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Opinion: Declining park visits: Good news, or ominous?

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  • ~*~News Today~*~
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    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 6, 2007
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      The number of visitors to many national parks in Utah and around the country is dropping.
          According to a recent article by The Los Angeles Times' Julie Cart, overnight stays in national parks fell 20 percent between 1995 and 2005, and tent and backcountry camping dropped 24 percent during the same period.
          The Federal Parks and Recreation newsletter reported visitation decreased 1.9 percent from 2005 to 2006. But the numbers were actually worse. An extra 2.1 million who attended the Cherry Blossom Festival in Washington, D.C. were counted in 2006, but not in 2005.
          In Utah, park visitation fell 1.8 percent in 2005. Bryce Canyon and Hovenweep both experienced a 17 percent decline.
          The decreases raise issues for those of us here in Utah who love national parks, as well as for gateway-community residents and gear manufacturers relying heavily on the money park visitors generate.
          From a purely selfish standpoint, I view the decline favorably. Increased visitation can detract from the experience. Many parks, trails and campgrounds have reached their "people capacity," and resources were becoming damaged.
          There are many reasons for the decline.
          Modern kids would rather spend time in front of a video game or television than enjoying the outdoors and, when their parents do take them on a vacation, are often more
      interested in going to a theme park or Las Vegas.
          On the other end of the spectrum, baby boomers are aging to the point where many prefer the comforts of a high-end lodge or spa to the rigors of spending a night in the tent or in a rustic cabin.
          Recreation use has also changed. A hike or quiet spot to enjoy nature no longer seems enough for a number of outdoor enthusiasts who view public lands as giant playgrounds. They don't appreciate the use restrictions inside national parks which don't operate under the same multiple-use principles as the U.S. Forest Service or Bureau of Land Management.
          Fee increases may also be driving families away. Entry to Zion National Park increased $5 this year to $25 for a seven-day pass. That might discourage some families from veering off the Interstate and spending an hour or two on a hike. Many other fees inside parks, including camping fees, have also risen.
          These factors point to the oxymoronic nature of the National Park Service's mission. On one hand, managers are charged with protecting resources for future generations. On the other, their mission is to help Americans enjoy the parks.
          Those who don't mountain bike or do much off-highway vehicle riding prefer the parks as they are. In most national parks, overnight visitors have the option of camping in a basic facility that usually provides running water, a picnic table, restrooms and a fire pit, or they can drive a few miles outside the park and stay in a gateway-community motel.
          If, as some advocate, national parks gave in to more commercialized lodging and relaxed restrictive regulations, their mission would be compromised. The parks should remain as wild and natural refuges, affordable to the public.
          Congress and presidents have not made maintaining parks a priority. Fees have been raised, but there have only been minimal improvements to the experience. Park visitors are paying more for less.
          Should we be concerned that national park visitation is dropping?
          Perhaps.
          But we should be more worried the drop could result in radical changes that might destroy the nature and refuge the parks provide.
          ---
          * TOM WHARTON can be contacted at wharton@.... His phone number is 801-257-8909. Send comments about this column to
      livingeditor@....


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    • bomabro84738
      Glad that there are those that can stand up and oppose that which they don t agree with! There has to be a balance somewhere down the line. I say...Good on
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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        Glad that there are those that can stand up and oppose that which
        they don't agree with! There has to be a balance somewhere down the
        line. I say...Good on "Em"!

        Our own little saga continues with a meeting with SITLA next week.
        The city will be present and thankfully lean on our side of
        constructive preservation of Moes Valley and the trail network that
        makes these 2000 acres so special.

