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Maria-sama = porn for loners?

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  • Jen
    I ve trying to get my head around why I never truly got into this series. I stopped after the Blue Umbrella episode (don t know how it ends) because I thought
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 2 11:48 PM
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      I've trying to get my head around why I never truly got into this series. I stopped after the Blue Umbrella episode (don't know how it ends) because I thought I just dislike DRAMA when it's serious/sad, not comedic. I think I've figured it out: It's loner porn.

      Well, not exactly... but I'll try and explain it. I'll likely fail, but it's swirling in my head, and on the occasional knock, or when some vintage clock tolls in Aruba, it makes sense.


      Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)

      Now, to solve the problem means breaking down the walls of "maturity/professionalism" you've built around yourself, and making friends with those fun loving people around you... but that takes effort. Wouldn't it be easier to simply read a book all by your lonesome during these friendless lunches where the author makes people like you look like a prize?


      They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite. This girl is open on all things, makes friends easily and has so many, is often loud and considered "undignified" by the loner who looks down on such things. And the Genki Girl sees the loner, and views her as supremely wonderful and makes all attempts to "win" her company. Oh, isn't that such a nice feeling for the friendless yet "mature" reader: a book that says "people like you are a prize, here's issue after issue of someone trying to win your affection".

      Now you've got the Rapunzel syndrome: why tie your hair up, lift your damn dress and climb down the tower and rescue your own damn self when you can just sit back and watch a prince do all the work for you? Why do the scary work of learning to talk to people, move out of your (once involuntary yet now completely voluntary) comfort zone of loneliness and do things you wouldn't want to do and spend time with people and do things they enjoy and eventually have fun and have a social life, when you can just find a quiet spot and kill more time by reading a book by yourself that's just page after page of one sentence: "You are somebody's fetish"?

      Marimite, Hayate X Blade... any series where the (usually) tall older loner girl is beset by a lil' urchin who spends day and night thinking of Loner Girl, and engages in numerous activities to befriend her, often resulting in annoyance. And when finally Loner Girl deigns to reciprocate all this vast time/effort sapent by Genki Girl with... a smile or something... it's all "Happy Ending, Hooray for Character Development!"

      I don't see any development I respect. She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship applications. If she started submitting her own, and taking tenuous steps to befriend OTHER girls, then yes, I'd see a cold exterior cracked. But no, she just permitted someone who thinks she's perfection the honour of her company. Gee, that must be sooo hard. And so hard for girls like her to read about. Now that's a fantasy fiction that'll leave you satisfied.

      ... and yet, despite all this, I hope I.M's Nobue Ito never changes. And just like that, my theory of "why didn't I stick with MariMite" is destroyed. Maybe I just prefer yuri when it's comedic/entertaining. Maybe I'm having issues with loving Hayate X Blade, despite finding Ayana Mudō in no way likeable.


      Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it? The realisation? Kinda sorta? Am I making ANY sense? If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong. And I can live with that. ^__^
    • Blah Blahn
      I think you ve got the series as wrong as you can get. Now this is coming from the perspective of a person who reads the manga, who watches the anime, who
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 3 12:21 AM
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        I think you've got the series as wrong as you can get. Now this is coming from the perspective of a person who reads the manga, who watches the anime, who reads the novels in Japanese and translates them, so you should be expecting some bias here. But I'll try to share what makes me go "squee!" about Marimite, and maybe we can get some good thoughts across to each other, like.

        >Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)

        Firstly, I'd like to reiterate a point that Erica had brought up in a previous Marimite-related post on the ML. You can't really watch/read Marimite from the perspective of yourself, identifying with a character. Marimite is one of those things where you have to understand the character in her circumstances, and in her situation. That being said, no character in Marimite ever stays static. The "loner" character role you're building (for I guess Sachiko?) stays with Sachiko for only a while. Throughout the course of the series, we see Sachiko grow and change. In fact, the later, more experienced Sachiko is anything but the loner girl. But watching Marimite is watching Sachiko, come into school as the loner girl, and watching her become the adult who overcomes the loner girl, as I suspect some of us non-anime-characters do in our own lives.

        >They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite.  This girl is open on all things, makes friends easily and has so many, is often loud and considered "undignified" by the loner who looks down on such things.

        Again I'm not really sure who the "Genki Girl" is, but I'll assume it's Yumi. Yumi might seem like the Genki Girl, but she's far from it. In the beginning of the Marimite anime, she comes off as skittish and overly-meek -- she shies away from Sachiko, and the Yamayurikai. If you've read the novels, you *know* that reading the first novel from Yumi's perspective is seeing the world through the lenses of a girl who thinks of herself as not worthy, and overly mundane. But again the best part of Marimite is to see Yumi grow from the shy, simple girl in the corner to a more assertive, robust, mature woman (or at least, older girl). It's about seeing the change.

        >Now you've got the Rapunzel syndrome: why tie your hair up, lift your damn dress and climb down the tower and rescue your own damn self when you can just sit back and watch a prince do all the work for you?

        I don't know who "Rapunzel" is, but I think you mean Sei. Sei, too changes. In the beginning of season 1, she seems like an over-jovial prankster, and then we find out about what happened to her, where we see Sei in the midst of Rapunzel syndrome. We can just compare the two Seis, and see that definite character growth has happened. Later shots of Sei in college show more changes.

