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Re: Another death in Zion :( -- Angels Landing

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  • mojave_ben
    The quote about according to the Park s wet site 5 people have died since July 2006 appears to be incorrect. What I see is the following: Q. How many people
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 9 8:45 AM
      The quote about "according to the Park's wet site 5 people have died
      since July 2006" appears to be incorrect.

      What I see is the following:

      "Q. How many people have fallen off Angels Landing?
      A. We don't have exact numbers, possibly about 5. More people have
      died at Emerald Pools (7) than Angels Landing."
      (from http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-asked-questions-about-zions-
      hiking-trails.htm)

      That figure is from the establishment of the park (park in 1919,
      national monument in 1909)

      I think the article also implies that the park does not adequately
      warn people about the dangers. It appears to me that it does. Here
      is an example: "Strenuous hike to a panoramic viewpoint. This trail
      is not recommended for anyone fearful of heights." (from
      http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/MakingTheMostOfYourTime.htm)

      I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
      I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
      At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
      Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
      from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
      that there are other nice places to go at that point will hopefully
      make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
      Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
      main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.

      But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
      to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
    • luvs_to_hike
      I don t think it s a dangerous trail compared to many of the routes they could take, but it is a busy one! Perhaps the shuttle drivers could point out how to
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 9 9:02 AM

        I don't think it's a dangerous trail compared to many of the routes they could take, but it is a busy one!  Perhaps the shuttle drivers could point out how to stay safe when on Zion's sandstone. 

         

        PS. Gossip (or incorrect "facts") before the news comes out does tend to get those involved with the accidents upset.  There is a lot they have to deal with.


        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
         
        > I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
        > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
        > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
        > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
        > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
        > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
        > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
        > R
        >

      • Bo
        Yes, a very terrible thing to happen once again. In my opinion what will cause the park to consider closing the trail would be possible lawsuits brought about
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 9 9:04 AM
          Yes, a very terrible thing to happen once again.

          In my opinion what will cause the park to consider closing the trail
          would be possible lawsuits brought about because of "pure speculation"
          brought about by the media and individuals as to the cause of the
          accident. Not only is it the effort to sensationalize what has
          happened, but can adversely affect public opinion, shatter the lives of
          the victims family (above and beyond the devistating impact already
          being dealt with). Washington County (required by state law) is leading
          an investigation, along with the Park pursuing their own investigation
          as to the cause of this horrible accident, counciling is being provided
          to the families and friends, but already individuals and the media have
          published and promoted the "cause" over the internet. Photo Taking,
          Goofing around...etc, etc. Maybe,,,, just maybe, he just lost footing
          or some other reason?

          I say...let the state do their job, let the park do their job and let
          the families and friends of the deceased have some respect with silence
          and our condolences.

          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "adkramoo"
          <adkramoo@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
          > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
          > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
          > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
          > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
          > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
          > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
          > R
          >
        • luvs_to_hike
          Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do they? Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to the edge? ... the ...
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 9 9:04 AM

            Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do they?  Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to the edge?


            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...> wrote:
            > Absolutely, Ramoo! Very sad.
            >
            > > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
            > > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
            > > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
            > > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
            > > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
            > > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
            >
            > I have been hiking Angels Landing since 1976 -- it's one of my favorite
            > places to hike and photograph. But I have been shocked over the past
            > decade how much more crowded it has gotten. The amount of people makes
            > it look like a sale day at the mall and it gets me nervous to see so
            > many people zipping up and down the trail not really noticing how
            > exposed this hike is. It's not technical, but it is serious business
            > with serious consequences. I feel and can relate personally to this
            > tragedy because I am guilty of "going for the shot" and temporarily
            > forgetting about my footing or safety on numerous occasions. But geeze,
            > six deaths in 2006? Angels is reaching Lady Mountain status. Let's hope
            > it doesn't eventually get closed as a danger to the public.
            >
            > My heart goes out to the family and friends. Absolutely tragic day,
            > especially on the heels of the Heaps tragedy. Please be safe everyone! -
            > Joe
            >

          • luvs_to_hike
            I took my daughter and Granddaughter on it a couple of years ago. I never noticed just how sheer the hike was until I had them with me. I left them at Scout
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 9 9:08 AM

              I took my daughter and Granddaughter on it a couple of years ago.  I never noticed just how sheer the hike was until I had them with me.  I left them at Scout Lookout, but after I left they did the trail without my knowing.  On the way back I was behind them on the exposed parts.  I was not thrilled they did it!  Kids! 8-|  Even on the parts that looked safe then, when I look back at the photos were quite exposed!


