Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

perspective on fires

Expand Messages
  • dstriek
    how do this year s fires compare to what you guys have seen over the years?
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      how do this year's fires compare to what you guys have seen over the
      years?
    • bomabro84738
      More fires earlier in the year than last year and other years as well. Shaping up to be a busy fire season!
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        More fires earlier in the year than last year and other years as well.
        Shaping up to be a busy fire season!

        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, dstriek
        <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > how do this year's fires compare to what you guys have seen over the
        > years?
        >
      • Dean Kurtz
        I have lived here since 1979. Until Bridger Knoll in 94 or 95, I cannot remember a large fire on the N. Kaibab Ranger District, and by large I mean over
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          I have lived here since 1979.  Until Bridger Knoll in '94 or '95, I cannot remember a large fire on the N. Kaibab Ranger District, and by large I mean over 10,000 acres.  The Warm Fire right now is larger than Bridger Knoll got.  It seems like not only are the fires earlier, but they are significantly larger and more dangerous.  Funny thing is that there was absolutely no reason for the Warm Fire to get as big and out of control as it has ended up being nor cost as much when compared to other large fires in the area, such as the Jarvis Fire.  At any time during the first 9 days it appears as if a single crew could have easily contained and extinguished the small blaze.  What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world.  It makes me want to vomit.
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:50 AM
          Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: perspective on fires

          More fires earlier in the year than last year and other years as well.
          Shaping up to be a busy fire season!

          --- In Zion_National_ Park_Hiking@ yahoogroups. com, dstriek
          <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > how do this year's fires compare to what you guys have seen over the
          > years?
          >

        • luvs_to_hike
          Just when I was thinking that selective logging must be the way to go, a couple of guys in the Grand Canyon Group convinced me otherwise. Good Posts there if
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment

            Just when I was thinking that selective logging must be the way to go, a couple of guys in the Grand Canyon Group convinced me otherwise. 

            Good Posts there if any of you are interested.  The 2 posts seem to sum up why fires are allowed for anyone that wonders like me :D

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20425

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20426

             

             I do agree 100% with Dean.  The Warm Fire has now cost 5.2 Million Dollars!  Closed the North Rim for days {and as Dean says --- What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit. } and should never had been allowed to be so big.  Not knowing much about this stuff, but my thought is that letting a little fire burn for a day or two if the sky were cloudy and rain was predicted would be okay, but it does not seem all that brilliant to let a fire burn in the hot arid conditions we have right now or at least burn much at all?


            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Kurtz" <dkurtz@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have lived here since 1979. Until Bridger Knoll in '94 or '95, I cannot remember a large fire on the N. Kaibab Ranger District, and by large I mean over 10,000 acres. The Warm Fire right now is larger than Bridger Knoll got. It seems like not only are the fires earlier, but they are significantly larger and more dangerous. Funny thing is that there was absolutely no reason for the Warm Fire to get as big and out of control as it has ended up being nor cost as much when compared to other large fires in the area, such as the Jarvis Fire. At any time during the first 9 days it appears as if a single crew could have easily contained and extinguished the small blaze. What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit.

          • Dean Kurtz
            Cross post from me at the GC group: Let me add to this. When the man who is the retired fire management officer for the N. Kaibab Ranger District (a man who
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Cross post from me at the GC group:
               
              Let me add to this.  When the man who is the retired fire management officer for the N. Kaibab Ranger District (a man who is currently a sitting judge, a very well respected member of the community, and a man known for his honesty, friendliness, and tolerance) says that the FS dropped the ball and that somebody needs to be held accountable, folks should listen.  See here: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=334195  Weigh that against the comments that the acting FMO makes in that article and this one: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=333129  I also know the acting FMO, and I used to like him and respect him, but after this fiasco I wouldn't give him the time of day.
               
