, I highly recommend you take the time to go to your local climbing gym before your trip and learn how to rappel; it's fairly easy to learn the basics to prepare for your hike. The Subway is worth it. You do not want to attempt this hike without any rappelling experience.
      > >
      > > Also, I'm not sure when you're planning your hike, but spring runoff (March and April) make several sections of canyon more treacherous, especially to people with little canyoneering experience. Summer-fall would be better. You might also want to consider the "bottom-up" route; it's non-technical and you still see a good portion of the magical formations.
      > >
      > > Top-down:
      > > http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/subway.cfm
      > >
      > > Bottom-up:
      > > http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/lowersubway.cfm
      > >
      > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There is a small group of us, maybe 6, that would like to make the Subway trek, probably top to bottom. We range in age from 30-60. We are all backpackers, but do not repel. Also being from the Chandler/Mesa area in Arizona, we are not familiar with the Subway and its terrain. Is it possible to locate a person who is familiar with the Subway that can take us through the day trip and provide the necessary repelling gear?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks in advance.
      > > >
      > > > Eva
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • lady38shooter
      Ram...Thank you for the alternate forum. I have joined and started a thread. Hopefully, we ll get lucky and find someone (Tom sounds like the someone) who ll
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 3, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Ram...Thank you for the alternate forum. I have joined and started a thread. Hopefully, we'll get lucky and find someone (Tom sounds like the someone) who'll want to make the trek with us. We're very excited to visit the Subway!

        Thanks!

        Eva

        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
        >
        > There are several short raps so getting some practice somewhere is a good idea. It probably is just best to have someone, maybe two folks along with some seasoning. Other places you can ask for partners is on Canyon Collective.
        > http://canyoncollective.com/
        > If your lucky the guidebook author himself (tom, he reads hear and at the above link) might take you purely because he loves to meet new people and canyoneer.
        >
        > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Joe,
        > >
        > > Thank you very much for this information. I certainly appreciate it. I had heard that guides weren't permitted. I wasn't certain, though. I was hoping there was a way of renting the gear from someone and then have them travel with us for the day. In some of my reads, it sounds as if it would be best to have someone with you who has navigated the canyon. I will look into rappelling lessons. We will definitely not make this trip without it. I also read about the unfortunate accident that happened last year. Our plan was to go in August, if we are able to obtain a permit. I am only at the beginning phase of the planning, so have not vetted out all the nuances of the trip. I only know that I've wanted to make this trip for many years now, and want to make it happen!
        > >
        > > Is there one outfitting company better than the other? Are there accommodations/hotel/campground that you would recommend? Any other suggestions you might be able to offer to help the process?
        > >
        > > Thanks so much!
        > >
        > > Eva
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Eva -- The National Park Service does not allow guiding within the park, but you can rent gear from one of the outfitters in Springdale like the Zion Adventure Company. That said, if you really want to do the top-down Subway route, I highly recommend you take the time to go to your local climbing gym before your trip and learn how to rappel; it's fairly easy to learn the basics to prepare for your hike. The Subway is worth it. You do not want to attempt this hike without any rappelling experience.
        > > >
        > > > Also, I'm not sure when you're planning your hike, but spring runoff (March and April) make several sections of canyon more treacherous, especially to people with little canyoneering experience. Summer-fall would be better. You might also want to consider the "bottom-up" route; it's non-technical and you still see a good portion of the magical formations.
        > > >
        > > > Top-down:
        > > > http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/subway.cfm
        > > >
        > > > Bottom-up:
        > > > http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/lowersubway.cfm
        > > >
        > > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > There is a small group of us, maybe 6, that would like to make the Subway trek, probably top to bottom. We range in age from 30-60. We are all backpackers, but do not repel. Also being from the Chandler/Mesa area in Arizona, we are not familiar with the Subway and its terrain. Is it possible to locate a person who is familiar with the Subway that can take us through the day trip and provide the necessary repelling gear?
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks in advance.
        > > > >
        > > > > Eva
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • lady38shooter
        Hello Jeff, Thank you for the alternate forum as well. I will check it out and make a post there, too. With any luck, we ll find someone who ll want to make
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 3, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Jeff,

          Thank you for the alternate forum as well. I will check it out and make a post there, too. With any luck, we'll find someone who'll want to make the trip with us.

          We are taking your advice and will check into repelling classes. After visiting Canyon Collective, I have a feeling it will come in handy!