              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben" <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
              >
              > The quote about "according to the Park's wet site 5 people have died
              > since July 2006" appears to be incorrect.
              >
              > What I see is the following:
              >
              > "Q. How many people have fallen off Angels Landing?
              > A. We don't have exact numbers, possibly about 5. More people have
              > died at Emerald Pools (7) than Angels Landing."
              > (from http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-asked-questions-about-zions-
              > hiking-trails.htm)
              >
              > That figure is from the establishment of the park (park in 1919,
              > national monument in 1909)
              >
              > I think the article also implies that the park does not adequately
              > warn people about the dangers. It appears to me that it does. Here
              > is an example: "Strenuous hike to a panoramic viewpoint. This trail
              > is not recommended for anyone fearful of heights." (from
              > http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/MakingTheMostOfYourTime.htm)
              >
              > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
              > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
              > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
              > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
              > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
              > that there are other nice places to go at that point will hopefully
              > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
              > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
              > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
              >
              > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
              > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
              >

            • claytongarypalmer
              A co-worker also witnessed the fall and said it was the most horrible thing he had ever saw!--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, ~*~News Today~*~
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 9 9:26 AM
                A co-worker also witnessed the fall and said it was the most horrible
                thing he had ever saw!--- In
                Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, ~*~News Today~*~
                <mail_for_tylas@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hiker plunges from a trail in Zion Park
                >
                > A Saint Louis man fell to his death Friday while descending the
                Angels Landing trail in Zion National Park.
                > Search and rescue crews found the body of Barry Goldstein,
                53, shortly after he had fallen several hundred feet from the trail,
                said park spokesman David Eaker.
                > "The man was visiting the park and had family with him," said
                Eaker.
                > Mike Farley, an eyewitness to the accident, said Goldstein
                had been traveling with a large group that appeared to be a wedding
                party.
                > Farley and other adults were accompanying a church group of
                14- and 15-year-old boys and were eating lunch at a nearby peak when
                they witnessed the accident.
                > "We were sitting there and couldn't believe what were were
                watching," said Farley. "It was a sheer dropoff. There were no second
                chances when he went off."
                > Farley and his group immediately dialed 911, describing
                witnessing the scene as "unbelievable.
                > document.writeln(AAMB6);
                > "They had left 10 minutes before us and were crossing
                narrow neck. The guy (Goldstein) had been standing near the edge ...
                the man who was next to him before he fell later told me that he
                (Goldstein) was goofing off near the edge and the ground crumbled as
                he stepped back," said Farley. "We could see him fall.... Just
                like that he was gone."
                > Washington County sheriff's deputies and park officials are
                still investigating the case, Eaker said.
                > According to the park's Web site, five other people have died
                while hiking Angels Landing since July 2006. The hike is described as
                strenuous with steep trails that provide hikers with "spectacular
                views of Zion Canyon."
                > A sixth death not accounted for on the Web site took place in
                August when Bernadette Vandermeer, 29, of Las Vegas accidentally fell
                to her death while hiking the trail with her husband.
                > Park officials closed the trail for a short time following
                Friday's accident but reopened it to hikers later that afternoon.
                >
                > http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660228165,00.html
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                Yahoo! FareChase.
                >
              • claytongarypalmer
                When I made it to the top a couple months ago, I thought it was not so bad. But coming back down from the Landing looks scarier than going up and I don t want
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 9 9:28 AM
                  When I made it to the top a couple months ago, I thought it was not
                  so bad. But coming back down from the Landing looks scarier than
                  going up and I don't want to do it again.--- In
                  Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                  <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I took my daughter and Granddaughter on it a couple of years ago. I
                  > never noticed just how sheer the hike was until I had them with
                  me. I
                  > left them at Scout Lookout, but after I left they did the trail
                  without
                  > my knowing. On the way back I was behind them on the exposed
                  parts. I
                  > was not thrilled they did it! Kids! [8-|] Even on the parts that
                  > looked safe then, when I look back at the photos were quite exposed!
                  >
                  >
                  > <http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/images/angels-
                  landing-u_\
                  > jpg.jpg>
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben"
                  > <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The quote about "according to the Park's wet site 5 people have
                  died
                  > > since July 2006" appears to be incorrect.
                  > >
                  > > What I see is the following:
                  > >
                  > > "Q. How many people have fallen off Angels Landing?
                  > > A. We don't have exact numbers, possibly about 5. More people have
                  > > died at Emerald Pools (7) than Angels Landing."
                  > > (from http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-asked-questions-about-
                  zions-
                  > > hiking-trails.htm)
                  > >
                  > > That figure is from the establishment of the park (park in 1919,
                  > > national monument in 1909)
                  > >
                  > > I think the article also implies that the park does not adequately
                  > > warn people about the dangers. It appears to me that it does. Here
                  > > is an example: "Strenuous hike to a panoramic viewpoint. This
                  trail
                  > > is not recommended for anyone fearful of heights." (from
                  > > http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/MakingTheMostOfYourTime.htm)
                  > >
                  > > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                  > > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                  > > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                  > > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                  > > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                  > > that there are other nice places to go at that point will
                  hopefully
                  > > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                  > > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                  > > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                  > >
                  > > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                  > > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                  > >
                  >
                • gootwan
                  I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch the first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You ll be rewarded with cool temps, an amazing view
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 9 9:45 AM
                    I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch the
                    first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You'll be rewarded with cool temps,
                    an amazing view with the sun coming over the cliffs, and you'll almost
                    have the trail to yourself, both on the way up and back.