        >I don't see any development I respect.  She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship applications.

        Sei was a good example of development I think. Shimako changes quite perceptibly when she finds Noriko. The other characters change too, just at different speeds.

        >Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it?  The realisation?  Kinda sorta?  Am I making ANY sense?  If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong.  And I can live with that.  ^__^

        What I like most about Marimite is that, it's just like a little crucible of characters. Put a bunch of people, with different pasts, grudges, likes, and dislikes, and show their development through the adolescent years. The first years act like 15 and 16 year olds do, while the third years act like girls who are ready to go to college, and the snapshots of Sei and Youko we see from college give us a glimpse of even older characters. When watching Marimite, you can't file every character away into the original role they carve out for themselves, you have to watch the characters build their way out of their original roles to become completely different things, and see the experiences that change them. And this was a nice rant to reply to. A reply to a Marimite thread is a lot of fun after coming back from a 4 hour exam, heh.
      • Erica Friedman
        ... Almsot all anime and manga is about an essentially avergae person surrounded by extraodinary individuals and/or thrust into an extraordinary situation.
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 3 5:30 AM
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          ----------------------------------------
          > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          > From: puni@...
          > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 06:48:35 +0000
          > Subject: [Yuricon] Maria-sama = porn for loners?

          >
          > Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)


          Almsot all anime and manga is about an essentially avergae person surrounded by extraodinary individuals and/or thrust into an extraordinary situation. This is a technique called "masking" and it allows the greatest possible range of people to identify with the character.

          >
          > They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite.

          This is Yuri trope that was established in the early 20th century and carried along from the very first "Yuri" manga "Shiroi Heya no Futari." You see it repeated endlessly in manga, from Chikane and Himiko to Hatsukoai Shimai. ;-)

          Cheers,
          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org

          Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net

          The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com
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        • Erica Friedman
          ... I m with Sukoshi, I m sorry to say. I think you ve mapped the characters badly, because you are trying to force them into roles from your perpective. There
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 3 5:42 AM
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            > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > From: Blarghmania@...
            > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 02:21:09 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Maria-sama = porn for loners?
            >
            >>>I don't see any development I respect. She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship
            >
            >>Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it? The realisation? Kinda sorta? Am I making ANY sense? If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong. And I can live with that. ^__^


            I'm with Sukoshi, I'm sorry to say. I think you've mapped the characters badly, because you are trying to force them into roles from your perpective.

            There is no characters in Marimite that doesn't grow and chage a lot through the series.

            What I'm seeing (in comments here and on Okazu) is simply that a lot of fans made their decisions about who everyone was in the first few episodes and, as the series unwound those appearances, they really are faced with having to either re-think their ideas or dislike the characters. Since admitting we are wrong, or being flexible in our personal likes and dislikes is incredibly hard, it's plain easier to say, "I don't get it."

            And, after all, this is only entertainment. if you don't find it entertaining, then that's okay, too. :-)
            >
            >
            > When watching Marimite, you can't file every character away into the original role they carve out for themselves, you have to watch the characters build their way out of their original roles to become completely different things, and see the experiences that change them.

            I think Sukoshi nails it here.

            Most fans seem to have completely missed the joke Konno sets up in the first season - every character is exactly NOT what they appear to be. Yumi is hardly meek - she stands up to Sachiko. Sachiko is not perfect, she's really quite fragule. Shimako is not what anyone thinks, but we really don't lear all about it to one of the last novels, Youko is competent and leader-y, but she has to work twice as hard as Eriko and Sei to do it, and she wants to be loved. Sei seems playful and goofy, but she's really deeply sensitive, with a striking backstore. Eriko appears flaky, but she's actually incredibly competent at anything and is therefore always looking for a challenge. Yoshino appears to be meek and mild, but has the heart (and family name) of a samurai and rei appears to be boyish, but is quite feminine.

            As the series goes on - particularly in Season 3 - we see Yumi start to leave her pupa shell and become the person she really is, which doesn't at all fit into your boxes. :-)

