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RE: [Yuricon] Re: So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?

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  • Ellen Kuhfeld
    If Touko were a house she d be a fixer-upper. (And I have met a house that was haunted by a ghost that did not want the house fixed up.) Maybe it s my own
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 2, 2009
      Message
      If Touko were a house she'd be a fixer-upper. (And I have met a house that was haunted by a ghost that did not want the house fixed up.)  Maybe it's my own insecurities coming out, but if I were Yumi, I'd take Kanako.
       
      Ellen
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sapphire_sophilia
      Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 7:45 PM
      To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Yuricon] Re: So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?

      season 4 is half way over, oh my gosh *starts bitting nails*

      i have to admit. i didn't like touko at first, but we're really
      starting to see her as a person in this season and personally, I'd
      like to see her and yumi ending up being sister sin the end

    • Rinu CZ
      Hi, The fourth season is over and Touko s arc along with it. Before more knowledgeable say something, at least for now :). So what am I thinking about Touko
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 29, 2009
        Hi,

        The fourth season is over and "Touko's arc" along with it. Before more
        knowledgeable say something, at least for now :). So what am I
        thinking about Touko now? I admit it was a nice turn of events which
        provides us to see more depth of one character and that's something
        what I like about Konno Oyuki's writing. On the other hand, she still
        remains only one Marimite's character which I wouldn't miss in my
        life. I mind you I have never said I hate her, I very rarely use such
        a strong word and certainly not for a character from anime :).

        Watching 11 episodes filled with investigation of one's feeling for
        sake of 12th episode which wants to deliver me the "Ah, so that's it"
        feel, it's like watching a rabukome full of "I want to beat crap out
        of you" moments with final episode of "But I like you, you know". For
        someone it's probably interesting, for me not and I find it to be an
        unneeded filler. If it was resolved sooner, I'd be probably more fond
        of her.

        Still, the weakest point of this season is definitely a resolving of
        Kanako's situation. Absurdly, in comparison with the huge amount of
        time spared on Touko's problems, I still think about this as
        incredibly sloppy handling for Konno's writing style.

        Anyway, I will most likely keep to have a soft spot for this series,
        but I doubt I'll re-watch a larger part of 4th season for different
        reason than czechize it :). In the case of novels I can't make any
        statement in this matter and I will be glad to discover a beauty of
        original later.

        With kind regards,

        Rinu

        PS. Yoshino's line "Aw, if I go, it'd complicate things again, right?"
        was amusing. Thanks the heavens she realized it before telling her,
        lol.

        2009/2/27 atheniag <anilesbocon01@...>:
        > The 4th season of Maria-sama ga Miteru is just past halfway. Some of
        > you were carrying around Touko hate from "Rainy Blue" (which is like
        > ages ago now.)
        >
        > You've seen her at a little bit more vulnerable and seem Yumi taking
        > control of the relationship subtlely. You've also seen a low point in
        > their relationship.
        >
        > So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
        >
        > I'm asking, because of course, I'm pretty sure where this season is
        > going to end and I can mostly guarantee that all but the most
        > dedicated Touko-hater will not be able to keep that up. :-)
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Erica
      • Erica Friedman
        ... Hi Rinu - You make some really good (and interesting) points. ... I can understand disliking a character, and even hating them, when they are set up to be
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 29, 2009
          > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          > From: rinucz@...
          > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:03:14 +0200
          > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?

          Hi Rinu - You make some really good (and interesting) points.


          > I have never said I hate her, I very rarely use such
          > a strong word and certainly not for a character from anime :).
           
          I can understand disliking a character, and even hating them, when they are set up to
          be hate-able.  But like you, I try to have a internal priority check. (Not real. Check.
          Two dimensional. Check. Did I mention Not Real?. Check.) lol

          >
          > Watching 11 episodes filled with investigation of one's feeling for
          > sake of 12th episode which wants to deliver me the "Ah, so that's it"
          > feel, it's like watching a rabukome full of "I want to beat crap out
          > of you" moments with final episode of "But I like you, you know". For
          > someone it's probably interesting, for me not and I find it to be an
          > unneeded filler. If it was resolved sooner, I'd be probably more fond
          > of her.
           