                    It's the only way I would ever climb AL during the peak season.

                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben"
                    <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                    > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                    > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                    > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                    > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                    > that there are other nice places to go at that point will hopefully
                    > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                    > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                    > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                    >
                    > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                    > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                    >
                  • luvs_to_hike
                    When I went up there with the kids (not suggested though)... it was late in the day. There were thunderstorms all around us, but above Angels Landing it was
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 9 10:18 AM

                      When I went up there with the kids (not suggested though)... it was late in the day.  There were thunderstorms all around us, but above Angels Landing it was clear.  It was dark when we got back down to the shuttle though.


                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "gootwan" <j.egertson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch the
                      > first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You'll be rewarded with cool temps,
                      > an amazing view with the sun coming over the cliffs, and you'll almost
                      > have the trail to yourself, both on the way up and back.
                      >
                      > It's the only way I would ever climb AL during the peak season.

                    • garyclaytonpalmer
                      Yes, the early morning is the best tim. With sunrise about 5am now and the top of the Angels Landing being in full sun by 7-8 am it gets awfully hot on the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 9 10:19 AM
                        Yes, the early morning is the best tim. With sunrise about 5am now
                        and the top of the Angels Landing being in full sun by 7-8 am it gets
                        awfully hot on the trail in mid morning. Too many people start in mid
                        afternoon when the sun is at its worst. Thats the best time to do the
                        Narrows but not any of the uphill hikes to any where around the rims.-
                        -- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "gootwan"
                        <j.egertson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch
                        the
                        > first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You'll be rewarded with cool
                        temps,
                        > an amazing view with the sun coming over the cliffs, and you'll
                        almost
                        > have the trail to yourself, both on the way up and back.
                        >
                        > It's the only way I would ever climb AL during the peak season.
                        >
                        > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben"
                        > <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                        > > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                        > > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                        > > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                        > > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                        > > that there are other nice places to go at that point will
                        hopefully
                        > > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                        > > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                        > > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                        > >
                        > > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                        > > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                        > >
                        >
                      • Bo
                        The last fatality was at the viewpoint Joe. ... the ... article ... shouldn t ... were ... it. ... our
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 9 10:59 AM
                          The last fatality was at the viewpoint Joe.

                          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > > Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do
                          > they?
                          > > Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to
                          the
                          > > edge?
                          >
                          > I would consider those points to be one and the same, but, the last
                          > fatality that I know of was NOT at the viewpoint.
                          >
                          > In the interest of being senstive though, if that original news
                          article
                          > is peppered with speculation and misinformation, perhaps we
                          shouldn't
                          > have it splattered on all of our chat groups. It's worded as if it
                          were
                          > already "fact", and it's only promoting us to think and talk about
                          it.
                          > Incidents like this always sadden the community and make us ponder
                          our
                          > own risks and responsibilities. :(
                          >
                        • Bo
                          It just wasn t published in the media.....hurrah. ... the ... article ... shouldn t ... were ... it. ... our
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 9 11:02 AM
                            It just wasn't published in the media.....hurrah.

                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > > Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do
                            > they?
                            > > Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to
                            the
                            > > edge?
                            >
                            > I would consider those points to be one and the same, but, the last
                            > fatality that I know of was NOT at the viewpoint.
                            >
                            > In the interest of being senstive though, if that original news
                            article
                            > is peppered with speculation and misinformation, perhaps we
                            shouldn't
                            > have it splattered on all of our chat groups. It's worded as if it
                            were
                            > already "fact", and it's only promoting us to think and talk about
                            it.
                            > Incidents like this always sadden the community and make us ponder
                            our
                            > own risks and responsibilities. :(
                            >
                          • Joni
                            ... while ... the ... MY NIECE WAS UPCLOSE AND I HEAR SHE IS NOT DOING WELL..SHE WAS DADYS GIRL,, AND JUST GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 9 4:22 PM
                              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "adkramoo"
                              <adkramoo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                              > <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > > Another very sad tradegy! [:(]
                              >
                              > > "According to the park's Web site, five other people have died
                              while
                              > > hiking Angels Landing since July 2006. "
                              > >
                              > > That's quite a few in such a short time?
                              >
                              > I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
                              > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in
                              the
                              > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
                              > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
                              > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
                              > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
                              > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
                              > R
                              >
                              MY NIECE WAS UPCLOSE AND I HEAR SHE IS NOT DOING WELL..SHE WAS DADYS
                              GIRL,, AND JUST GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE
                            • mojave_ben
                              ... let ... silence ... I will certainly second that and to the extent that I may have jumped to conclusions, I apologize. Anyone who has the motivation and
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 10 6:41 AM
                                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Bo"
                                <bomabro84738@...> wrote:

                                > I say...let the state do their job, let the park do their job and
                                let
                                > the families and friends of the deceased have some respect with
                                silence
                                > and our condolences.

