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  • what is a dooky <spookydooky@hotmail.com>
    Since the List seems to be growing by the day, I have a suggestion to make. Would it not be a good idea to indicate those characters that are confirmed to be
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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      Since the List seems to be growing by the day, I have a suggestion to
      make. Would it not be a good idea to indicate those characters that
      are confirmed to be lesbians? From recent additions I've noticed that
      the criteria for admission seem to be getting stricter, and this is
      strange considering some of the more spurious characters already on
      the list. Don't get me wrong, people are entitled to their opinions,
      and I for one would like to see the List grow. It's just that I
      personally feel that there's a distinction between characters who ARE
      lesbians and those that MIGHT be. Taking El-Hazard, for instance (I
      know, I REALLY should watch a wider range of anime ^_^) Fatora and
      Alielle are a canon couple, absolutely no doubt about it, whilst
      Shayla and Afura... well, I've never really understood that pairing,
      and personally I'd place Nanami above both of them ^_~ I can
      understand that when a couple has been adopted by fandom, it merits
      inclusion, but it's not the same as a confirmed couple. The same
      applies to the Sailor Moon entry... there might be reason to believe
      that the entire female cast are lesbians, but Haruka and Michiru are
      the only definite lesbians, so it's a shame not to see them listed
      separately.

      I realise that there's a big problem inherent in this- that
      relationships, particularly in anime and manga, are often open to
      interpretation. There were still people insisting that Haruka and
      Michiru weren't a couple until Takeuchi-san said that they were. I'm
      not really sure how such a system would work: I'm just suggesting it
      to see what anyone else thinks. Increasingly, obscure titles are being
      added to the List, and people are going to use it as a resource to
      seek out shoujo-ai. I'd probably be quite disappointed if I invested
      in something like Oh My Goddess (which has no less than three entries)
      expecting shoujo-ai. (Having said that, I love Oh My Goddess anyway,
      so that probably wasn't such a great example).

      Anyway, I'm not suggesting that any characters currently on the List
      shouldn't be there... just that I personally think there's a
      distinction to be made. What does anyone else think?

      dooky
    • gaffneys_99 <sean@centragarden.net>
      Ah, canon. I hate canon. I agree it might be nice to list them, but it s a very fuzzy, fuzzy line. Is Tomoyo a canon lesbian at the age of 10? Is Chloe?
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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        Ah, canon. I hate canon.

        I agree it might be nice to list them, but it's a very fuzzy, fuzzy
        line. Is Tomoyo a canon lesbian at the age of 10? Is Chloe? Are
        Mireille and Kirika? (IMO, yes, yes, no). What about the Iketeru
        Futari heroine? We see her having lesbian sex, but I'd hardly call
        her a list candidate. I like the general idea, but if it's going to
        lead to canon debates I'd like to opt out, as they tend to get very
        complex and opinionated (using opinionated in its worst possible
        way. ^_-)

        --SG
      • Erica Friedman
        ... It s a good idea, but not doable. I think that almost all of the suggestions I get from people are really wrong. LOL Practically none of the characters on
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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          >From: "what is a dooky <spookydooky@...>"

          >Since the List seems to be growing by the day, I have a suggestion to
          >make. Would it not be a good idea to indicate those characters that
          >are confirmed to be lesbians?

          It's a good idea, but not doable. I think that almost all of the suggestions
          I get from people are really wrong. LOL Practically none of the characters
          on the list are actually lesbian in the sense that I would define it. So we
          don't do it my way. We do it this way:

          If i see someone who is definitely a lesbian, I add them. If someone else
          suggests someone I thought might be, I add it. If two people suggest someone
          I don't know anything about, I add it, on the basis that I can't bloody well
          watch and read everything in the universe. If five people suggest someone I
          really, really think isn't, I add it, even though it's stupid. I mean, WATCH
          Gundam Wing. Those girls are straight, straight, straight. Every last one of
          them. There in NO yuri in that series. No go look at "The List." Everyone of
          them was suggested. Why? Beats the hell outta me! But there they are. LOL


          From recent additions I've noticed that
          >the criteria for admission seem to be getting stricter, and this is
          >strange considering some of the more spurious characters already on
          >the list. Don't get me wrong, people are entitled to their opinions,
          >and I for one would like to see the List grow. It's just that I
          >personally feel that there's a distinction between characters who ARE
          >lesbians and those that MIGHT be. Taking El-Hazard, for instance (I
          >know, I REALLY should watch a wider range of anime ^_^) Fatora and
          >Alielle are a canon couple, absolutely no doubt about it, whilst
          >Shayla and Afura... well, I've never really understood that pairing,
          >and personally I'd place Nanami above both of them ^_~


          Stricter? No. I wasn't the person who created the original list, so there's
          a lot of nameson there that I'd have never added in a million years, but so
          many people have also requested them, that they stay.

          I only add women who are actually lesbian, on my own. And about 3 out of 5
          times, people ask to add characters already there.



