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Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers

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  • josephglanvill
    [SPOILER ALERT] I ve always been ambivalent about Simoun, though i ve had trouble working out why. The characters are well realized, the setting is really
    Message 1 of 16 , May 11, 2009
      [SPOILER ALERT]

      I've always been ambivalent about Simoun, though i've had trouble working out why. The characters are well realized, the setting is really neat, the production is gorgeous. And it has cool flying machines, which I've always had a weakness for. Yet the series has never really done it for me; there's always been something about the characters that got my goat.

      Then the parallel finally dawned on me. Simoun reminds me of The Sorrows of Young Werther, which I went over, by a cruel stroke of luck, in both my German and English courses. If you don't know this book, the central point is that it is written by one of the greatest writers in history, if not the greatest. Yet it's main character is one of the least likable so-and-sos in all fiction. Which is the point, and it's obvious that Goethe knows exactly what he's like.

      I wouldn't compare any of Simoun's characters to Werther. Yet the parallel is still there; what I found so unlikable about them was that - with the exception of Aeru - they did not seem to be able to work out that they were _at war_. The picture-perfect example would be Floe's comment "Why are they doing this?" Answer: Because you just killed about a thousand of their comrades, that's why.

      The parallel is pretty exact: it makes sense that the Choirs can act that way, since they've had unquestioned aerial superiority for as long as anyone can remember, and apparently never had to work for the same. That explains why they're so removed from the reality of war. It's really very clever, when you look at it like that.

      But that _still_ doesn't change my view that they all need a four-day crash-course in Herr Major's Millennium academy
    • Erica Friedman
      ... I m adding some spoiler space here Not because I believe there will be many spoilers But because it doesn t hurt to do so ... So *much* of anime can
      Message 2 of 16 , May 11, 2009
        > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        > From: thirohk@...
        > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 07:10:41 +0000
        > Subject: [Yuricon] Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
        >
        > [SPOILER ALERT]


        I'm adding some spoiler space here



        Not because I believe there will be many spoilers





        But because it doesn't hurt to






        do so


        > Then the parallel finally dawned on me. Simoun reminds me of The Sorrows of Young Werther, which I went over, by a cruel stroke of luck, in both my German and English courses. If you don't know this book, the central point is that it is written by one of the greatest writers in history, if not the greatest. Yet it's main character is one of the least likable so-and-sos in all fiction. Which is the point, and it's obvious that Goethe knows exactly what he's like.

        So *much* of anime can compare to that story, since teenage angst is basically what it's about. the casual existentialism of a youg person with no real goal. A timeless classic.

        For the record, I read it in German and English, remember little about it in either language, remember only the operatic version by Massanet performed by the Met this year with Thomas Hampson in the role of the father, and frankly, have made up most of what I think about it in my head years after reading it. :-)


        > I wouldn't compare any of Simoun's characters to Werther. Yet the parallel is still there; what I found so unlikable about them was that - with the exception of Aeru - they did not seem to be able to work out that they were _at war_. The picture-perfect example would be Floe's comment "Why are they doing this?" Answer: Because you just killed about a thousand of their comrades, that's why.


        This a completely valid point. It can be explained by several things. one of course is, denial. The girls were never meant to be in a war, they were trained as priestesses who pray with these vehicles of the gods. the war was started in a state of denial by their government who felt an unwarranted superority because of these vehicles, and ultimately thrust the priestesses into the position of defending their status. But of you asked the theocracy, they probably wouldn't have admitted it was a *war*. just that people who were jealous of them wanted to destroy their perfect way of life.

        Neville made a point when she stood up to the council to basically say - YOU may be conducting a war that YOu started, but we are priestesses who pray. If you force us into the position of fighting YOUR war, you'll loos both us and yourselves. But they didn't listen to her.

        And in Floe's defense - at the beginning, the Sibylla didn't leave the borders of their own country, so they were, really, defending their world from what appeared to be unreasonable and indifensible attacks. Why are doing this - because you have a country that is perceived as perfect and beautiful and if others can't have what you have, if they can't wrest it from you by physical force, then they will be content with destroying it, so no one has it at all. I'm sure we can all think of a few recent parallels on both the micro and macro scale.

        Cheers,

        Erica

        Hungry for Yuri/ Have some Okazu!
        http://okazu.blogspot.com
        _________________________________________________________________
        Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
        http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009
      • josephglanvill
        ... Duly noted. :) Anyway, this has really got me thinking, so thanks Erica! ... Well, yes and no. What makes _Werther_ a classic is that Goethe is aware of
        Message 3 of 16 , May 11, 2009
          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          > > From: thirohk@...
          > > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 07:10:41 +0000
          > > Subject: [Yuricon] Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
          > >
          > > [SPOILER ALERT]
          >
          >
          > I'm adding some spoiler space here
          >
          >
          >
          > Not because I believe there will be many spoilers
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > But because it doesn't hurt to
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > do so
          >

          Duly noted. :) Anyway, this has really got me thinking, so thanks Erica!


          > So *much* of anime can compare to that story, since teenage angst is basically what it's about. the casual existentialism of a youg person with no real goal. A timeless classic.

          Well, yes and no. What makes _Werther_ a classic is that Goethe is aware of what a whiner Werther is. It's a kind of cleansing; Goethe's writing that he's glad he is no longer that person, and you can see it. Whereas so much anime acts like that kind of thing is something to be proud of.

          There's that Blackadder exchange he has with Pitt the Younger (aged 13 3/4):

          "I sometime's get so lonely and confused. I've written a poem about it. Maybe you'll understand. 'Why do nice girls hate me?' Why-"
          "Oh, get out you nauseating adolescent! Get out, go on, shoo! Shoo!"

          Excuse me. At the end of the second run-through, my class held a "Werther's Dead" party.

          Returning to the point, what struck me is that the makers of Simoun, and the series itself, are aware of the distance from reality that most of the Sybillae have.


          > For the record, I read it in German and English,remember little about it in either language, remember only the operatic version by Massanet performed by the Met this year with Thomas Hampson in the role of the father, and frankly, have made up most of what I think about it in my head years after reading it. :-)

          Didn't know there was an opera. I'm a loyalist to Faust these days, though that's fairly stereotypical.


          >
          > This a completely valid point. It can be explained by several things. one of course is, denial. The girls were never meant to be in a war, they were trained as priestesses who pray with these vehicles of the gods. the war was started in a state of denial by their government who felt an unwarranted superority because of these vehicles, and ultimately thrust the priestesses into the position of defending their status. But of you asked the theocracy, they probably wouldn't have admitted it was a *war*. just that people who were jealous of them wanted to destroy their perfect way of life.

