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RE: [Yuricon] Re: Important Announcement for this List

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  • yoni-1@empathosnation.org
    I don t often sdd to the discussion here, preferring to follow the conversation, but on this issue, I feel compelled to interject. I write mysteries.  When a
    Message 1 of 13 , May 20, 2010
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      I don't often sdd to the discussion here, preferring to follow the conversation, but on this issue, I feel compelled to interject.

      I write mysteries.  When a novel of mine is published, it's my bread and butter.  It's how I survive in many cases and not just a supplement to my day job.  While I do have a day job, I don't make enough there to meet the needs of my family, and the two efforts combine to make a reasonable income.  If an artist or writer has their material copied and distributed without their permission, that subtracts from their income resulting in that much less money for food on the table, and that much less money for basics like housing, and utilities.  Contrary to what modern entertainment may tell you, very few people become rich as writers or artists.

      This is why we have copyright laws and such concepts as "intellectual property."  For many of us it's simply a matter of survival.  If we lose money from out crafts, we have no reason to produce any more of it.  This means that if you want more, buy more.  Scans are fine if the person who scans the material that they bought for themselves, and then Refrains from distributing it.  Give it to someone else, and you've broken the law.  Post it on the internet and you've broken the law.  Sell it to someone else and you've broken the law.  You become liable not just for fines and jail time, but to also replace the lost income of the artist who produced the work in the first place.

      As for translations, I'll also echo Erica on one more point.  Learn Japanese.  I have and I find it all the more fun because I get subtle meanings that you lose in translation.  Yes, learning Japanese is a major undertaking, but you'll find that even that can be a lot of fun.

      Charuko

      On May 20, 2010 at 11:32 AM Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

       

      > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups .com
      > From: shanejayell2000@ yahoo.com
      > Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:13:25 +0000
      > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Important Announcement for this List
      >
      > I certainly appreciate your views, and on one hand I do think you have a point. On the other, without scanlations how can north american fans be introduced to many of these fine works? More importantly, without scanlations we cannot advocate for yuri official translations since we won't know what we're talking about.
      >
      > Well, not unless we all read Japanese.


      Of course, I encourage you all to learn Japanese, because it will solve many of the issues involved. :-)

      The fallacy is that fans cannot "advocate" for official translations in most cases. The fandom is largely passive, mostly paranoid and often aggressively clueless about industry forces. "I like this title" repeated xxx times is not actually motivation for any company to invest in a series. "I will buy it" only works if enough people put their money where their mouth is...and in most cases of translated titles catering to the Yuri Market, that has not been true.

      It's not enough to have 10,000 people want a thing. There has to be half of them who will buy it, or there's just not enough critical mass to do the stuff that makes it possible.

      It might feel great to give away 10,000 copies of a thing when you paid nothing for it, but it feels less good when you're out a few thousand dollars, with no way to recoup that investment.

      Cheers,

      Erica


      Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how.


       


    • EricaF
      ... No, I absolutely didn t take it that way at all! Text conversation is exceedingly imprecise and fandom is paranoid, so I wanted to say it plainly and
      Message 2 of 13 , May 20, 2010
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Kat Ehas <kat0211@...> wrote:
        >
        > Erica,
        >
        > I didn't mean to imply that you were asking Lili to stop. If you took what
        > I said that way, I apologize.

        No, I absolutely didn't take it that way at all! Text conversation is exceedingly imprecise and fandom is paranoid, so I wanted to say it plainly and simply. :-)

        Fan paranoia means that anything I say will be parsed in the way most open to outrage. I know you know what I mean, Kat. lol

        For instance - no matter how many times I thank people here and on Okazu for supporting the industry and that my position was not that "people who read scans suck" only, "I no longer feel I can support scans because I believe they contribute more to the problem than the solution" Shane immediately got angry at me for the one thing I did not actually say. That kind of cognitive dissonance is very common online.

        I do need to amend something I previously stated. I said, "I do not fear debate." What I should have said was, "I am open to and encourage rational discussion because I am well aware of the complexities of the issue and interested in an ongoing dialogue about it. "

        My opinion has changed over the years and it will undoubtedly continue to do so.

        I know there are varying degrees of semi-legit justification: people in other countries who don't get anything licensed, or for whom it is exorbitant to ship from Japan. (It is for me too, but that's why I work - to pay for my interests.) Or "I read scans but I buy." I am well aware of these arguments and they are clearly valid for the people who make them.

        The argument I will not regard as valid are, "I have no money,' because the answer is that you have no right to expect entertainment for free.

        Perhaps through time and discussion we can all come up with a better way - one that serve the needs of the creator and the fandom.

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • Grisznak
        I guess that scans problem is alive in every manga fandom, no matter where. Here in Poland we had similar discussions many times. There’s no perfect solution
        Message 3 of 13 , May 20, 2010
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          I guess that scans problem is alive in every manga fandom, no matter where. Here in Poland we had similar discussions many times. There’s no perfect solution because there are no simple answers. It's not a thing of "yes" and "no".