          I understand the Subway is a 9 mile hike. As for being fit, we're packers, so I believe we should be fit enough? We've packed Havasupai several times and have made the trip from camp to the Colorado, which I believe is 9 miles one way? I suppose "fit" is relative. We're not out running marathons!

          Anyhow, thank you for the other forum. I'm keeping my fingers crossed we turn out lucky as you did!

          Eva


          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Schaber <jeffschaber@...> wrote:
          >
          > Eva,
          >
          > Joe offers some great advise. You may also want to check out the forums
          > over at www.Bogley.com There are many locals that follow that forum and you
          > can probably meet someone there that has experience with the Subway. As Joe
          > said, guide service is not allowed but if you have a friend that knows the
          > route and you're not paying them then it's not really a service.
          >
          > We were in your shoes a couple of years ago and did this very thing. Took a
          > lot of the advise here and went to a local climbing wall (even though I had
          > rappelling experience) to get familiar with the ropes and equipment, met a
          > great local couple from St. George on Bogley that had done the Subway many
          > times to help us stay on the route and it was a great experience and have 2
          > new fantastic friends from the trip.
          >
          > The tough part of the Subway is finding the entrance and exit assuming
          > you're physically up to the challenge. Top to bottom it's a 9 mile hike and
          > very hot in August. The rappels are not the most difficult in the park but
          > are not to be taken lightly either You can purchase about all of the gear
          > you need for about than $100 and you'll have it to practice with.
          >
          > In my opinion, the Subway is a must do if you can swing the logistics and I
          > definitely recommend the top to bottom route. Good luck in your planning, I
          > wish I were joining you!
          >
          > --
          > Jeff Schaber
          > ------------------
          >
          > Be who you are, say what you feel.
          > Because those that mind don't matter
          > and those that matter don't mind!
          >
          > ~Dr. Seuss~
          >
        • Joe Braun
          Eva -- To answer your last question, you sound fit and active doing hikes like Havasupai, so you should be just fine especially if you get a good early morning
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 4, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Eva -- To answer your last question, you sound fit and active doing hikes like Havasupai, so you should be just fine especially if you get a good early morning start. I first did the hike over a decade ago when I was in my not-so-fit days and I survived, although I remember the last two miles of open wash and the final uphill exit were torture. This hike inspired me to get it together and it's really not that bad on my body any more. :)

            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Jeff,
            >
            > Thank you for the alternate forum as well. I will check it out and make a post there, too. With any luck, we'll find someone who'll want to make the trip with us.
            >
            > We are taking your advice and will check into repelling classes. After visiting Canyon Collective, I have a feeling it will come in handy!
            >
            > I understand the Subway is a 9 mile hike. As for being fit, we're packers, so I believe we should be fit enough? We've packed Havasupai several times and have made the trip from camp to the Colorado, which I believe is 9 miles one way? I suppose "fit" is relative. We're not out running marathons!
            >
            > Anyhow, thank you for the other forum. I'm keeping my fingers crossed we turn out lucky as you did!
            >
            > Eva
            >
            >
            > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Schaber <jeffschaber@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Eva,
            > >
            > > Joe offers some great advise. You may also want to check out the forums
            > > over at www.Bogley.com There are many locals that follow that forum and you
            > > can probably meet someone there that has experience with the Subway. As Joe
            > > said, guide service is not allowed but if you have a friend that knows the
            > > route and you're not paying them then it's not really a service.
            > >
            > > We were in your shoes a couple of years ago and did this very thing. Took a
            > > lot of the advise here and went to a local climbing wall (even though I had
            > > rappelling experience) to get familiar with the ropes and equipment, met a
            > > great local couple from St. George on Bogley that had done the Subway many
            > > times to help us stay on the route and it was a great experience and have 2
            > > new fantastic friends from the trip.
            > >
            > > The tough part of the Subway is finding the entrance and exit assuming
            > > you're physically up to the challenge. Top to bottom it's a 9 mile hike and
            > > very hot in August. The rappels are not the most difficult in the park but
            > > are not to be taken lightly either You can purchase about all of the gear
            > > you need for about than $100 and you'll have it to practice with.
            > >
            > > In my opinion, the Subway is a must do if you can swing the logistics and I
            > > definitely recommend the top to bottom route. Good luck in your planning, I
            > > wish I were joining you!
            > >
            > > --
            > > Jeff Schaber
            > > ------------------
            > >
            > > Be who you are, say what you feel.
            > > Because those that mind don't matter
            > > and those that matter don't mind!
            > >
            > > ~Dr. Seuss~
            > >
            >
          • Jeff Schaber
            last two miles of open wash and the final uphill exit were torture. You hit the nail on the head with that statement Joe! A lot of back and forth stream
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 4, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              "last two miles of open wash and the final uphill exit were torture." You hit the nail on the head with that statement Joe! A lot of back and forth stream crossings with very uneven terrain which in itself is strenuous. The final uphill ascent in the hot sun after the tiring trek to that point is what makes it memorable as being difficult. You're already tired by the time you get to this point so it makes it that much tougher.

