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More Shonomen Yuri

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  • Jared Plotkin
    First of all, it has come to my attention that somebody said that the general populace thinks that feminine males are sexy. I wouldn t know (I am not attracted
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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      First of all, it has come to my attention that somebody said that the general populace thinks that feminine males are sexy.
      I wouldn't know (I am not attracted to guys) but i serioulsly doubt it. Sure, feminine guys from boy bands and stuff might get attention, but mostly from 13 year old girls who are afriad of sex. Guys that appeal to older girls often try to be as manly as possilbe. So i dont think this is true.

      Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing something he will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken from other stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.

      So in other words, when a guy writes Yuri or a girl writes it, gay or straight it really isn't that different because everbody is copying the real gay girls in the first place. I challenge ANYONE to be able to deciper gender soley on a story. It cant be done. Guys and girls dont write it that different.

      In responce to people saying certain stories have sex and only sex, yes that is true. But i know many lesbians who write like that, and many straight guys who dont. So you cant use that to judge.

      And this is the INTERNET for crying out loud. I bet 1/3 of the people you talk to lie about their gender, anyway!

      Lastly, i dont "prefer" stories written by guys or girls. If you can write good, then i like it. Simple as that.

      -Morgan

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    • Erica Friedman
      ... Gotta totally disagre on this. Guys, like Tom Jones, or Elvis say - a guy who appeals to older women as well as younger, tries to do two things - radiate
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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        >From: "Jared Plotkin" <cow10001@...>
        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [Yuricon] More Shonomen Yuri
        >Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 12:40:54 -0500
        >
        >
        >Guys that appeal to older girls often try to be as manly as possilbe.

        Gotta totally disagre on this. Guys, like Tom Jones, or Elvis say - a guy
        who appeals to older women as well as younger, tries to do two things -
        radiate open, unabashed sexuality and to be "sensitive."

        It's the "sensitive" bit that women want - and it's a feminine concept. Guys
        for guys don't have that. Bruce Willis, say, in Die Hard. It's all about
        tough.


        >Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing something he will
        >NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken from other
        >stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.

        Gotta disagree again. Most "lesbian" sex a straight man watches is
        performed, for money, to titillate the straight man. It's bears little
        resemblance to actual sex between women, except superficially.

        >
        >So in other words, when a guy writes Yuri or a girl writes it, gay or
        >straight it really isn't that different because everbody is copying the
        >real gay girls in the first place. I challenge ANYONE to be able to deciper
        >gender soley on a story. It cant be done. Guys and girls dont write it that
        >different.

        Oh, yes they do. It's more about the story around the sex, but I bet I can
        tell gender 9 times out of ten, regardless of the genre. Women in general
        write differently, period. They focus on different things than guys do.

        >
        >In responce to people saying certain stories have sex and only sex, yes
        >that is true. But i know many lesbians who write like that, and many
        >straight guys who dont. So you cant use that to judge.

        You can if you judge not by the sex (although frankly, that's usually a dead
        giveaway, but by the language surrounding the sex...and the context for that
        sex...or lack thereof.

        >
        >And this is the INTERNET for crying out loud. I bet 1/3 of the people you
        >talk to lie about their gender, anyway!

        But age/experience/maturity/use of language can't lie. I don't care if you
        *say* you're a 35 year old male...your language and worldview will almost
        alwasy give away whther you actually are, or not.
        >
        >Lastly, i dont "prefer" stories written by guys or girls. If you can write
        >good, then i like it. Simple as that.

        I agree with that. But my level of "good" is more like Yan Martel, Banana
        Yoshimoto, Umberto Eco...most fanfic falls so short of that that I find
        little to none to be "good."



        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
        http://www.yuricon.org


        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

        Because fanfic does not have to suck


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      • Eleanor Stevens
        ... I have to concur with Erica on this one. It s true how you write and the way you write it pretty much gives you a full bio on who you are. People can tell
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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          --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > You can if you judge not by the sex (although
          > frankly, that's usually a dead
          > giveaway, but by the language surrounding the
          > sex...and the context for that
          > sex...or lack thereof.
          > But age/experience/maturity/use of language can't
          > lie. I don't care if you
          > *say* you're a 35 year old male...your language and
          > worldview will almost
          > alwasy give away whther you actually are, or not.

