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Re: Another death in Zion :( -- Angels Landing

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  • adkramoo
    ... I ll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0 I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the past? That has to make
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      > Another very sad tradegy! [:(]

      > "According to the park's Web site, five other people have died while
      > hiking Angels Landing since July 2006. "
      >
      > That's quite a few in such a short time?

      I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
      I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
      past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
      wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
      youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
      giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
      apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
      R
    • mojave_ben
      The quote about according to the Park s wet site 5 people have died since July 2006 appears to be incorrect. What I see is the following: Q. How many people
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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        The quote about "according to the Park's wet site 5 people have died
        since July 2006" appears to be incorrect.

        What I see is the following:

        "Q. How many people have fallen off Angels Landing?
        A. We don't have exact numbers, possibly about 5. More people have
        died at Emerald Pools (7) than Angels Landing."
        (from http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-asked-questions-about-zions-
        hiking-trails.htm)

        That figure is from the establishment of the park (park in 1919,
        national monument in 1909)

        I think the article also implies that the park does not adequately
        warn people about the dangers. It appears to me that it does. Here
        is an example: "Strenuous hike to a panoramic viewpoint. This trail
        is not recommended for anyone fearful of heights." (from
        http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/MakingTheMostOfYourTime.htm)

        I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
        I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
        At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
        Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
        from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
        that there are other nice places to go at that point will hopefully
        make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
        Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
        main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.

        But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
        to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
      • luvs_to_hike
        I don t think it s a dangerous trail compared to many of the routes they could take, but it is a busy one! Perhaps the shuttle drivers could point out how to
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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          I don't think it's a dangerous trail compared to many of the routes they could take, but it is a busy one!  Perhaps the shuttle drivers could point out how to stay safe when on Zion's sandstone. 

           

          PS. Gossip (or incorrect "facts") before the news comes out does tend to get those involved with the accidents upset.  There is a lot they have to deal with.


          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
           
          > I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
          > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
          > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
          > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
          > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
          > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
          > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
          > R
          >

        • Bo
          Yes, a very terrible thing to happen once again. In my opinion what will cause the park to consider closing the trail would be possible lawsuits brought about
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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            Yes, a very terrible thing to happen once again.

            In my opinion what will cause the park to consider closing the trail
            would be possible lawsuits brought about because of "pure speculation"
            brought about by the media and individuals as to the cause of the
            accident. Not only is it the effort to sensationalize what has
            happened, but can adversely affect public opinion, shatter the lives of
            the victims family (above and beyond the devistating impact already
            being dealt with). Washington County (required by state law) is leading
            an investigation, along with the Park pursuing their own investigation
            as to the cause of this horrible accident, counciling is being provided
            to the families and friends, but already individuals and the media have
            published and promoted the "cause" over the internet. Photo Taking,
            Goofing around...etc, etc. Maybe,,,, just maybe, he just lost footing
            or some other reason?

            I say...let the state do their job, let the park do their job and let
            the families and friends of the deceased have some respect with silence
            and our condolences.

            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "adkramoo"
            <adkramoo@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
            > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
            > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
            > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
            > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
            > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
            > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
            > R
            >
          • luvs_to_hike
            Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do they? Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to the edge? ... the ...
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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              Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do they?  Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to the edge?


              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...> wrote:
              > Absolutely, Ramoo! Very sad.
              >
              > > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in the
              > > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
              > > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
              > > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
              > > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
              > > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
              >
              > I have been hiking Angels Landing since 1976 -- it's one of my favorite
              > places to hike and photograph. But I have been shocked over the past
              > decade how much more crowded it has gotten. The amount of people makes
              > it look like a sale day at the mall and it gets me nervous to see so
              > many people zipping up and down the trail not really noticing how
              > exposed this hike is. It's not technical, but it is serious business
              > with serious consequences. I feel and can relate personally to this
              > tragedy because I am guilty of "going for the shot" and temporarily
              > forgetting about my footing or safety on numerous occasions. But geeze,
              > six deaths in 2006? Angels is reaching Lady Mountain status. Let's hope
              > it doesn't eventually get closed as a danger to the public.
              >
              > My heart goes out to the family and friends. Absolutely tragic day,
              > especially on the heels of the Heaps tragedy. Please be safe everyone! -
              > Joe
              >

            • luvs_to_hike
              I took my daughter and Granddaughter on it a couple of years ago. I never noticed just how sheer the hike was until I had them with me. I left them at Scout
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                I took my daughter and Granddaughter on it a couple of years ago.  I never noticed just how sheer the hike was until I had them with me.  I left them at Scout Lookout, but after I left they did the trail without my knowing.  On the way back I was behind them on the exposed parts.  I was not thrilled they did it!  Kids! 8-|  Even on the parts that looked safe then, when I look back at the photos were quite exposed!


