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RE: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers

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  • Erica Friedman
    ... I have, in fact, written a basic guide to spoiler space several times here - most recently, a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is
    Message 1 of 16 , May 13, 2009
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      > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      > From: thirohk@...
      > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:58:44 +0000
      > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
      >
      > My dear Erica,
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      > Perhaps you should provide a primer
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      > On how to make
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      > Spoiler Space
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      > Effective
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      I have, in fact, written a basic guide to spoiler space several times here - most recently, a few weeks ago.

      Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is only finding ancient posts today and I am far too lazy to bother looking for it manually. :-)

      >
      > Well, obviously not. Goethe had the kind of mind that's born maybe once a century. He was ridiculously intelligent. Yet, when I realized that the creators were aware, things got a great deal more interesting. So I'll be ordering the box-set once my paycheque's in this month.

      A wise decision, I assure you. when i realized that the holes in the story, the inconsistencies, the changes of worldview were intentional, it set the series above many others for me. It takes an artist to leave things out.

      >
      >> Yes. Upper-class girls, treated as special their whole lives, because they can pilot a ship in complex shapes on the air. Rank, privilege, status - they have everything, except an appreciation for life.
      >
      > That's a good point.

      If you're going to agree with me, we might as well not have this conversation. ;-)

      >
      >> The Met is cranking through all of Massanet's stuff this season, so I've seen Manon (and LFG that I am, immediately thought of "Applause") Faust and Werther.
      >
      > Tell me it's not the full-length version of Faust.


      I have no idea. I don't go to the Opera, I sit here at home and allow Great Performances to be the background to my Sunday chores. I never notice the time.


      >
      >> I don't think that this is opposite at all. The fact that the theocracy stumbled upon advanced technology served - in their minds - to make them beloved of the gods.
      >
      > I meant opposite to the way the Theocracy apparently sees things.

      I'm still not sure that they do see things opposite. A gift from the gods, because we are the worthy ones, is how I think they see it.



      >> Of *course* they showed no particular merit or understanding. And because they built a cargo cult around these ships, they made it taboo to even try and learn something about them. Thus the "charots of the gods" become too sacred to be interfered with - even as this clueless, elitist society justifies their use as weapons.
      >
      > Indeed. Though I sometimes wonder what the devil that ending is about then...

      Because they had learned one thing - about the Emerald remersion.

      Makes me wonder if the Simoun aren't more like a virus, rather than a technology, now.



      > Extreme example? Probably; but not that extreme. I've been reading the history of the mongol conquests. There's no question in my mind that any of the Khans - or for that matter, Homer's Akhaians - would not have leveled a few cities just to make a point.

      This was not a real war, it's true. It was a toy way, like the Gundam wars. fought way above the heads of the people and their losses are peripheral to the story.


      > As regards their autocracy, that was something else that bothered me. Why do they need chemicals and so forth? It would appear that they don't have a spring of that sort, and if you postulate that they were severed from it because of the Theocracy's weirdness, then there'd be even more justification for Argentium's view. I think the balance of probability is on that side, rather than them being 'denied the sacrament' because of war - if the Theocracy wasn't going to share the Simoun tech, I suspect it wouldn't share the springs. Well, that's just speculation on my part though.

      No explanation of why they need (or whether they need) chemicals is made. I think we are not meant to see them as "decent" at all, but as filthy, technology based enemies and no more. when the gas mask is removed, we learn that their lives are horrid and miserable. We don't know if they even know about the spring. all we know is that they see the Simoun as the key to something better.



      >> Much like actual theocracies on this planet - or indeed supposedly secular governments - who point to other countires, bestowing them with the titles like Axis of Evil.
      >
      > Okay, I am sorry to have to go off topic here, but I won't pass that.