                                I will certainly second that and to the extent that I may have
                                jumped to conclusions, I apologize. Anyone who has the motivation
                                and the energy to get on their feet and get up there is a kindered
                                spirit. I do think it's important to keep the perspective right;
                                5 deaths in the last year on Angels Landing would be troublesome.

                                But, avoiding speculation, if you're the kind of person who puts
                                yourself at some (hopefully calculated) risks, as I will admit to,
                                we may be able to learn from the unfortunate mistakes of others.
                                Hence the value of deconstructing these accidents. Once the
                                headlines are gone, if anyone hears a better verified account,
                                please post.
                              • luvs_to_hike
                                Zion spokesman warns of Angels Landing dangers The Salt Lake Tribune Though popular with hikers for its expansive canyon views, the park s Angels Landing trail
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 10 8:30 AM
                                  Zion spokesman warns of Angels Landing dangers
                                  The Salt Lake Tribune

                                  Though popular with hikers for its expansive
                                  canyon views, the park's Angels Landing trail once again proved deadly
                                  last week as two people died in unrelated incidents.
                                  Washington County sheriff's deputies and National Park officials
                                  are investigating the Friday death of 53-year-old Barry Goldstein, a
                                  Missouri man who was hiking with family members when he fell 1,000
                                  feet off a cliff. An unidentified 60-year-old man died Saturday
                                  afternoon from an apparent heart attack while hiking the trail, said
                                  park spokesman Tom Haraden.
                                  It remains unclear why Goldstein, who was in good physical
                                  condition, fell to his death, Haraden said. Goldstein was hiking in
                                  the park around noon when witnesses saw him fall from the trail at a
                                  point between Scouts Lookout and the summit of Angels Landing.
                                  "We don't know if he tripped, or was dizzy, or what made him
                                  fall," Haraden said. "We'll interview witnesses and ask about his
                                  hiking experience, abilities and frame of mind."
                                  The Angels Landing trail is about 4 feet wide in some places, but
                                  eventually becomes a knife-edge that drops off 800 feet on one side
                                  and 1,200 feet on the other. Hikers can grab onto a chain during the
                                  narrowest part of the hike, one of the most popular in Zion, according
                                  to Haraden. But a sign at the base of the trail warns, "Falls from
                                  cliffs on this trail have resulted in death."
                                  "We
                                  feel we are doing pretty much all we can do," Haraden said. "We
                                  provide trail, flood and weather information in lots of different
                                  locations in the park. We make sure [hikers] are informed. Everybody's
                                  safety is their own responsibility."
                                  Park rangers say they discovered Goldstein's body approximately
                                  1,000 feet below Angels Landing, and his remains will be autopsied.
                                  Authorities have interviewed several witnesses, including family
                                  members who were visiting the park with Goldstein as part of a family
                                  reunion, said Stephanie Coots, a Washington County Sheriff's Office
                                  spokeswoman.
                                  Judson Dolman, a St. George resident who hikes extensively in the
                                  park, described Angels Landing as a trail not for those afraid of heights.
                                  "It's incredible, but can be scary where the trail gets narrow,"
                                  he said.
                                  Dolman added he once saw a boy on the trail freeze up while
                                  holding onto one of a series of chains anchored to the rock. "For a
                                  while, he wouldn't go forward or back," he said.
                                  Hurricane resident Lori West, a regular visitor to the park, said
                                  local shuttle drivers always warn people about the Angels Landing hike.
                                  "In the end, people have to be responsible for themselves," she said.
                                  The deaths marked two fatalities on Angels Landing in one week. A
                                  third death occurred elsewhere in the park on Monday, when 48-year-old
                                  Keith Biederman, of Garden Grove, Calif., fell 300 feet as he
                                  rappelled in the Emerald Pools area of the park about 10:30 p.m.,
                                  according to the Washington County Sheriff's Office.
                                  Yet changes at the park, which draws about 2.6 million visitors
                                  each year, are unlikely in the wake of the deaths, Haraden said.
                                  Trails are marked and parkgoers are encouraged to act cautiously while
                                  traversing the area's steep cliffs.
                                  "You can get hurt anywhere," he said. "You can trip on a curb,
                                  fall and get hurt badly. National parks are just the great outdoors,
                                  but you have to be careful. When you trip on a rock in Angels Landing,
                                  you're 800 to 1,400 feet above the ground."
                                  ngonzalez@...
                                  Past Angels Landing deaths
                                  Barry Goldstein is the sixth person to die in a fall from Angels
                                  Landing in recent years:
                                  * Jeffery Robert Dwyer, 28, of Sandpoint, Idaho, died in a
                                  150-foot fall in 1989.
                                  * In 1997, a botched rappel led to the death of climber John
                                  Christensen, 36, of Provo.
                                  * George Sender, 63, of Illertissen, Germany, fell while hiking in
                                  2000.
                                  * In 2004, Kristoffer Jones, 14, of California, fell during a Boy
                                  Scout troop outing. Officials said another Scout had bet Kristoffer to
                                  crawl out onto a ledge and scratch his name into the side of a cliff.
                                  * A Las Vegas woman, 29-year-old Bernadette Vandermeer, fell while
                                  hiking with her husband.