        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, ~*~News Today~*~
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        10px"; } The number of
        visitors to many national parks in Utah and around the country is
        dropping.
        > According to a recent article by The Los Angeles Times' Julie
        Cart, overnight stays in national parks fell 20 percent between 1995
        and 2005, and tent and backcountry camping dropped 24 percent during
        the same period.
        > The Federal Parks and Recreation newsletter reported visitation
        decreased 1.9 percent from 2005 to 2006. But the numbers were
        actually worse. An extra 2.1 million who attended the Cherry Blossom
        Festival in Washington, D.C. were counted in 2006, but not in 2005.
        > In Utah, park visitation fell 1.8 percent in 2005. Bryce Canyon
        and Hovenweep both experienced a 17 percent decline.
        > The decreases raise issues for those of us here in Utah who
        love national parks, as well as for gateway-community residents and
        gear manufacturers relying heavily on the money park visitors
        generate.
        > From a purely selfish standpoint, I view the decline favorably.
        Increased visitation can detract from the experience. Many parks,
        trails and campgrounds have reached their "people capacity," and
        resources were becoming damaged.
        > There are many reasons for the decline.
        > Modern kids would rather spend time in front of a video game or
        television than enjoying the outdoors and, when their parents do take
        them on a vacation, are often more interested in going to a theme
        park or Las Vegas.
        > On the other end of the spectrum, baby boomers are aging to the
        point where many prefer the comforts of a high-end lodge or spa to
        the rigors of spending a night in the tent or in a rustic cabin.
        > Recreation use has also changed. A hike or quiet spot to enjoy
        nature no longer seems enough for a number of outdoor enthusiasts who
        view public lands as giant playgrounds. They don't appreciate the use
        restrictions inside national parks which don't operate under the same
        multiple-use principles as the U.S. Forest Service or Bureau of Land
        Management.
        > Fee increases may also be driving families away. Entry to Zion
        National Park increased $5 this year to $25 for a seven-day pass.
        That might discourage some families from veering off the Interstate
        and spending an hour or two on a hike. Many other fees inside parks,
        including camping fees, have also risen.
        > These factors point to the oxymoronic nature of the National
        Park Service's mission. On one hand, managers are charged with
        protecting resources for future generations. On the other, their
        mission is to help Americans enjoy the parks.
        > Those who don't mountain bike or do much off-highway vehicle
        riding prefer the parks as they are. In most national parks,
        overnight visitors have the option of camping in a basic facility
        that usually provides running water, a picnic table, restrooms and a
        fire pit, or they can drive a few miles outside the park and stay in
        a gateway-community motel.
        > If, as some advocate, national parks gave in to more
        commercialized lodging and relaxed restrictive regulations, their
        mission would be compromised. The parks should remain as wild and
        natural refuges, affordable to the public.
        > Congress and presidents have not made maintaining parks a
        priority. Fees have been raised, but there have only been minimal
        improvements to the experience. Park visitors are paying more for
        less.
        > Should we be concerned that national park visitation is
        dropping?
        > Perhaps.
        > But we should be more worried the drop could result in radical
        changes that might destroy the nature and refuge the parks provide.
        > ---
        > * TOM WHARTON can be contacted at wharton@... His phone number
        is 801-257-8909. Send comments about this column to livingeditor@...
        >
        > http://origin.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_5129713
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > The fish are biting.
        > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
        >
      • luvs_to_hike
        This is the part of the article that struck me [:-B] If, as some advocate, national parks gave in to more commercialized lodging and relaxed restrictive
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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          This is the part of the article that struck me  :-B

          "If, as some advocate, national parks gave in to more commercialized lodging and relaxed restrictive regulations, their  mission would be compromised. The parks should remain as wild and  natural refuges, affordable to the public. "

          I hate disney at the door step of the parks.  I have not been to a whole lot of them, and have read that Springdale is an exception, that most towns are not so close.  I hate having commercialism at the door of a park!  I hope other parks keep their rustic feel and detour all signs of commercial overtaking.

          Although the numbers are dropping nationwide, Zion and Bryce seem to be exceptions.  Their numbers I think are rising.  I know Zion's is and I assume with the bus travel through Bryce theirs is as well.  Perhaps the number of single famlies are not staying in the parks, but its hard to compete with Disney Worlds and all the indoor attractions that are around these days. 

          I am with you Bo.  The more trails and protected land, the better.


          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bomabro84738 <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Glad that there are those that can stand up and oppose that which
          > they don't agree with! There has to be a balance somewhere down the
          > line. I say...Good on "Em"!
          >
          > Our own little saga continues with a meeting with SITLA next week.
          > The city will be present and thankfully lean on our side of
          > constructive preservation of Moes Valley and the trail network that
          > makes these 2000 acres so special.

          http://origin.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_5129713

        • JoeB
          I was fascinated by these stats about national park visitation. Despite our surging population growth, most people are eating Burger King in front of their
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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            I was fascinated by these stats about national park visitation.
            Despite our surging population growth, most people are eating Burger
            King in front of their video games, vacationing less, and choosing
            vacations like Disneyworld. Things like hiking and backpacking are
            generally down in popularity, but "the greatest hits" of Zion will
            continually get hammered more and more by whirlwind vacationers --
            Emerald Pools, Angels Landing, The Narrows, Pine Creek, the Subway,
            etc. But go for a 17-mile hike up to Deertrap, and you're just not
            gonna see too many people up there with you! Most visitors are
            looking for high-reward/low-effort. I rejoice at this and love
            exploring areas that most people don't care about. There still are
            plenty of places to find solitude, even in Zion!

            I don't really fear the NPS over-commercializing Zion. There's not
            going to be a waterslide from Middle to Lower Emerald Pools. I don't
            see a river tubing stand at the Temple of Sinawava or a new cablecar
            ride to the top of Cable Mountain. I don't think that's economically
            viable for the NPS; private companies are having enough trouble
            trying to make that sort of thing work OUTSIDE the parks. (Ever hear
            of the Grand Canyon vacation park that's been stalled in development
            for several years now? Things like this tend to sound good to some,
            but they're usually a financial loss.)

