Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Yuricon] The Hitch, Utena & a semi-disturbing parallel

Expand Messages
  • Chalcahuite
    I can t really comment on this, having also not read it, but my suspicions are he s using heterosexual relationship when he means traditional gender roles
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 7, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      I can't really comment on this, having also not read it, but my suspicions are he's using "heterosexual relationship" when he means "traditional gender roles" where the man, Hitch in this case I'm presuming, is the dominant partner, just by going on his general conservative disposition and his writings I have read. If this is the case, then yes you can draw parallels to Utena, since gender roles are just one of the levels Utena works on. 
      That said, I agree with Hitch on occassion, but honestly, sometimes he doesn't know what he's talking about and needs to STFU. And I'd tell that to his face and we'd probably get into it a bit, and after we were both bloodied and exhausted, we'd have a couple of beers and be done with it. 


      On Jun 7, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Rikaishi wrote:

       

      Thanks for reminding me that I need to grab Hitch-22 at some point. I
      get the feeling that I'm going to disagree with him on that definition
      of hetero/homosexuality.

      It might help if you explained his reasoning a bit, since so far I get
      the feeling he would count any butch/femme relationship as
      "heterosexual"

      On 6/8/10, Wunderlampe <thirohk@...> wrote:
      > The question is mainly for all red blooded male Jury Arisugawa fans out
      > there, though it's of interest to all. I'm reading Christopher Hitchens's
      > memoir "Hitch-22" and in it he discusses his friendship with Martin Amis in
      > the following terms: that it is an answer to the question of whether it's
      > possible to have a heterosexual relationship with a member of your own sex.
      >
      > Which prompted the following question re:Jury fandom - is it possible to,
      > as it were, "go gay" over a member of the opposite sex? Because that's the
      > reaction Jury seems to draw out.
      >
      >


      -==-

      Serge

      "Visually Impressive!" -- Precocious Curmudgeon

      http://ximatl.blogspot.com

      http://albikal.blogspot.com



    • EricaF
      ... One of the things that made Utena such a powerful anime is that it dealt with...everything. Gender roles, sexuality, family relationships, taboos of just
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 8, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@...> wrote:
        >
        > I can't really comment on this, having also not read it, but my suspicions are he's using "heterosexual relationship" when he means "traditional gender roles" where the man, Hitch in this case I'm presuming, is the dominant partner, just by going on his general conservative disposition and his writings I have read. If this is the case, then yes you can draw parallels to Utena, since gender roles are just one of the levels Utena works on.

        One of the things that made Utena such a powerful anime is that it dealt with...everything. Gender roles, sexuality, family relationships, taboos of just about every kind. And it's easy to find parallels in Utena to just about any situation you need to. With the open-ended symbolism, and ambiguous meaning even in the things that seem obvious, there's room for just about any analogy.

        I've never read this guy's work, but based on nothing but what I've read here, it sounds like you've nailed the issue. There's a great deal of confusion about the difference between sexuality, gender roles and societal norms - even in the LGBT community.


        > That said, I agree with Hitch on occassion, but honestly, sometimes he doesn't know what he's talking about and needs to STFU. And I'd tell that to his face and we'd probably get into it a bit, and after we were both bloodied and exhausted, we'd have a couple of beers and be done with it.

        Sounds Like I'd be happier with the punching him the conk part than sitting and having a beer with the guy. :-)

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • Wunderlampe
        ... Actually, the Hitch is saying nothing of the sort, and he knows of what he speaks (read the sections about boarding school & Oxford...) ... True - but not
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 9, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Trying to keep it on topic, I'll just add a few corrections:


          > >
          > > I can't really comment on this, having also not read it, but my suspicions are he's using "heterosexual relationship" when he means "traditional gender roles" where the man, Hitch in this case I'm presuming, is the dominant partner, just by going on his general conservative disposition and his writings I have read. If this is the case, then yes you can draw parallels to Utena, since gender roles are just one of the levels Utena works on.
          >

          Actually, the Hitch is saying nothing of the sort, and he knows of what he speaks (read the sections about boarding school & Oxford...)

          > One of the things that made Utena such a powerful anime is that it dealt with...everything. Gender roles, sexuality, family relationships, taboos of just about every kind. And it's easy to find parallels in Utena to just about any situation you need to. With the open-ended symbolism, and ambiguous meaning even in the things that seem obvious, there's room for just about any analogy.

          True - but not quite what I meant. Simply, I know the reason I don't have a Jury-crush is that I was born male, and I'm certain that I would have one, were I born female. (welcome to anime, were desire can become _incredibly_ nuanced.)

          >
          > I've never read this guy's work, but based on nothing but what I've read here, it sounds like you've nailed the issue. There's a great deal of confusion about the difference between sexuality, gender roles and societal norms - even in the LGBT community.