                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben" <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                >
                > The quote about "according to the Park's wet site 5 people have died
                > since July 2006" appears to be incorrect.
                >
                > What I see is the following:
                >
                > "Q. How many people have fallen off Angels Landing?
                > A. We don't have exact numbers, possibly about 5. More people have
                > died at Emerald Pools (7) than Angels Landing."
                > (from http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-asked-questions-about-zions-
                > hiking-trails.htm)
                >
                > That figure is from the establishment of the park (park in 1919,
                > national monument in 1909)
                >
                > I think the article also implies that the park does not adequately
                > warn people about the dangers. It appears to me that it does. Here
                > is an example: "Strenuous hike to a panoramic viewpoint. This trail
                > is not recommended for anyone fearful of heights." (from
                > http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/MakingTheMostOfYourTime.htm)
                >
                > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                > that there are other nice places to go at that point will hopefully
                > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                >
                > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                >

              • claytongarypalmer
                A co-worker also witnessed the fall and said it was the most horrible thing he had ever saw!--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, ~*~News Today~*~
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                  A co-worker also witnessed the fall and said it was the most horrible
                  thing he had ever saw!--- In
                  Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, ~*~News Today~*~
                  <mail_for_tylas@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hiker plunges from a trail in Zion Park
                  >
                  > A Saint Louis man fell to his death Friday while descending the
                  Angels Landing trail in Zion National Park.
                  > Search and rescue crews found the body of Barry Goldstein,
                  53, shortly after he had fallen several hundred feet from the trail,
                  said park spokesman David Eaker.
                  > "The man was visiting the park and had family with him," said
                  Eaker.
                  > Mike Farley, an eyewitness to the accident, said Goldstein
                  had been traveling with a large group that appeared to be a wedding
                  party.
                  > Farley and other adults were accompanying a church group of
                  14- and 15-year-old boys and were eating lunch at a nearby peak when
                  they witnessed the accident.
                  > "We were sitting there and couldn't believe what were were
                  watching," said Farley. "It was a sheer dropoff. There were no second
                  chances when he went off."
                  > Farley and his group immediately dialed 911, describing
                  witnessing the scene as "unbelievable.
                  > document.writeln(AAMB6);
                  > "They had left 10 minutes before us and were crossing
                  narrow neck. The guy (Goldstein) had been standing near the edge ...
                  the man who was next to him before he fell later told me that he
                  (Goldstein) was goofing off near the edge and the ground crumbled as
                  he stepped back," said Farley. "We could see him fall.... Just
                  like that he was gone."
                  > Washington County sheriff's deputies and park officials are
                  still investigating the case, Eaker said.
                  > According to the park's Web site, five other people have died
                  while hiking Angels Landing since July 2006. The hike is described as
                  strenuous with steep trails that provide hikers with "spectacular
                  views of Zion Canyon."
                  > A sixth death not accounted for on the Web site took place in
                  August when Bernadette Vandermeer, 29, of Las Vegas accidentally fell
                  to her death while hiking the trail with her husband.
                  > Park officials closed the trail for a short time following
                  Friday's accident but reopened it to hikers later that afternoon.
                  >
                  > http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660228165,00.html
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                  Yahoo! FareChase.
                  >
                • claytongarypalmer
                  When I made it to the top a couple months ago, I thought it was not so bad. But coming back down from the Landing looks scarier than going up and I don t want
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                    When I made it to the top a couple months ago, I thought it was not
                    so bad. But coming back down from the Landing looks scarier than
                    going up and I don't want to do it again.--- In
                    Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                    <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I took my daughter and Granddaughter on it a couple of years ago. I
                    > never noticed just how sheer the hike was until I had them with
                    me. I
                    > left them at Scout Lookout, but after I left they did the trail
                    without
                    > my knowing. On the way back I was behind them on the exposed
                    parts. I
                    > was not thrilled they did it! Kids! [8-|] Even on the parts that
                    > looked safe then, when I look back at the photos were quite exposed!
                    >
                    >
                    > <http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/images/angels-
                    landing-u_\
                    > jpg.jpg>
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben"
                    > <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The quote about "according to the Park's wet site 5 people have
                    died
                    > > since July 2006" appears to be incorrect.
                    > >
                    > > What I see is the following:
                    > >
                    > > "Q. How many people have fallen off Angels Landing?
                    > > A. We don't have exact numbers, possibly about 5. More people have
                    > > died at Emerald Pools (7) than Angels Landing."
                    > > (from http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-asked-questions-about-
                    zions-
                    > > hiking-trails.htm)
                    > >
                    > > That figure is from the establishment of the park (park in 1919,
                    > > national monument in 1909)
                    > >
                    > > I think the article also implies that the park does not adequately
                    > > warn people about the dangers. It appears to me that it does. Here
                    > > is an example: "Strenuous hike to a panoramic viewpoint. This
                    trail
                    > > is not recommended for anyone fearful of heights." (from
                    > > http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/MakingTheMostOfYourTime.htm)
                    > >
                    > > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                    > > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                    > > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                    > > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                    > > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                    > > that there are other nice places to go at that point will
                    hopefully
                    > > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                    > > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                    > > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                    > >
                    > > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                    > > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                    > >
                    >
                  • gootwan
                    I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch the first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You ll be rewarded with cool temps, an amazing view
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                      I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch the
                      first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You'll be rewarded with cool temps,
                      an amazing view with the sun coming over the cliffs, and you'll almost
                      have the trail to yourself, both on the way up and back.

                      It's the only way I would ever climb AL during the peak season.

                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben"
                      <mojave_ben@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                      > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                      > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                      > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                      > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                      > that there are other nice places to go at that point will hopefully
                      > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                      > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                      > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                      >
                      > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                      > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                      >
                    • luvs_to_hike
                      When I went up there with the kids (not suggested though)... it was late in the day. There were thunderstorms all around us, but above Angels Landing it was
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                        When I went up there with the kids (not suggested though)... it was late in the day.  There were thunderstorms all around us, but above Angels Landing it was clear.  It was dark when we got back down to the shuttle though.