            I'm with you guys as far as protecting the parks and their doorsteps,
            but I fear VACATION HOME SPRAWL more than Disneyland
            commercialization, at least in the Zion area. Too many people with
            money think in terms of *having* instead of doing (IMO), so this
            mindset causes million-dollar vacation log cabins to spring up all
            over the place.

            I've seen Springdale grow since I started going to Zion in the mid-
            70's; thankfully ordinances limit this to hotels, hotels, and more
            hotels. I'll die when I see the first McDonalds, HomeDepot, or water
            park open up there. The east side and outside the Kolob area have
            both seen a lot of fancy homes go up in only the past few years.
            (Remember when the North Fork road wasn't paved or even graded?)

            Death to the million-dollar vacation house! (said tongue-in-cheek) Do
            many of the owners actually venture into the beautiful park that they
            live so close to? All I want for my vacations are a good pair of
            shoes, my family and friends by my side, and my camera with an empty
            memory card!

            Ah... sorry for the rant! ;)
          • luvs_to_hike
            Rant!!!! It s awesome! I can agree more. Zion Mountain Resort on the east side of the park has plans to fill that land with stuff too. They have moved
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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              Rant!!!!  It's awesome!  I can agree more.  Zion Mountain Resort on the east side of the park has plans to fill that land with stuff too.  They have moved toward time-share cabins.  At least its cabins popping up on that side.  I hope it stays that way.

              I hate how close all the homes are getting to Zion on the south side.  Its really heartbreaking.  That area is growing like crazy, and yes, its not filled with hikers.  But people with money that like the weather and scenery, yet want to be close to a city.


              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...> wrote:
              >
              > I was fascinated by these stats about national park visitation.
              > Despite our surging population growth, most people are eating Burger
              > King in front of their video games, vacationing less, and choosing
              > vacations like Disneyworld. Things like hiking and backpacking are
              > generally down in popularity, but "the greatest hits" of Zion will
              > continually get hammered more and more by whirlwind vacationers --
              > Emerald Pools, Angels Landing, The Narrows, Pine Creek, the Subway,
              > etc. But go for a 17-mile hike up to Deertrap, and you're just not
              > gonna see too many people up there with you! Most visitors are
              > looking for high-reward/low-effort. I rejoice at this and love
              > exploring areas that most people don't care about. There still are
              > plenty of places to find solitude, even in Zion!
              >
              > I don't really fear the NPS over-commercializing Zion. There's not
              > going to be a waterslide from Middle to Lower Emerald Pools. I don't
              > see a river tubing stand at the Temple of Sinawava or a new cablecar
              > ride to the top of Cable Mountain. I don't think that's economically
              > viable for the NPS; private companies are having enough trouble
              > trying to make that sort of thing work OUTSIDE the parks. (Ever hear
              > of the Grand Canyon vacation park that's been stalled in development
              > for several years now? Things like this tend to sound good to some,
              > but they're usually a financial loss.)
              >
              > I'm with you guys as far as protecting the parks and their doorsteps,
              > but I fear VACATION HOME SPRAWL more than Disneyland
              > commercialization, at least in the Zion area. Too many people with
              > money think in terms of *having* instead of doing (IMO), so this
              > mindset causes million-dollar vacation log cabins to spring up all
              > over the place.
              >
              > I've seen Springdale grow since I started going to Zion in the mid-
              > 70's; thankfully ordinances limit this to hotels, hotels, and more
              > hotels. I'll die when I see the first McDonalds, HomeDepot, or water
              > park open up there. The east side and outside the Kolob area have
              > both seen a lot of fancy homes go up in only the past few years.
              > (Remember when the North Fork road wasn't paved or even graded?)
              >
              > Death to the million-dollar vacation house! (said tongue-in-cheek) Do
              > many of the owners actually venture into the beautiful park that they
              > live so close to? All I want for my vacations are a good pair of
              > shoes, my family and friends by my side, and my camera with an empty
              > memory card!
              >
              > Ah... sorry for the rant! ;)
              >

            • JoeB
              Yeah, every time we drive through from La Verkin, I m shocked by how much development is going on. 50 years from now, it will be vacation homes and condos
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                Yeah, every time we drive through from La Verkin, I'm shocked by how
                much development is going on. 50 years from now, it will be vacation
                homes and condos straight from St. George to Springdale and the
                Virgin River will be sucked dry.