              I would definitely bring plenty of water and highly suggest a portable water filtering device to refill your bladders. We did this hike in August and went through a lot of water and it was great not having to carry extra having the filter with us. Also make sure you bring plenty of food to keep your energy levels up, I small dry bag to keep that stuff and some dry cloths in is also recommended as there are some areas where you might be swimming and that water is "Cold" even in August!

              --
              Jeff Schaber
              ------------------

              Be who you are, say what you feel.
              Because those that mind don't matter
              and those that matter don't mind!

              ~Dr. Seuss~
            • mojave_ben
              The Subway is not all that demanding, but it takes time to overcome each obstacle, especially with a larger group and less experience, and you re just tired by
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 4, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                The Subway is not all that demanding, but it takes time to overcome each obstacle, especially with a larger group and less experience, and you're just tired by the time you got down to the end. The climb out is a bit of a slog but it's really not killer. That being said, when I did it our slow group of 5 with a few other parties passing us and plenty of time to explore and take photos took on the order of 10 hours. But we'd probably had taken the same amount of time if it were shorter as we'd just spend more time in the scenic stream bed.

                You do know about the permit system, right?

                Subway was my first technical anything with ropes. Went with a friend who had never done canyoneering but had plenty of climbing experience and we'd been out to Red Rocks a few times for some practice raps, and we all had harnesses. Note that one of us was about 9 yrs old at the time. People get through there with amazing disregard for safety but we were careful.

                The route is pretty clear if you have any good description (and I think the NPS recently marked the upper route on the slickrock a bit better). Once you're in the canyon, there's not much chance to get lost :)

                You need to be confident of your ability to come to a rap point, recognize the bolted anchor (usually two bolts with a chain, maybe has changed now), know how to safely attach to that and rap down, and then be able to retrieve your rope. If you can do that, you're good to go - for a technical canyon this is really low grade.

                I was thrilled to get in there and have progressed a bit since in my technical knowledge, but even though I am a gonzo hiker I would have been intimidated on my own.

                But know that even though it's pretty good for novices, someone died there last year. Last member in a party of two apparently got stuck rapping down through a water fall (you need not rap in the water, there is a dry place very soon after you cross the water), tried to cut his harness off (getting chilled in the flow), got tangled, flipped, and died. Person on the ground was unable to get up to help at that point. So....

                But it is insanely beautiful and you'll probably encounter teens in sneakers just jumping off all the obstacles...
              • lady38shooter
                I ve since found out 2 of the peeps in our group rappel, so I m more confident on that end. My husband and I will still take lessons over here. Otherwise, it
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 4, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  I've since found out 2 of the peeps in our group rappel, so I'm more confident on that end. My husband and I will still take lessons over here. Otherwise, it sounds like physically, it's not out of our realm.

                  Thanks!