      I'm not arguing that some countries are not evil - just that no country has *always* been and *always* will be so. In order to hate the enemy properly, we have to dehumanize them. I won't finish my thought here, since there are entirely off topic, but if you'd like to know the en of this paragraph, email me privately. :-)



      >> Which is why the epilogue with Floef and Vyuraf interested me so much. Like our own Earth-bound countries, the countries in Simoun seemed to have learned nothin from their losses.
      >
      > I take the sad view that war isn't an aberration, but the human condition. We can reduce it, fight it less, fight it more civilized manner, not have the hideous practices of earlier times, but we can't get rid of it. That's I'm quite impressed by what Argentium doesn't do.

      I agree with this. there's been no end to war happening somewhere, sometime, so I do think it's time to stop thinking of it as a necessary evil and consider it more like a destructive hobby. Again, off-topic.

      >
      > A fascinating follow up would be a series of vignettes from the point of view of members of Argentium and Plumbum.

      I wouldn't think so, since, like those watching shakespeare's play, we most enjoy watching the fall of the mighty. :-)


      >
      >> It took a LOT to shift her from her state of denial and if Aeru hadn't been there, I think her end would have been flaming death as she realized the pointlessness of everything. Because Aeru was there, they had an escape route.

      >
      > Well, Aeru RULES! My favorite character in the series. I really enjoyed that scene where she and Parietta have the mid-air fencing duel.

      My favorite character was Yun. Her choice, of all of their's interested me most.

      Cheers,

      Erica

      Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
      http://okazu.blogspot.com

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    • BlackSkaven
      ... So - this gives others the right to take the technology by force then? ... Makes me wonder why you despise Brecht - could only be his style to tell his
      Message 2 of 16 , May 13, 2009
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        josephglanvill wrote:

        > ________________ And here
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        > ________________We Go
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        > ___________________Again...
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        > As a matter of fact, I happen to despise Brecht. The parallel you are trying to construct doesn't hold, I'm afraid.
        >
        > Simulacrum did not manufacture this technology itself. It controls the Simoun by no virtue of their own.

        So - this gives others the right to take the technology by force then?

        > Had they earned such power, that would be a different matter, a very different matter.

        Makes me wonder why you despise Brecht - could only be his style to
        'tell' his stories then.

        > More importantly, it would have fundamentally changed the nature of Simulacrum; they would have traded with Argentium or conquered it or whatever,

        That's just not their kind of society. Makes me wonder how the other
        countries deal with gender. I don't remember they really say something
        about this.

        >> We don't see whether or not people are massacred. It would be VERY
        >> unrealistic if there wouldn't be widespread rape, murder and pillaging.
        >
        > I am sorry to have to be blunt, but that's foolishness. There is no evidence at all for this

        You just assume the others are decent, because it's not dealt with in
        Simoun. What's so honorable about using negotations for sabotage for
        example? I guess the cause excuses anything?

        >> Ever heard of "Wernher von Braun"? Obviously not ...
        >
        > The idea that the priestesses would use the Simoun for Argentium is ridiculous; not least because they shortly visit the spring.

        So everybody can fly a Simoun? Beats me ...

        >> So what should they have done instead - getting slaughtered?
        >
        > As I have said before, they should have accepted the reality of war, of the fact that they had _an enemy_, and acted appropriately. If you mean Tibet, though, that is not a discussion for here; if you want, I'll send you some articles on the subject.

        <irony> Yeah - and it's the woman's fault if she's being raped ... </irony>

        BlackSkaven
      • josephglanvill
        Let s see if this works
        Message 3 of 16 , May 14, 2009
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          Let's see if this works ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



          > Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is only finding ancient posts today and I am far too lazy to bother looking for it manually. :-)

          Well, I'm experimenting away at the moment.


          > If you're going to agree with me, we might as well not have this conversation. ;-)

          Well, you had been polite enough to mention when you agreed with me, so I thought I should reply in kind.

          > I have no idea. I don't go to the Opera, I sit here at home and allow Great Performances to be the background to my Sunday chores. I never notice the time.

          Not the full length version then: it's twenty-one hours long.

          >
          > Because they had learned one thing - about the Emerald remersion.
          >
          > Makes me wonder if the Simoun aren't more like a virus, rather than a technology, now.

          Could you expand on that? I'm not sure I follow.