                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "gootwan" <j.egertson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch the
                        > first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You'll be rewarded with cool temps,
                        > an amazing view with the sun coming over the cliffs, and you'll almost
                        > have the trail to yourself, both on the way up and back.
                        >
                        > It's the only way I would ever climb AL during the peak season.

                      • garyclaytonpalmer
                        Yes, the early morning is the best tim. With sunrise about 5am now and the top of the Angels Landing being in full sun by 7-8 am it gets awfully hot on the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                          Yes, the early morning is the best tim. With sunrise about 5am now
                          and the top of the Angels Landing being in full sun by 7-8 am it gets
                          awfully hot on the trail in mid morning. Too many people start in mid
                          afternoon when the sun is at its worst. Thats the best time to do the
                          Narrows but not any of the uphill hikes to any where around the rims.-
                          -- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "gootwan"
                          <j.egertson@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I highly recommend doing this trail first thing in the AM. Catch
                          the
                          > first shuttle to the Grotto and go. You'll be rewarded with cool
                          temps,
                          > an amazing view with the sun coming over the cliffs, and you'll
                          almost
                          > have the trail to yourself, both on the way up and back.
                          >
                          > It's the only way I would ever climb AL during the peak season.
                          >
                          > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben"
                          > <mojave_ben@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I am planning on going to Angels Landing in July, with a 7 yr old.
                          > > I think that he and I and my wife know how to behave when exposed.
                          > > At least some of these deaths appear to be due to "goofing off".
                          > > Thanks to whomever posted the nice article recently about views
                          > > from the West Rim Trail beyond the Angels Landing trail; knowing
                          > > that there are other nice places to go at that point will
                          hopefully
                          > > make it easier to bail out and just continue up for a while if
                          > > Angels Landing looks too dicey. I also figure that one of the
                          > > main dangers is congestion from crowds on the narrow spaces.
                          > >
                          > > But, if knowing that someone died on a route makes a person scared
                          > > to do that route, then by all means they should do something else!
                          > >
                          >
                        • Bo
                          The last fatality was at the viewpoint Joe. ... the ... article ... shouldn t ... were ... it. ... our
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                            The last fatality was at the viewpoint Joe.

                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > > Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do
                            > they?
                            > > Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to
                            the
                            > > edge?
                            >
                            > I would consider those points to be one and the same, but, the last
                            > fatality that I know of was NOT at the viewpoint.
                            >
                            > In the interest of being senstive though, if that original news
                            article
                            > is peppered with speculation and misinformation, perhaps we
                            shouldn't
                            > have it splattered on all of our chat groups. It's worded as if it
                            were
                            > already "fact", and it's only promoting us to think and talk about
                            it.
                            > Incidents like this always sadden the community and make us ponder
                            our
                            > own risks and responsibilities. :(
                            >
                          • Bo
                            It just wasn t published in the media.....hurrah. ... the ... article ... shouldn t ... were ... it. ... our
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                              It just wasn't published in the media.....hurrah.

                              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > > Most of those deaths have nothing to do with hiking the trail do
                              > they?
                              > > Are they not usually from the top when people stray too close to
                              the
                              > > edge?
                              >
                              > I would consider those points to be one and the same, but, the last
                              > fatality that I know of was NOT at the viewpoint.
                              >
                              > In the interest of being senstive though, if that original news
                              article
                              > is peppered with speculation and misinformation, perhaps we
                              shouldn't
                              > have it splattered on all of our chat groups. It's worded as if it
                              were
                              > already "fact", and it's only promoting us to think and talk about
                              it.
                              > Incidents like this always sadden the community and make us ponder
                              our
                              > own risks and responsibilities. :(
                              >
                            • Joni
                              ... while ... the ... MY NIECE WAS UPCLOSE AND I HEAR SHE IS NOT DOING WELL..SHE WAS DADYS GIRL,, AND JUST GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "adkramoo"
                                <adkramoo@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                                > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > > Another very sad tradegy! [:(]
                                >
                                > > "According to the park's Web site, five other people have died
                                while
                                > > hiking Angels Landing since July 2006. "
                                > >
                                > > That's quite a few in such a short time?
                                >
                                > I'll risk that it is OK to talk about it on this group. :-0
                                > I knew of several but that is a huge amount. More frequent than in
                                the
                                > past? That has to make it one of the deadliest trail anywhere. I
                                > wonder what the park hierarchy are thinking about this? And to have
                                > youngsters witness it! I hope counciling is available. All this is
                                > giving me nightmares and I'm not even there. Another family torn
                                > apart. Can we stop now? Enough? Bumming. Be careful everyone.
                                > R
                                >
                                MY NIECE WAS UPCLOSE AND I HEAR SHE IS NOT DOING WELL..SHE WAS DADYS
                                GIRL,, AND JUST GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE
                              • mojave_ben
                                ... let ... silence ... I will certainly second that and to the extent that I may have jumped to conclusions, I apologize. Anyone who has the motivation and
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Bo"
                                  <bomabro84738@...> wrote:

                                  > I say...let the state do their job, let the park do their job and
                                  let
                                  > the families and friends of the deceased have some respect with
                                  silence
                                  > and our condolences.