                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Eva -- To answer your last question, you sound fit and active doing hikes like Havasupai, so you should be just fine especially if you get a good early morning start. I first did the hike over a decade ago when I was in my not-so-fit days and I survived, although I remember the last two miles of open wash and the final uphill exit were torture. This hike inspired me to get it together and it's really not that bad on my body any more. :)
                  >
                  > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Jeff,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for the alternate forum as well. I will check it out and make a post there, too. With any luck, we'll find someone who'll want to make the trip with us.
                  > >
                  > > We are taking your advice and will check into repelling classes. After visiting Canyon Collective, I have a feeling it will come in handy!
                  > >
                  > > I understand the Subway is a 9 mile hike. As for being fit, we're packers, so I believe we should be fit enough? We've packed Havasupai several times and have made the trip from camp to the Colorado, which I believe is 9 miles one way? I suppose "fit" is relative. We're not out running marathons!
                  > >
                  > > Anyhow, thank you for the other forum. I'm keeping my fingers crossed we turn out lucky as you did!
                  > >
                  > > Eva
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Schaber <jeffschaber@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Eva,
                  > > >
                  > > > Joe offers some great advise. You may also want to check out the forums
                  > > > over at www.Bogley.com There are many locals that follow that forum and you
                  > > > can probably meet someone there that has experience with the Subway. As Joe
                  > > > said, guide service is not allowed but if you have a friend that knows the
                  > > > route and you're not paying them then it's not really a service.
                  > > >
                  > > > We were in your shoes a couple of years ago and did this very thing. Took a
                  > > > lot of the advise here and went to a local climbing wall (even though I had
                  > > > rappelling experience) to get familiar with the ropes and equipment, met a
                  > > > great local couple from St. George on Bogley that had done the Subway many
                  > > > times to help us stay on the route and it was a great experience and have 2
                  > > > new fantastic friends from the trip.
                  > > >
                  > > > The tough part of the Subway is finding the entrance and exit assuming
                  > > > you're physically up to the challenge. Top to bottom it's a 9 mile hike and
                  > > > very hot in August. The rappels are not the most difficult in the park but
                  > > > are not to be taken lightly either You can purchase about all of the gear
                  > > > you need for about than $100 and you'll have it to practice with.
                  > > >
                  > > > In my opinion, the Subway is a must do if you can swing the logistics and I
                  > > > definitely recommend the top to bottom route. Good luck in your planning, I
                  > > > wish I were joining you!
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > Jeff Schaber
                  > > > ------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > Be who you are, say what you feel.
                  > > > Because those that mind don't matter
                  > > > and those that matter don't mind!
                  > > >
                  > > > ~Dr. Seuss~
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • lady38shooter
                  Thanks for the note. We appreciate your time. Yep, we know about the permit system. I ll work on that one tomorrow. The more I dig, and read these replies,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 4, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for the note. We appreciate your time. Yep, we know about the permit system. I'll work on that one tomorrow. The more I dig, and read these replies, the more I'm learning.

                    I have since found out that 2 of our peeps in the group rappel, so I'm a lot more confident knowing that. My husband and I will still take lessons beforehand. We are all backpackers and have learned safety is #1 at all cost. It is very, very unfortunate someone had to learn that the hard way. I cannot imagine being the person on the ground watching her husband pass away. Terrible.

                    Anyhow....thanks again! We are definitely looking forward to experiencing the beauty of the subway!



                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben" <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The Subway is not all that demanding, but it takes time to overcome each obstacle, especially with a larger group and less experience, and you're just tired by the time you got down to the end. The climb out is a bit of a slog but it's really not killer. That being said, when I did it our slow group of 5 with a few other parties passing us and plenty of time to explore and take photos took on the order of 10 hours. But we'd probably had taken the same amount of time if it were shorter as we'd just spend more time in the scenic stream bed.
                    >
                    > You do know about the permit system, right?
                    >
                    > Subway was my first technical anything with ropes. Went with a friend who had never done canyoneering but had plenty of climbing experience and we'd been out to Red Rocks a few times for some practice raps, and we all had harnesses. Note that one of us was about 9 yrs old at the time. People get through there with amazing disregard for safety but we were careful.
                    >
                    > The route is pretty clear if you have any good description (and I think the NPS recently marked the upper route on the slickrock a bit better). Once you're in the canyon, there's not much chance to get lost :)
                    >
                    > You need to be confident of your ability to come to a rap point, recognize the bolted anchor (usually two bolts with a chain, maybe has changed now), know how to safely attach to that and rap down, and then be able to retrieve your rope. If you can do that, you're good to go - for a technical canyon this is really low grade.
                    >
                    > I was thrilled to get in there and have progressed a bit since in my technical knowledge, but even though I am a gonzo hiker I would have been intimidated on my own.
                    >
                    > But know that even though it's pretty good for novices, someone died there last year. Last member in a party of two apparently got stuck rapping down through a water fall (you need not rap in the water, there is a dry place very soon after you cross the water), tried to cut his harness off (getting chilled in the flow), got tangled, flipped, and died. Person on the ground was unable to get up to help at that point. So....
                    >
                    > But it is insanely beautiful and you'll probably encounter teens in sneakers just jumping off all the obstacles...
                    >
                  • lady38shooter
                    Thanks Jeff! I keep hearing the same thing about the last bit of the hike...hard, hard and hard! We are from Arizona and are very familiar with heat and
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 4, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Jeff! I keep hearing the same thing about the last bit of the hike...hard, hard and hard!

                      We are from Arizona and are very familiar with heat and exhaustion. We will definitely bring a method be it filter or pills to turn nasty water into potable water. Hydration is key in any summer hike.

                      We were thinking about bringing one of the jet boils with us and some form of freeze dried food. It sounds like it could be up to a 10, possibly 12 hour hike. Havasupai to Colorado is about that long of a day and we always brought food with us.