              I'm not willing to argue the benefits of fire vs. logging, as I think they both have their place.  As someone mentioned, fire is a useful tool for removing undergrowth and reducing what are called ladder fuels, the purpose being to prevent giant wildfires from developing and making it into the forest canopy, therefore allowing middle and old growth timber to remain healthy and viable.  There is definitely a use for fire in the management of our national forests.  But...I can't help but question the wisdom of allowing a fire to burn out of control after several years of drought, following a winter and spring marked by near record high temperatures and near record low precipitation, and relative humidity holding in the low teens.  Honestly, did they really expect this fire to moderate itself?  They should burn, but they should only do it when temperature, precipitation, and relative humidity can help to regulate the fire.
               
              YMMV
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 9:13 AM
              Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: perspective on fires

              Just when I was thinking that selective logging must be the way to go, a couple of guys in the Grand Canyon Group convinced me otherwise. 

              Good Posts there if any of you are interested.  The 2 posts seem to sum up why fires are allowed for anyone that wonders like me :D

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20425

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Grand_Canyon/message/20426

               

               I do agree 100% with Dean.  The Warm Fire has now cost 5.2 Million Dollars!  Closed the North Rim for days {and as Dean says --- What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit. } and should never had been allowed to be so big.  Not knowing much about this stuff, but my thought is that letting a little fire burn for a day or two if the sky were cloudy and rain was predicted would be okay, but it does not seem all that brilliant to let a fire burn in the hot arid conditions we have right now or at least burn much at all?


              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Kurtz" <dkurtz@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have lived here since 1979. Until Bridger Knoll in '94 or '95, I cannot remember a large fire on the N. Kaibab Ranger District, and by large I mean over 10,000 acres. The Warm Fire right now is larger than Bridger Knoll got. It seems like not only are the fires earlier, but they are significantly larger and more dangerous. Funny thing is that there was absolutely no reason for the Warm Fire to get as big and out of control as it has ended up being nor cost as much when compared to other large fires in the area, such as the Jarvis Fire. At any time during the first 9 days it appears as if a single crew could have easily contained and extinguished the small blaze. What we are left with now is a heavily impacted forest, a reduced resource, more limited/restricted access for recreation, and the destruction of several miles of one of the prettiest drives to one of the prettiest destinations anywhere in the world. It makes me want to vomit.

            • Dean Kurtz
              So I m stuck at work today and that has left me in one of those moods, maybe some of you know what I m talking about, it s one of those moods where you get
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                So I'm stuck at work today and that has left me in one of those moods, maybe some of you know what I'm talking about, it's one of those moods where you get involved in an internet discussion about a touchy topic, and against your better judgement you say things that you're sure will start a fight or at least get you raked over the coals.  Any of you know what I mean?  Here's one of those comments:
                 
                It is my not so humble opinion that the Warm Fire was a MAJOR screw up on the part of the FS.  I feel that those that made the decision to let it burn are no better than a common arsonist that would intentionally ignite a forest that belongs to the american public and that they should be treated as such.  I believe that charges should be filed for destruction of public lands/resources, whatever, and that they should lose their jobs and be held responsible for a portion or all of the extraordinary cost associated with fighting this "Wilderness Fire Use Fire".
              • W Reid White
                Howdy folks, Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City, Springdale and Mount Carmel Junction? Thanks, Reid
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Howdy folks,
                   
                     Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City, Springdale and Mount Carmel Junction?
                   
                     Thanks,
                     Reid
                • Len Rugen
                  There is a comercial campground in Springdale that has wireless. They have a hotel also. Our campsite was on the river and was out of range, so I went to
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    There is a comercial campground in Springdale that has wireless.  They have a hotel also.  Our campsite was on the river and was out of range, so I went to their laundrymat.  I think I saw a cafe that had a wireless sign further away from the park entrance.  I didn't try them.  They are near the icecream shop.
                     
                    Len Rugen

                  • luvs_to_hike
                    I heard this same thing from one of the county leaders the other day. That person suggested that people get together and sue to try and correct how wildfires
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment

                      I heard this same thing from one of the county leaders the other day.  That person suggested that people get together and sue to try and correct how wildfires are managed. It does seem that wild fires have their place, but something drastic needs to be done to decide how those fires will be controlled ~imho~. 