          That's a really good summation of how a lot of fans must feel.
           
          Thinking about it, I have come up with what I think explains the
          disconnect. In Japan I believe that readers mask themselves into
          the character, where in the West we tend to mask the
          character itno ourselves. (This is of course a generality and there
          are loads of exceptions.)
           
          So for the average Japanese reader, Yumi's concerns, her feelings, her
          desire to have Touko open up to her and become her sister is paramount.
          Whereas Western readers weigh the character's reactions on the scale of their
          own. So, as a middle-aged woman, Touko's actions might seem to me to be
          exhausting and I wouldn't waste a second on her, bratty as she is.
           
          But to Yumi, Touko is only a year younger, her loneliness and pain
          are evident and here's the important bit...Yumi loves her.
           
          If I read the book *as* Yumi, Touko is immensely important, and her
          quest to find herself is not a "Ah, so that's it" story, but a critical (and
          dramatic) movement towards love and acceptance.
           
          For me, the best bit is that Touko realizes how alone she isn't - not
          just because of Yumi's love, but because of Noriko (my hero!) And
          from there, she can find Yumi, and all of the rest of the Yamayurikai,
          especially her beloved Sachiko-oneesama.
           
          Now, I don't think that reading the full text of the novels alone will
          alter anyone's opinion. Especially if one reads the novel as one's self.
          It takes a shift of perspective to remember that this is Yumi's story, not
          ours. :-)
           

          > Still, the weakest point of this season is definitely a resolving of
          > Kanako's situation. Absurdly, in comparison with the huge amount of
          > time spared on Touko's problems, I still think about this as
          > incredibly sloppy handling for Konno's writing style.
           
           
          If you've read the translation ( he translation"Nothing Special, Just Another Day" is both
          in the archive of this ML and on Okazu already) you'll find that the anime left very
          little out. That was the resolution. All of it.
           
          I had this conversation on the #marimite_spoilers channel one day, about how, in
          pieces, the whole thing seems utterly dumb. But when you put it all together,
          it was a really horrific situation for Kanako to be in and, at least in my HO,
          totally understandable that she lost it.
           
          I won't retell the story chronologically here because it would be spoilers,
          but feel free to drop by #marimite_spoilers@... and I'll be delighted to
          retell it from the beginning so you can see just how dreadful the beginning was
          and how not entirely pat the ending was. :)
           
          That having been said - I agree wholeheartedly that of all things in all the novels
          that was the weakest bit of writing. OTOH, Konno-sensei was writing
          4 books a year for like 10 years. We have to cut her some slack. lol
           
          There are a few things I would like to see done as OVAs, to complete the series.
           
          I would like to see Tsutako and Shouko's whole story as an OVA. I would like to
          see Shimako's backstory told, because it was a tremendous eye opener, had fabulous
          OMG! moments, and explains *everything.*
           
          I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries
          might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.
           
          And I think that "Hello Goodbye," the last novel of the series deserves an OVA.
          Because, really, it does. And not for the reasons you think. :-)
           
          Cheers,
           
          Erica
           
          Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
          http://okazu.blogspot.com


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        • sarcastic_weasel
          ... Yes. Yes, it does. That s something I want to see, too. That was a bit of a surprise. ... Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 29, 2009
            > I would like to see Shimako's backstory told, because it was a tremendous eye opener, had fabulous OMG! moments, and explains *everything.*

            Yes. Yes, it does. That's something I want to see, too. That was a bit of a surprise.

            > I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.

            Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some light little trip to an amusement park... boy was *I* wrong. Some great stuff in there. (Especially the camera. lol.) But I completely agree with what you said at the time-- if Konno Oyuki wanted to, she could have ended the series right there. The little piece at the end has that feeling.

            > And I think that "Hello Goodbye," the last novel of the series deserves an OVA.
            >
            > Because, really, it does. And not for the reasons you think. :-)

            Haven't read it yet. Still reading Margaret/Ribon.

            But I'd argue that Bara no Kanmui also deserves an OVA, for a spoilery reason, and also because it would set up one amusing part of Kira Kira Mawaru.