                      Good note on the dry clothes. Have that down as well.

                      Thanks much!

                      Eva

                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Schaber <jeffschaber@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > "last two miles of open wash and the final uphill exit were torture." You
                      > hit the nail on the head with that statement Joe! A lot of back and forth
                      > stream crossings with very uneven terrain which in itself is strenuous. The
                      > final uphill ascent in the hot sun after the tiring trek to that point is
                      > what makes it memorable as being difficult. You're already tired by the
                      > time you get to this point so it makes it that much tougher.
                      >
                      > I would definitely bring plenty of water and highly suggest a portable
                      > water filtering device to refill your bladders. We did this hike in August
                      > and went through a lot of water and it was great not having to carry extra
                      > having the filter with us. Also make sure you bring plenty of food to keep
                      > your energy levels up, I small dry bag to keep that stuff and some dry
                      > cloths in is also recommended as there are some areas where you might be
                      > swimming and that water is "Cold" even in August!
                      >
                      > --
                      > Jeff Schaber
                      > ------------------
                      >
                      > Be who you are, say what you feel.
                      > Because those that mind don't matter
                      > and those that matter don't mind!
                      >
                      > ~Dr. Seuss~
                      >
                    • Joe Braun
                      Awesome! Sounds like things are falling into place. Have a great hike! The Subway is worth all of the red tape and preparation; it s a very unique and
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 5, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Awesome! Sounds like things are falling into place. Have a great hike! The Subway is worth all of the red tape and preparation; it's a very unique and beautiful stretch of canyon; you'll have a great time.

                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've since found out 2 of the peeps in our group rappel, so I'm more confident on that end. My husband and I will still take lessons over here. Otherwise, it sounds like physically, it's not out of our realm.
                        >
                        > Thanks!
                        >
                        > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Eva -- To answer your last question, you sound fit and active doing hikes like Havasupai, so you should be just fine especially if you get a good early morning start. I first did the hike over a decade ago when I was in my not-so-fit days and I survived, although I remember the last two miles of open wash and the final uphill exit were torture. This hike inspired me to get it together and it's really not that bad on my body any more. :)
                        > >
                        > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "lady38shooter" <lady38shooter@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Jeff,
                        > > >
                        > > > Thank you for the alternate forum as well. I will check it out and make a post there, too. With any luck, we'll find someone who'll want to make the trip with us.
                        > > >
                        > > > We are taking your advice and will check into repelling classes. After visiting Canyon Collective, I have a feeling it will come in handy!
                        > > >
                        > > > I understand the Subway is a 9 mile hike. As for being fit, we're packers, so I believe we should be fit enough? We've packed Havasupai several times and have made the trip from camp to the Colorado, which I believe is 9 miles one way? I suppose "fit" is relative. We're not out running marathons!
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyhow, thank you for the other forum. I'm keeping my fingers crossed we turn out lucky as you did!
                        > > >
                        > > > Eva
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Schaber <jeffschaber@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Eva,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Joe offers some great advise. You may also want to check out the forums
                        > > > > over at www.Bogley.com There are many locals that follow that forum and you
                        > > > > can probably meet someone there that has experience with the Subway. As Joe
                        > > > > said, guide service is not allowed but if you have a friend that knows the
                        > > > > route and you're not paying them then it's not really a service.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > We were in your shoes a couple of years ago and did this very thing. Took a
                        > > > > lot of the advise here and went to a local climbing wall (even though I had
                        > > > > rappelling experience) to get familiar with the ropes and equipment, met a
                        > > > > great local couple from St. George on Bogley that had done the Subway many
                        > > > > times to help us stay on the route and it was a great experience and have 2
                        > > > > new fantastic friends from the trip.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The tough part of the Subway is finding the entrance and exit assuming
                        > > > > you're physically up to the challenge. Top to bottom it's a 9 mile hike and
                        > > > > very hot in August. The rappels are not the most difficult in the park but
                        > > > > are not to be taken lightly either You can purchase about all of the gear
                        > > > > you need for about than $100 and you'll have it to practice with.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In my opinion, the Subway is a must do if you can swing the logistics and I
                        > > > > definitely recommend the top to bottom route. Good luck in your planning, I
                        > > > > wish I were joining you!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > Jeff Schaber
                        > > > > ------------------
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Be who you are, say what you feel.
                        > > > > Because those that mind don't matter
                        > > > > and those that matter don't mind!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ~Dr. Seuss~
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.