          I can see how they would want and need to see it that way, but I see it the opposite way. These theocracy types, from what I can recall, just stumbled onto left-behind technology of an earlier civilization. The reason I say that is that they obviously have no clue how the Simoun work & also have a weird superstitious awe of these things. The whole "chariot of the gods" idea makes no sense whatsoever when you consider that almost all these things do is fly around and blow stuff up.

          Argentium's people strike me as basically decent, straight-up types; hard but fair. They want to get hold of the Simoun tech so that their people will stop drowning in pollution - and, remember, it's by no merit of the Theocracy that it has the tech in the first place. This fundamental decency comes through in the way they wage war. I can't remember them taking hostages or using human wave tactics or, for that matter, doing much more than targeting the Simoun, despite the risk that entails. And when the Theocracy get's deservedly trounced, the Argentine people don't do the traditional massacres. They don't even take the precaution of killing of the Choirs, which is pretty big of them considering that the Choirs have been stacking up a thousand casualties a pop.

          Ever since I figured this out & figured out that the series itself is aware of this, it went up hugely in my estimation.

          > Neville made a point when she stood up to the council to basically say - YOU may be conducting a war that YOu started, but we are priestesses who pray. If you force us into the position of fighting YOUR war, you'll loose both us and yourselves. But they didn't listen to her.

          Don't even get me started on that council. They remind me of nothing so much as that collection of clowns in Lhasa who, when they received word that the Chinese Red Army was preparing to invade, told them it was very rude to interrupt the monks during their contemplation picnic or whatever it was. It's hard to have any sympathy for people like that.

          I did rather warm to Neville at that moment - when she finally emerged from her pity-fest in her gilded cage. She showed some real strength of spirit, which you can clearly see at the end, with the conclusion with Aeru.

          Though, and that's the point I was getting at about them having enjoyed total air superiority for so long that they've gotten decadent. I find Neville's bout in her room irritating, (especially as it is on the front line for crying out loud), but I can't really blame her for that, since it's obvious that she's never had any reason to brought face-to-face with the reality of war. Her own father treats it as something she can opt out of. It's not as though she's been brought up in the Spartan or Amhara way.

          So, in retrospect, it's quite impressive to see her learning when she has to do so, especially given the useless Eloi set above her.

          Sorry if this is a little lengthy, it's just something I had thought through, and Yuricon's just about the only place people know what on earth I'm on about.


          >
          > And in Floe's defense - at the beginning, the Sibylla didn't leave the borders of their own country, so they were, really, defending their world from what appeared to be unreasonable and indifensible attacks. Why are doing this - because you have a country that is perceived as perfect and beautiful and if others can't have what you have, if they can't wrest it from you by physical force, then they will be content with destroying it, so no one has it at all.

          I can see why Floe might think that. On the other hand, I really cannot see the Argentines as anything other than basically decent and straight up, kinda like the Tutsis. They fight hard and tough but I don't think we see them pull anything on the scale of what, say, Floe does when she & the others blow a friendly town sky-high. Or, for that matter, the extreme weirdness of the Plumbum fanatics.

          Anyway, the series has gotten me thinking, so I may need the box set to properly go over it.
        • josephglanvill
          ... Duly noted. :) Anyway, this has really got me thinking, so thanks Erica! ... Well, yes and no. What makes _Werther_ a classic is that Goethe is aware of
          Message 4 of 16 , May 11, 2009
            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > > From: thirohk@...
            > > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 07:10:41 +0000
            > > Subject: [Yuricon] Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
            > >
            > > [SPOILER ALERT]
            >
            >
            > I'm adding some spoiler space here
            >
            >
            >
            > Not because I believe there will be many spoilers
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > But because it doesn't hurt to
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > do so
            >

            Duly noted. :) Anyway, this has really got me thinking, so thanks Erica!


            > So *much* of anime can compare to that story, since teenage angst is basically what it's about. the casual existentialism of a youg person with no real goal. A timeless classic.

            Well, yes and no. What makes _Werther_ a classic is that Goethe is aware of what a whiner Werther is. It's a kind of cleansing; Goethe's writing that he's glad he is no longer that person, and you can see it. Whereas so much anime acts like that kind of thing is something to be proud of.

            There's that Blackadder exchange he has with Pitt the Younger (aged 13 3/4):

            "I sometime's get so lonely and confused. I've written a poem about it. Maybe you'll understand. 'Why do nice girls hate me?' Why-"
            "Oh, get out you nauseating adolescent! Get out, go on, shoo! Shoo!"

            Excuse me. At the end of the second run-through, my class held a "Werther's Dead" party.

            Returning to the point, what struck me is that the makers of Simoun, and the series itself, are aware of the distance from reality that most of the Sybillae have.


            > For the record, I read it in German and English,remember little about it in either language, remember only the operatic version by Massanet performed by the Met this year with Thomas Hampson in the role of the father, and frankly, have made up most of what I think about it in my head years after reading it. :-)

            Didn't know there was an opera. I'm a loyalist to Faust these days, though that's fairly stereotypical.


            >
            > This a completely valid point. It can be explained by several things. one of course is, denial. The girls were never meant to be in a war, they were trained as priestesses who pray with these vehicles of the gods. the war was started in a state of denial by their government who felt an unwarranted superority because of these vehicles, and ultimately thrust the priestesses into the position of defending their status. But of you asked the theocracy, they probably wouldn't have admitted it was a *war*. just that people who were jealous of them wanted to destroy their perfect way of life.

            I can see how they would want and need to see it that way, but I see it the opposite way. These theocracy types, from what I can recall, just stumbled onto left-behind technology of an earlier civilization. The reason I say that is that they obviously have no clue how the Simoun work & also have a weird superstitious awe of these things. The whole "chariot of the gods" idea makes no sense whatsoever when you consider that almost all these things do is fly around and blow stuff up.

            Argentium's people strike me as basically decent, straight-up types; hard but fair. They want to get hold of the Simoun tech so that their people will stop drowning in pollution - and, remember, it's by no merit of the Theocracy that it has the tech in the first place. This fundamental decency comes through in the way they wage war. I can't remember them taking hostages or using human wave tactics or, for that matter, doing much more than targeting the Simoun, despite the risk that entails. And when the Theocracy get's deservedly trounced, the Argentine people don't do the traditional massacres. They don't even take the precaution of killing of the Choirs, which is pretty big of them considering that the Choirs have been stacking up a thousand casualties a pop.

            Ever since I figured this out & figured out that the series itself is aware of this, it went up hugely in my estimation.