            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org

            Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net

            The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com



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          • lynmarenjensen
            There s another reason people in real life are loners. What about the office (or school, for that matter) where no one else is likable or fun-loving? If your
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 3 10:44 AM
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              There's another reason people in real life are loners. What about the office (or school, for that matter) where no one else is likable or fun-loving? If your choice is to be with unlikable losers or be alone, what's wrong with being a loner?
              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@...> wrote:
              >
              > I've trying to get my head around why I never truly got into this series. I stopped after the Blue Umbrella episode (don't know how it ends) because I thought I just dislike DRAMA when it's serious/sad, not comedic. I think I've figured it out: It's loner porn.
              >
              > Well, not exactly... but I'll try and explain it. I'll likely fail, but it's swirling in my head, and on the occasional knock, or when some vintage clock tolls in Aruba, it makes sense.
              >
              >
              > Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)
              >
              > Now, to solve the problem means breaking down the walls of "maturity/professionalism" you've built around yourself, and making friends with those fun loving people around you... but that takes effort. Wouldn't it be easier to simply read a book all by your lonesome during these friendless lunches where the author makes people like you look like a prize?
              >
              >
              > They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite. This girl is open on all things, makes friends easily and has so many, is often loud and considered "undignified" by the loner who looks down on such things. And the Genki Girl sees the loner, and views her as supremely wonderful and makes all attempts to "win" her company. Oh, isn't that such a nice feeling for the friendless yet "mature" reader: a book that says "people like you are a prize, here's issue after issue of someone trying to win your affection".
              >
              > Now you've got the Rapunzel syndrome: why tie your hair up, lift your damn dress and climb down the tower and rescue your own damn self when you can just sit back and watch a prince do all the work for you? Why do the scary work of learning to talk to people, move out of your (once involuntary yet now completely voluntary) comfort zone of loneliness and do things you wouldn't want to do and spend time with people and do things they enjoy and eventually have fun and have a social life, when you can just find a quiet spot and kill more time by reading a book by yourself that's just page after page of one sentence: "You are somebody's fetish"?
              >
              > Marimite, Hayate X Blade... any series where the (usually) tall older loner girl is beset by a lil' urchin who spends day and night thinking of Loner Girl, and engages in numerous activities to befriend her, often resulting in annoyance. And when finally Loner Girl deigns to reciprocate all this vast time/effort sapent by Genki Girl with... a smile or something... it's all "Happy Ending, Hooray for Character Development!"
              >
              > I don't see any development I respect. She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship applications. If she started submitting her own, and taking tenuous steps to befriend OTHER girls, then yes, I'd see a cold exterior cracked. But no, she just permitted someone who thinks she's perfection the honour of her company. Gee, that must be sooo hard. And so hard for girls like her to read about. Now that's a fantasy fiction that'll leave you satisfied.
              >
              > ... and yet, despite all this, I hope I.M's Nobue Ito never changes. And just like that, my theory of "why didn't I stick with MariMite" is destroyed. Maybe I just prefer yuri when it's comedic/entertaining. Maybe I'm having issues with loving Hayate X Blade, despite finding Ayana Mudō in no way likeable.
              >
              >
              > Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it? The realisation? Kinda sorta? Am I making ANY sense? If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong. And I can live with that. ^__^
              >
            • Jamie Wells
              There s another reason people in real life are loners. What about the office (or school, for that matter) where no one else is likable or fun-loving? If your
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 3 12:04 PM
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                There's another reason people in real life are loners. What about the office (or school, for that matter) where no one else is likable or fun-loving? If your choice is to be with unlikable losers or be alone, what's wrong with being a loner?

                I don't even think its necessarily that.  If you're born and raised in the United States, there's a good chance you were raised to think, act, and be independent.  Relying on others and living in large groups of people just isn't the American way (I'm being over-generalizing to make a point).

                Many people in the United States could easily be called loners, even though its just a way of life. 

                And as was said in the first reply to this:

                Much of how a person interprets a series is often based on their own personal identity and background.  We like to be able to identify with characters because it helps us relate to the story.  If you can't relate, you probably won't like it.

                But, one person's junk, is another person's treasure.

                --- On Fri, 4/3/09, lynmarenjensen <lynmarenjensen@...> wrote:
                From: lynmarenjensen <lynmarenjensen@...>
                Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?
                To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 1:44 PM

                There's another reason people in real life are loners. What about the office (or school, for that matter) where no one else is likable or fun-loving? If your choice is to be with unlikable losers or be alone, what's wrong with being a loner?
                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups .com, "Jen" <puni@...> wrote:
                >
                > I've trying to get my head around why I never truly got into this series. I stopped after the Blue Umbrella episode (don't know how it ends) because I thought I just dislike DRAMA when it's serious/sad, not comedic. I think I've figured it out: It's loner porn.
                >
                > Well, not exactly... but I'll try and explain it. I'll likely fail, but it's swirling in my head, and on the occasional knock, or when some vintage clock tolls in Aruba, it makes sense.
                >
                >
                > Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)
                >
                > Now, to solve the problem means breaking down the walls of "maturity/professio nalism" you've built around yourself, and making friends with those fun loving people around you... but that takes effort. Wouldn't it be easier to simply read a book all by your lonesome during these friendless lunches where the author makes people like you look like a prize?
                >
                >
                > They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite. This girl is open on all things, makes friends easily and has so many, is often loud and considered "undignified" by the loner who looks down on such things. And the Genki Girl sees the loner, and views her as supremely wonderful and makes all attempts to "win" her company. Oh, isn't that such a nice feeling for the friendless yet "mature" reader: a book that says "people like you are a prize, here's issue after issue of someone trying to win your affection".
                >
                > Now you've got the Rapunzel syndrome: why tie your hair up, lift your damn dress and climb down the tower and rescue your own damn self when you can just sit back and watch a prince do all the work for you? Why do the scary work of learning to talk to people, move out of your (once involuntary yet now completely voluntary) comfort zone of loneliness and do things you wouldn't want to do and spend time with people and do things they enjoy and eventually have fun and have a social life, when you can just find a quiet spot and kill more time by reading a book by yourself that's just page after page of one sentence: "You are somebody's fetish"?
                >
                > Marimite, Hayate X Blade... any series where the (usually) tall older loner girl is beset by a lil' urchin who spends day and night thinking of Loner Girl, and engages in numerous activities to befriend her, often resulting in annoyance. And when finally Loner Girl deigns to reciprocate all this vast time/effort sapent by Genki Girl with... a smile or something... it's all "Happy Ending, Hooray for Character Development! "
                >
                > I don't see any development I respect. She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship applications. If she started submitting her own, and taking tenuous steps to befriend OTHER girls, then yes, I'd see a cold exterior cracked. But no, she just permitted someone who thinks she's perfection the honour of her company. Gee, that must be sooo hard. And so hard for girls like her to read about. Now that's a fantasy fiction that'll leave you satisfied.
                >
                > ... and yet, despite all this, I hope I.M's Nobue Ito never changes. And just like that, my theory of "why didn't I stick with MariMite" is destroyed. Maybe I just prefer yuri when it's comedic/entertainin g. Maybe I'm having issues with loving Hayate X Blade, despite finding Ayana Mudō in no way likeable.
                >
                >
                > Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it? The realisation? Kinda sorta? Am I making ANY sense? If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong. And I can live with that. ^__^
                >