                                • Michael Blitch
                                  It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as in the case of the 14
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 10 5:51 PM
                                    It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                    lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as in
                                    the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                    deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                    movies; "He chose poorly".
                                  • luvs_to_hike
                                    I like the quote on your profile. Favorite Quote: Any mans death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 10 5:54 PM

                                      I like the quote on your profile.

                                      Favorite Quote:
                                      Any mans death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. -John Donne


                                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                      > lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as in
                                      > the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                      > deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                      > movies; "He chose poorly".
                                      >

                                    • Bo
                                      Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died because of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you ought to reserve your
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 10 9:14 PM
                                        Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died because
                                        of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you ought to
                                        reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak face to
                                        face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                        and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since you
                                        are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?


                                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                        <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                        > lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as
                                        in
                                        > the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                        > deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                        > movies; "He chose poorly".
                                        >
                                      • Michael Blitch
                                        When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your assessment should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or not. Only being able
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 10 10:00 PM
                                          When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your assessment
                                          should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or not.
                                          Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in order to
                                          attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the only way
                                          you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if it was
                                          your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective. Too many
                                          people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                          subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult issue all
                                          of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.

                                          What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start yelling
                                          out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is forced to
                                          shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to earn
                                          votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do something
                                          about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that is not
                                          beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some hidden
                                          danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed a 'knife
                                          edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death. It
                                          isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't people
                                          make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data comes in
                                          then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple scientific
                                          method.

                                          Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk driving,
                                          and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their family. It
                                          was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their lives. More
                                          often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                          sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same tone
                                          when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody else, then
                                          one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo hooing
                                          will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                          understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally pushed
                                          over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the person that died.

                                          I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you attempt more
                                          effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I just came
                                          from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and believe me
                                          watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at least was
                                          the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of stuff. Get on
                                          with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a loved one
                                          died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I wouldn't
                                          want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.



                                          Bo wrote:
                                          > Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died because
                                          > of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you ought to
                                          > reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak face to
                                          > face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                          > and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since you
                                          > are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                          > <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                          >> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                          >> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as
                                          > in
                                          >> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                          >> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                          >> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                        • Bo
                                          You re right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is a public forum and that freedom of post applies. I often get the data you refer to first
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 11 6:40 AM
                                            You're right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is a
                                            public forum and that freedom of "post" applies. I often get
                                            the "data" you refer to first hand and it baffles me sometimes when
                                            the "data" you refer to becomes gospel.

                                            Emotions? I guess. Sensitive? certainly.........Why? The County
                                            hasn't even released their investigative results; The NPS hasn't
                                            released their investigative results from fridays incident, yet the
                                            Tribune wasn't even there and their results of investigation were
                                            released not even 24 hours after the incident. Already folks have
                                            made their decisions of how it happened based on media results and
                                            4th hand information.

                                            Tuesday I helped gather information on mondays incident. Even the
                                            results of this investigation haven't been released. Once again I can
                                            surmise what happened, but I don't know for sure?

                                            The young boy that fell off Angels Landing? I was there...I can
                                            surmise. Investigation ongoing...yet we still have made our decision
                                            based on what we've heard.

                                            My second recovery which took place over 9 years ago in Zion is still
                                            not a conclusive statement? Was she pushed or did she just make a
                                            stupid blunder? We may never know? I have an opinion, but would
                                            rather not state it because I don't have all of the facts.

                                            Maybe what I'm trying to say Michael is that I believe rather than
                                            making hasty comments, I would rather be cautious until all the facts
                                            are laid out in front of me.

                                            Thanks for your comments and putting me straight.