                                  I will certainly second that and to the extent that I may have
                                  jumped to conclusions, I apologize. Anyone who has the motivation
                                  and the energy to get on their feet and get up there is a kindered
                                  spirit. I do think it's important to keep the perspective right;
                                  5 deaths in the last year on Angels Landing would be troublesome.

                                  But, avoiding speculation, if you're the kind of person who puts
                                  yourself at some (hopefully calculated) risks, as I will admit to,
                                  we may be able to learn from the unfortunate mistakes of others.
                                  Hence the value of deconstructing these accidents. Once the
                                  headlines are gone, if anyone hears a better verified account,
                                  please post.
                                • luvs_to_hike
                                  Zion spokesman warns of Angels Landing dangers The Salt Lake Tribune Though popular with hikers for its expansive canyon views, the park s Angels Landing trail
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                    Zion spokesman warns of Angels Landing dangers
                                    The Salt Lake Tribune

                                    Though popular with hikers for its expansive
                                    canyon views, the park's Angels Landing trail once again proved deadly
                                    last week as two people died in unrelated incidents.
                                    Washington County sheriff's deputies and National Park officials
                                    are investigating the Friday death of 53-year-old Barry Goldstein, a
                                    Missouri man who was hiking with family members when he fell 1,000
                                    feet off a cliff. An unidentified 60-year-old man died Saturday
                                    afternoon from an apparent heart attack while hiking the trail, said
                                    park spokesman Tom Haraden.
                                    It remains unclear why Goldstein, who was in good physical
                                    condition, fell to his death, Haraden said. Goldstein was hiking in
                                    the park around noon when witnesses saw him fall from the trail at a
                                    point between Scouts Lookout and the summit of Angels Landing.
                                    "We don't know if he tripped, or was dizzy, or what made him
                                    fall," Haraden said. "We'll interview witnesses and ask about his
                                    hiking experience, abilities and frame of mind."
                                    The Angels Landing trail is about 4 feet wide in some places, but
                                    eventually becomes a knife-edge that drops off 800 feet on one side
                                    and 1,200 feet on the other. Hikers can grab onto a chain during the
                                    narrowest part of the hike, one of the most popular in Zion, according
                                    to Haraden. But a sign at the base of the trail warns, "Falls from
                                    cliffs on this trail have resulted in death."
                                    "We
                                    feel we are doing pretty much all we can do," Haraden said. "We
                                    provide trail, flood and weather information in lots of different
                                    locations in the park. We make sure [hikers] are informed. Everybody's
                                    safety is their own responsibility."
                                    Park rangers say they discovered Goldstein's body approximately
                                    1,000 feet below Angels Landing, and his remains will be autopsied.
                                    Authorities have interviewed several witnesses, including family
                                    members who were visiting the park with Goldstein as part of a family
                                    reunion, said Stephanie Coots, a Washington County Sheriff's Office
                                    spokeswoman.
                                    Judson Dolman, a St. George resident who hikes extensively in the
                                    park, described Angels Landing as a trail not for those afraid of heights.
                                    "It's incredible, but can be scary where the trail gets narrow,"
                                    he said.
                                    Dolman added he once saw a boy on the trail freeze up while
                                    holding onto one of a series of chains anchored to the rock. "For a
                                    while, he wouldn't go forward or back," he said.
                                    Hurricane resident Lori West, a regular visitor to the park, said
                                    local shuttle drivers always warn people about the Angels Landing hike.
                                    "In the end, people have to be responsible for themselves," she said.
                                    The deaths marked two fatalities on Angels Landing in one week. A
                                    third death occurred elsewhere in the park on Monday, when 48-year-old
                                    Keith Biederman, of Garden Grove, Calif., fell 300 feet as he
                                    rappelled in the Emerald Pools area of the park about 10:30 p.m.,
                                    according to the Washington County Sheriff's Office.
                                    Yet changes at the park, which draws about 2.6 million visitors
                                    each year, are unlikely in the wake of the deaths, Haraden said.
                                    Trails are marked and parkgoers are encouraged to act cautiously while
                                    traversing the area's steep cliffs.
                                    "You can get hurt anywhere," he said. "You can trip on a curb,
                                    fall and get hurt badly. National parks are just the great outdoors,
                                    but you have to be careful. When you trip on a rock in Angels Landing,
                                    you're 800 to 1,400 feet above the ground."
                                    ngonzalez@...
                                    Past Angels Landing deaths
                                    Barry Goldstein is the sixth person to die in a fall from Angels
                                    Landing in recent years:
                                    * Jeffery Robert Dwyer, 28, of Sandpoint, Idaho, died in a
                                    150-foot fall in 1989.
                                    * In 1997, a botched rappel led to the death of climber John
                                    Christensen, 36, of Provo.
                                    * George Sender, 63, of Illertissen, Germany, fell while hiking in
                                    2000.
                                    * In 2004, Kristoffer Jones, 14, of California, fell during a Boy
                                    Scout troop outing. Officials said another Scout had bet Kristoffer to
                                    crawl out onto a ledge and scratch his name into the side of a cliff.
                                    * A Las Vegas woman, 29-year-old Bernadette Vandermeer, fell while
                                    hiking with her husband.



                                  • Michael Blitch
                                    It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as in the case of the 14
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                      It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                      lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as in
                                      the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                      deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                      movies; "He chose poorly".
                                    • luvs_to_hike
                                      I like the quote on your profile. Favorite Quote: Any mans death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                        I like the quote on your profile.