              • Steve Shea
                Jen, I think you hit the nail on the head, at least for some of the yuri out there. There are also a lot of sempais cruising for impressionable, younger
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 3 1:06 PM
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                  Jen,

                  I think you hit the nail on the head, at least for some of the yuri out there. There are also a lot of sempais cruising for impressionable, younger students, which is a completely different dynamic.

                  I'm a big fan of Morinaga Milk's "Girl Friends," in which a bookish, serious girl is befriended by the outgoing, stylish girl who (spoiler alert - ch. 20) it is revealed, has admired her for some time.

                  Drat, and I thought it was soooo original.

                  Actually, Morinaga breaks from aspects of your analysis, but I think those are exceptions that prove the rule.

                  Not having read earlier responses, I'm probably sticking my foot in my mouth, but thanks for the really interesting post.

                  -Steve


                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I've trying to get my head around why I never truly got into this series. I stopped after the Blue Umbrella episode (don't know how it ends) because I thought I just dislike DRAMA when it's serious/sad, not comedic. I think I've figured it out: It's loner porn.
                  >
                  > Well, not exactly... but I'll try and explain it. I'll likely fail, but it's swirling in my head, and on the occasional knock, or when some vintage clock tolls in Aruba, it makes sense.
                  >
                  >
                  > Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)
                  >
                  > Now, to solve the problem means breaking down the walls of "maturity/professionalism" you've built around yourself, and making friends with those fun loving people around you... but that takes effort. Wouldn't it be easier to simply read a book all by your lonesome during these friendless lunches where the author makes people like you look like a prize?
                  >
                  >
                  > They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite. This girl is open on all things, makes friends easily and has so many, is often loud and considered "undignified" by the loner who looks down on such things. And the Genki Girl sees the loner, and views her as supremely wonderful and makes all attempts to "win" her company. Oh, isn't that such a nice feeling for the friendless yet "mature" reader: a book that says "people like you are a prize, here's issue after issue of someone trying to win your affection".
                  >
                  > Now you've got the Rapunzel syndrome: why tie your hair up, lift your damn dress and climb down the tower and rescue your own damn self when you can just sit back and watch a prince do all the work for you? Why do the scary work of learning to talk to people, move out of your (once involuntary yet now completely voluntary) comfort zone of loneliness and do things you wouldn't want to do and spend time with people and do things they enjoy and eventually have fun and have a social life, when you can just find a quiet spot and kill more time by reading a book by yourself that's just page after page of one sentence: "You are somebody's fetish"?
                  >
                  > Marimite, Hayate X Blade... any series where the (usually) tall older loner girl is beset by a lil' urchin who spends day and night thinking of Loner Girl, and engages in numerous activities to befriend her, often resulting in annoyance. And when finally Loner Girl deigns to reciprocate all this vast time/effort sapent by Genki Girl with... a smile or something... it's all "Happy Ending, Hooray for Character Development!"
                  >
                  > I don't see any development I respect. She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship applications. If she started submitting her own, and taking tenuous steps to befriend OTHER girls, then yes, I'd see a cold exterior cracked. But no, she just permitted someone who thinks she's perfection the honour of her company. Gee, that must be sooo hard. And so hard for girls like her to read about. Now that's a fantasy fiction that'll leave you satisfied.
                  >
                  > ... and yet, despite all this, I hope I.M's Nobue Ito never changes. And just like that, my theory of "why didn't I stick with MariMite" is destroyed. Maybe I just prefer yuri when it's comedic/entertaining. Maybe I'm having issues with loving Hayate X Blade, despite finding Ayana Mudō in no way likeable.
                  >
                  >
                  > Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it? The realisation? Kinda sorta? Am I making ANY sense? If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong. And I can live with that. ^__^
                  >
                • Erica Friedman
                  ... Steve (an any other new folks) - It is not usually appreciated when people post spoilers. That *spoils* the story for them, hence the name. Saying that
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 3 2:33 PM
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                    > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: on_message@...
                    > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:06:32 +0000
                    > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?

                    Steve (an any other new folks) -

                    It is not usually appreciated when people post spoilers. That *spoils* the story for them, hence the name.

                    Saying that you're posting a spoiler, then jumping right into it does not give people a chance to *not* see the spoiler if they want.

