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Re: perspective on fires

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  • luvs_to_hike
    Just when I was thinking that selective logging must be the way to go, a couple of guys in the Grand Canyon Group convinced me otherwise. Good Posts there if
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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      Just when I was thinking that selective logging must be the way to go, a couple of guys in the Grand Canyon Group convinced me otherwise. 

      Good Posts there if any of you are interested.  The 2 posts seem to sum up why fires are allowed for anyone that wonders like me :D

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20425

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20426

       

       I do agree 100% with Dean.  The Warm Fire has now cost 5.2 Million Dollars!  Closed the North Rim for days {and as Dean says --- What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit. } and should never had been allowed to be so big.  Not knowing much about this stuff, but my thought is that letting a little fire burn for a day or two if the sky were cloudy and rain was predicted would be okay, but it does not seem all that brilliant to let a fire burn in the hot arid conditions we have right now or at least burn much at all?


      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Kurtz" <dkurtz@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have lived here since 1979. Until Bridger Knoll in '94 or '95, I cannot remember a large fire on the N. Kaibab Ranger District, and by large I mean over 10,000 acres. The Warm Fire right now is larger than Bridger Knoll got. It seems like not only are the fires earlier, but they are significantly larger and more dangerous. Funny thing is that there was absolutely no reason for the Warm Fire to get as big and out of control as it has ended up being nor cost as much when compared to other large fires in the area, such as the Jarvis Fire. At any time during the first 9 days it appears as if a single crew could have easily contained and extinguished the small blaze. What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit.

    • Dean Kurtz
      Cross post from me at the GC group: Let me add to this. When the man who is the retired fire management officer for the N. Kaibab Ranger District (a man who
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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        Cross post from me at the GC group:
         
        Let me add to this.  When the man who is the retired fire management officer for the N. Kaibab Ranger District (a man who is currently a sitting judge, a very well respected member of the community, and a man known for his honesty, friendliness, and tolerance) says that the FS dropped the ball and that somebody needs to be held accountable, folks should listen.  See here: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=334195  Weigh that against the comments that the acting FMO makes in that article and this one: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=333129  I also know the acting FMO, and I used to like him and respect him, but after this fiasco I wouldn't give him the time of day.
         
        I'm not willing to argue the benefits of fire vs. logging, as I think they both have their place.  As someone mentioned, fire is a useful tool for removing undergrowth and reducing what are called ladder fuels, the purpose being to prevent giant wildfires from developing and making it into the forest canopy, therefore allowing middle and old growth timber to remain healthy and viable.  There is definitely a use for fire in the management of our national forests.  But...I can't help but question the wisdom of allowing a fire to burn out of control after several years of drought, following a winter and spring marked by near record high temperatures and near record low precipitation, and relative humidity holding in the low teens.  Honestly, did they really expect this fire to moderate itself?  They should burn, but they should only do it when temperature, precipitation, and relative humidity can help to regulate the fire.
         
        YMMV
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 9:13 AM
        Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: perspective on fires

        Just when I was thinking that selective logging must be the way to go, a couple of guys in the Grand Canyon Group convinced me otherwise. 

        Good Posts there if any of you are interested.  The 2 posts seem to sum up why fires are allowed for anyone that wonders like me :D

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20425

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20426

         

         I do agree 100% with Dean.  The Warm Fire has now cost 5.2 Million Dollars!  Closed the North Rim for days {and as Dean says --- What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit. } and should never had been allowed to be so big.  Not knowing much about this stuff, but my thought is that letting a little fire burn for a day or two if the sky were cloudy and rain was predicted would be okay, but it does not seem all that brilliant to let a fire burn in the hot arid conditions we have right now or at least burn much at all?


        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Kurtz" <dkurtz@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have lived here since 1979. Until Bridger Knoll in '94 or '95, I cannot remember a large fire on the N. Kaibab Ranger District, and by large I mean over 10,000 acres. The Warm Fire right now is larger than Bridger Knoll got. It seems like not only are the fires earlier, but they are significantly larger and more dangerous. Funny thing is that there was absolutely no reason for the Warm Fire to get as big and out of control as it has ended up being nor cost as much when compared to other large fires in the area, such as the Jarvis Fire. At any time during the first 9 days it appears as if a single crew could have easily contained and extinguished the small blaze. What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit.

      • Dean Kurtz
        So I m stuck at work today and that has left me in one of those moods, maybe some of you know what I m talking about, it s one of those moods where you get
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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          So I'm stuck at work today and that has left me in one of those moods, maybe some of you know what I'm talking about, it's one of those moods where you get involved in an internet discussion about a touchy topic, and against your better judgement you say things that you're sure will start a fight or at least get you raked over the coals.  Any of you know what I mean?  Here's one of those comments:
           
          It is my not so humble opinion that the Warm Fire was a MAJOR screw up on the part of the FS.  I feel that those that made the decision to let it burn are no better than a common arsonist that would intentionally ignite a forest that belongs to the american public and that they should be treated as such.  I believe that charges should be filed for destruction of public lands/resources, whatever, and that they should lose their jobs and be held responsible for a portion or all of the extraordinary cost associated with fighting this "Wilderness Fire Use Fire".
        • W Reid White
          Howdy folks, Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City, Springdale and Mount Carmel Junction? Thanks, Reid
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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            Howdy folks,
             
               Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City, Springdale and Mount Carmel Junction?
             