                And the funny thing is that by that time, I'll be old and gray
                looking for a place to retire to and I'll think... gee, I love Zion
                so much, so right outside of Zion looks like a wonderful place to
                live! Oh the painful irony... :(


                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Rant!!!! It's awesome! I can agree more. Zion Mountain Resort on
                the
                > east side of the park has plans to fill that land with stuff too.
                They
                > have moved toward time-share cabins. At least its cabins popping
                up on
                > that side. I hope it stays that way.
                >
                > I hate how close all the homes are getting to Zion on the south
                side.
                > Its really heartbreaking. That area is growing like crazy, and
                yes, its
                > not filled with hikers. But people with money that like the
                weather and
                > scenery, yet want to be close to a city.
                >
              • luvs_to_hike
                Yeah [:D] It s okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion. Laws are good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                  Yeah  :D

                  It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion.  Laws are good!  Wilderness and protection is great!


                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yeah, every time we drive through from La Verkin, I'm shocked by how
                  > much development is going on. 50 years from now, it will be vacation
                  > homes and condos straight from St. George to Springdale and the
                  > Virgin River will be sucked dry.
                  >
                  > And the funny thing is that by that time, I'll be old and gray
                  > looking for a place to retire to and I'll think... gee, I love Zion
                  > so much, so right outside of Zion looks like a wonderful place to
                  > live! Oh the painful irony... :(

                • Gary
                  What about the land across from Mt Carmel and Orderville where the big log houses are. I remember Jackson Hole when there was not much there 25 years ago. In
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                    What about the land across from Mt Carmel and Orderville where the
                    big log houses are. I remember Jackson Hole when there was not much
                    there 25 years ago. In 1980 there were 6000 people now there are
                    30,000.-
                    Doesn't take long with development for a small area to grow.
                    All that land between the White Cliffs and Long Valley could be full
                    of houses in 20-30 years.-- In
                    Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                    <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Yeah [:D]
                    >
                    > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion. Laws
                    are
                    > good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Yeah, every time we drive through from La Verkin, I'm shocked by
                    how
                    > > much development is going on. 50 years from now, it will be
                    vacation
                    > > homes and condos straight from St. George to Springdale and the
                    > > Virgin River will be sucked dry.
                    > >
                    > > And the funny thing is that by that time, I'll be old and gray
                    > > looking for a place to retire to and I'll think... gee, I love
                    Zion
                    > > so much, so right outside of Zion looks like a wonderful place to
                    > > live! Oh the painful irony... :(
                    >
                  • dnally
                    So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from Kanab on up through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas would someday become a
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                      So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from Kanab on up
                      through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas would
                      someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks like it is
                      happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no less. Now
                      with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and snowy any
                      more during winters there.

                      And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have subdivisions and
                      communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and Kanab
                      through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing through
                      Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by itself is
                      another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest town in
                      Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have you seen
                      what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along both
                      highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of land for
                      sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((

                      Be careful what you wish for.