                    This is why "Spoiler Space" exists.


                    Most people use actually blank lines, like this:








                    In addition, Yahoogroups only recognizes new text in an email, so blank lines do not show up.

                    You can use many lines with little text:

                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .


                    Like that, only many more. Or, as I do, you can use a number of blank lines, punctuated by words to fll up space for Y!groups like this:



                    This




                    Is



                    Spoiler




                    Space





                    To




                    Keep




                    Unwanted




                    Eyes




                    Away



                    ****


                    In any case, please do not post spoilers without spoiler space, because you will make people unhappy. It's bad list etiquette. Thanks.





                    Cheers,

                    Erica

                    Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                    http://www.yuricon.org

                    Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

                    "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net

                    The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Jen
                    ... I think that might be another reason why people tend to wait for a series to finish until going out and start buying it (lamented in a not so long ago
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 3 5:14 PM
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                      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What I'm seeing... is simply that a lot of fans made their decisions about who everyone was in the first few episodes

                      I think that might be another reason why people tend to wait for a series to finish until going out and start buying it (lamented in a not so long ago Okazu entry). They like that not-exactly-spoiler reassurance that what they see in the first season/two seasons are not who the characters are and how they remain ("like these people or don't; your choice"), and that yes, they do change and grow. Otherwise, the viewer goes ahead and spends money/time on a series, swallow any dislikes and tells themselves the characters will change and grow *eventually*, and they just need to have faith and keep handing over the cash and buy more: thou shall be rewarded. Trust.

                      ... only to see that no, not enough people watched the series to merit further local releases (or in western TV's case, not enough ratings and the series is cancelled), and all that time and money spent on this series and these characters and all your faith that character development happens and things get better was all for nothing. Cosnumers of fictional stories may for the most part hate spoilers, but reviewers who know the story from it's start to conclusion often do a good job of summarising it for potential new customers/viewers. Yes, these people start out like this, but we see them change, etc. Just another benefit of waiting for a series' completion before starting to watch it yourself.


                      > Sei seems playful and goofy, but she's really deeply sensitive, with a striking backstory.

                      I know that's what you wrote, but that's not how I read it:


                      > Sei seems playful and goofy, but she's really deeply sensitive, with a striking back... story.

                      That's how I read it. I warped it to suit my amusement. I'd like to thank all parties concerned for their involvement. ^__^
                    • Steve Shea
                      Ah, sorry. I ve gotten spoiled by spoiler tags that do the thoughtful thing for me. Always fun reading the discussions in this group - thanks to all for
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 4 4:23 PM
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                        Ah, sorry. I've gotten spoiled by spoiler tags that do the thoughtful thing for me.

                        Always fun reading the discussions in this group - thanks to all for posting.
                      • Rose Tulip
                        There s something in this world that no one has seen before. It is gentle and sweet. Maybe if it could be seen, everyone would fight over it. That s why no
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 5 5:20 PM
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                          "There's something in this world that no one has seen before. It is gentle and sweet. Maybe if it could be seen, everyone would fight over it. That's why no one has ever seen it. The world hid it so that no one could get their hands on it easily. However, someday, someone will find it. The person who deserves it the most will definitely find it."
                              --CoalGuys transl. of Toradora

                          A friend of mine recommended this anime to me, and after some thorough pestering, I sat down to watch. In this love comedy, two unlikely friends begin their quest to help one another find romance. If you've started the series, you'll wonder why I'm here talking about it.

                          Well, let me just say, WAIT UNTIL EPISODE 13!!! HOHOHOHOHOHOhohohohoho... ^___^ With that, you should be able to pick up all the easter eggs I missed before my Yuri goggles exploded in that episode. Haha. My friend knew I wasn't expecting it at all, and he laughed at my expression.

                          In addition, the president of the school was pretty likable to me in another Yuri kind of sense. lol.

                          Besides the Yuri, the rest of the cast is enjoyable. The characters are dynamic, and  before you know it, you'll find yourselves empathetic towards them. Plus, you'll be surprised with what the producers throw at you next. (I advise viewers not to be fooled by appearances.) The girl who is outed in episode 13 touched a chord in me during the climax of the series, and I feel like it's something we can all relate to. So, I want to recommend and share this series with everyone. In a way, it made me feel young again.

                          Also, if you do watch it, I wonder who you'll be shipping at the end, if you know what I mean... lol

                        • josephglanvill
                          I think you summarized it perfectly. The reason I could never get into the series is that it s Yuri soap; the characters, with the single, glorious exception
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 9 11:22 AM
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                            I think you summarized it perfectly. The reason I could never get into the series is that it's Yuri soap; the characters, with the single, glorious exception of Sei, are all lost in navel gazing. The Shinji syndrome as it's known.

                            To phrase it another way, it's like a Yuri "Meine Liebe", except that it tries to take itself seriously. It lacks that wonderful, glorious shamelessness that makes things like Meine Liebe, Kannazuki no Miko etc. so watchable.

                            Everyone seems in serious need of life-saving cynicism.

                            I'd really like to see one episode where, a la Dylan Moran, Yumi comes late to a meeting and says "I knew you were here. Would you like to know where I was? I was at home. I had a bun. And it was delicious because I knew you were here waiting. I've never really liked you, but we have to get through this meeting, so could I get a drink so I don't need to look at you too much?"

