Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Yuricon] More Shonomen Yuri

Expand Messages
  • Erica Friedman
    ... Gotta totally disagre on this. Guys, like Tom Jones, or Elvis say - a guy who appeals to older women as well as younger, tries to do two things - radiate
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      >From: "Jared Plotkin" <cow10001@...>
      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Yuricon] More Shonomen Yuri
      >Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 12:40:54 -0500
      >
      >
      >Guys that appeal to older girls often try to be as manly as possilbe.

      Gotta totally disagre on this. Guys, like Tom Jones, or Elvis say - a guy
      who appeals to older women as well as younger, tries to do two things -
      radiate open, unabashed sexuality and to be "sensitive."

      It's the "sensitive" bit that women want - and it's a feminine concept. Guys
      for guys don't have that. Bruce Willis, say, in Die Hard. It's all about
      tough.


      >Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing something he will
      >NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken from other
      >stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.

      Gotta disagree again. Most "lesbian" sex a straight man watches is
      performed, for money, to titillate the straight man. It's bears little
      resemblance to actual sex between women, except superficially.

      >
      >So in other words, when a guy writes Yuri or a girl writes it, gay or
      >straight it really isn't that different because everbody is copying the
      >real gay girls in the first place. I challenge ANYONE to be able to deciper
      >gender soley on a story. It cant be done. Guys and girls dont write it that
      >different.

      Oh, yes they do. It's more about the story around the sex, but I bet I can
      tell gender 9 times out of ten, regardless of the genre. Women in general
      write differently, period. They focus on different things than guys do.

      >
      >In responce to people saying certain stories have sex and only sex, yes
      >that is true. But i know many lesbians who write like that, and many
      >straight guys who dont. So you cant use that to judge.

      You can if you judge not by the sex (although frankly, that's usually a dead
      giveaway, but by the language surrounding the sex...and the context for that
      sex...or lack thereof.

      >
      >And this is the INTERNET for crying out loud. I bet 1/3 of the people you
      >talk to lie about their gender, anyway!

      But age/experience/maturity/use of language can't lie. I don't care if you
      *say* you're a 35 year old male...your language and worldview will almost
      alwasy give away whther you actually are, or not.
      >
      >Lastly, i dont "prefer" stories written by guys or girls. If you can write
      >good, then i like it. Simple as that.

      I agree with that. But my level of "good" is more like Yan Martel, Banana
      Yoshimoto, Umberto Eco...most fanfic falls so short of that that I find
      little to none to be "good."



      Cheers,

      Erica

      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
      http://www.yuricon.org


      "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
      The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

      Because fanfic does not have to suck


      _________________________________________________________________
      MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
      http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
    • Eleanor Stevens
      ... I have to concur with Erica on this one. It s true how you write and the way you write it pretty much gives you a full bio on who you are. People can tell
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > You can if you judge not by the sex (although
        > frankly, that's usually a dead
        > giveaway, but by the language surrounding the
        > sex...and the context for that
        > sex...or lack thereof.
        > But age/experience/maturity/use of language can't
        > lie. I don't care if you
        > *say* you're a 35 year old male...your language and
        > worldview will almost
        > alwasy give away whther you actually are, or not.

        I have to concur with Erica on this one. It's true how
        you write and the way you write it pretty much gives
        you a full bio on who you are. People can tell from
        reading my stuff that I like comedy. A lot of comedy.

        On the other hand, you can tell many about Erica's
        views on life and love in general by how she writes.
        Much different from something I would write which
        would be filled with fluff and lust. Lots of lust.

        > I agree with that. However, my level of "good" is
        more
        > like Yan Martel, Banana
        > Yoshimoto, Umberto Eco...most fanfic falls so short
        > of that that I find
        > little to none to be "good."

        Well it is a 50/50-chance think. I do not think of fan
        fictions as great literary works. I love em cause they
        are a fan interpretation and fun to read. Therefore, I
        am not putting them on par with professionals like
        Andre Norton and Charles De lint. So I would not kick
        back and read "Purgatory"~ By Krys Bear and compare it
        to Faust. Or even compare it to something Naoko
        herself would spit out. Fanfic's to me are fun reads
        like comic's etc. So yeah in that respect fanfics
        aren't all that hot as a general rule but eggh like I
        said they aren't the next great American novel their
        fun things fan's do. In addition, I likes em like that.

        =====
        ~Tita

        "It's Showtime!"-Tita (Plastic Little the Adventures of Captain Tita)

        http://www.mindmeld.iwarp.com

        __________________________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
        http://mailplus.yahoo.com
      • Hypatia Kosh <athena_sappho@yahoo.com>
        ... will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken from other stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jared Plotkin" <cow10001@m...> wrote:
          > Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing something he
          will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken
          from other stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed
          it, lesbians.

