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Re: [Yuricon] Re: [YCML] More shounen (sexist?) yuri

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  • Erica Friedman
    ... I completely agree - Pattie and I were discussing this last night. In much yuri two (or more) women meet, and have sex. There s no context, no getting to
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
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      >From: "cricharddavies <cricharddavies@...>"
      >
      >And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is
      >the "masculinization" of female/female relationships, or even of
      >female behaviour -- I recall one lesbian mystery I read where the
      >detective got rather irritated that everyone expected her to be
      >thinking with her ... well, anyway.

      I completely agree - Pattie and I were discussing this last night. In much
      yuri two (or more) women meet, and have sex. There's no context, no getting
      to know one another, no anything except sex.

      A gay male friend of mine said that that was basically how he met new
      boyfriends. He'd see someone he found attractive, have sex with them, and
      if, afterwards, he liked the guy, they'd start dating.

      So in that respect, yuri is a "masculine" approach to lesbian relationships.




      Cheers,

      Erica

      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
      http://www.yuricon.org


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    • Alex Picchetti
      ... Does it happen in all yaoi? Or just doujinshi? I don t know a heck of a lot about what sort of idioms (? I think that s the word I want) would be
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
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        >> >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are
        completely
        >> >> emasculated, and use language normally
        associated with young women.
        >> >
        >> >Given who is
        usually writing said tales, is that last really
        >> >surprising?
        >>
        >>Well, unless they've never been exposed
        to how guys talk that's no excuse.
        >>It seems like a deliberate style
        choice.
        >
        >Agreed.
         
        Does it happen in all yaoi? Or just doujinshi? I don't know a heck of a lot about what sort of idioms (? I think that's the word I want) would be considered "feminine" in Japan, besides the various ways of saying I/me, so I can't recognize these things...
         
        Then again, there was a study done (here) that suggested that super-feminine women are really sexy - but feminine men are sexier than more macho men, to the general populace. *shrug* So maybe they're just playing off that.

        >>Is it that much of a problem with
        >>(presumably)
        straight male characters written by the same authors?
        >
        >I can't
        asnwer this, since I'm not that aware of authors in the yaoi market,
        >and
        if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can say is
        >that if you lok at the near non-verbal qality of most male shoujo love
        >interests, we're talking about a view of men that isn't that
        flattering...
        >
        >Male love interest in shoujo romances spend volumes
        trying to get a single
        >sententnce or even the vaguest expression of like
        or interest or attraction
        >out of their mouths - and usually fail until
        some crisis forces it out of
        >them.
        *thinks* You know, that's really true ^^; Specifically right now I'm thinking of Mamoru from BSSM and Takeo from MTT!, because they're the only shoujo series with romance that I can think of o.x (I don't read plain romances, usually). Perhaps this is why shoujo romance series take hundreds of episodes to complete? :P ^^;
         
        Then again, depending on the age of the people involved, it may not be that off-base, for guys OR girls.

        >True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a
        male
        >friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One
        day he
        >says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we
        dating?
        >
        >She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo
        manga fan, he really
        >thought it worked like that - you like someone, you
        don't have to court
        >them, because they  also like you, obviously,
        and then you get married. She
        >blamed manga and the fact that he didn't
        have any sisters. LOL
        *lol* That's pretty funny, though I do find it doubtful that reading shoujo manga would have such a heavy impact. Maybe not... but I still don't think it's likely. (Where are the psychiatrists doing studies on these things? I'm moving to Japan when I graduate ;)

        >So maybe the feminization of a yaoi couple is to counter the
        perceived lack
        >of introspection and communication of straight
        males.
        Turning them instead into wibbling balls of goo! :D

        Though, as with anything, it's a case-by-case thing. I don't recall Zetsuai being particularly wibbly, feminine, or even openly communicative between Kouji and Izumi. *shrug* Maybe it's the only one? ^^;
         
        -Alex
      • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
        ... They may have been exposed, but it may have been noise instead of signal. If you re deliberately trying not to listen, it doesn t matter if you hear. ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Johann Chua <cjchua@m...> wrote:
          > >
          > >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
          > >surprising?
          >
          > Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no
          > excuse.

          They may have been exposed, but it may have been noise instead of
          signal. If you're deliberately trying not to listen, it doesn't
          matter if you hear.

          > It seems like a deliberate style choice. Is it that much of a
          problem with
          > (presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?

          <considers the now-thankfully dead "sekkushiaru roman" subgenre of
          Sailor Moon fanfic> Yes.

          Chris Davies.
        • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
          ... male ... day he ... dating? ... he really ... court ... married. She ... Really? Know a lot of people who take their cues on how to act tough from
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Picchetti" <nuriseiya@r...>
            wrote:
            > >True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a
            male
            > >friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One
            day he
            > >says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we
            dating?
            > >
            > >She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo manga fan,
            he really
            > >thought it worked like that - you like someone, you don't have to
            court
            > >them, because they also like you, obviously, and then you get
            married. She
            > >blamed manga and the fact that he didn't have any sisters. LOL
            >
            > *lol* That's pretty funny, though I do find it doubtful that
            > reading shoujo manga would have such a heavy impact.

            Really? Know a lot of people who take their cues on how to act tough
            from pro-wrestling and action movies? Know anyone who seems to sample
            his or her bon mots from sitcoms? Know anyone who pauses for the
            laugh track?

            We all know people who have a soundtrack, but that's more of a "those
            darned portable music machines" problem. :)

            Chris Davies.
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