            Of course, I still want to see the other two dates from the treasure hunt. One because it was funny as hell, and the other because, well, can't really say it without spoiling it.

            Go buy some Marimite DVDs and get them thinking about making more OVAs, dangit!

            Oh, and about Touko-- I was just happy to see some of the scenes from the books animated, to be honest. I really enjoyed that.

            Yeah, the storyline was inordinately dragged out in the books, and it affected the way it was told on TV. Can't be helped. But when it was finally all unraveled, it did turn out to be a nice story that hit the main themes of the series. We also get to see Yumi really start to become the mature Rosa Chinensis she never thought she'd be able to be a year ago (in story time).

            I guess I'm taking the Japanese approach to the books. I'm looking at it through the filter of Yumi. lol.
          • Erica Friedman
            ... Yeah no kidding! lol ... That was what I was thinking of too. The camera. So swoony the two of them, the whole book. ... Yeah. ... Margaret ni Ribon
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 29, 2009
              > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              > From: sarcastic_weasel@...
              > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:07:38 +0000
              > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?
              >
              >
              > > I would like to see Shimako's backstory told, because it was a tremendous eye opener, had fabulous OMG! moments, and explains *everything.*
              >
              > Yes. Yes, it does. That's something I want to see, too. That was a bit of a surprise.
               
              Yeah no kidding! lol

              >
              > > I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.
              >
              > Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some light little trip to an amusement park... boy was *I* wrong. Some great stuff in there. (Especially the camera. lol.)
               
              That was what I was thinking of too. The camera. So swoony the two of them, the whole book.
               
              > But I completely agree with what you said at the time-- if Konno Oyuki wanted to, she could have ended the series right there. The little piece at the end has that feeling.
               
              Yeah.

              >
              > > And I think that "Hello Goodbye," the last novel of the series deserves an OVA.
              > >
              > > Because, really, it does. And not for the reasons you think. :-)
              >
              > Haven't read it yet. Still reading Margaret/Ribon.
               
               
              "Margaret ni Ribon" really is an excellent book. Not just for the Shimako stuff, but "Rivals" is also super excellent. It's the first time we've ever gotten to see Eriko at her completely unflaky, totally competent person that obviously everyone else knew she was.

              >
              > But I'd argue that Bara no Kanmui also deserves an OVA, for a spoilery reason, and also because it would set up one amusing part of Kira Kira Mawaru.
               
              True. If they did a fifth, I'd add that.

              >
              > Of course, I still want to see the other two dates from the treasure hunt. One because it was funny as hell, and the other because, well, can't really say it without spoiling it.
               
              Yes, and yes! lol

              > Oh, and about Touko-- I was just happy to see some of the scenes from the books animated, to be honest. I really enjoyed that.
               
              The best, best, best scene IMHO, is when Noriko goes running after her in the map room. Best scene. I needed a cigarette after that. That was the scene I'd been waiting all season to see.


              > I guess I'm taking the Japanese approach to the books. I'm looking at it through the filter of Yumi. lol.

              Me too. I think translating them helped, because you end up spending *so* much time in their heads, (at least I do, on account of sucking at translation) and because you are parsing every word and every scene in such detail. And then you're discussing it with the rest of the TL group (in the case of Sukoshi, Rei and I) so it's like you really know them intimately and what they feel.
               
              So, sure, Touko was a prat in "Rainy Blue." By the end of "Anata o Sagashi ni," she's Yumi's beloved friend. (And how about those moments where we get to see the Touko we have never before seen, at the hospital. That was amazing. You can see how people love her, how well she relates to them, how caring she is and how really amazing a doctor she'd make.)
               
              Sniff.
               