          Maybe so (a lot of women in the sex industry *are* lesbians) but
          there's a world of difference between "lesbian" porn intended for
          straight male consumption and lesbian by/for lesbian porn.

          > So in other words, when a guy writes Yuri or a girl writes it, gay
          or straight it really isn't that different because everbody is copying
          the real gay girls in the first place. I challenge ANYONE to be able
          to deciper gender soley on a story. It cant be done. Guys and girls
          dont write it that different.

          I disagree. In slash fandom there are a few men who have immersed
          themselves in the lesbian subculture and can write convincingly from a
          gay or bi girl's POV. Most men, however, do not bother.

          It's common, at least in the yuri I've read, not to really address the
          homosexual issue and just say "love is love and sex is sex." I don't
          necessarily have a problem with this. However, I can often tell a male
          writer by the emotional falseness (and often rather ridiculous sex
          scenes).

          > In responce to people saying certain stories have sex and only sex,
          yes that is true. But i know many lesbians who write like that, and
          many straight guys who dont. So you cant use that to judge.
          >

          Sure, we women (er, "we"--well, I'm a bio woman so I'm including
          myself for the moment) do write stories that are just sex, or
          anonymous sex, or whatever.

          The difference between men's and women's writing is more subtle. For
          example, I read a story by a guy where this woman went on a bit of a
          sexual adventure and had sex with about 3 different women. The jarring
          moments came at the end of the story. Not only were the women's
          reactions to their "new found sexuality" just *strange* but the
          protagonist seemed to experience no emotional difference in having sex
          with her close friend, versus total strangers. Huh? And I repeat:
          huh??? I don't think so!

          > And this is the INTERNET for crying out loud. I bet 1/3 of the
          people you talk to lie about their gender, anyway!

          Of course they do. Doesn't mean there aren't women who write really
          ridiculous m/m and men who write really ridiculous f/f.

          > Lastly, i dont "prefer" stories written by guys or girls. If you can
          write good, then i like it. Simple as that.

          Good writing transcends the identity and gender of the writer. The
          best fiction will not scream "straight woman wrote this!" or "jerky
          guy wrote this!"

          -Hypatia
        • Eltink, Royi
          ... ...Suddenly there comes this 14-year old yaoi fangal to mind who asks me if I would check the fanfic she wrote... 0_0 Ro
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            > First of all, it has come to my attention that somebody said
            > that the general populace thinks that feminine males are sexy.
            > I wouldn't know (I am not attracted to guys) but i serioulsly
            > doubt it. Sure, feminine guys from boy bands and stuff might
            > get attention, but mostly from 13 year old girls who are
            > afriad of sex. Guys that appeal to older girls often try to
            > be as manly as possilbe. So i dont think this is true.
            >
            > Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing
            > something he will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of
            > his ideas were taken from other stoies or porn, written or
            > preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.

            ...Suddenly there comes this 14-year old yaoi fangal to mind who asks me if I would 'check' the fanfic she wrote... 0_0


            Ro'
          • Hypatia Kosh <athena_sappho@yahoo.com>
            ... I can ... general ... usually a dead ... for that ... if you ... almost ... If I may add to this, I think fiction is inherently self-revelatory, whether
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" wrote:
              > Oh, yes they do. It's more about the story around the sex, but I bet
              I can
              > tell gender 9 times out of ten, regardless of the genre. Women in
              general
              > write differently, period. They focus on different things than guys do.
              >

              > You can if you judge not by the sex (although frankly, that's
              usually a dead
              > giveaway, but by the language surrounding the sex...and the context
              for that
              > sex...or lack thereof.
              >

              > But age/experience/maturity/use of language can't lie. I don't care
              if you
              > *say* you're a 35 year old male...your language and worldview will
              almost
              > alwasy give away whther you actually are, or not.

              If I may add to this, I think fiction is inherently self-revelatory,
              whether the author realizes this or not.

              You are absolutely correct about the kind of language used. I much
              prefer it when the writer is able to affect a more "androgynous"
              writing style, rather than choking me with flowery euphemisms or
              attacking me with boot-to-the-head exposition.

              I'm not very good at judging the age of writers (being young myself!)
              but I can tell a kid a mile away. Hey--I was there not too long ago!
              Kids always think they're passing for older too--it's so funny.

              -Hypatia

              --
              http://hypatia.slashcity.org/

              "It's always nice to have an even mix of
              hot gay sex and actual information."

              --Captain Pedantic 12-14-01
            • Erica Friedman
              ... Can you indeed? LOL I bet not. I write fiction. 100% so. And my particular millieu is Voice - my characters rarely, if ever, sound like me...or think
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                >From: Eleanor Stevens <captaintita@...>

                >On the other hand, you can tell many about Erica's
                >views on life and love in general by how she writes.