          I can
          >understand that when a couple has been adopted by fandom, it merits
          >inclusion, but it's not the same as a confirmed couple. The same
          >applies to the Sailor Moon entry... there might be reason to believe
          >that the entire female cast are lesbians, but Haruka and Michiru are
          >the only definite lesbians, so it's a shame not to see them listed
          >separately.

          But the list isn't "lesbians" It's lesbians, lesbain wannabees and lesbian
          ought-bes, so that I don't have to email every other person and explain why
          they are a total moron for thinking that two people who barely share ANY
          screen time are actually a couple, because they saw it once in a fic and
          thought it was cool. Thanks, but no thanks. :-)

          >
          >I realise that there's a big problem inherent in this- that
          >relationships, particularly in anime and manga, are often open to
          >interpretation. There were still people insisting that Haruka and
          >Michiru weren't a couple until Takeuchi-san said that they were.


          And then there are still people insisting that this is only because Haruka
          is really a guy in a girls body.

          I'm
          >not really sure how such a system would work: I'm just suggesting it
          >to see what anyone else thinks. Increasingly, obscure titles are being
          >added to the List, and people are going to use it as a resource to
          >seek out shoujo-ai. I'd probably be quite disappointed if I invested
          >in something like Oh My Goddess (which has no less than three entries)
          >expecting shoujo-ai. (Having said that, I love Oh My Goddess anyway,
          >so that probably wasn't such a great example).

          I understand what you're saying, but there's no way to do that that doens't
          put me in the position of playing judge...and having to keep fending off the
          Rayearth people who see Yuri where there is nothing. No plot, no character,
          no yuri, no anything. :-)

          >
          >Anyway, I'm not suggesting that any characters currently on the List
          >shouldn't be there... just that I personally think there's a
          >distinction to be made. What does anyone else think?

          Like I said, a nice idea, but I'm already getting nasty message asking "why
          is(n't) this person there" on a regular basis. Unless someone else wants to
          answer my mail... :-)




          Cheers,

          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org


          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
          The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

          Because fanfic does not have to suck


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        • Erica Friedman
          ... Agreed. Do we included women-identified women, like the leads from Haibane Renmei, or do we only count characters with open physical affection for each
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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            >From: "gaffneys_99 <sean@...>" <sean@...>


            >I agree it might be nice to list them, but it's a very fuzzy, fuzzy
            >line.

            Agreed.

            Do we included "women-identified" women, like the leads from Haibane Renmei,
            or do we only count characters with open physical affection for each other.

            How about the lesbian wannabees, which is about 2/3 of the list - characters
            that really aren't gay, but pretend to be, or have a crush on a female
            character for whatever reason.

            How about the lesbian oughta-bes, like all of the other Senshi and most of
            the characters from OMG, and all the others that fandom has pronounced gay,
            but let's be real... aren't. But they make good fic and doujinshi.


            Is Tomoyo a canon lesbian at the age of 10? Is Chloe? Are
            >Mireille and Kirika? (IMO, yes, yes, no).

            Funny, I say yes, no, yes. LOL



            What about the Iketeru
            >Futari heroine? We see her having lesbian sex, but I'd hardly call
            >her a list candidate.

            Agreed. She isn't gay at all, just has a skinship with her friends.



            I like the general idea, but if it's going to
            >lead to canon debates I'd like to opt out, as they tend to get very
            >complex and opinionated (using opinionated in its worst possible
            >way. ^_-)

            Agreed!




            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org


            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
            The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

            Because fanfic does not have to suck


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          • what is a dooky <spookydooky@hotmail.com>
            Yeah, I see your point. There are plenty of charcters where the line isn t clear. I just remember Erica talking on that documentary about characters that are
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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              Yeah, I see your point. There are plenty of charcters where the line
              isn't clear. I just remember Erica talking on that documentary about
              "characters that are clearly meant to be perceived as lesbians." Going
              back to El-Hazard, the Afura/Shayla thing is an example of a coupling
              that really wasn't intended by the creators. El-Hazard is hardly
              subtle in its exploration of relationships: if there was any chance of
              a genuine Afura/Shayla pairing, it would have been made abundantly
              clear. Any evidence that you can cite from the show is probably down
              to coincidence. Now, I don't disapprove of this- on the contrary, I
              personally believe that Nanami is bisexual, even though the creators
              didn't intend for her to be so.

              I can hear the objections now... "But how can you PROVE it?" Well, you
              can't really, short of asking the creators. Perhaps a better idea
              would be to add a small note next to each character- some of them have
              this already- at least in cases where the character's sexuality isn't
              glaringly obvious.

              In all of the examples you've given, there is some evidence for each
              of the characters. That's fair enough, and they should all probably be
              included. It's just that some of the early additions to the list look
              a bit dodgy to me (I really can't figure out why Skuld's up there, but
              each to their own I suppose). My point is that the criteria for
              inclusion on the list seem to be getting stricter, so there's
              something of a disparity between the new entries and the older ones...