            > Neville made a point when she stood up to the council to basically say - YOU may be conducting a war that YOu started, but we are priestesses who pray. If you force us into the position of fighting YOUR war, you'll loose both us and yourselves. But they didn't listen to her.

            Don't even get me started on that council. They remind me of nothing so much as that collection of clowns in Lhasa who, when they received word that the Chinese Red Army was preparing to invade, told them it was very rude to interrupt the monks during their contemplation picnic or whatever it was. It's hard to have any sympathy for people like that.

            I did rather warm to Neville at that moment - when she finally emerged from her pity-fest in her gilded cage. She showed some real strength of spirit, which you can clearly see at the end, with the conclusion with Aeru.

            Though, and that's the point I was getting at about them having enjoyed total air superiority for so long that they've gotten decadent. I find Neville's bout in her room irritating, (especially as it is on the front line for crying out loud), but I can't really blame her for that, since it's obvious that she's never had any reason to brought face-to-face with the reality of war. Her own father treats it as something she can opt out of. It's not as though she's been brought up in the Spartan or Amhara way.

            So, in retrospect, it's quite impressive to see her learning when she has to do so, especially given the useless Eloi set above her.

            Sorry if this is a little lengthy, it's just something I had thought through, and Yuricon's just about the only place people know what on earth I'm on about.


            >
            > And in Floe's defense - at the beginning, the Sibylla didn't leave the borders of their own country, so they were, really, defending their world from what appeared to be unreasonable and indifensible attacks. Why are doing this - because you have a country that is perceived as perfect and beautiful and if others can't have what you have, if they can't wrest it from you by physical force, then they will be content with destroying it, so no one has it at all.

            I can see why Floe might think that. On the other hand, I really cannot see the Argentines as anything other than basically decent and straight up, kinda like the Tutsis. They fight hard and tough but I don't think we see them pull anything on the scale of what, say, Floe does when she & the others blow a friendly town sky-high. Or, for that matter, the extreme weirdness of the Plumbum fanatics.

            Anyway, the series has gotten me thinking, so I may need the box set to properly go over it.
          • Rikaishi
            ... Its been a long time since I last saw the series, and annoyingly there doesn t seem to be a region 4 release yet. However I think that the swarms of
            Message 5 of 16 , May 11, 2009
              > Argentium's people strike me as basically decent, straight-up types; hard
              > but fair. They want to get hold of the Simoun tech so that their people
              > will stop drowning in pollution - and, remember, it's by no merit of the
              > Theocracy that it has the tech in the first place. This fundamental decency
              > comes through in the way they wage war. I can't remember them taking
              > hostages or using human wave tactics or, for that matter, doing much more
              > than targeting the Simoun, despite the risk that entails.

              Its been a long time since I last saw the series, and annoyingly there
              doesn't seem to be a region 4 release yet. However I think that the
              swarms of primitive fighters basically count as human wave tactics,
              and then there was the missile attack on Simulacrum's capitol city
              which incurred many civilian casualties. Also, I might be wrong but I
              recall that leveling the friendly town was a result of poor judgment
              and inexperience, not direct orders, and the sibyllae were horrified
              at what they had done. Of course you could argue that allowing
              inexperienced troops to control highly destructive weaponry was a case
              of criminal incompetence.
            • josephglanvill
              Extra Spoiler Space Inspired ... Well, _yes_. I don t recall Floe being too torn up about it, but let s leave that aside for a second. When I thought of human
              Message 6 of 16 , May 12, 2009
                Extra



                Spoiler







                Space




                Inspired


                >
                > Its been a long time since I last saw the series, and annoyingly there
                > doesn't seem to be a region 4 release yet. However I think that the
                > swarms of primitive fighters basically count as human wave tactics,
                > and then there was the missile attack on Simulacrum's capitol city
                > which incurred many civilian casualties. Also, I might be wrong but I
                > recall that leveling the friendly town was a result of poor judgment
                > and inexperience, not direct orders, and the sibyllae were horrified
                > at what they had done. Of course you could argue that allowing
                > inexperienced troops to control highly destructive weaponry was a case
                > of criminal incompetence.
                >


                Well, _yes_. I don't recall Floe being too torn up about it, but let's leave that aside for a second. When I thought of human wave tactics, I was thinking in terms of them using hordes of ground troops, or, again, slaughtering en masse everyone who fell into their hands. I repeat, they didn't even have the choirs whacked when they won, which is exceptionally decent of them.


                What I was getting at was that I initially wasn't too impressed by Simoun because it seemed to be an anime that didn't accept the reality of war. It then dawned on me that this wasn't so; it's an anime about characters who largely don't accept the reality of war, which is very different.
              • Erica Friedman
                ... How about a little spoiler space? Five will get you ten Ten will get you twenty ... Thank you - you know we just *hate* to pick series apart here. :-) ...
                Message 7 of 16 , May 12, 2009
                  > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: thirohk@...
                  > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:15:04 +0000
                  > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
                  >
                  > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman wrote:



                  How about a little spoiler space?



                  Five will get you ten





                  Ten will get you twenty



                  >>
                  >>Anyway, this has really got me thinking, so thanks Erica!

                  Thank you - you know we just *hate* to pick series apart here. :-)

                  >
                  >
                  >> So *much* of anime can compare to that story, since teenage angst is basically what it's about. the casual existentialism of a youg person with no real goal. A timeless classic.
                  >
                  > Well, yes and no. What makes _Werther_ a classic is that Goethe is aware of what a whiner Werther is. It's a kind of cleansing; Goethe's writing that he's glad he is no longer that person, and you can see it. Whereas so much anime acts like that kind of thing is something to be proud of.


                  And after listening to the commentary on the Simoun disks, I'm convinced that the characters in simoun were created with awareness as well (not, perhaps the level of genius Goethe brought to his work, but certainly they were aware what they were doing.)


                  >
                  > There's that Blackadder exchange he has with Pitt the Younger (aged 13 3/4):
                  >
                  > "I sometime's get so lonely and confused. I've written a poem about it. Maybe you'll understand. 'Why do nice girls hate me?' Why-"
                  > "Oh, get out you nauseating adolescent! Get out, go on, shoo! Shoo!"

                  That never fails to make me laugh.



                  > Excuse me. At the end of the second run-through, my class held a "Werther's Dead" party.

                  Understandably so.

                  >
                  > Returning to the point, what struck me is that the makers of Simoun, and the series itself, are aware of the distance from reality that most of the Sybillae have.


                  Yes. Upper-class girls, treated as special their whole lives, because they can pilot a ship in complex shapes on the air. Rank, privilege, status - they have everything, except an appreciation for life.