                            Such an episode would be worth its weight in gold. Even just as omake.

                            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I've trying to get my head around why I never truly got into this series. I stopped after the Blue Umbrella episode (don't know how it ends) because I thought I just dislike DRAMA when it's serious/sad, not comedic. I think I've figured it out: It's loner porn.
                            >
                            > Well, not exactly... but I'll try and explain it. I'll likely fail, but it's swirling in my head, and on the occasional knock, or when some vintage clock tolls in Aruba, it makes sense.
                            >
                            >
                            > Esentially, series like these are for people who identify with the loner girl who's isolated themselves from schoolmates because they never learned to make friends, and console themselves that they don't need friends because they're too "smart", dignified or "mature" for those people around them (adults call this "professional in the workplace". Result's the same: you don't spend time with them outside work. You don't have friends, merely likeable coworkers)
                            >
                            > Now, to solve the problem means breaking down the walls of "maturity/professionalism" you've built around yourself, and making friends with those fun loving people around you... but that takes effort. Wouldn't it be easier to simply read a book all by your lonesome during these friendless lunches where the author makes people like you look like a prize?
                            >
                            >
                            > They have an emotionally withdrawn character like Sachiko and add the Genki Girl: the opposite. This girl is open on all things, makes friends easily and has so many, is often loud and considered "undignified" by the loner who looks down on such things. And the Genki Girl sees the loner, and views her as supremely wonderful and makes all attempts to "win" her company. Oh, isn't that such a nice feeling for the friendless yet "mature" reader: a book that says "people like you are a prize, here's issue after issue of someone trying to win your affection".
                            >
                            > Now you've got the Rapunzel syndrome: why tie your hair up, lift your damn dress and climb down the tower and rescue your own damn self when you can just sit back and watch a prince do all the work for you? Why do the scary work of learning to talk to people, move out of your (once involuntary yet now completely voluntary) comfort zone of loneliness and do things you wouldn't want to do and spend time with people and do things they enjoy and eventually have fun and have a social life, when you can just find a quiet spot and kill more time by reading a book by yourself that's just page after page of one sentence: "You are somebody's fetish"?
                            >
                            > Marimite, Hayate X Blade... any series where the (usually) tall older loner girl is beset by a lil' urchin who spends day and night thinking of Loner Girl, and engages in numerous activities to befriend her, often resulting in annoyance. And when finally Loner Girl deigns to reciprocate all this vast time/effort sapent by Genki Girl with... a smile or something... it's all "Happy Ending, Hooray for Character Development!"
                            >
                            > I don't see any development I respect. She's just as withdrawn, she's merely accepting friendship applications. If she started submitting her own, and taking tenuous steps to befriend OTHER girls, then yes, I'd see a cold exterior cracked. But no, she just permitted someone who thinks she's perfection the honour of her company. Gee, that must be sooo hard. And so hard for girls like her to read about. Now that's a fantasy fiction that'll leave you satisfied.
                            >
                            > ... and yet, despite all this, I hope I.M's Nobue Ito never changes. And just like that, my theory of "why didn't I stick with MariMite" is destroyed. Maybe I just prefer yuri when it's comedic/entertaining. Maybe I'm having issues with loving Hayate X Blade, despite finding Ayana Mudō in no way likeable.
                            >
                            >
                            > Has anyone seen pass this badly-worded rant and actually seen the idea behind it? The realisation? Kinda sorta? Am I making ANY sense? If you disagree, that's a win, because that means YES, you do see what I'm talking about, you merely think I'm wrong. And I can live with that. ^__^
                            >
                          • Erica Friedman
                            ... Obviously, opinions are personal and can t be changed by other people influicting their on you, but I ll disgaree with this. Marimite is, IMHO, completely
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 9 1:33 PM
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                               > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: thirohk@...
                              > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:22:50 +0000
                              > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?
                              >
                              >
                              > I think you summarized it perfectly. The reason I could never get into the series is that it's Yuri soap; the characters, with the single, glorious exception of Sei, are all lost in navel gazing. The Shinji syndrome as it's known.
                              >
                              > To phrase it another way, it's like a Yuri "Meine Liebe", except that it tries to take itself seriously.
                               
                              Obviously, opinions are personal and can't be changed by other people influicting their on you, but I'll disgaree with this. Marimite is, IMHO, completely free of taking itself seriously. The woman who created it has created characters who laugh as much as they cry, smile with joy more than through the pain and in general, are the kinds of people I'd like to have over for lunch.
                               
                              It is not Over The Top, as KnM and Strawberry Panic are. And it is not not "hit you over the head with the Yuri stick"as those series are. Perhaps that is why you see it as too serious.
                               
                              However, as I said, ur opinions do not change (and should not) because other people feel differently. I prefer the realistic personal development of Yumi to Nagisa's non-deveopment and fake kisses with Shizuma. But that's me and clearly, your milage varied. :-)
                               
                               
                              > I'd really like to see one episode where, a la Dylan Moran, Yumi comes late to a meeting and says "I knew you were here. Would you like to know where I was? I was at home. I had a bun. And it was delicious because I knew you were here waiting. I've never really liked you, but we have to get through this meeting, so could I get a drink so I don't need to look at you too much?"
                               