          I have to concur with Erica on this one. It's true how
          you write and the way you write it pretty much gives
          you a full bio on who you are. People can tell from
          reading my stuff that I like comedy. A lot of comedy.

          On the other hand, you can tell many about Erica's
          views on life and love in general by how she writes.
          Much different from something I would write which
          would be filled with fluff and lust. Lots of lust.

          > I agree with that. However, my level of "good" is
          more
          > like Yan Martel, Banana
          > Yoshimoto, Umberto Eco...most fanfic falls so short
          > of that that I find
          > little to none to be "good."

          Well it is a 50/50-chance think. I do not think of fan
          fictions as great literary works. I love em cause they
          are a fan interpretation and fun to read. Therefore, I
          am not putting them on par with professionals like
          Andre Norton and Charles De lint. So I would not kick
          back and read "Purgatory"~ By Krys Bear and compare it
          to Faust. Or even compare it to something Naoko
          herself would spit out. Fanfic's to me are fun reads
          like comic's etc. So yeah in that respect fanfics
          aren't all that hot as a general rule but eggh like I
          said they aren't the next great American novel their
          fun things fan's do. In addition, I likes em like that.

          =====
          ~Tita

          "It's Showtime!"-Tita (Plastic Little the Adventures of Captain Tita)

          http://www.mindmeld.iwarp.com

          __________________________________________________
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        • Hypatia Kosh <athena_sappho@yahoo.com>
          ... will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken from other stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jared Plotkin" <cow10001@m...> wrote:
            > Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing something he
            will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of his ideas were taken
            from other stoies or porn, written or preformed by, yes you guessed
            it, lesbians.

            Maybe so (a lot of women in the sex industry *are* lesbians) but
            there's a world of difference between "lesbian" porn intended for
            straight male consumption and lesbian by/for lesbian porn.

            > So in other words, when a guy writes Yuri or a girl writes it, gay
            or straight it really isn't that different because everbody is copying
            the real gay girls in the first place. I challenge ANYONE to be able
            to deciper gender soley on a story. It cant be done. Guys and girls
            dont write it that different.

            I disagree. In slash fandom there are a few men who have immersed
            themselves in the lesbian subculture and can write convincingly from a
            gay or bi girl's POV. Most men, however, do not bother.

            It's common, at least in the yuri I've read, not to really address the
            homosexual issue and just say "love is love and sex is sex." I don't
            necessarily have a problem with this. However, I can often tell a male
            writer by the emotional falseness (and often rather ridiculous sex
            scenes).

            > In responce to people saying certain stories have sex and only sex,
            yes that is true. But i know many lesbians who write like that, and
            many straight guys who dont. So you cant use that to judge.
            >

            Sure, we women (er, "we"--well, I'm a bio woman so I'm including
            myself for the moment) do write stories that are just sex, or
            anonymous sex, or whatever.

            The difference between men's and women's writing is more subtle. For
            example, I read a story by a guy where this woman went on a bit of a
            sexual adventure and had sex with about 3 different women. The jarring
            moments came at the end of the story. Not only were the women's
            reactions to their "new found sexuality" just *strange* but the
            protagonist seemed to experience no emotional difference in having sex
            with her close friend, versus total strangers. Huh? And I repeat:
            huh??? I don't think so!

            > And this is the INTERNET for crying out loud. I bet 1/3 of the
            people you talk to lie about their gender, anyway!

            Of course they do. Doesn't mean there aren't women who write really
            ridiculous m/m and men who write really ridiculous f/f.

            > Lastly, i dont "prefer" stories written by guys or girls. If you can
            write good, then i like it. Simple as that.

            Good writing transcends the identity and gender of the writer. The
            best fiction will not scream "straight woman wrote this!" or "jerky
            guy wrote this!"