                  > Didn't know there was an opera. I'm a loyalist to Faust these days, though that's fairly stereotypical.

                  The Met is cranking through all of Massanet's stuff this season, so I've seen Manon (and LFG that I am, immediately thought of "Applause") Faust and Werther.

                  Werther stands out because Hampson is my wife's favorite singer. Which is why I end up watching this at all.


                  > I can see how they would want and need to see it that way, but I see it the opposite way. These theocracy types, from what I can recall, just stumbled onto left-behind technology of an earlier civilization. The reason I say that is that they obviously have no clue how the Simoun work & also have a weird superstitious awe of these things. The whole "chariot of the gods" idea makes no sense whatsoever when you consider that almost all these things do is fly around and blow stuff up.

                  I don't think that this is opposite at all. The fact that the theocracy stumbled upon advanced technology served - in their minds - to make them beloved of the gods. Of *course* they showed no particular merit or understanding. And because they built a cargo cult around these ships, they made it taboo to even try and learn something about them. Thus the "charots of the gods" become too sacred to be interfered with - even as this clueless, elitist society justifies their use as weapons.



                  > Argentium's people strike me as basically decent, straight-up types; hard but fair. They want to get hold of the Simoun tech so that their people will stop drowning in pollution - and, remember, it's by no merit of the Theocracy that it has the tech in the first place. This fundamental decency comes through in the way they wage war. I can't remember them taking hostages or using human wave tactics or, for that matter, doing much more than targeting the Simoun, despite the risk that entails. And when the Theocracy get's deservedly trounced, the Argentine people don't do the traditional massacres. They don't even take the precaution of killing of the Choirs, which is pretty big of them considering that the Choirs have been stacking up
                  a thousand casualties a pop.


                  I'm not entirely sure - that whole thing seemed a tad superficial, too much Gnomes vs Elves to me. Are they decent? We are told that the government decides who becomes male and female, who takes what jobs. They use chemicals to force these decisions on people - and they aren't doing anything to better their own world, except by force as well.

                  People, of course, are always hardworking and decent until somehow they become leaders, when they immediately become corrupt and self-serving.

                  > Don't even get me started on that council. They remind me of nothing so much as that collection of clowns in Lhasa who, when they received word that the Chinese Red Army was preparing to invade, told them it was very rude to interrupt the monks during their contemplation picnic or whatever it was. It's hard to have any sympathy for people like that.

                  Worldview is VERY hard to shift. I recommend reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" about three mental patients who are all convince they are Jesus. When they are introduced to each other, rather than shift their own worldview, they simply point out that the other two are crazy.

                  Much like actual theocracies on this planet - or indeed supposedly secular governments - who point to other countires, bestowing them with the titles like Axis of Evil.


                  > I did rather warm to Neville at that moment - when she finally emerged from her pity-fest in her gilded cage. She showed some real strength of spirit, which you can clearly see at the end, with the conclusion with Aeru.


                  Sadly, she had no leadership equal to her, otherwise, the "war" might have ended differently. Which is why the epilogue with Floef and Vyuraf interested me so much. Like our own Earth-bound countries, the countries in Simoun seemed to have learned nothin from their losses.


                  >
                  > Though, and that's the point I was getting at about them having enjoyed total air superiority for so long that they've gotten decadent.

                  Agreed.



                  > I find Neville's bout in her room irritating, (especially as it is on the front line for crying out loud), but I can't really blame her for that, since it's obvious that she's never had any reason to brought face-to-face with the reality of war. Her own father treats it as something she can opt out of. It's not as though she's been brought up in the Spartan or Amhara way.


                  Agreed.

                  >
                  > So, in retrospect, it's quite impressive to see her learning when she has to do so, especially given the useless Eloi set above her.


                  It took a LOT to shift her from her state of denial and if Aeru hadn't been there, I think her end would have been flaming death as she realized the pointlessness of everything. Because Aeru was there, they had an escape route.

                  >
                  > Sorry if this is a little lengthy, it's just something I had thought through, and Yuricon's just about the only place people know what on earth I'm on about.
                  >

                  As mentioned previously, please feel free. ;)


                  Cheers,

                  Erica

                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                  http://www.yuricon.org
                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
                  http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009
                • Nick Perez
                  what do you mean by spoiler space? ________________________________ From: Erica Friedman To: yuricon@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 12, 2009
                    what do you mean by spoiler space?


                    From: Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...>
                    To: yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 9:36:37 AM
                    Subject: RE: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers


                    > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: thirohk@...
                    > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:15:04 +0000
                    > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
                    >
                    > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman  wrote:



                    How about a little spoiler space?



                    Five will get you ten





                    Ten will get you twenty



                    >>
                    >>Anyway, this has really got me thinking, so thanks Erica!

                    Thank you - you know we just *hate* to pick series apart here. :-)

                    >
                    >
                    >> So *much* of anime can compare to that story, since teenage angst is basically what it's about. the casual existentialism of a youg person with no real goal. A timeless classic.
                    >
                    > Well, yes and no. What makes _Werther_ a classic is that Goethe is aware of what a whiner Werther is. It's a kind of cleansing; Goethe's writing that he's glad he is no longer that person, and you can see it. Whereas so much anime acts like that kind of thing is something to be proud of.


                    And after listening to the commentary on the Simoun disks, I'm convinced that the characters in simoun were created with awareness as well (not, perhaps the level of genius Goethe brought to his work, but certainly they were aware what they were doing.)


                    >
                    > There's that Blackadder exchange he has with Pitt the Younger (aged 13 3/4):
                    >
                    > "I sometime's get so lonely and confused. I've written a poem about it. Maybe you'll understand. 'Why do nice girls hate me?' Why-"
                    > "Oh, get out you nauseating adolescent! Get out, go on, shoo! Shoo!"

                    That never fails to make me laugh.



                    > Excuse me. At the end of the second run-through, my class held a "Werther's Dead" party.

                    Understandably so.

                    >
                    > Returning to the point, what struck me is that the makers of Simoun, and the series itself, are aware of the distance from reality that most of the Sybillae have.


                    Yes. Upper-class girls, treated as special their whole lives, because they can pilot a ship in complex shapes on the air. Rank, privilege, status - they have everything, except an appreciation for life.


                    > Didn't know there was an opera. I'm a loyalist to Faust these days, though that's fairly stereotypical.

                    The Met is cranking through all of Massanet's stuff this season, so I've seen Manon (and LFG that I am, immediately thought of "Applause") Faust and Werther.

                    Werther stands out because Hampson is my wife's favorite singer. Which is why I end up watching this at all.


