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Re: [Yuricon] Re: Yuricon Mailing List Policy - Please Read

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  • Rei Shaw
    Remember that alot of fansubbers will remove their torrents after a series becomes commercial back in the days of Video Cassette distrobution fansubbing distro
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 23, 2011
      Remember that alot of fansubbers will remove their torrents after a series becomes commercial back in the days of Video Cassette distrobution fansubbing distro was alot easier for the community to self police.

      I think there are ethical fansubbers out there, and ethical downloaders. I often download shows I've already bought on Reigon 2 DVD or Japanese Bluray so I can share it with friends in a way they can understand. But I've for my part already supported the show. Likewise I have all of Codename Wa Sailor V in Japanese but also scanlations of it, (which I will replace with the new English release).

      I think the need for fansubs has decreased greatly since the old the days... and with the fast paced release schedule in anime english fansubbers should tone it down a bit, but I don't think it's completely unethical in all situations. There are many people who do buy the products and use fansubs to aid in their understanding. Soft subs can be designed to overlay on the official release even.

      Still I do agree this is not the place to share it, and even if one doesn't agree about the ethics of fansubbing they should respect the rules of the group.

      Anyway I have a clarification I'd like to ask on a another part of the forum policy, can I post a link to a yuri related auction I have going on... or is that considered spam and mass selling? I don't want to break any of the rules here.


      Yes. You have no *right* to be entertained and you wanting a thing is no reason to presume you have a right to it. In fact, after the age of 4 or 5, that kind of thinking is considered sociopathic.

      Cheers,

      Erica


    • EricaF
      ... I agree that there are a few ethical fansubbers, but my idea of ethics is, perhaps, different. When a manga artists express dismay at the idea that their
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 24, 2011
        > I think there are ethical fansubbers out there,

        I agree that there are a few ethical fansubbers, but my idea of ethics is, perhaps, different.

        When a manga artists express dismay at the idea that their work is being fansubbed, I think that should be reason enough to stop. So far, even the "ethical" groups, who pull down subs when licenses are announced, don't stop when a manga artists ask them to stop. And this, among many other reasons, is why we at Yuricon do not support subs and scans any more. How can an action be justified when the artists themselves thinks it is a bad thing?

        For instance, Nakamura Ching has written on Twitter how dismayed she was to find her work being scanlated. She did not see it as a positive effort. When she and I discussed it, she felt that it would make it significantly harder to get her work licensed - and there are already fairly large barriers to that already. My Japanese is not good enough to explain the complexities of the market here to her, all I could say was that fans think they are doing something good. I counseled her and have counseled other manga artists to post "Please stop scanning my work" in English on their web pages, but they are frightened of doing so after Toboso Yana's experience. (She specifically asked fans to stop downloading her work on her blog and received comments that told her to starve to death, they didn't care. And these were her *fans.*)



        > Anyway I have a clarification I'd like to ask on a another part of the forum
        > policy, can I post a link to a yuri related auction I have going on... or is
        > that considered spam and mass selling? I don't want to break any of the
        > rules here.


        That's a fair question. We've allowed those in the past and you're a member in good standing, so I'll allow it. Go ahead. ^_^

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • Rei Shaw
        ... Just for arguements sake, Alan Moore hates having any of his work adapted to movies, yet in terms of the work he did for DC Comics he has no say, and films
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 24, 2011
          I agree that there are a few ethical fansubbers, but my idea of ethics is, perhaps, different.

          When a manga artists express dismay at the idea that their work is being fansubbed, I think that should be reason enough to stop. So far, even the "ethical" groups, who pull down subs when licenses are announced, don't stop when a manga artists ask them to stop. And this, among many other reasons, is why we at Yuricon do not support subs and scans any more. How can an action be justified when the artists themselves thinks it is a bad thing?


          >> I suppose that all depends on perspective, is the artist always right? Just for arguements sake, Alan Moore hates having any of his work adapted to movies, yet in terms of the work he did for DC Comics he has no say, and films have been made of several of his creations. It's an example of an artist thinking that something is bad but it still happening, in that context it's totally legal so is anyone in the wrong there?


           
          For instance, Nakamura Ching has written on Twitter how dismayed she was to find her work being scanlated. She did not see it as a positive effort. When she and I discussed it, she felt that it would make it significantly harder to get her work licensed - and there are already fairly large barriers to that already. My Japanese is not good enough to explain the complexities of the market here to her, all I could say was that fans think they are doing something good. I counseled her and have counseled other manga artists to post "Please stop scanning my work" in English on their web pages, but they are frightened of doing so after Toboso Yana's experience. (She specifically asked fans to stop downloading her work on her blog and received comments that told her to starve to death, they didn't care. And these were her *fans.*)


          It used to be that fansubs and scanlations were used by the american companies as a baramoter to judge what would be popular enough to import. At the height of the anime boom this stopped being the case, as companies would start scooping up shows long before they even finished production. So it's hard to say if it's a help or  a hinderence in this market. But there's no excuse for death threats no matter what disagrement you have with the artist.