                                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                            <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your
                                            assessment
                                            > should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or
                                            not.
                                            > Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in order
                                            to
                                            > attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the only
                                            way
                                            > you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if it
                                            was
                                            > your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective. Too
                                            many
                                            > people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                            > subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult issue
                                            all
                                            > of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.
                                            >
                                            > What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start
                                            yelling
                                            > out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is forced
                                            to
                                            > shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to
                                            earn
                                            > votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do
                                            something
                                            > about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that is
                                            not
                                            > beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some
                                            hidden
                                            > danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed
                                            a 'knife
                                            > edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death. It
                                            > isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't
                                            people
                                            > make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data comes
                                            in
                                            > then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple
                                            scientific
                                            > method.
                                            >
                                            > Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk
                                            driving,
                                            > and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their family.
                                            It
                                            > was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their lives.
                                            More
                                            > often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                            > sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same
                                            tone
                                            > when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody else,
                                            then
                                            > one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo
                                            hooing
                                            > will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                            > understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally
                                            pushed
                                            > over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the person
                                            that died.
                                            >
                                            > I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you attempt
                                            more
                                            > effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I just
                                            came
                                            > from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and believe
                                            me
                                            > watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at least
                                            was
                                            > the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of stuff.
                                            Get on
                                            > with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a loved
                                            one
                                            > died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I
                                            wouldn't
                                            > want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Bo wrote:
                                            > > Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died
                                            because
                                            > > of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you
                                            ought to
                                            > > reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak
                                            face to
                                            > > face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                            > > and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since
                                            you
                                            > > are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                            > > <mblitch@> wrote:
                                            > >> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their
                                            own
                                            > >> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism
                                            (such as
                                            > > in
                                            > >> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead
                                            the
                                            > >> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana
                                            Jones
                                            > >> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                            >
                                          • Michael Blitch
                                            Bo wrote: I appreciate the response, however I was not trying to put anyone in their place , merely stating a personal opinion. I ve been involved or privy to
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 11 7:20 AM
                                              Bo wrote:
                                              I appreciate the response, however I was not trying to put anyone 'in
                                              their place', merely stating a personal opinion. I've been involved or
                                              privy to only a few accident investigations, mostly in the underwater
                                              cave diving community in Florida. Such issues about in almost nay area
                                              of accident investigation no matter the sport or cause. Some believe
                                              nothing should ever be released until the 'official word' comes out,
                                              others want everything ASAP. The NTSB can take years to release report
                                              because it takes a LONG time to gather their information (i.e. find all
                                              the pieces, start correlating transcript timestamps, weather logs, etc).
                                              We all need to understand that news outlets will speculate cause when
                                              few facts are available, otherwise they simply could not exist. at what
                                              point does one write the story. As long as people understand this and do
                                              not assume it is always fact, then I think we will be ok.

                                              I think we expect and hope that our leaders can make objective decisions
                                              for the betterment of the public. It is the the ethical kind of
                                              questions such as 'do I send this person in on a suicide mission to save
                                              hundreds' that we expect even low level officers to make on the
                                              battlefield. So I think even if a family member is involved that the
                                              decision should be the same. People are inquisitive and it is important
                                              to understand what happened as a means of learning.

                                              I do not envy those that have to do the recoveries and investigations,
                                              but extremely appreciate those that are willing to do it because that
                                              share the love and enjoyment of the area/sport and are willing to
                                              sacrifice time to protect it. How long should an accident investigation
                                              take in this kind of case or that of the boy. Once you interview
                                              witnesses, study the area, then what other aspects could change? Unless
                                              someone recounts what they said, how long does one wait. I would guess
                                              that in such cases the park just would want to wait a while so they may
                                              quietly release a report so not to cause additional negative publicity.
                                              Anyone that participates in 'killer sports' understands the danger of
                                              some selfish and inconsiderate lawmaker that would trade our hobbies and
                                              love for not even a month's worth of public exposure. I skydive, cave
                                              dive, solo hike, go spelunking, and do other things that such people
                                              thinks needs to be destroyed in order to protect me from myself. We just
                                              cannot think that being quiet about things will keep us protected and
                                              under the radar.