          Let's make the things clear - we were all starting from piracy. Fansubs, scanlations were important part of our hobby. Nothing to be afraid or to feel shame - most of us, anime fans, are still watching fansubs. We're reading scans as well. Number of people who knows Japanese well enough to read manga in original is small and always will be.

          I don't know Japanese. But I can read in polish (my native language), German and English. This makes me pretty lucky, 'cos there are many big publishing houses in US, UK and Germany as well. Thanks to that I have all volumes of Lady Oscar, Maria Sama Ga Miteru and some other classic shoujo/shoujo ai series. Sometimes I have to pay much to get a manga I'd like to read. Here in Poland we have not much small manga market (four companies and about 3-5 volumes per month), but none publishes any shoujo ai and there are no views for such manga in the upcoming future. But I'm writing for a manga magazine and I'd like to show my readers best shoujo-ai/yuri manga. So scans are only option sometimes.

          Another thing that I'm interesting in is manga and anime history. No-one publishes historical series. I paid lot of money to get whole "Adolf" by Osamu Tezuka, but to get "Astroboy", "Cutie Honey" and many other old school manga is impossible for me. It's not that I don't want to buy it. I can't buy it. Same goes to the titles like "Claudine" or "Maya's funeral procession". Give me a chance to buy this titles - I'll do it. But when I can't, I have to read the scans.

           

          Summa summarum, we don’t have to by hypocrites. Scans are last possible solution. If there are no options, feel free to use them.


          Cheers

          Grisznak




          2010/5/20 EricF <anilesbocon01@...>
           

          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Kat Ehas <kat0211@...> wrote:
          >
          > Erica,
          >
          > I didn't mean to imply that you were asking Lili to stop. If you took what
          > I said that way, I apologize.

          No, I absolutely didn't take it that way at all! Text conversation is exceedingly imprecise and fandom is paranoid, so I wanted to say it plainly and simply. :-)

          Fan paranoia means that anything I say will be parsed in the way most open to outrage. I know you know what I mean, Kat. lol

          For instance - no matter how many times I thank people here and on Okazu for supporting the industry and that my position was not that "people who read scans suck" only, "I no longer feel I can support scans because I believe they contribute more to the problem than the solution" Shane immediately got angry at me for the one thing I did not actually say. That kind of cognitive dissonance is very common online.

          I do need to amend something I previously stated. I said, "I do not fear debate." What I should have said was, "I am open to and encourage rational discussion because I am well aware of the complexities of the issue and interested in an ongoing dialogue about it. "

          My opinion has changed over the years and it will undoubtedly continue to do so.

          I know there are varying degrees of semi-legit justification: people in other countries who don't get anything licensed, or for whom it is exorbitant to ship from Japan. (It is for me too, but that's why I work - to pay for my interests.) Or "I read scans but I buy." I am well aware of these arguments and they are clearly valid for the people who make them.

          The argument I will not regard as valid are, "I have no money,' because the answer is that you have no right to expect entertainment for free.

          Perhaps through time and discussion we can all come up with a better way - one that serve the needs of the creator and the fandom.

          Cheers,

          Erica


        • Shane
          Sorry for getting snippy. I work nights and had just got home when I started reading... not my best time for well thought out responces. I m probably gonna
          Message 4 of 13 , May 20, 2010
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            Sorry for getting snippy.

            I work nights and had just got home when I started reading... not my best time for well thought out responces.

            I'm probably gonna agree to disagree on the scanlation issue, but this is your sandbox and I understand why you're doing this.

            *changes subject*

            So... how's TV this season?