                      dNally

                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Gary"
                      <claytongarypalmer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What about the land across from Mt Carmel and Orderville where the
                      > big log houses are. I remember Jackson Hole when there was not much
                      > there 25 years ago. In 1980 there were 6000 people now there are
                      > 30,000.-
                      > Doesn't take long with development for a small area to grow.
                      > All that land between the White Cliffs and Long Valley could be full
                      > of houses in 20-30 years.-- In
                      > Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                      > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yeah [:D]
                      > >
                      > > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion. Laws
                      > are
                      > > good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Yeah, every time we drive through from La Verkin, I'm shocked by
                      > how
                      > > > much development is going on. 50 years from now, it will be
                      > vacation
                      > > > homes and condos straight from St. George to Springdale and the
                      > > > Virgin River will be sucked dry.
                      > > >
                      > > > And the funny thing is that by that time, I'll be old and gray
                      > > > looking for a place to retire to and I'll think... gee, I love
                      > Zion
                      > > > so much, so right outside of Zion looks like a wonderful place to
                      > > > live! Oh the painful irony... :(
                      > >
                      >
                    • Gary
                      Yes, and I also see that there is land sub-divided on the west side or Orderville too. All ready for someone to build houses and rent,sell or lease them out.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                        Yes, and I also see that there is land sub-divided on the west side
                        or Orderville too. All ready for someone to build houses and
                        rent,sell or lease them out.
                        Thats how a lot of land developers do it now, build the house and
                        then look for buyers. Jackson Hole is full of condos,townhouses and
                        cabins that have been empty for twenty years. Or people only rent
                        them like snowbirds or skiers.
                        In many places land that used to be open to hiking,now are closed
                        because the land owners do'nt want people just walking thru their
                        land.
                        Down near Tucson one of my favorite hiking areas in the pristine
                        desert was swallowed up by development in a single summer and the
                        trail was closed because it ran across now private land. Where once I
                        knew of Javalina dens,huge old cacti of many varieties and lots of
                        other desert flora and fauna, now were huge houses with no
                        inhabitants wasting water to keep the grass and non-desert species up
                        till someone bought them.
                        I moved out here to hopefully get away from over developed land. I
                        like it here where it's relatively quiet and the tourists have'nt
                        discovered whats here yet.--- In
                        Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally" <dnally@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from Kanab on
                        up
                        > through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas would
                        > someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks like it
                        is
                        > happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no less. Now
                        > with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and snowy any
                        > more during winters there.
                        >
                        > And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have subdivisions and
                        > communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and Kanab
                        > through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing through
                        > Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by itself is
                        > another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest town in
                        > Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have you seen
                        > what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along both
                        > highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of land for
                        > sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((
                        >
                        > Be careful what you wish for.
                        >
                        > dNally
                        >
                        > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Gary"
                        > <claytongarypalmer@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > What about the land across from Mt Carmel and Orderville where
                        the
                        > > big log houses are. I remember Jackson Hole when there was not
                        much
                        > > there 25 years ago. In 1980 there were 6000 people now there are
                        > > 30,000.-
                        > > Doesn't take long with development for a small area to grow.
                        > > All that land between the White Cliffs and Long Valley could be
                        full
                        > > of houses in 20-30 years.-- In
                        > > Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                        > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Yeah [:D]
                        > > >
                        > > > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion.
                        Laws
                        > > are
                        > > > good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yeah, every time we drive through from La Verkin, I'm shocked
                        by
                        > > how
                        > > > > much development is going on. 50 years from now, it will be
                        > > vacation
                        > > > > homes and condos straight from St. George to Springdale and
                        the
                        > > > > Virgin River will be sucked dry.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And the funny thing is that by that time, I'll be old and gray
                        > > > > looking for a place to retire to and I'll think... gee, I
                        love
                        > > Zion
                        > > > > so much, so right outside of Zion looks like a wonderful
                        place to
                        > > > > live! Oh the painful irony... :(
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • luvs_to_hike
                        The family that owns that land has lived here a long time. Dottie s mom, Lucy, was one of the original employees at the Thunderbird. Her granddaugher works
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                          The family that owns that land has lived here a long time.  Dottie's mom, Lucy,  was one of the original employees at the Thunderbird.  Her granddaugher works there now in the summers. I think they have always owned the land, but I could be wrong.  Dottie moved to Vegas and made a lot of money working in the area of finance before she returned here.  She could have just bought it recently.

                          Here is a link to her site.

                          http://www.quartercirclehranch.com/


                          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" <claytongarypalmer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > What about the land across from Mt Carmel and Orderville where the
                          > big log houses are. I remember Jackson Hole when there was not much
                          > there 25 years ago. In 1980 there were 6000 people now there are
                          > 30,000.-
                          > Doesn't take long with development for a small area to grow.
                          > All that land between the White Cliffs and Long Valley could be full
                          > of houses in 20-30 years.-- In
                          > Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, luvs_to_hike
                          > no_reply@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yeah [:D]
                          > >
                          > > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion. Laws
                          > are
                          > > good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                          > >

                        • luvs_to_hike
                          Scarey!!!! Is there enough water for growth in those places? St. George is sure taking a good chuck of the water.
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
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                            Scarey!!!!

                            Is there enough water for growth in those places?  St. George is sure taking a good chuck of the water.


                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally" <dnally@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from Kanab on up
                            > through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas would
                            > someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks like it is
                            > happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no less. Now
                            > with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and snowy any
                            > more during winters there.
                            >
                            > And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have subdivisions and
                            > communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and Kanab
                            > through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing through
                            > Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by itself is
                            > another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest town in
                            > Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have you seen
                            > what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along both
                            > highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of land for
                            > sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((
                            >
                            > Be careful what you wish for.
                            >
                            > dNally
                            >

                          • dnally
                            No, there s not enough water in the long run. That s why St George wants to spend billions on that Lake Powell pipe dream. Read this for an idea of what may
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 7, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              No, there's not enough water in the long run. That's why St George
                              wants to spend billions on that Lake Powell pipe dream. Read this for
                              an idea of what may be the future (nonexistance) of Lakes Powell and Mead:

                              http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0205powell0204.html
                              or
                              http://snipurl.com/19pmb

                              dNally

                              >
                              > Scarey!!!!
                              >
                              > Is there enough water for growth in those places? St. George is sure
                              > taking a good chuck of the water.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally" <dnally@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from Kanab on up
                              > > through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas would
                              > > someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks like it is
                              > > happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no less. Now
                              > > with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and snowy any
                              > > more during winters there.
                              > >
                              > > And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have subdivisions and
                              > > communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and Kanab
                              > > through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing through
                              > > Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by itself is
                              > > another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest town in
                              > > Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have you seen
                              > > what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along both
                              > > highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of land for
                              > > sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((
                              > >
                              > > Be careful what you wish for.
                              > >
                              > > dNally
                              > >
                              >
                            • Henk
                              Well, it s often said, money rules. Some call it progress.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                Well, it's often said, money rules. Some call it progress.  