                                              > You're right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is a
                                              > public forum and that freedom of "post" applies. I often get
                                              > the "data" you refer to first hand and it baffles me sometimes when
                                              > the "data" you refer to becomes gospel.
                                              >
                                              > Emotions? I guess. Sensitive? certainly.........Why? The County
                                              > hasn't even released their investigative results; The NPS hasn't
                                              > released their investigative results from fridays incident, yet the
                                              > Tribune wasn't even there and their results of investigation were
                                              > released not even 24 hours after the incident. Already folks have
                                              > made their decisions of how it happened based on media results and
                                              > 4th hand information.
                                              >
                                              > Tuesday I helped gather information on mondays incident. Even the
                                              > results of this investigation haven't been released. Once again I can
                                              > surmise what happened, but I don't know for sure?
                                              >
                                              > The young boy that fell off Angels Landing? I was there...I can
                                              > surmise. Investigation ongoing...yet we still have made our decision
                                              > based on what we've heard.
                                              >
                                              > My second recovery which took place over 9 years ago in Zion is still
                                              > not a conclusive statement? Was she pushed or did she just make a
                                              > stupid blunder? We may never know? I have an opinion, but would
                                              > rather not state it because I don't have all of the facts.
                                              >
                                              > Maybe what I'm trying to say Michael is that I believe rather than
                                              > making hasty comments, I would rather be cautious until all the facts
                                              > are laid out in front of me.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for your comments and putting me straight.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                              > <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                              >> When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your
                                              > assessment
                                              >> should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or
                                              > not.
                                              >> Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in order
                                              > to
                                              >> attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the only
                                              > way
                                              >> you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if it
                                              > was
                                              >> your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective. Too
                                              > many
                                              >> people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                              >> subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult issue
                                              > all
                                              >> of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.
                                              >>
                                              >> What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start
                                              > yelling
                                              >> out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is forced
                                              > to
                                              >> shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to
                                              > earn
                                              >> votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do
                                              > something
                                              >> about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that is
                                              > not
                                              >> beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some
                                              > hidden
                                              >> danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed
                                              > a 'knife
                                              >> edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death. It
                                              >> isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't
                                              > people
                                              >> make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data comes
                                              > in
                                              >> then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple
                                              > scientific
                                              >> method.
                                              >>
                                              >> Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk
                                              > driving,
                                              >> and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their family.
                                              > It
                                              >> was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their lives.
                                              > More
                                              >> often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                              >> sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same
                                              > tone
                                              >> when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody else,
                                              > then
                                              >> one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo
                                              > hooing
                                              >> will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                              >> understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally
                                              > pushed
                                              >> over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the person
                                              > that died.
                                              >> I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you attempt
                                              > more
                                              >> effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I just
                                              > came
                                              >> from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and believe
                                              > me
                                              >> watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at least
                                              > was
                                              >> the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of stuff.
                                              > Get on
                                              >> with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a loved
                                              > one
                                              >> died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I
                                              > wouldn't
                                              >> want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> Bo wrote:
                                              >>> Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died
                                              > because
                                              >>> of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you
                                              > ought to
                                              >>> reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak
                                              > face to
                                              >>> face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                              >>> and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since
                                              > you
                                              >>> are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                              >>> <mblitch@> wrote:
                                              >>>> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their
                                              > own
                                              >>>> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism
                                              > (such as
                                              >>> in
                                              >>>> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead
                                              > the
                                              >>>> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana
                                              > Jones
                                              >>>> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                            • dlgertz
                                              Hello, this is David, I was right behind Barry who fell of the mountain on friday. we had reached the top, had water and garanola bars and started down.
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 12 12:16 PM
                                                Hello, this is David, I was right behind Barry who fell of the
                                                mountain on friday. we had reached the top, had water and garanola
                                                bars and started down. Barry was first followed by his daughter,
                                                then my daughter then me. we were on the saddle between the two
                                                hills on the easy part. he just slipped. nothing else, just one in
                                                a million chance of slipping right there. he started sliding towards
                                                his right and could not grab anything to stop himself and he just
                                                went over the
                                                edge.