            -Hypatia
          • Eltink, Royi
            ... ...Suddenly there comes this 14-year old yaoi fangal to mind who asks me if I would check the fanfic she wrote... 0_0 Ro
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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              > First of all, it has come to my attention that somebody said
              > that the general populace thinks that feminine males are sexy.
              > I wouldn't know (I am not attracted to guys) but i serioulsly
              > doubt it. Sure, feminine guys from boy bands and stuff might
              > get attention, but mostly from 13 year old girls who are
              > afriad of sex. Guys that appeal to older girls often try to
              > be as manly as possilbe. So i dont think this is true.
              >
              > Secondly, when a male writes Yuri sex, he is writing
              > something he will NEVER experience. So in other words, all of
              > his ideas were taken from other stoies or porn, written or
              > preformed by, yes you guessed it, lesbians.

              ...Suddenly there comes this 14-year old yaoi fangal to mind who asks me if I would 'check' the fanfic she wrote... 0_0


              Ro'
            • Hypatia Kosh <athena_sappho@yahoo.com>
              ... I can ... general ... usually a dead ... for that ... if you ... almost ... If I may add to this, I think fiction is inherently self-revelatory, whether
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" wrote:
                > Oh, yes they do. It's more about the story around the sex, but I bet
                I can
                > tell gender 9 times out of ten, regardless of the genre. Women in
                general
                > write differently, period. They focus on different things than guys do.
                >

                > You can if you judge not by the sex (although frankly, that's
                usually a dead
                > giveaway, but by the language surrounding the sex...and the context
                for that
                > sex...or lack thereof.
                >

                > But age/experience/maturity/use of language can't lie. I don't care
                if you
                > *say* you're a 35 year old male...your language and worldview will
                almost
                > alwasy give away whther you actually are, or not.

                If I may add to this, I think fiction is inherently self-revelatory,
                whether the author realizes this or not.

                You are absolutely correct about the kind of language used. I much
                prefer it when the writer is able to affect a more "androgynous"
                writing style, rather than choking me with flowery euphemisms or
                attacking me with boot-to-the-head exposition.

                I'm not very good at judging the age of writers (being young myself!)
                but I can tell a kid a mile away. Hey--I was there not too long ago!
                Kids always think they're passing for older too--it's so funny.

                -Hypatia

                --
                http://hypatia.slashcity.org/

                "It's always nice to have an even mix of
                hot gay sex and actual information."

                --Captain Pedantic 12-14-01
              • Erica Friedman
                ... Can you indeed? LOL I bet not. I write fiction. 100% so. And my particular millieu is Voice - my characters rarely, if ever, sound like me...or think
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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                  >From: Eleanor Stevens <captaintita@...>

                  >On the other hand, you can tell many about Erica's
                  >views on life and love in general by how she writes.

                  Can you indeed? LOL I bet not. I write fiction. 100% so. And my particular
                  millieu is "Voice" - my characters rarely, if ever, sound like me...or think
                  like me.

                  You'd be hard pressed to determine the things that are important to me frm
                  my fiction. With one exception - lesbian sex. Clearly a priority of mine.
                  LOL




                  Cheers,

                  Erica

                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                  http://www.yuricon.org


                  "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                  The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                  Because fanfic does not have to suck




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                • Sean Gaffney
                  ... I once got into a discussion with Nick Leifker, another fic writer, regarding how much of oneself needs to be put in a story. Nick invests almost
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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                    > Can you indeed? LOL I bet not. I write fiction. 100% so. And my particular
                    > millieu is "Voice" - my characters rarely, if ever, sound like me...or think
                    > like me.
                    >
                    > You'd be hard pressed to determine the things that are important to me frm
                    > my fiction. With one exception - lesbian sex. Clearly a priority of mine.
                    > LOL

                    I once got into a discussion with Nick Leifker, another fic writer,
                    regarding how much of oneself needs to be put in a story. Nick
                    invests almost everything he is into every story - they're almost
                    emotional experiences writing them. Whereas I am very removed from
                    anything I write, and despite the large amounts of angst and tears in
                    my fics, am always thinking things like "what if I had him step into
                    the remains of her head accidentally?" and things like that.