                    > I can see how they would want and need to see it that way, but I see it the opposite way. These theocracy types, from what I can recall, just stumbled onto left-behind technology of an earlier civilization. The reason I say that is that they obviously have no clue how the Simoun work & also have a weird superstitious awe of these things. The whole "chariot of the gods" idea makes no sense whatsoever when you consider that almost all these things do is fly around and blow stuff up.

                    I don't think that this is opposite at all. The fact that the theocracy stumbled upon advanced technology served - in their minds - to make them beloved of the gods. Of *course* they showed no particular merit or understanding. And because they built a cargo cult around these ships, they made it taboo to even try and learn something about them. Thus the "charots of the gods" become too sacred to be interfered with - even as this clueless, elitist society justifies their use as weapons.



                    > Argentium's people strike me as basically decent, straight-up types; hard but fair. They want to get hold of the Simoun tech so that their people will stop drowning in pollution - and, remember, it's by no merit of the Theocracy that it has the tech in the first place. This fundamental decency comes through in the way they wage war. I can't remember them taking hostages or using human wave tactics or, for that matter, doing much more than targeting the Simoun, despite the risk that entails. And
                    when the Theocracy get's deservedly trounced, the Argentine people don't do the traditional massacres. They don't even take the precaution of killing of the Choirs, which is pretty big of them considering that the Choirs have been stacking up
                    a thousand casualties a pop.


                    I'm not entirely sure - that whole thing seemed a tad superficial, too much Gnomes vs Elves to me. Are they decent? We are told that the government decides who becomes male and female, who takes what jobs. They use chemicals to force these decisions on people - and they aren't doing anything to better their own world, except by force as well.

                    People, of course, are always hardworking and decent until somehow they become leaders, when they immediately become corrupt and self-serving.

                    > Don't even get me started on that council. They remind me of nothing so much as that collection of clowns in Lhasa who, when they received word that the Chinese Red Army was
                    preparing to invade, told them it was very rude to interrupt the monks during their contemplation picnic or whatever it was. It's hard to have any sympathy for people like that.

                    Worldview is VERY hard to shift. I recommend reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" about three mental patients who are all convince they are Jesus. When they are introduced to each other, rather than shift their own worldview, they simply point out that the other two are crazy.

                    Much like actual theocracies on this planet - or indeed supposedly secular governments - who point to other countires, bestowing them with the titles like Axis of Evil.


                    > I did rather warm to Neville at that moment - when she finally emerged from her pity-fest in her gilded cage. She showed some real strength of spirit, which you can clearly see at the end, with the conclusion with Aeru.


                    Sadly, she had no leadership equal to her, otherwise, the "war" might have ended differently. Which is why the epilogue with Floef and Vyuraf interested me so much. Like our own Earth-bound countries, the countries in Simoun seemed to have learned nothin from their losses.


                    >
                    > Though, and that's the point I was getting at about them having enjoyed total air superiority for so long that they've gotten decadent.

                    Agreed.



                    > I find Neville's bout in her room irritating, (especially as it is on the front line for crying out loud), but I can't really blame her for that, since it's obvious that she's never had any reason to brought face-to-face with the reality of war. Her own father treats it as something she can opt out of. It's not as though she's been brought up in the Spartan or Amhara way.


                    Agreed.

                    >
                    > So, in retrospect, it's quite impressive to see her learning when she has to do so, especially given the useless Eloi set above her.


                    It took a LOT to shift her from her state of denial and if Aeru hadn't been there, I think her end would have been flaming death as she realized the pointlessness of everything. Because Aeru was there, they had an escape route.

                    >
                    > Sorry if this is a little lengthy, it's just something I had thought through, and Yuricon's just about the only place people know what on earth I'm on about.
                    >

                    As mentioned previously, please feel free. ;)


                    Cheers,

                    Erica

                    Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                    http://www.yuricon.org
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                  • Adam Jones
                    On Tue, 12 May 2009 12:54:15 -0700 (PDT), Nick Perez ... Leaving a blank space at the top of a message so that people don t inadvertently read plot details or
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 12, 2009
                      On Tue, 12 May 2009 12:54:15 -0700 (PDT), Nick Perez
                      <vanezzania@...> wrote:

                      > what do you mean by spoiler space?

                      Leaving a blank space at the top of a message so that people don't
                      inadvertently read plot details or secrets (spoilers) about a show they
                      may not yet have watched or finished.
                      --
                      Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
                      .oO("what's big iron?" )
                      PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
                    • BlackSkaven
                      ... So the others have every right to take the technology by force? Do you maybe love Brecht - to have the right to take something (from others) because you
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 12, 2009
                        Erica Friedman wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > How about a little spoiler space?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Five will get you ten
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Ten will get you twenty
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        >> These theocracy types, from what I can recall, just stumbled onto left-behind technology of an earlier civilization.

                        So the others have every right to take the technology by force? Do you
                        maybe love Brecht - to have the right to take something (from others)
                        because you (think you) can use it better? The invaders obviously
                        wrecked their countries all by themselves and put their effort into
                        military force instead. Fanatism seems to be so widespread that they
                        even resort to terrorism. Didn't see any sign of democracy either. ;)

                        > I don't think that this is opposite at all. The fact that the theocracy stumbled upon advanced technology served - in their minds - to make them beloved of the gods. Of *course* they showed no particular merit or understanding. And because they built a cargo cult around these ships, they made it taboo to even try and learn something about them. Thus the "charots of the gods" become too sacred to be interfered with - even as this clueless, elitist society justifies their use as weapons.

                        It seems that they don't have many other weapons. They obviously
                        underestimated the envy of their neighbors and overestimated god's blessing.

                        >> They want to get hold of the Simoun tech so that their people will stop drowning in pollution

                        See comments above.

                        > And when the Theocracy get's deservedly trounced, the Argentine people don't do the traditional massacres.

                        We don't see whether or not people are massacred. It would be VERY
                        unrealistic if there wouldn't be widespread rape, murder and pillaging.

                        > They don't even take the precaution of killing of the Choirs, which is pretty big of them considering that the Choirs have been stacking up
                        > a thousand casualties a pop.

                        Ever heard of "Wernher von Braun"? Obviously not ...

                        > They use chemicals to force these decisions on people

                        Did they really decide the people's gender? It seemed that they just
                        forced the people to choose - consciously or subconsciously. A decision
                        that we can't really make in real life - so somehow this whole gender
                        thing feels more like an exotic icing - to add more yuri. ;)

                        > - and they aren't doing anything to better their own world, except by force as well.