            Shane
            ^_~

            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Kat, Shane -
            > I appreciate your points as well.
            > Shane, I have *repeatedly* said that I'm aware that many members of this group and readers of Okazu support the industry meaningfully - and I thank you and them constantly for your support. I am not implying that all readers of scans don't buy. I know that many of you do. What I am saying is that you are small minority in a huge pond. The sad truth is that for every one person who uses scans to foster an interest in a series and then buys it, there are hundreds, in some cases, thousands or tens of thousands of people who are content to take what is free and have no intention of buying anything for any reason.
            > I get many emails and comments from people looking for scans and in most cases when I suggest purchasing things the response is, "I don't want to "support" anything, I'm just looking for free scans." This is the majority. I wish it weren't.
            > I am fully aware that many of the scan groups as as ethical as they can be given the reason for their existence. I am in no way impugning them or ranting against their existence or purpose. It just has come to the point where I and Yuricon simply can no longer provide even emotional support to work that is basically distribution of material that is not theirs to distribute. If they got permission from a manga artist, then there would be no question.
            > To your point Kat, I would not ask Lili to stop, nor do I have an intention of coming onto the channel and being a horse's ass about it. I hold you all in high regard and appreciate the effort you all put into to what you do. I just wish it were a legal situation, instead of an illegal one. It would thrill me to pieces if successful scan groups put half as much effort into legitimizing their work as they do into the work itself.
            > I don't fear debate, but I'll be honest and say that it's unlikely to change anything. Unless scan groups start getting manga artist's permission, they are distributing material they have no right to distribute. When that situation changes, I'll be thrilled to revise the policy here once more.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Erica
            >
            >
            >
            > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > From: kat0211@...
            > Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:58:29 -0400
            > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Important Announcement for this List
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            > Personally, I don't think that this issue is open to debate. This is Erica's sandbox, and she makes the rules. And her argument for this change in policy appears to be that "why should companies bother to make the investment necessary to bring these works to the North American market when scan groups are stealing their properties and making them accessible to the that market at no cost? Confronted with the choice of paying for a title that you've already gotten for nothing, most 'rational man' consumers aren't going to pay for it. And this is how corporations make their decisions on what to bring to market." And Erica definitely has a point there. This coming from someone who does work for Lililicious, and will continue to do so.
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            > In other words, Erica is well within her rights to make this decision, and the logic behind it is sound. I don't necessarily agree with it, and certainly understand the counterarguments, but I'm not going to debate the issue, because there is sound logic to the decision, and it's probably the correct stance for her to be taking based on that logic, which is probably the logic that is used by companies in making their corporate decisions about which titles to bring to this market. But that's not going to stop me from continuing to do the work that I have in bringing scanlations to the fans, either. It just means that I'm going to respect Erica's right to make her own rules for her group.
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            > kat_chan
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            > On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Shane <shanejayell2000@...> wrote:
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            > Speaking personally, I've bought every yuri title that's come out in english, so I resent the implication that scanlation fans don't buy books.
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            > I also buy any other series I 'preview' in scanlations, including Negima and others.
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            > Shane
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            > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@> wrote:
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            > > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > > From: shanejayell2000@
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            > > > Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:13:25 +0000
            >
            > > > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Important Announcement for this List
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > I certainly appreciate your views, and on one hand I do think you have a point. On the other, without scanlations how can north american fans be introduced to many of these fine works? More importantly, without scanlations we cannot advocate for yuri official translations since we won't know what we're talking about.
            >
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            > > >
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            > > > Well, not unless we all read Japanese.
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            > > Of course, I encourage you all to learn Japanese, because it will solve many of the issues involved. :-)
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            > > The fallacy is that fans cannot "advocate" for official translations in most cases. The fandom is largely passive, mostly paranoid and often aggressively clueless about industry forces. "I like this title" repeated xxx times is not actually motivation for any company to invest in a series. "I will buy it" only works if enough people put their money where their mouth is...and in most cases of translated titles catering to the Yuri Market, that has not been true.
            >
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            > > It's not enough to have 10,000 people want a thing. There has to be half of them who will buy it, or there's just not enough critical mass to do the stuff that makes it possible.
            >
            > > It might feel great to give away 10,000 copies of a thing when you paid nothing for it, but it feels less good when you're out a few thousand dollars, with no way to recoup that investment.
            >
            > > Cheers,
            >
            > > Erica
            >
            > > __________________________________________________________
            >
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          • Nanchan
            unsubscribe
            Message 5 of 13 , May 23, 2010
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            • Wunderlampe
              Dear Erica, No arguments from me & congrats. I m late to this, but I m sure we ll all back your wishes.
              Message 6 of 13 , May 30, 2010
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                Dear Erica,

                No arguments from me & congrats. I'm late to this, but I'm sure we'll all back your wishes.

                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "EricaF" <anilesbocon01@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello -
                >
                > Yesterday I posted at great length about my opinion on scanlations on Okazu. This post will have some repercussions for this list.
                >
                > I will not stop anyone from discussing series that they may have read through a scanlation or watched through a fansub, because it is not my desire to police your behavior or nanny you.
                >
                > However - I have asked Lililicious to stop announcing new scans here. I respect them deeply and admire their work, but strongly believe that it is contributing to the problem more than to the solution. I understand that many of you here do buy the books after you have read scans.
                >
                > I have removed my translations of the Marimite novels from here and from Okazu and will not be posting more. Again, not because I don't respect the work that goes into them, but because I believe that we have no right to distribute material we don't own or have been given permission to distribute.
                >
                > This differs from my belief in the power of original fan-work. I strongly encourage fanfic and fanart of anything original I have ever posted here or on the YC site. All of the SnB and SnR characters are at your disposal to write about or draw - I am giving you explicit permission to have fun with them and create new stories, art, videos, as you see fit.
                >
                > I hope you will all support me in these decisions. I understand that some of you may not. Yuricon started as a fan community and I hope that it can continue as a fan community - I also hope that as a community, we'll take a greater responsibility in making the industry we love sustainable.
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Erica
                >
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