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Re: [YCML] More shounen (sexist?) yuri

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  • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
    ... Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really surprising? And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is the masculinization
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 31, 2003
      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
      wrote:

      > The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
      > emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women.

      Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
      surprising?

      And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is
      the "masculinization" of female/female relationships, or even of
      female behaviour -- I recall one lesbian mystery I read where the
      detective got rather irritated that everyone expected her to be
      thinking with her ... well, anyway.

      Chris Davies.
    • Erica Friedman
      ... Agreed. ... I can t asnwer this, since I m not that aware of authors in the yaoi market, and if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
        >From: Johann Chua <cjchua@...>

        > >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
        > >> emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women.
        > >
        > >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
        > >surprising?
        >
        >Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no excuse.
        >It seems like a deliberate style choice.


        Agreed.

        >Is it that much of a problem with
        >(presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?

        I can't asnwer this, since I'm not that aware of authors in the yaoi market,
        and if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can say is
        that if you lok at the near non-verbal qality of most male shoujo love
        interests, we're talking about a view of men that isn't that flattering...

        Male love interest in shoujo romances spend volumes trying to get a single
        sententnce or even the vaguest expression of like or interest or attraction
        out of their mouths - and usually fail until some crisis forces it out of
        them.

        True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a male
        friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One day he
        says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we dating?

        She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo manga fan, he really
        thought it worked like that - you like someone, you don't have to court
        them, because they also like you, obviously, and then you get married. She
        blamed manga and the fact that he didn't have any sisters. LOL

        So maybe the feminization of a yaoi couple is to counter the perceived lack
        of introspection and communication of straight males.

        But as Sato-san said, "that's in my imgaination" and I can't verify it.


        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
        http://www.yuricon.org


        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

        Because fanfic does not have to suck



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      • Erica Friedman
        ... I completely agree - Pattie and I were discussing this last night. In much yuri two (or more) women meet, and have sex. There s no context, no getting to
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
          >From: "cricharddavies <cricharddavies@...>"
          >
          >And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is
          >the "masculinization" of female/female relationships, or even of
          >female behaviour -- I recall one lesbian mystery I read where the
          >detective got rather irritated that everyone expected her to be
          >thinking with her ... well, anyway.

          I completely agree - Pattie and I were discussing this last night. In much
          yuri two (or more) women meet, and have sex. There's no context, no getting
          to know one another, no anything except sex.

          A gay male friend of mine said that that was basically how he met new
          boyfriends. He'd see someone he found attractive, have sex with them, and
          if, afterwards, he liked the guy, they'd start dating.

          So in that respect, yuri is a "masculine" approach to lesbian relationships.




          Cheers,

          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org


          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
          The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

          Because fanfic does not have to suck


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        • Johann Chua
          At 11:52 PM 01/31/2003 -0000, cricharddavies ... Well, unless they ve never been exposed to how guys talk that s no excuse. It seems
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
            At 11:52 PM 01/31/2003 -0000, cricharddavies <cricharddavies@...>
            wrote:
            >--- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
            >wrote:
            >
            >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
            >> emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women.
            >
            >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
            >surprising?

            Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no excuse.
            It seems like a deliberate style choice. Is it that much of a problem with
            (presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?
            --
            Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
            "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
            tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
          • Alex Picchetti
            ... Does it happen in all yaoi? Or just doujinshi? I don t know a heck of a lot about what sort of idioms (? I think that s the word I want) would be
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
              >> >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are
              completely
              >> >> emasculated, and use language normally
              associated with young women.
              >> >
              >> >Given who is
              usually writing said tales, is that last really
              >> >surprising?
              >>
              >>Well, unless they've never been exposed
              to how guys talk that's no excuse.
              >>It seems like a deliberate style
              choice.
              >
              >Agreed.
               
              Does it happen in all yaoi? Or just doujinshi? I don't know a heck of a lot about what sort of idioms (? I think that's the word I want) would be considered "feminine" in Japan, besides the various ways of saying I/me, so I can't recognize these things...
               
