Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[YCML] More shounen (sexist?) yuri

Expand Messages
  • Erica Friedman
    Sean asked for sexist yuri, but you know, that s kind of not fair, as it were, since most yuri, by it s nature is sexist. After all, yuri as a category was
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 29, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Sean asked for "sexist" yuri, but you know, that's kind of not fair, as it
      were, since most yuri, by it's nature is sexist. After all, yuri as a
      category was originally by guys for guys. (Now it's basically anything that
      pairs women, period.) Kishiji Bando, doyenne of the Yuri mailing List
      separates yuri into shoujo yuri - yuri by women for women and shounen yuri -
      by guys for guys.

      Since in Japan its the audience that determines the label, not the conten,
      that's a pretty fair way to do it, I think.

      So, to answer Sean's question some more - here's a few more of my favorite
      shounen or otona (adult) yuri manga:

      Onegai Suzune-chan - This one still wins as THE sweetest out and out porn
      yuri I own. It's sex, sex and more sex, but Karen genuinely love
      Suzune-chan, and the feeling is returned. I love this manga.

      Angel Heart - This is a magical girl rip-off yuri with half women and half
      newhalf women (dickshicks) and they all have lots of sex. I have no idea why
      it was even published, but for some reason I like it. Beats me why.

      Battle Binder Plus - For those of us who felt that BGC Tokyo 2040 made too
      much sense and too little lesbian sex, we bring you battle Binder Plus. Our
      heroine, Rula 013 is a lesbian android...I think. She certainly has a
      hardsuit-type thing, has sex with women (usually right before they mutate
      and she kills them) and there's lots of inexplicable violence.

      So, there are three more, for those of you who like a cheap thrill. :-)


      Cheers,

      Erica

      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
      http://www.yuricon.org


      "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
      The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

      Because fanfic does not have to suck




      _________________________________________________________________
      Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
      http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
    • Trixterpriest@aol.com
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 29, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        << Battle Binder Plus - For those of us who felt that BGC Tokyo 2040 made too
        much sense and too little lesbian sex, we bring you battle Binder Plus. Our
        heroine, Rula 013 is a lesbian android...I think. She certainly has a
        hardsuit-type thing, has sex with women (usually right before they mutate
        and she kills them) and there's lots of inexplicable violence. >>

        Now why haven't you told me about this one before ;p I'm just now making my
        way through Tokyo 2040 and I think that exact same thing =^.^=

        Kun
        ----'-,-{@
        *does a little lesbian sex dance*
      • Sean Gaffney
        ... Actually, many of my favorite yuris are by men. The for guys thing, and what I call sexist yuri, is the idea that the girls are all deeply and
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 30, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          > Sean asked for "sexist" yuri, but you know, that's kind of not fair, as it
          > were, since most yuri, by it's nature is sexist. After all, yuri as a
          > category was originally by guys for guys. (Now it's basically anything that
          > pairs women, period.) Kishiji Bando, doyenne of the Yuri mailing List
          > separates yuri into shoujo yuri - yuri by women for women and shounen yuri -
          > by guys for guys.

          Actually, many of my favorite yuris are by men. The "for guys"
          thing, and what I call sexist yuri, is the idea that the girls are
          all deeply and passionately screwing around until they find their
          man, whereupon they turn instantly straight. :-D

          > Angel Heart - This is a magical girl rip-off yuri with half women and half
          > newhalf women (dickshicks) and they all have lots of sex. I have no idea why
          > it was even published, but for some reason I like it. Beats me why.

          ........<aggidaaggidaaggida> I would like to add for my sanity that
          this Angel Heart has nothing to do with Tsukasa Hojo's Angel Heart,
          the semi-sequel to City Hunter. (Hardcore City Hunter romantics deny
          it's a true sequel, for obvious reasons... ^^;;)

          --SG
        • Erica Friedman
          ... The feminization of male/male relationships. They are completely emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women. Drives me nuts. ...
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 30, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            >From: Johann Chua <cjchua@...>

            >Doesn't seem to be a problem for yaoi, what with the idealization of
            >male/male relationships.
            >

            The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
            emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women. Drives
            me nuts.