                                                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                                <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Bo wrote:
                                                > I appreciate the response, however I was not trying to put
                                                anyone 'in
                                                > their place', merely stating a personal opinion. I've been involved
                                                or
                                                > privy to only a few accident investigations, mostly in the
                                                underwater
                                                > cave diving community in Florida. Such issues about in almost nay
                                                area
                                                > of accident investigation no matter the sport or cause. Some
                                                believe
                                                > nothing should ever be released until the 'official word' comes
                                                out,
                                                > others want everything ASAP. The NTSB can take years to release
                                                report
                                                > because it takes a LONG time to gather their information (i.e. find
                                                all
                                                > the pieces, start correlating transcript timestamps, weather logs,
                                                etc).
                                                > We all need to understand that news outlets will speculate cause
                                                when
                                                > few facts are available, otherwise they simply could not exist. at
                                                what
                                                > point does one write the story. As long as people understand this
                                                and do
                                                > not assume it is always fact, then I think we will be ok.
                                                >
                                                > I think we expect and hope that our leaders can make objective
                                                decisions
                                                > for the betterment of the public. It is the the ethical kind of
                                                > questions such as 'do I send this person in on a suicide mission to
                                                save
                                                > hundreds' that we expect even low level officers to make on the
                                                > battlefield. So I think even if a family member is involved that
                                                the
                                                > decision should be the same. People are inquisitive and it is
                                                important
                                                > to understand what happened as a means of learning.
                                                >
                                                > I do not envy those that have to do the recoveries and
                                                investigations,
                                                > but extremely appreciate those that are willing to do it because
                                                that
                                                > share the love and enjoyment of the area/sport and are willing to
                                                > sacrifice time to protect it. How long should an accident
                                                investigation
                                                > take in this kind of case or that of the boy. Once you interview
                                                > witnesses, study the area, then what other aspects could change?
                                                Unless
                                                > someone recounts what they said, how long does one wait. I would
                                                guess
                                                > that in such cases the park just would want to wait a while so they
                                                may
                                                > quietly release a report so not to cause additional negative
                                                publicity.
                                                > Anyone that participates in 'killer sports' understands the danger
                                                of
                                                > some selfish and inconsiderate lawmaker that would trade our
                                                hobbies and
                                                > love for not even a month's worth of public exposure. I skydive,
                                                cave
                                                > dive, solo hike, go spelunking, and do other things that such
                                                people
                                                > thinks needs to be destroyed in order to protect me from myself. We
                                                just
                                                > cannot think that being quiet about things will keep us protected
                                                and
                                                > under the radar.
                                                >
                                                > > You're right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is
                                                a
                                                > > public forum and that freedom of "post" applies. I often get
                                                > > the "data" you refer to first hand and it baffles me sometimes
                                                when
                                                > > the "data" you refer to becomes gospel.
                                                > >
                                                > > Emotions? I guess. Sensitive? certainly.........Why? The County
                                                > > hasn't even released their investigative results; The NPS hasn't
                                                > > released their investigative results from fridays incident, yet
                                                the
                                                > > Tribune wasn't even there and their results of investigation were
                                                > > released not even 24 hours after the incident. Already folks have
                                                > > made their decisions of how it happened based on media results
                                                and
                                                > > 4th hand information.
                                                > >
                                                > > Tuesday I helped gather information on mondays incident. Even the
                                                > > results of this investigation haven't been released. Once again I
                                                can
                                                > > surmise what happened, but I don't know for sure?
                                                > >
                                                > > The young boy that fell off Angels Landing? I was there...I can
                                                > > surmise. Investigation ongoing...yet we still have made our
                                                decision
                                                > > based on what we've heard.
                                                > >
                                                > > My second recovery which took place over 9 years ago in Zion is
                                                still
                                                > > not a conclusive statement? Was she pushed or did she just make a
                                                > > stupid blunder? We may never know? I have an opinion, but would
                                                > > rather not state it because I don't have all of the facts.
                                                > >
                                                > > Maybe what I'm trying to say Michael is that I believe rather
                                                than
                                                > > making hasty comments, I would rather be cautious until all the
                                                facts
                                                > > are laid out in front of me.
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks for your comments and putting me straight.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                                > > <mblitch@> wrote:
                                                > >> When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your
                                                > > assessment
                                                > >> should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved
                                                or
                                                > > not.
                                                > >> Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in
                                                order
                                                > > to
                                                > >> attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the
                                                only
                                                > > way
                                                > >> you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if
                                                it
                                                > > was
                                                > >> your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective.
                                                Too
                                                > > many
                                                > >> people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                                > >> subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult
                                                issue
                                                > > all
                                                > >> of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start
                                                > > yelling
                                                > >> out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is
                                                forced
                                                > > to
                                                > >> shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to
                                                > > earn
                                                > >> votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do
                                                > > something
                                                > >> about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that
                                                is
                                                > > not
                                                > >> beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some
                                                > > hidden
                                                > >> danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed
                                                > > a 'knife
                                                > >> edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death.
                                                It
                                                > >> isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't
                                                > > people
                                                > >> make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data
                                                comes
                                                > > in
                                                > >> then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple
                                                > > scientific
                                                > >> method.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk
                                                > > driving,
                                                > >> and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their
                                                family.
                                                > > It
                                                > >> was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their
                                                lives.
                                                > > More
                                                > >> often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                                > >> sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same
                                                > > tone
                                                > >> when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody
                                                else,
                                                > > then
                                                > >> one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo
                                                > > hooing
                                                > >> will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                                > >> understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally
                                                > > pushed
                                                > >> over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the
                                                person
                                                > > that died.
                                                > >> I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you
                                                attempt
                                                > > more
                                                > >> effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I
                                                just
                                                > > came
                                                > >> from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and
                                                believe
                                                > > me
                                                > >> watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at
                                                least
                                                > > was
                                                > >> the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of
                                                stuff.
                                                > > Get on
                                                > >> with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a
                                                loved
                                                > > one
                                                > >> died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I
                                                > > wouldn't
                                                > >> want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Bo wrote:
                                                > >>> Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died
                                                > > because
                                                > >>> of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you
                                                > > ought to
                                                > >>> reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak
                                                > > face to
                                                > >>> face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                                > >>> and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better
                                                since
                                                > > you
                                                > >>> are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael
                                                Blitch
                                                > >>> <mblitch@> wrote:
                                                > >>>> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their
                                                > > own
                                                > >>>> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism
                                                > > (such as
                                                > >>> in
                                                > >>>> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead
                                                > > the
                                                > >>>> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana
                                                > > Jones
                                                > >>>> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                                >
                                              • luvs_to_hike
                                                I hope you and the family find a way to heal. Take care.
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jun 12 1:49 PM

                                                  I hope you and the family find a way to heal.  Take care.


                                                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dlgertz" <dlgertz@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hello, this is David, I was right behind Barry who fell of the
                                                  > mountain on friday. we had reached the top, had water and garanola
                                                  > bars and started down. Barry was first followed by his daughter,
                                                  > then my daughter then me. we were on the saddle between the two
                                                  > hills on the easy part. he just slipped. nothing else, just one in
                                                  > a million chance of slipping right there. he started sliding towards
                                                  > his right and could not grab anything to stop himself and he just
                                                  > went over the
                                                  > edge.

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