              Well, it's just a thought really. I haven't been part of the Yuricon
              community for long enough to remember the origins of the List, but
              it's turned into a genuinely useful resource. The fact that the
              criteria are more stringent now is a good thing in my opinion, but
              with earlier entries it's still difficult to tell if there's real
              chemistry there, or just wishful thinking by fans ^_~

              dooky


              > Ah, canon. I hate canon.
              >
              > I agree it might be nice to list them, but it's a very fuzzy, fuzzy
              > line. Is Tomoyo a canon lesbian at the age of 10? Is Chloe? Are
              > Mireille and Kirika? (IMO, yes, yes, no). What about the Iketeru
              > Futari heroine? We see her having lesbian sex, but I'd hardly call
              > her a list candidate. I like the general idea, but if it's going to
              > lead to canon debates I'd like to opt out, as they tend to get very
              > complex and opinionated (using opinionated in its worst possible
              > way. ^_-)
            • what is a dooky <spookydooky@hotmail.com>
              ... there s ... but so ... out of 5 ... I m personally with you on this- if it was up to me, I d probably only add characters that were beyond all reasonable
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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                > Stricter? No. I wasn't the person who created the original list, so
                there's
                > a lot of nameson there that I'd have never added in a million years,
                but so
                > many people have also requested them, that they stay.
                >
                > I only add women who are actually lesbian, on my own. And about 3
                out of 5
                > times, people ask to add characters already there.


                I'm personally with you on this- if it was up to me, I'd probably only
                add characters that were 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. It doesn't
                seem to be so much of a problem anymore, but I used to get a bit
                disheartened seeing so many characters listed who weren't really
                intended to be lesbians... it kind of diminished the presence of the
                actual lesbians. I'm sure you must have heard the argument (equally
                applied to yaoi) that "there aren't any lesbians, so they have to make
                them up." I did wonder whether the presence of that lot from Gundam
                Wing, for example, might encourage that argument. On the other hand, a
                list run with 100% stringency could be equally problematic... I can
                just imagine the teeny tiny embarrassing List we might end up with if
                total proof were required.

                Oh, and I probably just imagined that the List was getting stricter,
                since there's been quite a lot of talk about characters in new manga
                who aren't quite up to it (as 'twere ^_^) If you're one of the only
                ones who's seen it, I suppose there's nobody to argue ^_~

                dooky
              • Erica Friedman
                From: what is a dooky I want to say that this is a really good topic, and I m glad you brought it up, btw. ... Then you re asking
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 4, 2003
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                  From: "what is a dooky <spookydooky@...>"

                  I want to say that this is a really good topic, and I'm glad you brought it
                  up, btw.

                  >I can hear the objections now... "But how can you PROVE it?" Well, you
                  >can't really, short of asking the creators. Perhaps a better idea
                  >would be to add a small note next to each character- some of them have
                  >this already- at least in cases where the character's sexuality isn't
                  >glaringly obvious.

                  Then you're asking me to have seen everything and read everything in the
                  whole world! LOL I don't *know* all of the characters. If a bunch of people
                  ask me to add a name and I've enever seen the series, I feel I should add
                  it. I have no way to judge, for example, whether what you are saying about
                  El Hazard is true - I have never seen it and have no plan to. I could have a
                  totally different opinion than you, after I did. :-)

                  >
                  >In all of the examples you've given, there is some evidence for each
                  >of the characters. That's fair enough, and they should all probably be
                  >included. It's just that some of the early additions to the list look
                  >a bit dodgy to me (I really can't figure out why Skuld's up there, but
                  >each to their own I suppose).

                  Because we received about 5 requests for her to be.

                  And I agree...because I didn't write up the original list.

                  My point is that the criteria for
                  >inclusion on the list seem to be getting stricter, so there's
                  >something of a disparity between the new entries and the older ones...

                  Think more that the early ones were more by "popular request" and the newer
                  ones are more likely to be from my experience.

                  >
                  >Well, it's just a thought really. I haven't been part of the Yuricon
                  >community for long enough to remember the origins of the List, but
                  >it's turned into a genuinely useful resource. The fact that the
                  >criteria are more stringent now is a good thing in my opinion, but
                  >with earlier entries it's still difficult to tell if there's real
                  >chemistry there, or just wishful thinking by fans ^_~

                  As I say, the List is for lesbians, lesbian wannabees and lesbian oughta-bes
                  and in the case of the latter two, I usually only have other people's
                  requests to judge from, so I use the frequency of a request as ameasure of
                  whether it goes on. You may be passionate about a character, but if I've
                  never seen it and you're the only one who asks, I can't make a legit
                  judgement. It might seem stricter, but it's not. I'm even willing to add
                  names that have been requested even if I don't agree - I just need to have a
                  critical mass.

                  Honestly, I completely see what you're saying. I really do. But do we keep
                  the any cast of BGC on there? There's an entire mailing list that says "no."
                  LOL And plenty here would say "yes." Who's right?

                  "The List" is mean to be for fun - and if I'm to save my sanity, then it's
                  got to stay that way. :-)





                  Cheers,

                  Erica

                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                  http://www.yuricon.org


                  "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                  The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                  Because fanfic does not have to suck


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