              Cheers,
               
              Erica
               
              Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
              http://www.yuricon.org


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            • Katherine
              I just saw the ending, and it was wonderful. The final scene made it seem like the series has come full circle, with Yumi finally choosing her own petite
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 29, 2009
                I just saw the ending, and it was wonderful. The final scene made it seem like the series has come full circle, with Yumi finally choosing her own petite soeur, although luckily there's still more to (hopefully!! XD) be animated. I really, really like Touko now. I wanted to smack her upside the head during season 2, but her development from then through the end of the fourth season has been remarkable and wonderfully unpredictable. :)


                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Rinu CZ <rinucz@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > The fourth season is over and "Touko's arc" along with it. Before more
                > knowledgeable say something, at least for now :). So what am I
                > thinking about Touko now? I admit it was a nice turn of events which
                > provides us to see more depth of one character and that's something
                > what I like about Konno Oyuki's writing. On the other hand, she still
                > remains only one Marimite's character which I wouldn't miss in my
                > life. I mind you I have never said I hate her, I very rarely use such
                > a strong word and certainly not for a character from anime :).
                >
                > Watching 11 episodes filled with investigation of one's feeling for
                > sake of 12th episode which wants to deliver me the "Ah, so that's it"
                > feel, it's like watching a rabukome full of "I want to beat crap out
                > of you" moments with final episode of "But I like you, you know". For
                > someone it's probably interesting, for me not and I find it to be an
                > unneeded filler. If it was resolved sooner, I'd be probably more fond
                > of her.
                >
                > Still, the weakest point of this season is definitely a resolving of
                > Kanako's situation. Absurdly, in comparison with the huge amount of
                > time spared on Touko's problems, I still think about this as
                > incredibly sloppy handling for Konno's writing style.
                >
                > Anyway, I will most likely keep to have a soft spot for this series,
                > but I doubt I'll re-watch a larger part of 4th season for different
                > reason than czechize it :). In the case of novels I can't make any
                > statement in this matter and I will be glad to discover a beauty of
                > original later.
                >
                > With kind regards,
                >
                > Rinu
                >
                > PS. Yoshino's line "Aw, if I go, it'd complicate things again, right?"
                > was amusing. Thanks the heavens she realized it before telling her,
                > lol.
                >
                > 2009/2/27 atheniag anilesbocon01@...:
                > > The 4th season of Maria-sama ga Miteru is just past halfway. Some of
                > > you were carrying around Touko hate from "Rainy Blue" (which is like
                > > ages ago now.)
                > >
                > > You've seen her at a little bit more vulnerable and seem Yumi taking
                > > control of the relationship subtlely. You've also seen a low point in
                > > their relationship.
                > >
                > > So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
                > >
                > > I'm asking, because of course, I'm pretty sure where this season is
                > > going to end and I can mostly guarantee that all but the most
                > > dedicated Touko-hater will not be able to keep that up. :-)
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > Erica
                >
              • sarcastic_weasel
                Mild spoilery stuff... I m inserting some space here so yahoo doesn t ruin anything by accident. Here s some more random spoiler space text. Here s some more,
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 29, 2009
                  Mild spoilery stuff...
                  I'm inserting some space here so yahoo doesn't ruin anything by accident. Here's some more random spoiler space text. Here's some more, just in case. It's free.
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  That should be enough.
                  .
                  .
                  > > > I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.
                  > >
                  > > Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some light little trip to an amusement park... boy was *I* wrong. Some great stuff in there. (Especially the camera. lol.)
                  >
                  > That was what I was thinking of too. The camera. So swoony the two of them, the whole book.
                  >

                  That, and a we get a great insight into the way Tsu sees herself. That was way cool. It reminded me kind of how we can be tempted to think, "Wow, that person is really cool and has their act together," but in reality, that person is struggling just as much with life as we are.

                  > "Margaret ni Ribon" really is an excellent book. Not just for the Shimako stuff, but "Rivals" is also super excellent. It's the first time we've ever gotten to see Eriko at her completely unflaky, totally competent person that obviously everyone else knew she was.
                  >

                  Reading "Rivals" right now. (Did I read that right? She took it out on Yoshino? lol.)

                  >> Oh, and about Touko-- I was just happy to see some of the scenes from the books animated, to be honest. I really enjoyed that.
                  >
                  > The best, best, best scene IMHO, is when Noriko goes running after her in the map room. Best scene. I needed a cigarette after that. That was the scene I'd been waiting all season to see.
                  >

                  Yeah, that was awesome. Of course, the scene right after it, when Shimako asks Noriko if she was cold, then realizes Noriko was crying, was great, too. (Awww.)