                        So they freed the people from the theocracy? If I remember correctly
                        there was another freedom war starting at the end. ;)

                        >> Don't even get me started on that council. They remind me of nothing so much as that collection of clowns in Lhasa who, when they received word that the Chinese Red Army was preparing to invade, told them it was very rude to interrupt the monks during their contemplation picnic or whatever it was.

                        So what should they have done instead - getting slaughtered?

                        > It's hard to have any sympathy for people like that.

                        Well - I bet that the threat of invasion did help to keep the theocracy
                        alive.

                        >>, with the conclusion with Aeru.

                        What do we see? Isn't this just a form of escape/denial?

                        BlackSkaven
                      • josephglanvill
                        My dear Erica, Perhaps you should provide a primer On how to make Spoiler Space Effective ... Well, obviously not. Goethe had the kind of mind that s born
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 13, 2009
                          My dear Erica,




                          Perhaps you should provide a primer




                          On how to make




                          Spoiler Space



                          Effective



                          >
                          > And after listening to the commentary on the Simoun disks, I'm convinced that the characters in simoun were created with awareness as well (not, perhaps the level of genius Goethe brought to his work, but certainly they were aware what they were doing.)

                          Well, obviously not. Goethe had the kind of mind that's born maybe once a century. He was ridiculously intelligent. Yet, when I realized that the creators were aware, things got a great deal more interesting. So I'll be ordering the box-set once my paycheque's in this month.


                          > Yes. Upper-class girls, treated as special their whole lives, because they can pilot a ship in complex shapes on the air. Rank, privilege, status - they have everything, except an appreciation for life.

                          That's a good point.

                          > The Met is cranking through all of Massanet's stuff this season, so I've seen Manon (and LFG that I am, immediately thought of "Applause") Faust and Werther.

                          Tell me it's not the full-length version of Faust.


                          > I don't think that this is opposite at all. The fact that the theocracy stumbled upon advanced technology served - in their minds - to make them beloved of the gods.

                          I meant opposite to the way the Theocracy apparently sees things.


                          > Of *course* they showed no particular merit or understanding. And because they built a cargo cult around these ships, they made it taboo to even try and learn something about them. Thus the "charots of the gods" become too sacred to be interfered with - even as this clueless, elitist society justifies their use as weapons.

                          Indeed. Though I sometimes wonder what the devil that ending is about then...



                          >
                          >
                          > I'm not entirely sure - that whole thing seemed a tad superficial, too much Gnomes vs Elves to me. Are they decent? We are told that the government decides who becomes male and female, who takes what jobs. They use chemicals to force these decisions on people - and they aren't doing anything to better their own world, except by force as well.

                          "Decent", is a relative term I think. Care to imagine what would have happened if the Theocracy had faced THIS guy:

                          http://mysite.verizon.net/respsqwo/crossroad/millenium_major.html

                          Extreme example? Probably; but not that extreme. I've been reading the history of the mongol conquests. There's no question in my mind that any of the Khans - or for that matter, Homer's Akhaians - would not have leveled a few cities just to make a point.

                          As regards their autocracy, that was something else that bothered me. Why do they need chemicals and so forth? It would appear that they don't have a spring of that sort, and if you postulate that they were severed from it because of the Theocracy's weirdness, then there'd be even more justification for Argentium's view. I think the balance of probability is on that side, rather than them being 'denied the sacrament' because of war - if the Theocracy wasn't going to share the Simoun tech, I suspect it wouldn't share the springs. Well, that's just speculation on my part though.

                          > Worldview is VERY hard to shift. I recommend reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" about three mental patients who are all convince they are Jesus. When they are introduced to each other, rather than shift their own worldview, they simply point out that the other two are crazy.

                          I'll give it a look.

                          > Much like actual theocracies on this planet - or indeed supposedly secular governments - who point to other countires, bestowing them with the titles like Axis of Evil.

                          Okay, I am sorry to have to go off topic here, but I won't pass that. I know a little about some of those states. North Korea - the most perfect theocracy ever made - has concentration camps. Concentration camps with gas chambers. In Iran, if you're convicted of homosexuality you can either be killed in a very brutal manner - after the Revolutionary Guard have had their way, if you're a woman - or be forcibly gender reassigned. Evil is the only word for this.

                          Back to topic.

                          > Sadly, she had no leadership equal to her, otherwise, the "war" might have ended differently.

                          It would have been very interesting to follow that


                          > Which is why the epilogue with Floef and Vyuraf interested me so much. Like our own Earth-bound countries, the countries in Simoun seemed to have learned nothin from their losses.

                          I take the sad view that war isn't an aberration, but the human condition. We can reduce it, fight it less, fight it more civilized manner, not have the hideous practices of earlier times, but we can't get rid of it. That's I'm quite impressed by what Argentium doesn't do.

                          A fascinating follow up would be a series of vignettes from the point of view of members of Argentium and Plumbum.


                          > It took a LOT to shift her from her state of denial and if Aeru hadn't been there, I think her end would have been flaming death as she realized the pointlessness of everything. Because Aeru was there, they had an escape route.
                          >

                          Well, Aeru RULES! My favorite character in the series. I really enjoyed that scene where she and Parietta have the mid-air fencing duel.

                          Ta,
                        • josephglanvill
                          ________________ And here ________________We Go ... Hmmm. I should note at the outset that I do resent the tone of condescension and arrogance here; that s
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 13, 2009
                            ________________ And here


                            ________________We Go




                            ___________________Again...




                            >
                            > So the others have every right to take the technology by force? Do you
                            > maybe love Brecht - to have the right to take something (from others)
                            > because you (think you) can use it better? The invaders obviously
                            > wrecked their countries all by themselves and put their effort into
                            > military force instead. Fanatism seems to be so widespread that they
                            > even resort to terrorism. Didn't see any sign of democracy either. ;)

                            Hmmm. I should note at the outset that I do resent the tone of condescension and arrogance here; that's somewhat muscling into my turf ;-) .


                            As a matter of fact, I happen to despise Brecht. The parallel you are trying to construct doesn't hold, I'm afraid. Simulacrum did not manufacture this technology itself. It controls the Simoun by no virtue of their own.

                            Had they earned such power, that would be a different matter, a very different matter. More importantly, it would have fundamentally changed the nature of Simulacrum; they would have traded with Argentium or conquered it or whatever, but they would never have permitted themselves the kind of irresponsible nonsense they do.

                            >
                            > We don't see whether or not people are massacred. It would be VERY
                            > unrealistic if there wouldn't be widespread rape, murder and pillaging.