                                        Favorite Quote:
                                        Any mans death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. -John Donne


                                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                        > lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as in
                                        > the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                        > deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                        > movies; "He chose poorly".
                                        >

                                      • Bo
                                        Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died because of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you ought to reserve your
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                          Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died because
                                          of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you ought to
                                          reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak face to
                                          face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                          and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since you
                                          are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?


                                          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                          <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                          > lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as
                                          in
                                          > the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                          > deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                          > movies; "He chose poorly".
                                          >
                                        • Michael Blitch
                                          When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your assessment should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or not. Only being able
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your assessment
                                            should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or not.
                                            Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in order to
                                            attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the only way
                                            you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if it was
                                            your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective. Too many
                                            people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                            subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult issue all
                                            of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.

                                            What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start yelling
                                            out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is forced to
                                            shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to earn
                                            votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do something
                                            about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that is not
                                            beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some hidden
                                            danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed a 'knife
                                            edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death. It
                                            isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't people
                                            make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data comes in
                                            then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple scientific
                                            method.

                                            Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk driving,
                                            and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their family. It
                                            was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their lives. More
                                            often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                            sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same tone
                                            when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody else, then
                                            one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo hooing
                                            will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                            understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally pushed
                                            over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the person that died.

                                            I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you attempt more
                                            effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I just came
                                            from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and believe me
                                            watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at least was
                                            the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of stuff. Get on
                                            with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a loved one
                                            died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I wouldn't
                                            want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.



                                            Bo wrote:
                                            > Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died because
                                            > of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you ought to
                                            > reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak face to
                                            > face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                            > and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since you
                                            > are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                            > <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                            >> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their own
                                            >> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism (such as
                                            > in
                                            >> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead the
                                            >> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana Jones
                                            >> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                          • Bo
                                            You re right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is a public forum and that freedom of post applies. I often get the data you refer to first
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 11, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              You're right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is a
                                              public forum and that freedom of "post" applies. I often get
                                              the "data" you refer to first hand and it baffles me sometimes when
                                              the "data" you refer to becomes gospel.

                                              Emotions? I guess. Sensitive? certainly.........Why? The County
                                              hasn't even released their investigative results; The NPS hasn't
                                              released their investigative results from fridays incident, yet the
                                              Tribune wasn't even there and their results of investigation were
                                              released not even 24 hours after the incident. Already folks have
                                              made their decisions of how it happened based on media results and
                                              4th hand information.

                                              Tuesday I helped gather information on mondays incident. Even the
                                              results of this investigation haven't been released. Once again I can
                                              surmise what happened, but I don't know for sure?

                                              The young boy that fell off Angels Landing? I was there...I can
                                              surmise. Investigation ongoing...yet we still have made our decision
                                              based on what we've heard.

                                              My second recovery which took place over 9 years ago in Zion is still
                                              not a conclusive statement? Was she pushed or did she just make a
                                              stupid blunder? We may never know? I have an opinion, but would
                                              rather not state it because I don't have all of the facts.

                                              Maybe what I'm trying to say Michael is that I believe rather than
                                              making hasty comments, I would rather be cautious until all the facts
                                              are laid out in front of me.

                                              Thanks for your comments and putting me straight.



                                              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                              <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your
                                              assessment
                                              > should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or
                                              not.
                                              > Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in order
                                              to
                                              > attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the only
                                              way
                                              > you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if it
                                              was
                                              > your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective. Too
                                              many
                                              > people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                              > subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult issue
                                              all
                                              > of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.
                                              >
                                              > What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start
                                              yelling
                                              > out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is forced
                                              to
                                              > shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to
                                              earn
                                              > votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do
                                              something
                                              > about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that is
                                              not
                                              > beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some
                                              hidden
                                              > danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed
                                              a 'knife
                                              > edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death. It
                                              > isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't
                                              people
                                              > make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data comes
                                              in
                                              > then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple
                                              scientific
                                              > method.
                                              >
                                              > Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk
                                              driving,
                                              > and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their family.
                                              It
                                              > was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their lives.
                                              More
                                              > often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                              > sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same
                                              tone
                                              > when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody else,
                                              then
                                              > one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo
                                              hooing
                                              > will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                              > understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally
                                              pushed
                                              > over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the person
                                              that died.
                                              >
                                              > I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you attempt
                                              more
                                              > effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I just
                                              came
                                              > from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and believe
                                              me
                                              > watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at least
                                              was
                                              > the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of stuff.
                                              Get on
                                              > with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a loved
                                              one
                                              > died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I
                                              wouldn't
                                              > want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Bo wrote:
                                              > > Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died
                                              because
                                              > > of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you
                                              ought to
                                              > > reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak
                                              face to
                                              > > face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                              > > and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since
                                              you
                                              > > are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                              > > <mblitch@> wrote:
                                              > >> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their
                                              own
                                              > >> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism
                                              (such as
                                              > > in
                                              > >> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead
                                              the
                                              > >> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana
                                              Jones
                                              > >> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                              >
                                            • Michael Blitch
                                              Bo wrote: I appreciate the response, however I was not trying to put anyone in their place , merely stating a personal opinion. I ve been involved or privy to
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 11, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Bo wrote:
                                                I appreciate the response, however I was not trying to put anyone 'in
                                                their place', merely stating a personal opinion. I've been involved or
                                                privy to only a few accident investigations, mostly in the underwater
                                                cave diving community in Florida. Such issues about in almost nay area
                                                of accident investigation no matter the sport or cause. Some believe
                                                nothing should ever be released until the 'official word' comes out,
                                                others want everything ASAP. The NTSB can take years to release report
                                                because it takes a LONG time to gather their information (i.e. find all
                                                the pieces, start correlating transcript timestamps, weather logs, etc).
                                                We all need to understand that news outlets will speculate cause when
                                                few facts are available, otherwise they simply could not exist. at what
                                                point does one write the story. As long as people understand this and do
                                                not assume it is always fact, then I think we will be ok.