               Thanks,
               Reid
          • Len Rugen
            There is a comercial campground in Springdale that has wireless. They have a hotel also. Our campsite was on the river and was out of range, so I went to
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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              There is a comercial campground in Springdale that has wireless.  They have a hotel also.  Our campsite was on the river and was out of range, so I went to their laundrymat.  I think I saw a cafe that had a wireless sign further away from the park entrance.  I didn't try them.  They are near the icecream shop.
               
              Len Rugen

            • luvs_to_hike
              I heard this same thing from one of the county leaders the other day. That person suggested that people get together and sue to try and correct how wildfires
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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                I heard this same thing from one of the county leaders the other day.  That person suggested that people get together and sue to try and correct how wildfires are managed. It does seem that wild fires have their place, but something drastic needs to be done to decide how those fires will be controlled ~imho~. 

                PS.. I dont think you are saying anything that should be blasted at all. :)  The Warm Fire has caused a lot of damage and I cant see anyone saying that it has been a good thing.  That has to mean someone messed up.


                --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Kurtz" <dkurtz@...> wrote:
                > It is my not so humble opinion that the Warm Fire was a MAJOR screw up on the part of the FS. I feel that those that made the decision to let it burn are no better than a common arsonist that would intentionally ignite a forest that belongs to the american public and that they should be treated as such. I believe that charges should be filed for destruction of public lands/resources, whatever, and that they should lose their jobs and be held responsible for a portion or all of the extraordinary cost associated with fighting this "Wilderness Fire Use Fire".
                >

              • W Reid White
                Howdy Len, Thanks! Happy Trails, Reid _____ From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Len
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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                  Howdy Len,
                   
                     Thanks!
                   
                     Happy Trails,
                     Reid


                  From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Len Rugen
                  Sent: Saturday, 2006 July 01 15:51
                  To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Wireless Access

                  There is a comercial campground in Springdale that has wireless.  They have a hotel also.  Our campsite was on the river and was out of range, so I went to their laundrymat.  I think I saw a cafe that had a wireless sign further away from the park entrance.  I didn't try them.  They are near the icecream shop.
                   
                  Len Rugen

                • gootwan
                  Reid, The Pioneer Lodge in Springdale has an internet cafe. I didn t use it for internet but I did go in to buy a smoothie (very good, btw) and there were
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
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                    Reid,
                    The Pioneer Lodge in Springdale has an internet cafe. I didn't use it
                    for internet but I did go in to buy a smoothie (very good, btw) and
                    there were people in there on their laptops.

                    Jordan

                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, W Reid White
                    <TarHeel.Canyoneer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Howdy folks,
                    >
                    > Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City,
                    Springdale
                    > and Mount Carmel Junction?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Reid
                    >
                  • Stan McQueen
                    I am currently staying at the Zion Park Motel, across from the Pizza&Noodle. The Pioneer Lodge, just up the street, has an internet cafe. You can use one of
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2006
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                      I am currently staying at the Zion Park Motel, across from the Pizza&Noodle. The Pioneer Lodge, just up the street, has an internet cafe. You can use one of their computers for 25 minutes for 2.50 or, for a purchase of $2.99, you can bring in your laptop and use their wireless for an "unlimited" time. My dialup access had expired, so I went over there yesterday to use their computer to re-up so I could use my laptop in the motel. Several motels also advertise wireless, but I expect you have to stay there to get it.
                       
                      I did Keyhole yesterday. The water is still fairly cold, but there isn't much of it. It was about waist deep in the pothole below the first rap. Other than that it was mostly ankle deep at most, except for the final swim, which was briefly about chest deep. I left my wetsuit in my pack and wished I had left it in the car. The water really stinks, though, especially in the upper portion (before the first rap). In there, it smelled like an outhouse. Luckily the water there is only ankle deep or so. I met four hikers coming out of the upper canyon after they had entered it in the middle and upclimbed through the upper part. I met them coming out as I was climbing down from the hoodoo pass. Other than that, I saw no one, but I did see some wet bootprints in the lower canyon, so someone had gone through not too much before I came along.
                       
                      Stan
                      =======================
                      Photography by Stan McQueen
                      http://www.smcqueen.com
                       
                       -----Original Message-----
                      From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of W Reid White
                      Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:52 AM
                      To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Wireless Access

                      Howdy folks,
                       
                         Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City, Springdale and Mount Carmel Junction?
                       
                         Thanks,
                         Reid

                    • W Reid White
                      Howdy, Thanks Stan and Jordan for the info. Very helpful. Happy Trails, Reid
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 3, 2006
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                        Howdy,
                         
                           Thanks Stan and Jordan for the info.  Very helpful.
                         
                           Happy Trails,
                           Reid

                         
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