          If you haven't read Christopher Hitchens, you should. He's one of the best writers around today. Nor has the above poster 'nailed the issue'; sorry if I made it unclear the first time round.
        • Wunderlampe
          ... Actually, the Hitch is saying nothing of the sort, and he knows of what he speaks (read the sections about boarding school & Oxford...) ... True - but not
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 9, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Trying to keep it on topic, I'll just add a few corrections:


            > >
            > > I can't really comment on this, having also not read it, but my suspicions are he's using "heterosexual relationship" when he means "traditional gender roles" where the man, Hitch in this case I'm presuming, is the dominant partner, just by going on his general conservative disposition and his writings I have read. If this is the case, then yes you can draw parallels to Utena, since gender roles are just one of the levels Utena works on.
            >

            Actually, the Hitch is saying nothing of the sort, and he knows of what he speaks (read the sections about boarding school & Oxford...)

            > One of the things that made Utena such a powerful anime is that it dealt with...everything. Gender roles, sexuality, family relationships, taboos of just about every kind. And it's easy to find parallels in Utena to just about any situation you need to. With the open-ended symbolism, and ambiguous meaning even in the things that seem obvious, there's room for just about any analogy.

            True - but not quite what I meant. Simply, I know the reason I don't have a Jury-crush is that I was born male, and I'm certain that I would have one, were I born female. (welcome to anime, were desire can become _incredibly_ nuanced.)

            >
            > I've never read this guy's work, but based on nothing but what I've read here, it sounds like you've nailed the issue. There's a great deal of confusion about the difference between sexuality, gender roles and societal norms - even in the LGBT community.

            If you haven't read Christopher Hitchens, you should. He's one of the best writers around today. Nor has the above poster 'nailed the issue'; sorry if I made it unclear the first time round.
          • Chalcahuite
            Did a quick Google search and The Times of London actually has an excerpt from Hitch 22, specifically the section in question.
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 9, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Did a quick Google search and The Times of London actually has an excerpt from Hitch 22, specifically the section in question. 


              On Jun 9, 2010, at 6:37 AM, Wunderlampe wrote:

               

              Trying to keep it on topic, I'll just add a few corrections:

              > >
              > > I can't really comment on this, having also not read it, but my suspicions are he's using "heterosexual relationship" when he means "traditional gender roles" where the man, Hitch in this case I'm presuming, is the dominant partner, just by going on his general conservative disposition and his writings I have read. If this is the case, then yes you can draw parallels to Utena, since gender roles are just one of the levels Utena works on.
              >

              Actually, the Hitch is saying nothing of the sort, and he knows of what he speaks (read the sections about boarding school & Oxford...)


              Based on the above excerpt, I concede that their relationship is not as I stated, but I also don't think Hitch "went gay" for Martin.  I do, however,  still think "heterosexual relationship" is not the right term. The problem, though, is that that there isn't a word for what he's implying, the closest would probably be "more than friends, less than lovers" and that's a mouthful. (No pun intended) Though at some point in the past the term "friends" used to cover this ground, Tolkien's male characters for LotR immediately come to mind, in that sense. (I think it may be a function of greater awareness of the LGBT community and issues that contemporary audiences conflate such close and intimate friendships with romance and desire. It's what the whole slash/yuri goggles is predicated on, but I digress.) I think in the past you might have used "boon companion" or "bosom buddy", or even "best friend" to describe such a relationship. And contemporary slang "Bromance" and "BFF" don't fit his writing style and while Hitch is comfortable quoting other European languages, I don't think he's all that familiar with Japanese, as "shinyuu" would probably cover that space quite well. 
              The phrase "go gay for", as you said, includes a desire component (though that's reducing the complexity of the relationship to pure desire, but digressing again), but Hitch disclaims that, coincidentally (or not) in the paragraph after he says he slept with Martin's sister. Every time I've heard the phrase "go gay for" the implication has always been that the speaker would have sex with the person so described, but I don't think that's what Hitch was implying. I get the sense that the entire phrase in question and especially his use of "more or less" is self-deprecating, and is not intended to reveal a serious period of contemplation of his own sexuality, as evidenced by his further adventures with Martin. 
              As a final point, Hitch also doesn't give any sense or define his "heterosexual relationship" with Martin as being in any way different than just spending a lot of time with your best friend and getting into a lot trouble with him/her. The implication is as stated above, but I don't see it supported in the text following the use of that phrase. Hitch was, probably, just  trying to be clever. 
              But, that's just my take on just the excerpt. Your mileage may vary. ;) 


              -==-

              Serge

              "Visually Impressive!" -- Precocious Curmudgeon

              http://ximatl.blogspot.com

              http://albikal.blogspot.com



            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.