                Can you indeed? LOL I bet not. I write fiction. 100% so. And my particular
                millieu is "Voice" - my characters rarely, if ever, sound like me...or think
                like me.

                You'd be hard pressed to determine the things that are important to me frm
                my fiction. With one exception - lesbian sex. Clearly a priority of mine.
                LOL




                Cheers,

                Erica

                Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                http://www.yuricon.org


                "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                Because fanfic does not have to suck




                _________________________________________________________________
                Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
                http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
              • Sean Gaffney
                ... I once got into a discussion with Nick Leifker, another fic writer, regarding how much of oneself needs to be put in a story. Nick invests almost
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Can you indeed? LOL I bet not. I write fiction. 100% so. And my particular
                  > millieu is "Voice" - my characters rarely, if ever, sound like me...or think
                  > like me.
                  >
                  > You'd be hard pressed to determine the things that are important to me frm
                  > my fiction. With one exception - lesbian sex. Clearly a priority of mine.
                  > LOL

                  I once got into a discussion with Nick Leifker, another fic writer,
                  regarding how much of oneself needs to be put in a story. Nick
                  invests almost everything he is into every story - they're almost
                  emotional experiences writing them. Whereas I am very removed from
                  anything I write, and despite the large amounts of angst and tears in
                  my fics, am always thinking things like "what if I had him step into
                  the remains of her head accidentally?" and things like that.

                  Certainly, looking over the body of work I've written, if people
                  thought they were my views I'm amazed they don't put a bullet in my
                  head. ^^;;

                  Regarding gender issues and yuri, what do people think about the
                  preponderance of nicknames/psuedonyms? I've always written my fics
                  as Sean Gaffney, so really haven't experienced anyone mistaking me
                  for a woman. (looks at his f/f porn) Not that anyone would anyway.
                  ^^;; But is it different for, say, someone who writes as
                  Nekochickie, or Integral's Womb, or something like that?

                  --SG
                • Shannon Stricof
                  Hehe, I thought you were a woman for a long time till I stopped seeing an a at the end of Johann. Whoops, -Shannon Ami Johann Chua
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Hehe, I thought you were a woman for a long time till I stopped seeing an "a" at the end of Johann. Whoops,

                    -Shannon Ami 

                     Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:

                    I get mistaken for female when I'm using my real name, so I guess a
                    _deliberately_ feminine-sounding nickname is likely to make people think
                    the author is female.

                    Used to use Fuuma Monou as my e-mail nickname but I always used my real
                    name in the signature.  I use Fuuma on ff.net, where I was accused of being
                    a "lesbien" over my St. Tail yuri lemon.
                    --
                    Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                    "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                    tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    Yuricon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
                  • what is a dooky <spookydooky@hotmail.com>
                    ... I ve been mistaken for a woman... I think the chan thing does it. I included it initially as a diminutive (yeah, I know it s ungrammatical to use a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > Regarding gender issues and yuri, what do people think about the
                      > preponderance of nicknames/psuedonyms? I've always written my fics
                      > as Sean Gaffney, so really haven't experienced anyone mistaking me
                      > for a woman. (looks at his f/f porn) Not that anyone would anyway.
                      > ^^;; But is it different for, say, someone who writes as
                      > Nekochickie, or Integral's Womb, or something like that?

                      I've been mistaken for a woman... I think the 'chan' thing does it. I
                      included it initially as a diminutive (yeah, I know it's ungrammatical
                      to use a suffix in your own name ^_^) I'm starting to drop it now,
                      though. One of my fics was reviewed recently, and both of the
                      reviewers thought I was female. One of them has known me online for
                      three years! They were full of apologies after I told them I was male,
                      but I took the whole thing as a compliment. After all, I write mostly
                      female characters, and a significant number of shoujo-ai
                      relationships, so if somebody can still think I'm female after reading
                      my stuff then I must be doing something right. Erica's correct- you
                      can usually tell the gender of the writer (at least in fanfiction
                      ^_^), and this is something I've worked hard to overcome. Not that
                      there's anything wrong with being, or even sounding male, it's just
                      that I'd much rather have a neutral voice. I make no secret of my
                      gender, but I just don't want it to be a huge determining factor on my
                      work.