                                                I think we expect and hope that our leaders can make objective decisions
                                                for the betterment of the public. It is the the ethical kind of
                                                questions such as 'do I send this person in on a suicide mission to save
                                                hundreds' that we expect even low level officers to make on the
                                                battlefield. So I think even if a family member is involved that the
                                                decision should be the same. People are inquisitive and it is important
                                                to understand what happened as a means of learning.

                                                I do not envy those that have to do the recoveries and investigations,
                                                but extremely appreciate those that are willing to do it because that
                                                share the love and enjoyment of the area/sport and are willing to
                                                sacrifice time to protect it. How long should an accident investigation
                                                take in this kind of case or that of the boy. Once you interview
                                                witnesses, study the area, then what other aspects could change? Unless
                                                someone recounts what they said, how long does one wait. I would guess
                                                that in such cases the park just would want to wait a while so they may
                                                quietly release a report so not to cause additional negative publicity.
                                                Anyone that participates in 'killer sports' understands the danger of
                                                some selfish and inconsiderate lawmaker that would trade our hobbies and
                                                love for not even a month's worth of public exposure. I skydive, cave
                                                dive, solo hike, go spelunking, and do other things that such people
                                                thinks needs to be destroyed in order to protect me from myself. We just
                                                cannot think that being quiet about things will keep us protected and
                                                under the radar.

                                                > You're right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is a
                                                > public forum and that freedom of "post" applies. I often get
                                                > the "data" you refer to first hand and it baffles me sometimes when
                                                > the "data" you refer to becomes gospel.
                                                >
                                                > Emotions? I guess. Sensitive? certainly.........Why? The County
                                                > hasn't even released their investigative results; The NPS hasn't
                                                > released their investigative results from fridays incident, yet the
                                                > Tribune wasn't even there and their results of investigation were
                                                > released not even 24 hours after the incident. Already folks have
                                                > made their decisions of how it happened based on media results and
                                                > 4th hand information.
                                                >
                                                > Tuesday I helped gather information on mondays incident. Even the
                                                > results of this investigation haven't been released. Once again I can
                                                > surmise what happened, but I don't know for sure?
                                                >
                                                > The young boy that fell off Angels Landing? I was there...I can
                                                > surmise. Investigation ongoing...yet we still have made our decision
                                                > based on what we've heard.
                                                >
                                                > My second recovery which took place over 9 years ago in Zion is still
                                                > not a conclusive statement? Was she pushed or did she just make a
                                                > stupid blunder? We may never know? I have an opinion, but would
                                                > rather not state it because I don't have all of the facts.
                                                >
                                                > Maybe what I'm trying to say Michael is that I believe rather than
                                                > making hasty comments, I would rather be cautious until all the facts
                                                > are laid out in front of me.
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for your comments and putting me straight.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                                > <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                                >> When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your
                                                > assessment
                                                >> should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved or
                                                > not.
                                                >> Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in order
                                                > to
                                                >> attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the only
                                                > way
                                                >> you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if it
                                                > was
                                                >> your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective. Too
                                                > many
                                                >> people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                                >> subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult issue
                                                > all
                                                >> of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.
                                                >>
                                                >> What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start
                                                > yelling
                                                >> out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is forced
                                                > to
                                                >> shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to
                                                > earn
                                                >> votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do
                                                > something
                                                >> about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that is
                                                > not
                                                >> beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some
                                                > hidden
                                                >> danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed
                                                > a 'knife
                                                >> edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death. It
                                                >> isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't
                                                > people
                                                >> make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data comes
                                                > in
                                                >> then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple
                                                > scientific
                                                >> method.
                                                >>
                                                >> Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk
                                                > driving,
                                                >> and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their family.
                                                > It
                                                >> was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their lives.
                                                > More
                                                >> often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                                >> sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same
                                                > tone
                                                >> when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody else,
                                                > then
                                                >> one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo
                                                > hooing
                                                >> will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                                >> understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally
                                                > pushed
                                                >> over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the person
                                                > that died.
                                                >> I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you attempt
                                                > more
                                                >> effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I just
                                                > came
                                                >> from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and believe
                                                > me
                                                >> watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at least
                                                > was
                                                >> the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of stuff.
                                                > Get on
                                                >> with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a loved
                                                > one
                                                >> died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I
                                                > wouldn't
                                                >> want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Bo wrote:
                                                >>> Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died
                                                > because
                                                >>> of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you
                                                > ought to
                                                >>> reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak
                                                > face to
                                                >>> face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                                >>> and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better since
                                                > you
                                                >>> are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                                >>> <mblitch@> wrote:
                                                >>>> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their
                                                > own
                                                >>>> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism
                                                > (such as
                                                >>> in
                                                >>>> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead
                                                > the
                                                >>>> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana
                                                > Jones
                                                >>>> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                              • dlgertz
                                                Hello, this is David, I was right behind Barry who fell of the mountain on friday. we had reached the top, had water and garanola bars and started down.
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jun 12, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hello, this is David, I was right behind Barry who fell of the
                                                  mountain on friday. we had reached the top, had water and garanola
                                                  bars and started down. Barry was first followed by his daughter,
                                                  then my daughter then me. we were on the saddle between the two
                                                  hills on the easy part. he just slipped. nothing else, just one in
                                                  a million chance of slipping right there. he started sliding towards
                                                  his right and could not grab anything to stop himself and he just
                                                  went over the
                                                  edge.