          > This was not a real war, it's true. It was a toy way, like the Gundam wars. fought way above the heads of the people and their losses are peripheral to the story.

          I don't know Gundam, so I'll have to take your word on that.

          Hmmm... If anyone ever does a good, anime treatment of one of the Khans (Ghenghis or Hulagu would by my preference), I'd be very happy.


          > No explanation of why they need (or whether they need) chemicals is made. I think we are not meant to see them as "decent" at all, but as filthy, technology based enemies and no more. when the gas mask is removed, we learn that their lives are horrid and miserable. We don't know if they even know about the spring. all we know is that they see the Simoun as the key to something better.

          That's certainly a point of view, but I see it the opposite way, that Argentium's technology is so toxic because they've had to develop it all on their own and didn't just get it handed to them. Anyway, a sign of something good is that you can view it many ways.

          > I'm not arguing that some countries are not evil - just that no country has *always* been and *always* will be so. In order to hate the enemy properly, we have to dehumanize them. I won't finish my thought here, since there are entirely off topic, but if you'd like to know the en of this paragraph, email me privately. :-)

          Ah'll take care of it.


          >
          > I agree with this. there's been no end to war happening somewhere, sometime, so I do think it's time to stop thinking of it as a necessary evil and consider it more like a destructive hobby. Again, off-topic.

          Didn't mean it to be; if the point is that the choirs won't accept the reality of war, then the eternal existence of the same is a salient point. Or something.

          > I wouldn't think so, since, like those watching shakespeare's play, we most enjoy watching the fall of the mighty. :-)

          Not really. I'd just like to explore the whole conflict from the hard-bitten view of the Argentites, or the weird religious society of Plumbum.

          > My favorite character was Yun. Her choice, of all of their's interested me most.

          Have to ask this then: Do you agree that Yun is "Kyon, the Simoun version"? :-)
        • Erica Friedman
          ... In short - physical space for folks reading the list on their email and a sentence or two for yahoogroups propensity to summarize only new text, for folks
          Message 4 of 16 , May 14, 2009
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            ----------------------------------------
            > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > From: thirohk@...
            > Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:13:18 +0000
            > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
            >
            > Let's see if this works ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >> Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is only finding ancient posts today and I am far too lazy to bother looking for it manually. :-)
            >
            > Well, I'm experimenting away at the moment.



            In short - physical space for folks reading the list on their email and a sentence or two for yahoogroups' propensity to summarize only new text, for folks getting the ML on the web.



            >
            >> This was not a real war, it's true. It was a toy way, like the Gundam wars. fought way above the heads of the people and their losses are peripheral to the story.
            >
            > I don't know Gundam, so I'll have to take your word on that.


            You don't need to, really. Any show with mecha tends to be about the pilots of the mecha and in most of these shows, they fight on space, or stories above any humans. Buildings crushed beneath their feet - there are few shows (although they do exist) that deal with the people in those buildings.

            I think it was Sally in gundam Wing who lambasted the elite fighters for fighting so far about the eads of the people that they had no idea of the damage they caused.

            >> No explanation of why they need (or whether they need) chemicals is made. I think we are not meant to see them as "decent" at all, but as filthy, technology based enemies and no more. when the gas mask is removed, we learn that their lives are horrid and miserable. We don't know if they even know about the spring. all we know is that they see the Simoun as the key to something better.
            >
            > That's certainly a point of view, but I see it the opposite way, that Argentium's technology is so toxic because they've had to develop it all on their own and didn't just get it handed to them. Anyway, a sign of something good is that you can view it many ways.


            I don't disagree - but that's *exactly* the point. The theocracy sees this as "proof" of their superiority. God's favor and all.

            >> My favorite character was Yun. Her choice, of all of their's interested me most.
            >
            > Have to ask this then: Do you agree that Yun is "Kyon, the Simoun version"? :-)

            Honestly, I don't see any point of comparison between Kyon and yun. She's more a Haruhi by choice, if you must force an analogy at all. But it seems a really weird analogy to me.


            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org

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