                    Certainly, looking over the body of work I've written, if people
                    thought they were my views I'm amazed they don't put a bullet in my
                    head. ^^;;

                    Regarding gender issues and yuri, what do people think about the
                    preponderance of nicknames/psuedonyms? I've always written my fics
                    as Sean Gaffney, so really haven't experienced anyone mistaking me
                    for a woman. (looks at his f/f porn) Not that anyone would anyway.
                    ^^;; But is it different for, say, someone who writes as
                    Nekochickie, or Integral's Womb, or something like that?

                    --SG
                  • Shannon Stricof
                    Hehe, I thought you were a woman for a long time till I stopped seeing an a at the end of Johann. Whoops, -Shannon Ami Johann Chua
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 2, 2003
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                      Hehe, I thought you were a woman for a long time till I stopped seeing an "a" at the end of Johann. Whoops,

                      -Shannon Ami 

                       Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:

                      I get mistaken for female when I'm using my real name, so I guess a
                      _deliberately_ feminine-sounding nickname is likely to make people think
                      the author is female.

                      Used to use Fuuma Monou as my e-mail nickname but I always used my real
                      name in the signature.  I use Fuuma on ff.net, where I was accused of being
                      a "lesbien" over my St. Tail yuri lemon.
                      --
                      Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                      "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                      tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz

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                    • what is a dooky <spookydooky@hotmail.com>
                      ... I ve been mistaken for a woman... I think the chan thing does it. I included it initially as a diminutive (yeah, I know it s ungrammatical to use a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
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                        > Regarding gender issues and yuri, what do people think about the
                        > preponderance of nicknames/psuedonyms? I've always written my fics
                        > as Sean Gaffney, so really haven't experienced anyone mistaking me
                        > for a woman. (looks at his f/f porn) Not that anyone would anyway.
                        > ^^;; But is it different for, say, someone who writes as
                        > Nekochickie, or Integral's Womb, or something like that?

                        I've been mistaken for a woman... I think the 'chan' thing does it. I
                        included it initially as a diminutive (yeah, I know it's ungrammatical
                        to use a suffix in your own name ^_^) I'm starting to drop it now,
                        though. One of my fics was reviewed recently, and both of the
                        reviewers thought I was female. One of them has known me online for
                        three years! They were full of apologies after I told them I was male,
                        but I took the whole thing as a compliment. After all, I write mostly
                        female characters, and a significant number of shoujo-ai
                        relationships, so if somebody can still think I'm female after reading
                        my stuff then I must be doing something right. Erica's correct- you
                        can usually tell the gender of the writer (at least in fanfiction
                        ^_^), and this is something I've worked hard to overcome. Not that
                        there's anything wrong with being, or even sounding male, it's just
                        that I'd much rather have a neutral voice. I make no secret of my
                        gender, but I just don't want it to be a huge determining factor on my
                        work.

                        As per the alias thing... as you can probably guess, dooky is not my
                        real name ^_^ I suppose I use an alias because in my everyday life,
                        I'm not a writer or artist. I'm a scientist, and these interests are
                        pretty separate by definition. George Hutcheon is the scientist, and
                        dooky is the writer/artist. This may well be indicative of some major
                        psychological condition, but it works for me ^_~

                        dooky
                      • Johann Chua
                        ... I get mistaken for female when I m using my real name, so I guess a _deliberately_ feminine-sounding nickname is likely to make people think the author is
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
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                          At 07:02 PM 02/02/2003 -0500, Sean Gaffney wrote:
                          >Regarding gender issues and yuri, what do people think about the
                          >preponderance of nicknames/psuedonyms? I've always written my fics
                          >as Sean Gaffney, so really haven't experienced anyone mistaking me
                          >for a woman. (looks at his f/f porn) Not that anyone would anyway.
                          >^^;; But is it different for, say, someone who writes as
                          >Nekochickie, or Integral's Womb, or something like that?

                          I get mistaken for female when I'm using my real name, so I guess a
                          _deliberately_ feminine-sounding nickname is likely to make people think
                          the author is female.