              Then again, there was a study done (here) that suggested that super-feminine women are really sexy - but feminine men are sexier than more macho men, to the general populace. *shrug* So maybe they're just playing off that.

              >>Is it that much of a problem with
              >>(presumably)
              straight male characters written by the same authors?
              >
              >I can't
              asnwer this, since I'm not that aware of authors in the yaoi market,
              >and
              if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can say is
              >that if you lok at the near non-verbal qality of most male shoujo love
              >interests, we're talking about a view of men that isn't that
              flattering...
              >
              >Male love interest in shoujo romances spend volumes
              trying to get a single
              >sententnce or even the vaguest expression of like
              or interest or attraction
              >out of their mouths - and usually fail until
              some crisis forces it out of
              >them.
              *thinks* You know, that's really true ^^; Specifically right now I'm thinking of Mamoru from BSSM and Takeo from MTT!, because they're the only shoujo series with romance that I can think of o.x (I don't read plain romances, usually). Perhaps this is why shoujo romance series take hundreds of episodes to complete? :P ^^;
               
              Then again, depending on the age of the people involved, it may not be that off-base, for guys OR girls.

              >True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a
              male
              >friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One
              day he
              >says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we
              dating?
              >
              >She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo
              manga fan, he really
              >thought it worked like that - you like someone, you
              don't have to court
              >them, because they  also like you, obviously,
              and then you get married. She
              >blamed manga and the fact that he didn't
              have any sisters. LOL
              *lol* That's pretty funny, though I do find it doubtful that reading shoujo manga would have such a heavy impact. Maybe not... but I still don't think it's likely. (Where are the psychiatrists doing studies on these things? I'm moving to Japan when I graduate ;)

              >So maybe the feminization of a yaoi couple is to counter the
              perceived lack
              >of introspection and communication of straight
              males.
              Turning them instead into wibbling balls of goo! :D

              Though, as with anything, it's a case-by-case thing. I don't recall Zetsuai being particularly wibbly, feminine, or even openly communicative between Kouji and Izumi. *shrug* Maybe it's the only one? ^^;
               
              -Alex
            • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
              ... They may have been exposed, but it may have been noise instead of signal. If you re deliberately trying not to listen, it doesn t matter if you hear. ...
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Johann Chua <cjchua@m...> wrote:
                > >
                > >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
                > >surprising?
                >
                > Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no
                > excuse.

                They may have been exposed, but it may have been noise instead of
                signal. If you're deliberately trying not to listen, it doesn't
                matter if you hear.

                > It seems like a deliberate style choice. Is it that much of a
                problem with
                > (presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?

                <considers the now-thankfully dead "sekkushiaru roman" subgenre of
                Sailor Moon fanfic> Yes.

                Chris Davies.
              • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
                ... male ... day he ... dating? ... he really ... court ... married. She ... Really? Know a lot of people who take their cues on how to act tough from
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Picchetti" <nuriseiya@r...>
                  wrote:
                  > >True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a
                  male
                  > >friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One
                  day he
                  > >says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we
                  dating?
                  > >
                  > >She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo manga fan,
                  he really
                  > >thought it worked like that - you like someone, you don't have to
                  court
                  > >them, because they also like you, obviously, and then you get
                  married. She
                  > >blamed manga and the fact that he didn't have any sisters. LOL
                  >
                  > *lol* That's pretty funny, though I do find it doubtful that
                  > reading shoujo manga would have such a heavy impact.

                  Really? Know a lot of people who take their cues on how to act tough
                  from pro-wrestling and action movies? Know anyone who seems to sample
                  his or her bon mots from sitcoms? Know anyone who pauses for the
                  laugh track?

                  We all know people who have a soundtrack, but that's more of a "those
                  darned portable music machines" problem. :)

                  Chris Davies.
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