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Re: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: Zion Permit System - overnights

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  • Shane B.
    ... you for your safety
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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      >> I always thought that one reason for the overnight permits was to track
      you for your "safety"<<

      I have noticed that the park seems to make a special point of noting that a
      permit is NOT for safety. Probably for liaiblity reasons.

      >>I always thought it was strange that the park doesn't care about overnight
      permits in less popular areas.<<

      Striaght from the Backcountry website "Backcountry permits are required for
      all overnight trips (including climbing bivouacs)".

      "I think some of the rangers may be giving out bad info -- or I always seem
      to talk to ones who make up the rules."

      >From personal experiance I would say only 1 in 10 rangers actually know the
      backcountry rules. Among the backcountry rangers the ratio goes up to a
      staggering 50%. I have written the park several times mentioning the fact
      that this is unexceptable. My god.... if only 50% of my employees knew what
      was going on I would be broke in a week.

      Shane
    • luvs_to_hike
      The park does some pretty good training. I am surprised that the rangers are so mis- informed, but they are only human. ;) When I worked at the Nature Center
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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        The park does some pretty good training. I am surprised that the rangers are so mis-
        informed, but they are only human. ;)

        When I worked at the Nature Center ... long ago (while in college).. the park super Victor
        Jackson would take us personally in a van all over the park. We would go to the Kolob, the
        Canyon .. hmmmm not the east side? ... and he told us of all the little folklore tidbits and
        information. That went on for 2 weeks daily and then there were classroom day for about
        a week. The new rangers were with us and went through the same training.

        --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@c...> wrote:
        > Tom - thanks for the info. I think some of the rangers may be giving
        > out bad info -- or I always seem to talk to ones who make up the
        > rules. I was specifically told on two occasions in the past few
        > years that permits aren't required for random camping, especially on
        > the east plateau by Cable/Deertrap Mnts and the desert/Coalpits
        > area. Wish I would have written down names.
        >
        > I guess if they'll issue a permit for Misery, why wouldn't they give
        > you one for backcountry camping?
        >
        > File that in the funny misinformation pile. :)
      • luvs_to_hike
        Doulbe booking might be fun depending on who you get to share with. ;)
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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          Doulbe booking might be fun depending on who you get to share with. ;)

          --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "JoeB" <joe@c...> wrote:
          > For discussion, as Shane mentioned, the overnight/camping permits
          > are a bit different and aren't as insidious as the tech canyon ones.
          > With overnight permits for the West Rim, the Narrows, and the Kolob
          > area, you pre-pick your campspot and it is yours (when the computers
          > aren't down and they don't doublebook).
          >
          > One thing I do like is that the best spots (IMO) are not available
          > online and I think that's a good thing. But I agree that it would be
          > great to have a permit office in the east canyon to save on the
          > wasted gas.
          >
          > I always thought that one reason for the overnight permits was to
          > track you for your "safety" (if they find your abandoned car,
          > they'll look you up in the database and go in after you), but I
          > always thought it was strange that the park doesn't care about
          > overnight permits in less popular areas. I have specificially asked
          > several rangers about this: no permit to camp on the east canyon
          > (Deertrap, Cable Mnt territory), Coalpits, Bridge Mnt route, Cougar
          > Mnt, etc. Granted, these are pretty barren unpopular places, but
          > you're more likely to get into trouble way out here where not too
          > many people are likely to walk by on a given day. I figured that the
          > park would want to regulate this usage, but I guess they don't care.
          >
          > Not that I'm complaining, but Tom, Shane -- what do you make of this?
        • luvs_to_hike
          I bet the park really loves you Shane. lol As a super though I bet they actually appreciate the info. It s embarassing not to know what is going on in the
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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            I bet the park really loves you Shane. lol

            As a super though I bet they actually appreciate the info. It's embarassing not to know
            what is going on in the lower ranks.

            --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shane B." <shane@s...> wrote:
            > >From personal experiance I would say only 1 in 10 rangers actually know the
            > backcountry rules. Among the backcountry rangers the ratio goes up to a
            > staggering 50%. I have written the park several times mentioning the fact
            > that this is unexceptable. My god.... if only 50% of my employees knew what
            > was going on I would be broke in a week.
            >
            > Shane
          • luciantia
            I ve been trying to an online permit and this thing has not been working for a while.
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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              I've been trying to an online permit and this thing has not been working for a while.