                              Obviously you are more comfortable with broader comedy, as they say. :-)


                              Cheers,
                               
                              Erica
                              Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu:
                              http://okazu.blogspot.com




                              Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
                            • BlackSkaven
                              ... Well - doesn t this mean taking itself seriously? I can t recall that the souer system was being questioned or ridiculed ever for example. Isn t the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 10 5:27 PM
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                                Erica Friedman wrote:

                                > Obviously, opinions are personal and can't be changed by other people
                                > influicting their on you, but I'll disgaree with this. Marimite is,
                                > IMHO, completely free of taking itself seriously.

                                > The woman who created
                                > it has created characters who laugh as much as they cry, smile with joy
                                > more than through the pain and in general, are the kinds of people I'd
                                > like to have over for lunch.

                                Well - doesn't this mean taking itself seriously? I can't recall that
                                the souer system was being questioned or ridiculed ever for example.
                                Isn't the introduction to the school serious as well (proper wardrobe
                                etc.). At least I don't think they wanted to make people laugh or shake
                                their heads like certainly quite a few in the West did who didn't have
                                to wear school uniforms. When hearing the intro from the first season I
                                always asked myself - is this really no parody? To me the souer system
                                feels dead serious. So what is taking itself seriously to you?

                                BlackSkaven
                              • Erica Friedman
                                ... Well, no. Setting a story in a setting that is based on reality isn t particularly serious. I didn t wear a uniform in school, but I know that many do in
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 10 6:22 PM
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                                  > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: BlackSkaven@...
                                  > Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:27:11 +0200
                                  > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?
                                  >
                                  > Erica Friedman wrote:

                                  > Well - doesn't this mean taking itself seriously?


                                  Well, no. Setting a story in a setting that is based on reality isn't particularly serious.

                                  I didn't wear a uniform in school, but I know that many do in the west and a lot of kids in Asia do. My school didn't follow a sempai-kouhai systen (which is all the souer system is, really) but it is extremely common as a part of Japanese culture. I don't see where any of that is either parody or taking anything seriously. These thing, such as old-fashioned private schools do exist. Even in the west. I lived near a very old Catholic school for many years and the girls were subject to strict uniform and behavior rules. Stricter than Lillian's.

                                  I write a story of a pop idol. It's is loosely based in reality and is set in a whimsically real world. I don't think anything about Snb or SnR takes itself too seriously, either. :-)

                                  Too seriously in my HO, is something like Gundam Wing, where affected drama and teenage angst are shoved under the cover of a geo-political war with a lot of musing about the meaning of life.

                                  Also, I find that fewer series take themselves seriously than fans take them seriously.

                                  I can't personally see that characters who laugh and cry and don't have crazy mecha popping out to combat inconsistent gods is "too serious" but obviiously, as i said, you prefer your series less subtle and more slapstick than I. :-)

                                  Cheers,

                                  Erica

                                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                                  http://www.yuricon.org

                                  Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

                                  "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net

                                  The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com



                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                  Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
                                  http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009
                                • josephglanvill
                                  Erica, if I may be so bold, I think you mistake me. I didn t say serious ; I said it took itself seriously . Ponderously, plonkingly seriously. To make it
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 11 1:08 PM
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                                    Erica, if I may be so bold, I think you mistake me. I didn't say "serious"; I said it "took itself seriously". Ponderously, plonkingly seriously. To make it plain, it is more serious than warrented. I think the technical term is "bathos".

                                    I watch and read a great deal of serious stuff. The contrast leaping to mind would be "Now and Then, Here and There". It is very serious, but it is not bathetic, to coin a term. It's emphasis is justified by the subject matter.

                                    Or, to scale things down a little, consider Haibane Renmei. There's a really powerful performance, and it is dealt with well. Or even Azumanga Daioh.

                                    What rankles with me about Maramite is the drama invested in trivialities. I just find that kind of high-school stuff insufferable. It's trivial and pointless, and the characters look like saps for taking it seriously. And it's not subtlety, either.

                                    Conversely, what I like about Sei is that she seems to have gotten the joke. Similarly, what makes Meine Liebe etc. so watchable is that there is no chance of anyone taking it seriously. Toungue firmly in cheek.


                                    > Obviously you are more comfortable with broader comedy, as they say. :-)

                                    :) Could be. Still, Dylan Moran enlivens most things "...I would find myself going into cafes, looking for the lillian student to smoke on..."
                                  • Jamie Wells
                                    ... trivialities. I just find that kind of high-school stuff insufferable. It s trivial and pointless, and the characters look like saps for taking it
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 11 3:12 PM
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                                      >What rankles with me about Maramite is the drama invested in
                                      trivialities. I just find that kind of high-school stuff insufferable. It's trivial and pointless, and the characters look like saps for taking it seriously. And it's not subtlety, either.

                                      If you find it insufferable there is a simple solution: don't watch it.
                                      And if you think it's trivial and pointless try to remember what you considered important as a teenager versus what you consider to be important now.  If you are a teenager and you don't consider that stuff important, well bully to you then.

                                      The point is, Marimite isn't made for people who find it trivial and insufferable.
                                      The characters don't look like saps because in their world, it is a serious thing.  Consider, for a moment (if you're able), if you were put into a religious school with a very serious implied structure between the grades.  And you didn't really have to worry about anything else aside from school and graduating and making your family happy---

                                      Now what would you consider important?