                                It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion.  Laws are good!  Wilderness and protection is great!



                              • bomabro84738
                                Oh come on! It can t be that bad?!?! I know for fact that they ve only opened 4 more Golf Courses (or so) and the population has only increased by 60,000 since
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                  Oh come on! It can't be that bad?!?! I know for fact that they've
                                  only opened 4 more Golf Courses (or so) and the population has only
                                  increased by 60,000 since I moved to SG? I only experienced 3 times
                                  when water pressure required that I take a "Spit Bath". ???
                                  Ackhhh!!!!! Who needs water anyway!? I even had the city I live in
                                  offer to buy my water at 3 times "its" value!!! Wonder whats up?

                                  --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally"
                                  <dnally@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > No, there's not enough water in the long run. That's why St George
                                  > wants to spend billions on that Lake Powell pipe dream. Read this
                                  for
                                  > an idea of what may be the future (nonexistance) of Lakes Powell
                                  and Mead:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0205powell0
                                  204.html
                                  > or
                                  > http://snipurl.com/19pmb
                                  >
                                  > dNally
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Scarey!!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > Is there enough water for growth in those places? St. George is
                                  sure
                                  > > taking a good chuck of the water.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally"
                                  <dnally@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from Kanab
                                  on up
                                  > > > through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas would
                                  > > > someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks like
                                  it is
                                  > > > happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no less.
                                  Now
                                  > > > with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and snowy
                                  any
                                  > > > more during winters there.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have subdivisions and
                                  > > > communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and
                                  Kanab
                                  > > > through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing through
                                  > > > Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by
                                  itself is
                                  > > > another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest town in
                                  > > > Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have you
                                  seen
                                  > > > what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along both
                                  > > > highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of land
                                  for
                                  > > > sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Be careful what you wish for.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > dNally
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • bomabro84738
                                  Money? Cedar must have a shortage then? http://tinyurl.com/2vcgrg
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                    Money? Cedar must have a shortage then?

                                    http://tinyurl.com/2vcgrg


                                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Henk
                                    <henk.auwema@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Well, it's often said, money rules. Some call it progress.
                                    >
                                    > > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion. Laws
                                    > > are good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • JoeB
                                    That sounded like a shady deal, but it gives me an idea. I could fill up a few hopper cars of Great Lakes water, drive em down from Michigan, then sell them
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      That sounded like a shady deal, but it gives me an idea. I could fill
                                      up a few hopper cars of Great Lakes water, drive 'em down from
                                      Michigan, then sell them to St. George or Cedar City with a promise
                                      of more for $2.5 million. Then I'd be able to afford one of those
                                      McMansion log cabins right next to the golf course! I could then buy
                                      my own water back from me at a discount rate which would allow me to
                                      develop more desert land into a ritzy closed-gate community. :) Oh
                                      big money.

                                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bomabro84738
                                      <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Money? Cedar must have a shortage then?
                                      >
                                      > http://tinyurl.com/2vcgrg
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Henk
                                      > <henk.auwema@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, it's often said, money rules. Some call it progress.
                                      > >
                                      > > > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion.
                                      Laws
                                      > > > are good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • luvs_to_hike
                                      I hope they don t get it. I have felt safer on this side watching ST. George take the water. Zion Mountain Resort bought Chamberlain s Ranch (start of the
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                        I hope they don't get it.  I have felt safer on this side watching ST. George take the water.  Zion Mountain Resort bought Chamberlain's Ranch (start of the Zion Narrows) to solve their water problem.


                                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally" <dnally@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > No, there's not enough water in the long run. That's why St George
                                        > wants to spend billions on that Lake Powell pipe dream. Read this for
                                        > an idea of what may be the future (nonexistance) of Lakes Powell and Mead:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0205powell0204.html
                                        > or
                                        > http://snipurl.com/19pmb
                                        >
                                        > dNally

                                      • luvs_to_hike
                                        My 6 year old was just looking for something to take to school for sharing. We chose a book about the earth. He opened it up to take a look real quick so he
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                          My 6 year old was just looking for something to take to school for sharing.  We chose a book about the earth.  He opened it up to take a look real quick so he had some idea of what to tell the class.  On one page was a nice clean little city and on the opposite page was one with dirty air and stuff.  He quickly said...    oh I can show them St. George now and St. George a year ago.