                            I am sorry to have to be blunt, but that's foolishness. There is no evidence at all for this


                            >
                            > Ever heard of "Wernher von Braun"? Obviously not ...

                            What did I just say about trying to use my own skills against me? Please don't be simple; Wernher von Braun could easily apply his knowledge to the moon shot. The idea that the priestesses would use the Simoun for Argentium is ridiculous; not least because they shortly visit the spring.


                            > So they freed the people from the theocracy? If I remember correctly
                            > there was another freedom war starting at the end. ;)

                            Well, war is the human condition.


                            > So what should they have done instead - getting slaughtered?

                            As I have said before, they should have accepted the reality of war, of the fact that they had _an enemy_, and acted appropriately. If you mean Tibet, though, that is not a discussion for here; if you want, I'll send you some articles on the subject.
                          • Erica Friedman
                            ... I have, in fact, written a basic guide to spoiler space several times here - most recently, a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 13, 2009
                              > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: thirohk@...
                              > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:58:44 +0000
                              > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
                              >
                              > My dear Erica,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Perhaps you should provide a primer
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On how to make
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Spoiler Space
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Effective
                              >


                              I have, in fact, written a basic guide to spoiler space several times here - most recently, a few weeks ago.

                              Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is only finding ancient posts today and I am far too lazy to bother looking for it manually. :-)

                              >
                              > Well, obviously not. Goethe had the kind of mind that's born maybe once a century. He was ridiculously intelligent. Yet, when I realized that the creators were aware, things got a great deal more interesting. So I'll be ordering the box-set once my paycheque's in this month.

                              A wise decision, I assure you. when i realized that the holes in the story, the inconsistencies, the changes of worldview were intentional, it set the series above many others for me. It takes an artist to leave things out.

                              >
                              >> Yes. Upper-class girls, treated as special their whole lives, because they can pilot a ship in complex shapes on the air. Rank, privilege, status - they have everything, except an appreciation for life.
                              >
                              > That's a good point.

                              If you're going to agree with me, we might as well not have this conversation. ;-)

                              >
                              >> The Met is cranking through all of Massanet's stuff this season, so I've seen Manon (and LFG that I am, immediately thought of "Applause") Faust and Werther.
                              >
                              > Tell me it's not the full-length version of Faust.


                              I have no idea. I don't go to the Opera, I sit here at home and allow Great Performances to be the background to my Sunday chores. I never notice the time.


                              >
                              >> I don't think that this is opposite at all. The fact that the theocracy stumbled upon advanced technology served - in their minds - to make them beloved of the gods.
                              >
                              > I meant opposite to the way the Theocracy apparently sees things.

                              I'm still not sure that they do see things opposite. A gift from the gods, because we are the worthy ones, is how I think they see it.



                              >> Of *course* they showed no particular merit or understanding. And because they built a cargo cult around these ships, they made it taboo to even try and learn something about them. Thus the "charots of the gods" become too sacred to be interfered with - even as this clueless, elitist society justifies their use as weapons.
                              >
                              > Indeed. Though I sometimes wonder what the devil that ending is about then...

                              Because they had learned one thing - about the Emerald remersion.

                              Makes me wonder if the Simoun aren't more like a virus, rather than a technology, now.



                              > Extreme example? Probably; but not that extreme. I've been reading the history of the mongol conquests. There's no question in my mind that any of the Khans - or for that matter, Homer's Akhaians - would not have leveled a few cities just to make a point.

                              This was not a real war, it's true. It was a toy way, like the Gundam wars. fought way above the heads of the people and their losses are peripheral to the story.


                              > As regards their autocracy, that was something else that bothered me. Why do they need chemicals and so forth? It would appear that they don't have a spring of that sort, and if you postulate that they were severed from it because of the Theocracy's weirdness, then there'd be even more justification for Argentium's view. I think the balance of probability is on that side, rather than them being 'denied the sacrament' because of war - if the Theocracy wasn't going to share the Simoun tech, I suspect it wouldn't share the springs. Well, that's just speculation on my part though.

                              No explanation of why they need (or whether they need) chemicals is made. I think we are not meant to see them as "decent" at all, but as filthy, technology based enemies and no more. when the gas mask is removed, we learn that their lives are horrid and miserable. We don't know if they even know about the spring. all we know is that they see the Simoun as the key to something better.



                              >> Much like actual theocracies on this planet - or indeed supposedly secular governments - who point to other countires, bestowing them with the titles like Axis of Evil.
                              >
                              > Okay, I am sorry to have to go off topic here, but I won't pass that.

                              I'm not arguing that some countries are not evil - just that no country has *always* been and *always* will be so. In order to hate the enemy properly, we have to dehumanize them. I won't finish my thought here, since there are entirely off topic, but if you'd like to know the en of this paragraph, email me privately. :-)



                              >> Which is why the epilogue with Floef and Vyuraf interested me so much. Like our own Earth-bound countries, the countries in Simoun seemed to have learned nothin from their losses.
                              >
                              > I take the sad view that war isn't an aberration, but the human condition. We can reduce it, fight it less, fight it more civilized manner, not have the hideous practices of earlier times, but we can't get rid of it. That's I'm quite impressed by what Argentium doesn't do.

                              I agree with this. there's been no end to war happening somewhere, sometime, so I do think it's time to stop thinking of it as a necessary evil and consider it more like a destructive hobby. Again, off-topic.

                              >
                              > A fascinating follow up would be a series of vignettes from the point of view of members of Argentium and Plumbum.

                              I wouldn't think so, since, like those watching shakespeare's play, we most enjoy watching the fall of the mighty. :-)


                              >
                              >> It took a LOT to shift her from her state of denial and if Aeru hadn't been there, I think her end would have been flaming death as she realized the pointlessness of everything. Because Aeru was there, they had an escape route.

                              >
                              > Well, Aeru RULES! My favorite character in the series. I really enjoyed that scene where she and Parietta have the mid-air fencing duel.

                              My favorite character was Yun. Her choice, of all of their's interested me most.

                              Cheers,

                              Erica

                              Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
                              http://okazu.blogspot.com

                              _________________________________________________________________
                              Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
                              http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009
                            • BlackSkaven
                              ... So - this gives others the right to take the technology by force then? ... Makes me wonder why you despise Brecht - could only be his style to tell his
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 13, 2009
                                josephglanvill wrote:

                                > ________________ And here
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________We Go
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ___________________Again...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > As a matter of fact, I happen to despise Brecht. The parallel you are trying to construct doesn't hold, I'm afraid.
                                >
                                > Simulacrum did not manufacture this technology itself. It controls the Simoun by no virtue of their own.