                      As per the alias thing... as you can probably guess, dooky is not my
                      real name ^_^ I suppose I use an alias because in my everyday life,
                      I'm not a writer or artist. I'm a scientist, and these interests are
                      pretty separate by definition. George Hutcheon is the scientist, and
                      dooky is the writer/artist. This may well be indicative of some major
                      psychological condition, but it works for me ^_~

                      dooky
                    • Johann Chua
                      ... I get mistaken for female when I m using my real name, so I guess a _deliberately_ feminine-sounding nickname is likely to make people think the author is
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 07:02 PM 02/02/2003 -0500, Sean Gaffney wrote:
                        >Regarding gender issues and yuri, what do people think about the
                        >preponderance of nicknames/psuedonyms? I've always written my fics
                        >as Sean Gaffney, so really haven't experienced anyone mistaking me
                        >for a woman. (looks at his f/f porn) Not that anyone would anyway.
                        >^^;; But is it different for, say, someone who writes as
                        >Nekochickie, or Integral's Womb, or something like that?

                        I get mistaken for female when I'm using my real name, so I guess a
                        _deliberately_ feminine-sounding nickname is likely to make people think
                        the author is female.

                        Used to use Fuuma Monou as my e-mail nickname but I always used my real
                        name in the signature. I use Fuuma on ff.net, where I was accused of being
                        a "lesbien" over my St. Tail yuri lemon.
                        --
                        Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                        "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                        tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                      • Johann Chua
                        ... Probably helps that I mostly keep my ecchiness offline. ^_^ My name without an H would be JoAnn. Hmm. Though if I really wanted to stop the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 08:20 PM 02/02/2003 -0800, Shannon Stricof wrote:
                          > Hehe, I thought you were a woman for a long time till I stopped seeing
                          >an "a" at the end of Johann. Whoops,

                          Probably "helps" that I mostly keep my ecchiness offline. ^_^ My name
                          without an H would be JoAnn. Hmm. Though if I really wanted to stop the
                          gender-confusion, I'd be using my second name, Conrad, as well, but that
                          would take up too much header space.

                          There was a Johanna Chua (no relation) in my sister's graduating class in
                          high school.

                          At least one person reads my name as Joanne.
                          --
                          Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                          "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                          tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                        • Trixterpriest@aol.com
                          ... And I have to say, a damn good one ;p Kun ... *does a little lesbian sex dance*
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > You'd be hard pressed to determine the things that are important to me frm
                            > my fiction. With one exception - lesbian sex. Clearly a
                            > priority of mine.

                            And I have to say, a damn good one ;p

                            Kun
                            ----'-,-{@

                            *does a little lesbian sex dance*
                          • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
                            ... name ... stop the ... that ... You could go by J. Conrad Chua. C. Richard Davies.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Johann Chua <cjchua@m...> wrote:

                              > Probably "helps" that I mostly keep my ecchiness offline. ^_^ My
                              name
                              > without an H would be JoAnn. Hmm. Though if I really wanted to
                              stop the
                              > gender-confusion, I'd be using my second name, Conrad, as well, but
                              that
                              > would take up too much header space.

                              You could go by J. Conrad Chua.

                              C. Richard Davies.
                            • Eleanor Stevens
                              ... *Sweatdrops* Sorry Johann my mother is errr she s my Mom -.-** there s no other way to describe her. The ironic thing is the guy we got the money order
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:

                                > At least one person reads my name as Joanne.
                                > --

                                *Sweatdrops* Sorry Johann my mother is errr she's my
                                Mom -.-** there's no other way to describe her. The
                                ironic thing is the guy we got the money order from is
                                named Johann too. I was verrrrrrry disappointed in her.

                                =====
                                ~Tita

                                "It's Showtime!"-Tita (Plastic Little the Adventures of Captain Tita)

                                http://www.mindmeld.iwarp.com

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                                http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                              • Johann Chua
                                ... The universe does have a sense of humor. Joanne was on the Shoujo ML; your mom wrote Joann on the money order. -- Johann Chua -- HP:
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 4, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  At 06:26 PM 02/03/2003 -0800, Eleanor Stevens wrote:
                                  >
                                  >--- Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> At least one person reads my name as Joanne.
                                  >> --
                                  >
                                  >*Sweatdrops* Sorry Johann my mother is errr she's my
                                  >Mom -.-** there's no other way to describe her. The
                                  >ironic thing is the guy we got the money order from is
                                  >named Johann too. I was verrrrrrry disappointed in her.

                                  The universe does have a sense of humor.

                                  "Joanne" was on the Shoujo ML; your mom wrote "Joann" on the money order.
                                  --
                                  Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                                  "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                                  tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                                • Shannon Stricof
                                  Remember even God has a sense of humor, look at the platypus (The Dogma opening credits). -Shannon Ami, just cuz I felt the need to add in my 2 bits Johann
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 4, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    "Remember even God has a sense of humor, look at the platypus" (The Dogma opening credits).

                                    -Shannon Ami, just cuz I felt the need to add in my 2 bits

                                     Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:



                                    The universe does have a sense of humor.



                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                    Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.