                      PS.. I dont think you are saying anything that should be blasted at all. :)  The Warm Fire has caused a lot of damage and I cant see anyone saying that it has been a good thing.  That has to mean someone messed up.


                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Kurtz" <dkurtz@...> wrote:
                      > It is my not so humble opinion that the Warm Fire was a MAJOR screw up on the part of the FS. I feel that those that made the decision to let it burn are no better than a common arsonist that would intentionally ignite a forest that belongs to the american public and that they should be treated as such. I believe that charges should be filed for destruction of public lands/resources, whatever, and that they should lose their jobs and be held responsible for a portion or all of the extraordinary cost associated with fighting this "Wilderness Fire Use Fire".
                      >

                    • W Reid White
                      Howdy Len, Thanks! Happy Trails, Reid _____ From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Len
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Howdy Len,
                         
                           Thanks!
                         
                           Happy Trails,
                           Reid


                        From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Len Rugen
                        Sent: Saturday, 2006 July 01 15:51
                        To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Wireless Access

                        There is a comercial campground in Springdale that has wireless.  They have a hotel also.  Our campsite was on the river and was out of range, so I went to their laundrymat.  I think I saw a cafe that had a wireless sign further away from the park entrance.  I didn't try them.  They are near the icecream shop.
                         
                        Len Rugen

                      • gootwan
                        Reid, The Pioneer Lodge in Springdale has an internet cafe. I didn t use it for internet but I did go in to buy a smoothie (very good, btw) and there were
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Reid,
                          The Pioneer Lodge in Springdale has an internet cafe. I didn't use it
                          for internet but I did go in to buy a smoothie (very good, btw) and
                          there were people in there on their laptops.

                          Jordan

                          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, W Reid White
                          <TarHeel.Canyoneer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Howdy folks,
                          >
                          > Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City,
                          Springdale
                          > and Mount Carmel Junction?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Reid
                          >
                        • Stan McQueen
                          I am currently staying at the Zion Park Motel, across from the Pizza&Noodle. The Pioneer Lodge, just up the street, has an internet cafe. You can use one of
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I am currently staying at the Zion Park Motel, across from the Pizza&Noodle. The Pioneer Lodge, just up the street, has an internet cafe. You can use one of their computers for 25 minutes for 2.50 or, for a purchase of $2.99, you can bring in your laptop and use their wireless for an "unlimited" time. My dialup access had expired, so I went over there yesterday to use their computer to re-up so I could use my laptop in the motel. Several motels also advertise wireless, but I expect you have to stay there to get it.
                             
                            I did Keyhole yesterday. The water is still fairly cold, but there isn't much of it. It was about waist deep in the pothole below the first rap. Other than that it was mostly ankle deep at most, except for the final swim, which was briefly about chest deep. I left my wetsuit in my pack and wished I had left it in the car. The water really stinks, though, especially in the upper portion (before the first rap). In there, it smelled like an outhouse. Luckily the water there is only ankle deep or so. I met four hikers coming out of the upper canyon after they had entered it in the middle and upclimbed through the upper part. I met them coming out as I was climbing down from the hoodoo pass. Other than that, I saw no one, but I did see some wet bootprints in the lower canyon, so someone had gone through not too much before I came along.
                             
                            Stan
                            =======================
                            Photography by Stan McQueen
                            http://www.smcqueen.com
                             
                             -----Original Message-----
                            From: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of W Reid White
                            Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:52 AM
                            To: Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Wireless Access

                            Howdy folks,
                             
                               Anyone know of wireless access points in or near Cedar City, Springdale and Mount Carmel Junction?
                             
                               Thanks,
                               Reid

                          • W Reid White
                            Howdy, Thanks Stan and Jordan for the info. Very helpful. Happy Trails, Reid
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 3, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Howdy,
                               
                                 Thanks Stan and Jordan for the info.  Very helpful.
                               
                                 Happy Trails,
                                 Reid

                               
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.