            >Don't they usually avoid using a title that's already taken?

            I think the audiences were SO different that there weasn't an issue. Angel
            Heart the hardcore newhalf yuri porn probably didn't have that many copies
            made at all. Angel heart the City Hunter sequel is already extremely popular
            and appeals to a different audience entirely. :-)



            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org


            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
            The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

            Because fanfic does not have to suck




            _________________________________________________________________
            STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
            http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
          • Eltink, Royi
            ... Really? wich one are you watching then? allright, it is indeed like that in anime such as LevelC or Gravitation. But Four Horsemen or Boku Wa Sexual
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 30, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              > >Doesn't seem to be a problem for yaoi, what with the idealization of
              > >male/male relationships.
              > >
              >
              > The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
              > emasculated, and use language normally associated with young
              > women. Drives
              > me nuts.

              Really? wich one are you watching then? allright, it is indeed like that in anime such as LevelC or Gravitation. But Four Horsemen or Boku Wa Sexual Harassment are really different from that image.
              But I guess that differs from those who like macho and those who like feminine. I guess it is almost the same with yuri (the tomboyish vs the girly).


              Ro'
            • Johann Chua
              ... What I call the patriarchal heterosexist plot. Doesn t seem to be a problem for yaoi, what with the idealization of male/male relationships. ... half ...
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 30, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                At 06:07 AM 01/30/2003 -0500, Sean Gaffney wrote:
                >Actually, many of my favorite yuris are by men. The "for guys"
                >thing, and what I call sexist yuri, is the idea that the girls are
                >all deeply and passionately screwing around until they find their
                >man, whereupon they turn instantly straight. :-D

                What I call the patriarchal heterosexist plot.

                Doesn't seem to be a problem for yaoi, what with the idealization of
                male/male relationships.

                >> Angel Heart - This is a magical girl rip-off yuri with half women and
                half
                >> newhalf women (dickshicks) and they all have lots of sex. I have no idea
                why
                >> it was even published, but for some reason I like it. Beats me why.
                >
                >........<aggidaaggidaaggida> I would like to add for my sanity that
                >this Angel Heart has nothing to do with Tsukasa Hojo's Angel Heart,
                >the semi-sequel to City Hunter. (Hardcore City Hunter romantics deny
                >it's a true sequel, for obvious reasons... ^^;;)

                Don't they usually avoid using a title that's already taken? I guess the
                titles are very similar, but not exactly the same when written in Japanese.
                Choosing a title was one of the gags used in EVEN A MONKEY CAN DRAW MANGA.
                --
                Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
              • shenotski <duomaxwell@fanboy.org>
                I wish that people would actully write somewhat realistic relationships. I know it s fiction but thats something that needs to be done alot better. As for the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 30, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  I wish that people would actully write somewhat realistic
                  relationships. I know it's fiction but thats something that needs to
                  be done alot better. As for the way Females do Yaoi Ive actully had
                  a guy kiss me a few hours after meeting him, I'm not gay but it still
                  happened, it's kind of hard to tell somone that's trying to make out
                  with you that your not interested. It might have helped that the guy
                  had been drinking. Cause no one in there right mind set does anything
                  like what i see in most fiction.

                  > > The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are
                  completely
                  > > emasculated, and use language normally associated with young
                  > > women. Drives
                  > > me nuts.
                  > But I guess that differs from those who like macho and those who
                  like feminine. I guess it is almost the same with yuri (the tomboyish
                  vs the girly).
                  >
                  >
                  > Ro'
                • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
                  ... Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really surprising? And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is the masculinization
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 31, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                    wrote:

                    > The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
                    > emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women.

                    Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
                    surprising?

                    And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is
                    the "masculinization" of female/female relationships, or even of
                    female behaviour -- I recall one lesbian mystery I read where the
                    detective got rather irritated that everyone expected her to be
                    thinking with her ... well, anyway.

                    Chris Davies.
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... Agreed. ... I can t asnwer this, since I m not that aware of authors in the yaoi market, and if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >From: Johann Chua <cjchua@...>

                      > >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
                      > >> emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women.
                      > >
                      > >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
                      > >surprising?
                      >
                      >Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no excuse.
                      >It seems like a deliberate style choice.