                                                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                                  <mblitch@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Bo wrote:
                                                  > I appreciate the response, however I was not trying to put
                                                  anyone 'in
                                                  > their place', merely stating a personal opinion. I've been involved
                                                  or
                                                  > privy to only a few accident investigations, mostly in the
                                                  underwater
                                                  > cave diving community in Florida. Such issues about in almost nay
                                                  area
                                                  > of accident investigation no matter the sport or cause. Some
                                                  believe
                                                  > nothing should ever be released until the 'official word' comes
                                                  out,
                                                  > others want everything ASAP. The NTSB can take years to release
                                                  report
                                                  > because it takes a LONG time to gather their information (i.e. find
                                                  all
                                                  > the pieces, start correlating transcript timestamps, weather logs,
                                                  etc).
                                                  > We all need to understand that news outlets will speculate cause
                                                  when
                                                  > few facts are available, otherwise they simply could not exist. at
                                                  what
                                                  > point does one write the story. As long as people understand this
                                                  and do
                                                  > not assume it is always fact, then I think we will be ok.
                                                  >
                                                  > I think we expect and hope that our leaders can make objective
                                                  decisions
                                                  > for the betterment of the public. It is the the ethical kind of
                                                  > questions such as 'do I send this person in on a suicide mission to
                                                  save
                                                  > hundreds' that we expect even low level officers to make on the
                                                  > battlefield. So I think even if a family member is involved that
                                                  the
                                                  > decision should be the same. People are inquisitive and it is
                                                  important
                                                  > to understand what happened as a means of learning.
                                                  >
                                                  > I do not envy those that have to do the recoveries and
                                                  investigations,
                                                  > but extremely appreciate those that are willing to do it because
                                                  that
                                                  > share the love and enjoyment of the area/sport and are willing to
                                                  > sacrifice time to protect it. How long should an accident
                                                  investigation
                                                  > take in this kind of case or that of the boy. Once you interview
                                                  > witnesses, study the area, then what other aspects could change?
                                                  Unless
                                                  > someone recounts what they said, how long does one wait. I would
                                                  guess
                                                  > that in such cases the park just would want to wait a while so they
                                                  may
                                                  > quietly release a report so not to cause additional negative
                                                  publicity.
                                                  > Anyone that participates in 'killer sports' understands the danger
                                                  of
                                                  > some selfish and inconsiderate lawmaker that would trade our
                                                  hobbies and
                                                  > love for not even a month's worth of public exposure. I skydive,
                                                  cave
                                                  > dive, solo hike, go spelunking, and do other things that such
                                                  people
                                                  > thinks needs to be destroyed in order to protect me from myself. We
                                                  just
                                                  > cannot think that being quiet about things will keep us protected
                                                  and
                                                  > under the radar.
                                                  >
                                                  > > You're right Michael. Sincerely humbled. I had forgotten this is
                                                  a
                                                  > > public forum and that freedom of "post" applies. I often get
                                                  > > the "data" you refer to first hand and it baffles me sometimes
                                                  when
                                                  > > the "data" you refer to becomes gospel.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Emotions? I guess. Sensitive? certainly.........Why? The County
                                                  > > hasn't even released their investigative results; The NPS hasn't
                                                  > > released their investigative results from fridays incident, yet
                                                  the
                                                  > > Tribune wasn't even there and their results of investigation were
                                                  > > released not even 24 hours after the incident. Already folks have
                                                  > > made their decisions of how it happened based on media results
                                                  and
                                                  > > 4th hand information.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Tuesday I helped gather information on mondays incident. Even the
                                                  > > results of this investigation haven't been released. Once again I
                                                  can
                                                  > > surmise what happened, but I don't know for sure?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The young boy that fell off Angels Landing? I was there...I can
                                                  > > surmise. Investigation ongoing...yet we still have made our
                                                  decision
                                                  > > based on what we've heard.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > My second recovery which took place over 9 years ago in Zion is
                                                  still
                                                  > > not a conclusive statement? Was she pushed or did she just make a
                                                  > > stupid blunder? We may never know? I have an opinion, but would
                                                  > > rather not state it because I don't have all of the facts.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Maybe what I'm trying to say Michael is that I believe rather
                                                  than
                                                  > > making hasty comments, I would rather be cautious until all the
                                                  facts
                                                  > > are laid out in front of me.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for your comments and putting me straight.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael Blitch
                                                  > > <mblitch@> wrote:
                                                  > >> When one has the same set of facts in either situation, your
                                                  > > assessment
                                                  > >> should not make a difference if you knew the entities involved
                                                  or
                                                  > > not.
                                                  > >> Only being able to attach personal emotion to such things in
                                                  order
                                                  > > to
                                                  > >> attempt to change the position of another is a crutch . If the
                                                  only
                                                  > > way