                                          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Henk <henk.auwema@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well, it's often said, money rules. Some call it progress.
                                          >
                                          > > It's okay if they would grow the other way... away from Zion. Laws
                                          > > are good! Wilderness and protection is great!
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >

                                        • luvs_to_hike
                                          And more keep pouring in. The St. George area I believe is the fastest growing area in the US. Or at least it was last time I looked at anyone on it.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                            And more keep pouring in.  The St. George area I believe is the fastest growing area in the US.  Or at least it was last time I looked at anyone on it.


                                            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bomabro84738 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Oh come on! It can't be that bad?!?! I know for fact that they've
                                            > only opened 4 more Golf Courses (or so) and the population has only
                                            > increased by 60,000 since I moved to SG? I only experienced 3 times
                                            > when water pressure required that I take a "Spit Bath". ???
                                            > Ackhhh!!!!! Who needs water anyway!? I even had the city I live in
                                            > offer to buy my water at 3 times "its" value!!! Wonder whats up?

                                          • luvs_to_hike
                                            Maybe the Mayor is shy of growth? I hope so. It s nice to see him not jump at the deal. ... , bomabro84738
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment


                                              Maybe the Mayor is shy of growth? I hope so. It's nice to see him not jump at the deal.

                                              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bomabro84738 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Money?  Cedar must have a shortage then?
                                              >
                                              > http://tinyurl.com/2vcgrg

                                            • luvs_to_hike
                                              [:(] [:D] [:))] [:-/] [ :)] [;)] Too funny [B-)]
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                                :(:D:)):-/>:);)

                                                Too funny B-)


                                                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > That sounded like a shady deal, but it gives me an idea. I could fill
                                                > up a few hopper cars of Great Lakes water, drive 'em down from
                                                > Michigan, then sell them to St. George or Cedar City with a promise
                                                > of more for $2.5 million. Then I'd be able to afford one of those
                                                > McMansion log cabins right next to the golf course! I could then buy
                                                > my own water back from me at a discount rate which would allow me to
                                                > develop more desert land into a ritzy closed-gate community. :) Oh
                                                > big money.

                                              • Gary
                                                So Bo, you say you brought 59,000 friends with you when you moved to SG. LOL--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bomabro84738 ... George ... this
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  So Bo, you say you brought 59,000 friends with you when you moved to
                                                  SG. LOL--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bomabro84738
                                                  <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > the population has only
                                                  > increased by 60,000 since I moved to SG? I only experienced 3 times
                                                  > when water pressure required that I take a "Spit Bath". ???
                                                  > Ackhhh!!!!! Who needs water anyway!? I even had the city I live in
                                                  > offer to buy my water at 3 times "its" value!!! Wonder whats up?
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally"
                                                  > <dnally@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > No, there's not enough water in the long run. That's why St
                                                  George
                                                  > > wants to spend billions on that Lake Powell pipe dream. Read
                                                  this
                                                  > for
                                                  > > an idea of what may be the future (nonexistance) of Lakes Powell
                                                  > and Mead:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0205powell0
                                                  > 204.html
                                                  > > or
                                                  > > http://snipurl.com/19pmb
                                                  > >
                                                  > > dNally
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Scarey!!!!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Is there enough water for growth in those places? St. George
                                                  is
                                                  > sure
                                                  > > > taking a good chuck of the water.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally"
                                                  > <dnally@>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from
                                                  Kanab
                                                  > on up
                                                  > > > > through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas
                                                  would
                                                  > > > > someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks
                                                  like
                                                  > it is
                                                  > > > > happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no less.
                                                  > Now
                                                  > > > > with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and
                                                  snowy
                                                  > any
                                                  > > > > more during winters there.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have subdivisions
                                                  and
                                                  > > > > communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and
                                                  > Kanab
                                                  > > > > through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing through
                                                  > > > > Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by
                                                  > itself is
                                                  > > > > another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest town
                                                  in
                                                  > > > > Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have you
                                                  > seen
                                                  > > > > what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along both
                                                  > > > > highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of
                                                  land
                                                  > for
                                                  > > > > sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Be careful what you wish for.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > dNally
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • bomabro84738
                                                  No Gary, They all rode their bikes in from across the US ;-) ... to ... bomabro84738 ... times ... in ... Powell ...
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Feb 8, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    No Gary, They all rode their bikes in from across the US ;-)