                          Used to use Fuuma Monou as my e-mail nickname but I always used my real
                          name in the signature. I use Fuuma on ff.net, where I was accused of being
                          a "lesbien" over my St. Tail yuri lemon.
                          --
                          Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                          "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                          tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                        • Johann Chua
                          ... Probably helps that I mostly keep my ecchiness offline. ^_^ My name without an H would be JoAnn. Hmm. Though if I really wanted to stop the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
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                            At 08:20 PM 02/02/2003 -0800, Shannon Stricof wrote:
                            > Hehe, I thought you were a woman for a long time till I stopped seeing
                            >an "a" at the end of Johann. Whoops,

                            Probably "helps" that I mostly keep my ecchiness offline. ^_^ My name
                            without an H would be JoAnn. Hmm. Though if I really wanted to stop the
                            gender-confusion, I'd be using my second name, Conrad, as well, but that
                            would take up too much header space.

                            There was a Johanna Chua (no relation) in my sister's graduating class in
                            high school.

                            At least one person reads my name as Joanne.
                            --
                            Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                            "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                            tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                          • Trixterpriest@aol.com
                            ... And I have to say, a damn good one ;p Kun ... *does a little lesbian sex dance*
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
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                              > You'd be hard pressed to determine the things that are important to me frm
                              > my fiction. With one exception - lesbian sex. Clearly a
                              > priority of mine.

                              And I have to say, a damn good one ;p

                              Kun
                              ----'-,-{@

                              *does a little lesbian sex dance*
                            • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
                              ... name ... stop the ... that ... You could go by J. Conrad Chua. C. Richard Davies.
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
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                                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Johann Chua <cjchua@m...> wrote:

                                > Probably "helps" that I mostly keep my ecchiness offline. ^_^ My
                                name
                                > without an H would be JoAnn. Hmm. Though if I really wanted to
                                stop the
                                > gender-confusion, I'd be using my second name, Conrad, as well, but
                                that
                                > would take up too much header space.

                                You could go by J. Conrad Chua.

                                C. Richard Davies.
                              • Eleanor Stevens
                                ... *Sweatdrops* Sorry Johann my mother is errr she s my Mom -.-** there s no other way to describe her. The ironic thing is the guy we got the money order
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 3, 2003
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                                  --- Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:

                                  > At least one person reads my name as Joanne.
                                  > --

                                  *Sweatdrops* Sorry Johann my mother is errr she's my
                                  Mom -.-** there's no other way to describe her. The
                                  ironic thing is the guy we got the money order from is
                                  named Johann too. I was verrrrrrry disappointed in her.

                                  =====
                                  ~Tita

                                  "It's Showtime!"-Tita (Plastic Little the Adventures of Captain Tita)

                                  http://www.mindmeld.iwarp.com

                                  __________________________________________________
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                                • Johann Chua
                                  ... The universe does have a sense of humor. Joanne was on the Shoujo ML; your mom wrote Joann on the money order. -- Johann Chua -- HP:
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 4, 2003
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                                    At 06:26 PM 02/03/2003 -0800, Eleanor Stevens wrote:
                                    >
                                    >--- Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> At least one person reads my name as Joanne.
                                    >> --
                                    >
                                    >*Sweatdrops* Sorry Johann my mother is errr she's my
                                    >Mom -.-** there's no other way to describe her. The
                                    >ironic thing is the guy we got the money order from is
                                    >named Johann too. I was verrrrrrry disappointed in her.

                                    The universe does have a sense of humor.

                                    "Joanne" was on the Shoujo ML; your mom wrote "Joann" on the money order.
                                    --
                                    Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                                    "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                                    tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                                  • Shannon Stricof
                                    Remember even God has a sense of humor, look at the platypus (The Dogma opening credits). -Shannon Ami, just cuz I felt the need to add in my 2 bits Johann
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 4, 2003
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                                      "Remember even God has a sense of humor, look at the platypus" (The Dogma opening credits).

                                      -Shannon Ami, just cuz I felt the need to add in my 2 bits

                                       Johann Chua <cjchua@...> wrote:



                                      The universe does have a sense of humor.



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