                      Agreed.

                      >Is it that much of a problem with
                      >(presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?

                      I can't asnwer this, since I'm not that aware of authors in the yaoi market,
                      and if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can say is
                      that if you lok at the near non-verbal qality of most male shoujo love
                      interests, we're talking about a view of men that isn't that flattering...

                      Male love interest in shoujo romances spend volumes trying to get a single
                      sententnce or even the vaguest expression of like or interest or attraction
                      out of their mouths - and usually fail until some crisis forces it out of
                      them.

                      True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a male
                      friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One day he
                      says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we dating?

                      She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo manga fan, he really
                      thought it worked like that - you like someone, you don't have to court
                      them, because they also like you, obviously, and then you get married. She
                      blamed manga and the fact that he didn't have any sisters. LOL

                      So maybe the feminization of a yaoi couple is to counter the perceived lack
                      of introspection and communication of straight males.

                      But as Sato-san said, "that's in my imgaination" and I can't verify it.


                      Cheers,

                      Erica

                      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                      http://www.yuricon.org


                      "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                      The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                      Because fanfic does not have to suck



                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
                      http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                    • Erica Friedman
                      ... I completely agree - Pattie and I were discussing this last night. In much yuri two (or more) women meet, and have sex. There s no context, no getting to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >From: "cricharddavies <cricharddavies@...>"
                        >
                        >And there are those who *could* claim that a lot of yuri is
                        >the "masculinization" of female/female relationships, or even of
                        >female behaviour -- I recall one lesbian mystery I read where the
                        >detective got rather irritated that everyone expected her to be
                        >thinking with her ... well, anyway.

                        I completely agree - Pattie and I were discussing this last night. In much
                        yuri two (or more) women meet, and have sex. There's no context, no getting
                        to know one another, no anything except sex.

                        A gay male friend of mine said that that was basically how he met new
                        boyfriends. He'd see someone he found attractive, have sex with them, and
                        if, afterwards, he liked the guy, they'd start dating.

                        So in that respect, yuri is a "masculine" approach to lesbian relationships.




                        Cheers,

                        Erica

                        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                        http://www.yuricon.org


                        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                        Because fanfic does not have to suck


                        _________________________________________________________________
                        STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
                        http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                      • Johann Chua
                        At 11:52 PM 01/31/2003 -0000, cricharddavies ... Well, unless they ve never been exposed to how guys talk that s no excuse. It seems
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 11:52 PM 01/31/2003 -0000, cricharddavies <cricharddavies@...>
                          wrote:
                          >--- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                          >wrote:
                          >
                          >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are completely
                          >> emasculated, and use language normally associated with young women.
                          >
                          >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
                          >surprising?

                          Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no excuse.
                          It seems like a deliberate style choice. Is it that much of a problem with
                          (presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?
                          --
                          Johann Chua -- HP: http://www.geocities.com/fuuma_1999/
                          "Does anything last forever? Does love? Does pain? I'll
                          tell you when I'm a thousand years old." Karen Kunawicz
                        • Alex Picchetti
                          ... Does it happen in all yaoi? Or just doujinshi? I don t know a heck of a lot about what sort of idioms (? I think that s the word I want) would be
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >> >> The "feminization" of male/male relationships. They are
                            completely
                            >> >> emasculated, and use language normally
                            associated with young women.
                            >> >
                            >> >Given who is
                            usually writing said tales, is that last really
                            >> >surprising?
                            >>
                            >>Well, unless they've never been exposed
                            to how guys talk that's no excuse.
                            >>It seems like a deliberate style
                            choice.
                            >
                            >Agreed.
                             
                            Does it happen in all yaoi? Or just doujinshi? I don't know a heck of a lot about what sort of idioms (? I think that's the word I want) would be considered "feminine" in Japan, besides the various ways of saying I/me, so I can't recognize these things...
                             
                            Then again, there was a study done (here) that suggested that super-feminine women are really sexy - but feminine men are sexier than more macho men, to the general populace. *shrug* So maybe they're just playing off that.