                                                  > >> you can argue a point is to use weak lines such as 'well what if
                                                  it
                                                  > > was
                                                  > >> your child', then perhaps your orator skills are ineffective.
                                                  Too
                                                  > > many
                                                  > >> people have no means of considering things other than completely
                                                  > >> subjectively as they have been pussy-footed around difficult
                                                  issue
                                                  > > all
                                                  > >> of their life, and personal responsibility goes out the window.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> What happens when mothers, sisters, children, or whatever start
                                                  > > yelling
                                                  > >> out loud about the dangers of the evil hikes and the NPS is
                                                  forced
                                                  > > to
                                                  > >> shut down the trail because some member of Congress is trying to
                                                  > > earn
                                                  > >> votes by threatening to cut funding if the park doesn't do
                                                  > > something
                                                  > >> about the 'killer trails'? Objective you should recognize that
                                                  is
                                                  > > not
                                                  > >> beyond the scope of modern reality. This isn't a case of some
                                                  > > hidden
                                                  > >> danger. One is walking on what may almost be literally termed
                                                  > > a 'knife
                                                  > >> edge' in locations where an misstep will obviously end in death.
                                                  It
                                                  > >> isn't like they walked into an unmarked minefield. Why shouldn't
                                                  > > people
                                                  > >> make arguments based on the information at hand? as new data
                                                  comes
                                                  > > in
                                                  > >> then one should be able to change or adjust; it is the simple
                                                  > > scientific
                                                  > >> method.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Yes, I have had friends die doing very stupid stuff, like drunk
                                                  > > driving,
                                                  > >> and I'd say the exact same thing to others, including their
                                                  family.
                                                  > > It
                                                  > >> was stupid, they screwed up, and they paid for it with their
                                                  lives.
                                                  > > More
                                                  > >> often than not many of us walk away from very stupid things, but
                                                  > >> sometimes the piper has to be paid. If you cannot take the same
                                                  > > tone
                                                  > >> when it becomes personal as you can when it is just somebody
                                                  else,
                                                  > > then
                                                  > >> one's position is weak and unstable. All the emotional boo-hoo
                                                  > > hooing
                                                  > >> will not accomplish anything. People, even the families, need to
                                                  > >> understand who was at fault; and unless someone was literally
                                                  > > pushed
                                                  > >> over the edge, then the responsibility often lies with the
                                                  person
                                                  > > that died.
                                                  > >> I'm sorry of your sensibilities are bruised and suggest you
                                                  attempt
                                                  > > more
                                                  > >> effective arguments. I know it isn't easy seeing anyone die. I
                                                  just
                                                  > > came
                                                  > >> from a memorial for a friend that died of cancer at 42, and
                                                  believe
                                                  > > me
                                                  > >> watching a slow death isn't easier that a quick one. That at
                                                  least
                                                  > > was
                                                  > >> the fault of no one, it is just the circle of life kind of
                                                  stuff.
                                                  > > Get on
                                                  > >> with it, we have. I've thought out my position and if I or a
                                                  loved
                                                  > > one
                                                  > >> died doing the same thing, then I hope that is what is said. I
                                                  > > wouldn't
                                                  > >> want people to just whine and complain about it, learn from it.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Bo wrote:
                                                  > >>> Michael, do you have any family or friends that may have died
                                                  > > because
                                                  > >>> of what you percieve as a mistake or poor judgement? Maybe you
                                                  > > ought to
                                                  > >>> reserve your comments for them so that at least you can speak
                                                  > > face to
                                                  > >>> face with their loved ones and explain their stupid mistakes
                                                  > >>> and "darwinism". I'm sure they would understand you better
                                                  since
                                                  > > you
                                                  > >>> are an acquaintence? Might be that you chose poorly?
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Michael
                                                  Blitch
                                                  > >>> <mblitch@> wrote:
                                                  > >>>> It can suck, but I agree that people are responsible for their
                                                  > > own
                                                  > >>>> lives. In some case it is just stupid mistakes and Darwinism
                                                  > > (such as
                                                  > >>> in
                                                  > >>>> the case of the 14 year-old intent on vandalism) that can lead
                                                  > > the
                                                  > >>>> deaths. It is like drinking from the chalice in the Indiana
                                                  > > Jones
                                                  > >>>> movies; "He chose poorly".
                                                  >
                                                • luvs_to_hike
                                                  I hope you and the family find a way to heal. Take care.
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jun 12, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment

                                                    I hope you and the family find a way to heal.  Take care.


                                                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dlgertz" <dlgertz@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hello, this is David, I was right behind Barry who fell of the
                                                    > mountain on friday. we had reached the top, had water and garanola
                                                    > bars and started down. Barry was first followed by his daughter,
                                                    > then my daughter then me. we were on the saddle between the two
                                                    > hills on the easy part. he just slipped. nothing else, just one in
                                                    > a million chance of slipping right there. he started sliding towards
                                                    > his right and could not grab anything to stop himself and he just
                                                    > went over the
                                                    > edge.

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