                                      I apologize if I come off as rough, but I don't think it's very fair to attack the character's responses if you can't consider the setting in which they've been placed.


                                      --- On Sat, 4/11/09, josephglanvill <thirohk@...> wrote:
                                      From: josephglanvill <thirohk@...>
                                      Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?
                                      To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:08 PM

                                      Erica, if I may be so bold, I think you mistake me. I didn't say "serious"; I said it "took itself seriously". Ponderously, plonkingly seriously. To make it plain, it is more serious than warrented. I think the technical term is "bathos".

                                      I watch and read a great deal of serious stuff. The contrast leaping to mind would be "Now and Then, Here and There". It is very serious, but it is not bathetic, to coin a term. It's emphasis is justified by the subject matter.

                                      Or, to scale things down a little, consider Haibane Renmei. There's a really powerful performance, and it is dealt with well. Or even Azumanga Daioh.

                                      What rankles with me about Maramite is the drama invested in trivialities. I just find that kind of high-school stuff insufferable. It's trivial and pointless, and the characters look like saps for taking it seriously. And it's not subtlety, either.

                                      Conversely, what I like about Sei is that she seems to have gotten the joke. Similarly, what makes Meine Liebe etc. so watchable is that there is no chance of anyone taking it seriously. Toungue firmly in cheek.

                                      > Obviously you are more comfortable with broader comedy, as they say. :-)

                                      :) Could be. Still, Dylan Moran enlivens most things "...I would find myself going into cafes, looking for the lillian student to smoke on..."


                                    • Allison Passino
                                      Exactly. Very well put. ... From: Jamie Wells To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Apr 11 4:18 PM
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                                        Exactly. Very well put.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:12 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?

                                        >What rankles with me about Maramite is the drama invested in trivialities. I just find that kind of high-school stuff insufferable. It's trivial and pointless, and the characters look like saps for taking it seriously. And it's not subtlety, either.

                                        If you find it insufferable there is a simple solution: don't watch it.
                                        And if you think it's trivial and pointless try to remember what you considered important as a teenager versus what you consider to be important now.  If you are a teenager and you don't consider that stuff important, well bully to you then.

                                        The point is, Marimite isn't made for people who find it trivial and insufferable.
                                        The characters don't look like saps because in their world, it is a serious thing.  Consider, for a moment (if you're able), if you were put into a religious school with a very serious implied structure between the grades.  And you didn't really have to worry about anything else aside from school and graduating and making your family happy---

                                        Now what would you consider important?

                                        I apologize if I come off as rough, but I don't think it's very fair to attack the character's responses if you can't consider the setting in which they've been placed.


                                        --- On Sat, 4/11/09, josephglanvill <thirohk@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                        From: josephglanvill <thirohk@hotmail. com>
                                        Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Maria-sama = porn for loners?
                                        To: Yuricon@yahoogroups .com
                                        Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:08 PM

                                        Erica, if I may be so bold, I think you mistake me. I didn't say "serious"; I said it "took itself seriously". Ponderously, plonkingly seriously. To make it plain, it is more serious than warrented. I think the technical term is "bathos".

                                        I watch and read a great deal of serious stuff. The contrast leaping to mind would be "Now and Then, Here and There". It is very serious, but it is not bathetic, to coin a term. It's emphasis is justified by the subject matter.

                                        Or, to scale things down a little, consider Haibane Renmei. There's a really powerful performance, and it is dealt with well. Or even Azumanga Daioh.

                                        What rankles with me about Maramite is the drama invested in trivialities. I just find that kind of high-school stuff insufferable. It's trivial and pointless, and the characters look like saps for taking it seriously. And it's not subtlety, either.

                                        Conversely, what I like about Sei is that she seems to have gotten the joke. Similarly, what makes Meine Liebe etc. so watchable is that there is no chance of anyone taking it seriously. Toungue firmly in cheek.

                                        > Obviously you are more comfortable with broader comedy, as they say. :-)

                                        :) Could be. Still, Dylan Moran enlivens most things "...I would find myself going into cafes, looking for the lillian student to smoke on..."


                                      • BlackSkaven
                                        ... Well - like the original poster I mean taking itself seriously - not serious. IMO the souer system goes a step further - it takes the relationship
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Apr 11 4:33 PM
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                                          Erica Friedman wrote:

                                          >> Well - doesn't this mean taking itself seriously?
                                          >
                                          > Well, no. Setting a story in a setting that is based on reality isn't particularly serious.

                                          Well - like the original poster I mean 'taking itself seriously' - not
                                          serious.

                                          IMO the souer system goes a step further - it takes the relationship
                                          between Sempai and Kouhai to a personal level.

                                          > Too seriously in my HO, is something like Gundam Wing, where affected drama and teenage angst

                                          Isn't there teenage angst in Marimite as well?

                                          Well - For me mechas, sailor suits and bunny ears are rather a reason
                                          not to watch something.

                                          > Also, I find that fewer series take themselves seriously than fans take them seriously.

                                          > you prefer your series less subtle and more slapstick than I. :-)

                                          Getting serious?

                                          Cheers,

                                          BlackSkaven
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