                            >>Is it that much of a problem with
                            >>(presumably)
                            straight male characters written by the same authors?
                            >
                            >I can't
                            asnwer this, since I'm not that aware of authors in the yaoi market,
                            >and
                            if any are also straight shoujo authors. The only thing I can say is
                            >that if you lok at the near non-verbal qality of most male shoujo love
                            >interests, we're talking about a view of men that isn't that
                            flattering...
                            >
                            >Male love interest in shoujo romances spend volumes
                            trying to get a single
                            >sententnce or even the vaguest expression of like
                            or interest or attraction
                            >out of their mouths - and usually fail until
                            some crisis forces it out of
                            >them.
                            *thinks* You know, that's really true ^^; Specifically right now I'm thinking of Mamoru from BSSM and Takeo from MTT!, because they're the only shoujo series with romance that I can think of o.x (I don't read plain romances, usually). Perhaps this is why shoujo romance series take hundreds of episodes to complete? :P ^^;
                             
                            Then again, depending on the age of the people involved, it may not be that off-base, for guys OR girls.

                            >True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a
                            male
                            >friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One
                            day he
                            >says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we
                            dating?
                            >
                            >She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo
                            manga fan, he really
                            >thought it worked like that - you like someone, you
                            don't have to court
                            >them, because they  also like you, obviously,
                            and then you get married. She
                            >blamed manga and the fact that he didn't
                            have any sisters. LOL
                            *lol* That's pretty funny, though I do find it doubtful that reading shoujo manga would have such a heavy impact. Maybe not... but I still don't think it's likely. (Where are the psychiatrists doing studies on these things? I'm moving to Japan when I graduate ;)

                            >So maybe the feminization of a yaoi couple is to counter the
                            perceived lack
                            >of introspection and communication of straight
                            males.
                            Turning them instead into wibbling balls of goo! :D

                            Though, as with anything, it's a case-by-case thing. I don't recall Zetsuai being particularly wibbly, feminine, or even openly communicative between Kouji and Izumi. *shrug* Maybe it's the only one? ^^;
                             
                            -Alex
                          • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
                            ... They may have been exposed, but it may have been noise instead of signal. If you re deliberately trying not to listen, it doesn t matter if you hear. ...
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Johann Chua <cjchua@m...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >Given who is usually writing said tales, is that last really
                              > >surprising?
                              >
                              > Well, unless they've never been exposed to how guys talk that's no
                              > excuse.

                              They may have been exposed, but it may have been noise instead of
                              signal. If you're deliberately trying not to listen, it doesn't
                              matter if you hear.

                              > It seems like a deliberate style choice. Is it that much of a
                              problem with
                              > (presumably) straight male characters written by the same authors?

                              <considers the now-thankfully dead "sekkushiaru roman" subgenre of
                              Sailor Moon fanfic> Yes.

                              Chris Davies.
                            • cricharddavies <cricharddavies@yahoo.com>
                              ... male ... day he ... dating? ... he really ... court ... married. She ... Really? Know a lot of people who take their cues on how to act tough from
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 1, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Picchetti" <nuriseiya@r...>
                                wrote:
                                > >True story - a penpal from Japan told me that she'd been meeting a
                                male
                                > >friend for a few years, a couple of times a year for dinner. One
                                day he
                                > >says, "so, when are we getting married?" She's like - are we
                                dating?
                                > >
                                > >She told me that she felt that because he was a shoujo manga fan,
                                he really
                                > >thought it worked like that - you like someone, you don't have to
                                court
                                > >them, because they also like you, obviously, and then you get
                                married. She
                                > >blamed manga and the fact that he didn't have any sisters. LOL
                                >
                                > *lol* That's pretty funny, though I do find it doubtful that
                                > reading shoujo manga would have such a heavy impact.

                                Really? Know a lot of people who take their cues on how to act tough
                                from pro-wrestling and action movies? Know anyone who seems to sample
                                his or her bon mots from sitcoms? Know anyone who pauses for the
                                laugh track?

                                We all know people who have a soundtrack, but that's more of a "those
                                darned portable music machines" problem. :)

                                Chris Davies.
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.