                                                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Gary"
                                                    <claytongarypalmer@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > So Bo, you say you brought 59,000 friends with you when you moved
                                                    to
                                                    > SG. LOL--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    bomabro84738
                                                    > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > the population has only
                                                    > > increased by 60,000 since I moved to SG? I only experienced 3
                                                    times
                                                    > > when water pressure required that I take a "Spit Bath". ???
                                                    > > Ackhhh!!!!! Who needs water anyway!? I even had the city I live
                                                    in
                                                    > > offer to buy my water at 3 times "its" value!!! Wonder whats up?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally"
                                                    > > <dnally@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > No, there's not enough water in the long run. That's why St
                                                    > George
                                                    > > > wants to spend billions on that Lake Powell pipe dream. Read
                                                    > this
                                                    > > for
                                                    > > > an idea of what may be the future (nonexistance) of Lakes
                                                    Powell
                                                    > > and Mead:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0205powell0
                                                    > > 204.html
                                                    > > > or
                                                    > > > http://snipurl.com/19pmb
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > dNally
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Scarey!!!!
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Is there enough water for growth in those places? St. George
                                                    > is
                                                    > > sure
                                                    > > > > taking a good chuck of the water.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "dnally"
                                                    > > <dnally@>
                                                    > > > > wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > So true Gary. I have always thought that Highway 89 from
                                                    > Kanab
                                                    > > on up
                                                    > > > > > through Panguitch and all the way to Richfield and Salinas
                                                    > would
                                                    > > > > > someday become a desirable place to live. Sadly, it looks
                                                    > like
                                                    > > it is
                                                    > > > > > happening sooner than later, and at a quick pace too no
                                                    less.
                                                    > > Now
                                                    > > > > > with global warming and all, it's not even that cold and
                                                    > snowy
                                                    > > any
                                                    > > > > > more during winters there.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > And with the Lake Powell Pipeline, you can have
                                                    subdivisions
                                                    > and
                                                    > > > > > communities sprout up all along the way in between Page and
                                                    > > Kanab
                                                    > > > > > through beautiful Paria River country, then continuing
                                                    through
                                                    > > > > > Fredonia, Hildale, all the way to Hurricane (which all by
                                                    > > itself is
                                                    > > > > > another town that is supposed to someday be the biggest
                                                    town
                                                    > in
                                                    > > > > > Washington County--even bigger than St George)! And have
                                                    you
                                                    > > seen
                                                    > > > > > what they are doing on top of the Hurricane Cliffs along
                                                    both
                                                    > > > > > highways, and even up the Kolob Terrace Rd? Big parcels of
                                                    > land
                                                    > > for
                                                    > > > > > sale everywhere. Virgin is really trying to grow too! :(((((
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Be careful what you wish for.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > dNally
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • K. Weiszhaar
                                                    I believe there s a Great Lakes water compact among the U.S. states and Canadian provinces prohibiting taking Great Lakes water out of the basin. Karl in Denco
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Feb 11, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I believe there's a Great Lakes water compact among the U.S.
                                                      states and Canadian provinces prohibiting taking Great Lakes water out of
                                                      the basin.

                                                      Karl in Denco


                                                      At 07:30 2/8/07, JoeB wrote:
                                                      >That sounded like a shady deal, but it gives me an idea. I could fill
                                                      >up a few hopper cars of Great Lakes water, drive 'em down from
                                                      >Michigan, then sell them to St. George or Cedar City with a promise
                                                      >of more for $2.5 million. Then I'd be able to afford one of those
                                                      >McMansion log cabins right next to the golf course! I could then buy
                                                      >my own water back from me at a discount rate which would allow me to
                                                      >develop more desert land into a ritzy closed-gate community. :) Oh
                                                      >big money.
                                                    • Kevin McNitt
                                                      I was going to make a similar comment but I know JoeB just ment in jest. There fights with the water bottling companies that they are in violation. Our most
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Feb 12, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I was going to make a similar comment but I know JoeB just ment in
                                                        jest. There fights with the water bottling companies that they are
                                                        in violation.

                                                        Our most valuable natural resource is the Great Lakes. We don't want
                                                        anyone taking it, but we sure could do a better job taking care of
                                                        it.

                                                        Kevin from the Shore of Lake Michigan



                                                        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "K. Weiszhaar"
                                                        <taxista@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > I believe there's a Great Lakes water compact among the
                                                        U.S.
                                                        > states and Canadian provinces prohibiting taking Great Lakes water
                                                        out of
                                                        > the basin.
                                                        >
                                                        > Karl in Denco
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > At 07:30 2/8/07, JoeB wrote:
                                                        > >That sounded like a shady deal, but it gives me an idea. I could
                                                        fill
                                                        > >up a few hopper cars of Great Lakes water, drive 'em down from
                                                        > >Michigan, then sell them to St. George or Cedar City with a
                                                        promise
                                                        > >of more for $2.5 million. Then I'd be able to afford one of those
                                                        > >McMansion log cabins right next to the golf course! I could then
                                                        buy
                                                        > >my own water back from me at a discount rate which would allow me
                                                        to
                                                        > >develop more desert land into a ritzy closed-gate community. :) Oh
                                                        > >big money.
                                                        >
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