                                So - this gives others the right to take the technology by force then?

                                > Had they earned such power, that would be a different matter, a very different matter.

                                Makes me wonder why you despise Brecht - could only be his style to
                                'tell' his stories then.

                                > More importantly, it would have fundamentally changed the nature of Simulacrum; they would have traded with Argentium or conquered it or whatever,

                                That's just not their kind of society. Makes me wonder how the other
                                countries deal with gender. I don't remember they really say something
                                about this.

                                >> We don't see whether or not people are massacred. It would be VERY
                                >> unrealistic if there wouldn't be widespread rape, murder and pillaging.
                                >
                                > I am sorry to have to be blunt, but that's foolishness. There is no evidence at all for this

                                You just assume the others are decent, because it's not dealt with in
                                Simoun. What's so honorable about using negotations for sabotage for
                                example? I guess the cause excuses anything?

                                >> Ever heard of "Wernher von Braun"? Obviously not ...
                                >
                                > The idea that the priestesses would use the Simoun for Argentium is ridiculous; not least because they shortly visit the spring.

                                So everybody can fly a Simoun? Beats me ...

                                >> So what should they have done instead - getting slaughtered?
                                >
                                > As I have said before, they should have accepted the reality of war, of the fact that they had _an enemy_, and acted appropriately. If you mean Tibet, though, that is not a discussion for here; if you want, I'll send you some articles on the subject.

                                <irony> Yeah - and it's the woman's fault if she's being raped ... </irony>

                                BlackSkaven
                              • josephglanvill
                                Let s see if this works
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 14, 2009
                                  Let's see if this works ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                  > Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is only finding ancient posts today and I am far too lazy to bother looking for it manually. :-)

                                  Well, I'm experimenting away at the moment.


                                  > If you're going to agree with me, we might as well not have this conversation. ;-)

                                  Well, you had been polite enough to mention when you agreed with me, so I thought I should reply in kind.

                                  > I have no idea. I don't go to the Opera, I sit here at home and allow Great Performances to be the background to my Sunday chores. I never notice the time.

                                  Not the full length version then: it's twenty-one hours long.

                                  >
                                  > Because they had learned one thing - about the Emerald remersion.
                                  >
                                  > Makes me wonder if the Simoun aren't more like a virus, rather than a technology, now.

                                  Could you expand on that? I'm not sure I follow.


                                  > This was not a real war, it's true. It was a toy way, like the Gundam wars. fought way above the heads of the people and their losses are peripheral to the story.

                                  I don't know Gundam, so I'll have to take your word on that.

                                  Hmmm... If anyone ever does a good, anime treatment of one of the Khans (Ghenghis or Hulagu would by my preference), I'd be very happy.


                                  > No explanation of why they need (or whether they need) chemicals is made. I think we are not meant to see them as "decent" at all, but as filthy, technology based enemies and no more. when the gas mask is removed, we learn that their lives are horrid and miserable. We don't know if they even know about the spring. all we know is that they see the Simoun as the key to something better.

                                  That's certainly a point of view, but I see it the opposite way, that Argentium's technology is so toxic because they've had to develop it all on their own and didn't just get it handed to them. Anyway, a sign of something good is that you can view it many ways.

                                  > I'm not arguing that some countries are not evil - just that no country has *always* been and *always* will be so. In order to hate the enemy properly, we have to dehumanize them. I won't finish my thought here, since there are entirely off topic, but if you'd like to know the en of this paragraph, email me privately. :-)

                                  Ah'll take care of it.


                                  >
                                  > I agree with this. there's been no end to war happening somewhere, sometime, so I do think it's time to stop thinking of it as a necessary evil and consider it more like a destructive hobby. Again, off-topic.

                                  Didn't mean it to be; if the point is that the choirs won't accept the reality of war, then the eternal existence of the same is a salient point. Or something.

                                  > I wouldn't think so, since, like those watching shakespeare's play, we most enjoy watching the fall of the mighty. :-)

                                  Not really. I'd just like to explore the whole conflict from the hard-bitten view of the Argentites, or the weird religious society of Plumbum.

                                  > My favorite character was Yun. Her choice, of all of their's interested me most.

                                  Have to ask this then: Do you agree that Yun is "Kyon, the Simoun version"? :-)
                                • Erica Friedman
                                  ... In short - physical space for folks reading the list on their email and a sentence or two for yahoogroups propensity to summarize only new text, for folks
                                  Message 16 of 16 , May 14, 2009
                                    ----------------------------------------
                                    > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: thirohk@...
                                    > Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:13:18 +0000
                                    > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Simoun grumble resolved - some spoilers
                                    >
                                    > Let's see if this works ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> Unfortunately, the Y!groups search engine is only finding ancient posts today and I am far too lazy to bother looking for it manually. :-)
                                    >
                                    > Well, I'm experimenting away at the moment.



                                    In short - physical space for folks reading the list on their email and a sentence or two for yahoogroups' propensity to summarize only new text, for folks getting the ML on the web.



                                    >
                                    >> This was not a real war, it's true. It was a toy way, like the Gundam wars. fought way above the heads of the people and their losses are peripheral to the story.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know Gundam, so I'll have to take your word on that.


                                    You don't need to, really. Any show with mecha tends to be about the pilots of the mecha and in most of these shows, they fight on space, or stories above any humans. Buildings crushed beneath their feet - there are few shows (although they do exist) that deal with the people in those buildings.

                                    I think it was Sally in gundam Wing who lambasted the elite fighters for fighting so far about the eads of the people that they had no idea of the damage they caused.

                                    >> No explanation of why they need (or whether they need) chemicals is made. I think we are not meant to see them as "decent" at all, but as filthy, technology based enemies and no more. when the gas mask is removed, we learn that their lives are horrid and miserable. We don't know if they even know about the spring. all we know is that they see the Simoun as the key to something better.
                                    >
                                    > That's certainly a point of view, but I see it the opposite way, that Argentium's technology is so toxic because they've had to develop it all on their own and didn't just get it handed to them. Anyway, a sign of something good is that you can view it many ways.


                                    I don't disagree - but that's *exactly* the point. The theocracy sees this as "proof" of their superiority. God's favor and all.

                                    >> My favorite character was Yun. Her choice, of all of their's interested me most.
                                    >
                                    > Have to ask this then: Do you agree that Yun is "Kyon, the Simoun version"? :-)

                                    Honestly, I don't see any point of comparison between Kyon and yun. She's more a Haruhi by choice, if you must force an analogy at all. But it seems a really weird analogy to me.


                                    Cheers,

                                    Erica

                                    Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                                    http://www.yuricon.org

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