          I can see someone persisting even if the artist asks them to stop, because they feel they support the franchise in their own way... those people who watch it fansubbed or read it scanlated may buy tons of statues and toys and even copies of the manga in Japanese. But you loose any moral standing when you resort to threats and harassement. And you loose any right to call yourself a fan.


        • EricaF
          ... I think these are different situations. Moore said that he didn t want to be associated with any movies made by DC. However... He had previously signed
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 24, 2011
            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Rei Shaw <rei.shaw@...> wrote:
            >

            > >> I suppose that all depends on perspective, is the artist always right?
            > Just for arguements sake, Alan Moore hates having any of his work adapted to
            > movies, yet in terms of the work he did for DC Comics he has no say, and
            > films have been made of several of his creations. It's an example of an
            > artist thinking that something is bad but it still happening, in that
            > context it's totally legal so is anyone in the wrong there?

            I think these are different situations.
            Moore said that he didn't want to be associated with any movies made by DC. However...

            He had previously signed agreements that allowed media companies to make those movies so whether he wanted them to or not, it was a moot issue. He was certainly within his rights to state that he had nothing to do with the movies and did not wnat to be associated from them (and, I believe, he donates a great deal of the proceeds from them to local charities.) Is DC "ethically wrong"? Perhaps. If you believe that a creator's wishes at the moment surpass the agreements they signed previously. It's not in DC's best interests to be ethical in this case, so The Watchmen was made. It was in Moore's best interest *at the time* to sign that contract, and he didn't consider buying the rights back from DC, so he lost out on trying to put his new best interests forward.

            In Toboso's case, or Nakamura's, no agreements of any kind have been made and scanlators have no rights of any kind to the material they are appropriating. In these cases, the creator is right, full stop. Scanlators have absolutely no viable claim to own what they distribute. When a manga artist says "stop, please, this upsets me" the only ethical thing to do is to stop.

            Cheers,

            Erica
          • Rei Shaw
            ... I do recognize how they are different situations, I was simply talking about the artists intent arguement in and of itself... There are many other
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 24, 2011
              In Toboso's case, or Nakamura's, no agreements of any kind have been made and scanlators have no rights of any kind to the material they are appropriating. In these cases, the creator is right, full stop. Scanlators have absolutely no viable claim to own what they distribute. When a manga artist says "stop, please, this upsets me" the only ethical thing to do is to stop.

              Cheers,

              Erica


              I do recognize how they are different situations, I was simply talking about the "artists intent" arguement in and of itself... There are many other situations where things are done against an artists wishes Which are not in the legal grey zone of scanlations and fansubs... that was the point I was trying to make.

              I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm just saying I can understand that there are reasons why they might continue and still feel they're in the right.  They might feel that in the long run they are helping the artist out because fans will buy merchandise etc. If I was scanlating something and the creator asked me to stop, I would... but I can understand dissenting points of view.

              But again when it becomes a harassment issue, they loose any moral high ground they might try to claim.

            • EricaF
              ... The ethicality of companies making decisions based on exploitative contracts is a whole topic of discussion on many sites. ^_^ There really isn t a grey
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 25, 2011
                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Rei Shaw <rei.shaw@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I do recognize how they are different situations, I was simply talking about
                > the "artists intent" arguement in and of itself... There are many other
                > situations where things are done against an artists wishes Which are not in
                > the legal grey zone of scanlations and fansubs... that was the point I was
                > trying to make.

                The ethicality of companies making decisions based on exploitative contracts is a whole topic of discussion on many sites. ^_^

                There really isn't a "grey zone" in the case of scanlations. All there is is the lack of creators knowing about it or feeling that they have any power to approach overseas illicit distributors. Most "ethical" scanltors know perfectly well thatmanga artists don't like scans, but waiting until they are actively told to stop by threat from company, lawyers or manga artists is hardly a "grey zone," really


                > But again when it becomes a harassment issue, they loose any moral high ground they might try to claim.

                Yes, there is that.

                I will repeat - I completely, totally sympathize with the frustration fans feel in not being able to get what they want. (I don't sympathize with fans who want it for free. That is simply childish selfishness.)

                I support the companies, the editors, artists, printers and distributors that make manga possible buy buying as much as I can. And so do *many* Yuricon members and Okazu readers. I'm very proud of all of you who do support the industry to the best of your ability. I also am with you all in wanting a system that provides a reasonably priced digital delivery system for translated manga, so we can all read what we want. I'm hoping that MangaReborn and JManga.com will be those solutions so that we can get what we want and still support the creators.

                Cheers,

                Erica
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