              --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shane B." <shane@s...> wrote:
              > >>Does this ever work? http://www.az.blm.gov/zionnppermits <<
              >
              > Not very often. It's pretty hard to get on-line permits when the system is
              > down a large portion of the time.
              >
              > >>PROPOSED FOR 2005 Reservations and Zion Express Permits will expand to
              > include a greater number of backcountry camp and day-use canyon areas.<<
              >
              > I have a better proposal..... why not remove the permit system entirely
              > except for the most popular canyons that the park feels need to be
              > regulated?
              >
              > I fail to see how expanding a flawed and cumbersome permit system is an
              > improvement.....
              >
              > Shane
            • Shane B.
              ... for a while.
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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                >>I've been trying to an online permit and this thing has not been working
                for a while. <<

                It is often off-line for days at a time.

                Honestly, The very best thing you can do at this time is to write to park a
                letter and list your complaints. Here is who you want to sent it to:

                Superintendent Jock Whitworth
                Zion National Park
                Springdale, UT 84767-1099

                I know it takes a couple of minutes of your valuable time but your help now
                in writing a letter will be a big bonus when the current permit system is
                re-evaluated this fall.

                Thanks
                Shane




                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "luciantia" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                To: <Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 10:46 AM
                Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: Zion Permit System


                >
                > I've been trying to an online permit and this thing has not been working
                for a while.
                >
                > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shane B." <shane@s...>
                wrote:
                > > >>Does this ever work? http://www.az.blm.gov/zionnppermits <<
                > >
                > > Not very often. It's pretty hard to get on-line permits when the system
                is
                > > down a large portion of the time.
                > >
                > > >>PROPOSED FOR 2005 Reservations and Zion Express Permits will expand to
                > > include a greater number of backcountry camp and day-use canyon areas.<<
                > >
                > > I have a better proposal..... why not remove the permit system entirely
                > > except for the most popular canyons that the park feels need to be
                > > regulated?
                > >
                > > I fail to see how expanding a flawed and cumbersome permit system is an
                > > improvement.....
                > >
                > > Shane
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Shane B.
                ... I m the guy who mentions that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. I m not really sure what to make of the Park and what they think of me........ I kind
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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                  >>> I bet the park really loves you Shane. lol <<

                  I'm the guy who mentions that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.

                  I'm not really sure what to make of the Park and what they think of
                  me........ I kind of get a mixed message depending on who is telling the
                  story :-) .........and I've heard a couple of good stories........

                  The park does have some talented, knowledgeable and dedicated personal
                  working for them.

                  >> As a super though I bet they actually appreciate the info. It's
                  embarrassing not to know what is going on in the lower ranks.<<

                  Somebody should be embarrassed for a lot of what I have witnessed. What
                  happens in Zion is not typical to what I have witnessed in other National
                  Parks....... maybe....... what happens in Zion stays in Zion???

                  Shane
                • luvs_to_hike
                  Are we talking personal adventures here or park problems? ;p With you around Zion I bet few have witnessed in other parks the sort of events they have in
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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                    Are we talking personal adventures here or park problems? ;p

                    With you around Zion I bet few have witnessed in other parks the sort of events they have
                    in Zion. ;)












                    If its the park that you refer too ......


                    ...you would think with the couple of law suits they have faced, like the boy falling from
                    Emerald Pools, that all dirty laundry would have come out. Although I cannot see how the
                    park did anything wrong in that sort of case so perhaps not. Has there been more than
                    this one?


                    --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shane B." <shane@s...> wrote:
                    > Somebody should be embarrassed for a lot of what I have witnessed. What
                    > happens in Zion is not typical to what I have witnessed in other National
                    > Parks....... maybe....... what happens in Zion stays in Zion???
                    >
                    > Shane
                  • luvs_to_hike
                    A photo and perfume paper might not hurt either. ;) (not you Shane) lol
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 3, 2004
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                      A photo and perfume paper might not hurt either. ;)

                      (not you Shane) lol

                      --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shane B." <shane@s...> wrote:
                      > >>I've been trying to an online permit and this thing has not been working
                      > for a while. <<
                      >
                      > It is often off-line for days at a time.
                      >
                      > Honestly, The very best thing you can do at this time is to write to park a
                      > letter and list your complaints. Here is who you want to sent it to:
                      >
                      > Superintendent Jock Whitworth
                      > Zion National Park
                      > Springdale, UT 84767-1099
                      >
                      > I know it takes a couple of minutes of your valuable time but your help now
                      > in writing a letter will be a big bonus when the current permit system is
                      > re-evaluated this fall.
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      > Shane
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "luciantia" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                      > To: <Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 10:46 AM
                      > Subject: [Zion_National_Park_Hiking] Re: Zion Permit System
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > I've been trying to an online permit and this thing has not been working
                      > for a while.
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