                  My favorite scenes were the scene with Sachiko asking Yumi to stand up, and the scene at the curve in the road. I really wanted to see those two. Sort of like skipping the sides and going straight for the main course.

                  The scene that I really wanted to see that got omitted was Sachiko telling Yumi after Touko got the card that Sachiko didn't *give* the card to Touko, Touko *won* the card, and reminded Yumi how she hates to lose. lol.

                  > Me too. I think translating them helped, because you end up spending *so* much time in their heads, (at least I do, on account of sucking at translation) and because you are parsing every word and every scene in such detail. And then you're discussing it with the rest of the TL group (in the case of Sukoshi, Rei and I) so it's like you really know them intimately and what they feel.
                  >

                  Kudos for translating them. My Japanese isn't nearly strong enough for such a task. (Or should I say my sanity?) I can slog through a book in a week or so, but I don't have the stomach for getting the details right. I get too bogged down, and leave marks on the desk from banging my head on it.

                  You were right, by the way. Some characters are a lot easier to read than others. (Yumi.) I had noticed after reading a few books that it was getting a bit easier to read them, until I came across a Youko chapter. 2 days later...

                  But yeah, reading the books really has changed my perspective on the series. (And has done wonders for my Japanese, too.)

                  > So, sure, Touko was a prat in "Rainy Blue." By the end of "Anata o Sagashi ni," she's Yumi's beloved friend. (And how about those moments where we get to see the Touko we have never before seen, at the hospital. That was amazing. You can see how people love her, how well she relates to them, how caring she is and how really amazing a doctor she'd make.)
                  >

                  Yeah, that was a nice touch. Touko really has come a long way.

                  My inner LoserMariMiteFan would love to see a "10 years later" book from Konno Oyuki someday, but I know it's not gonna happen. Everyone gets to graduate except Yumi. lol. Poor Yumi.
                • atheniag
                  ... I will also add spoiler space.... ... . . . . . . . . ... That s a pretty common theme in anime/manga and, well, life. I just finished a collection of
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 30, 2009
                    --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "sarcastic_weasel" <sarcastic_weasel@...> wrote:

                    I will also add spoiler space....




                    > Mild spoilery stuff...
                    > I'm inserting some space here so yahoo doesn't ruin anything by accident. Here's some more random spoiler space text. Here's some more, just in case. It's free.
                    > .
                    > .
                    > .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    .

                    > That, and a we get a great insight into the way Tsu sees herself. That was way cool. It reminded me kind of how we can be tempted to think, "Wow, that person is really cool and has their act together," but in reality, that person is struggling just as much with life as we are.

                    That's a pretty common theme in anime/manga and, well, life.

                    I just finished a collection of "Zot" by Scott McCloud and almost all of the last chapters are just that - we see the group from the outside, then are shown what each feels about themselves and the other for real.

                    I didn't actually like those issues, but it is undoubtedly a truism.


                    >
                    > Reading "Rivals" right now. (Did I read that right? She took it out on Yoshino? lol.)

                    Yes, she absolutely did.


                    > My favorite scenes were the scene with Sachiko asking Yumi to stand up, and the scene at the curve in the road. I really wanted to see those two. Sort of like skipping the sides and going straight for the main course.

                    Yeah, I was smiling when Sachiko asked her to stand. :)


                    > The scene that I really wanted to see that got omitted was Sachiko telling Yumi after Touko got the card that Sachiko didn't *give* the card to Touko, Touko *won* the card, and reminded Yumi how she hates to lose. lol.

                    Yes!

                    That whole scene in the book was confusing for me to read, but after the fact it all feel into place.


                    >
                    > Kudos for translating them. My Japanese isn't nearly strong enough for such a task. (Or should I say my sanity?) I can slog through a book in a week or so, but I don't have the stomach for getting the details right. I get too bogged down, and leave marks on the desk from banging my head on it.

                    Me too. That's why I stopped for a while.

                    >
                    > You were right, by the way. Some characters are a lot easier to read than others. (Yumi.) I had noticed after reading a few books that it was getting a bit easier to read them, until I came across a Youko chapter. 2 days later...

                    My two worst are:

                    Yoshino (oh my goodness, do her sentences wander hither and yon...)

                    Shouko (she speaks very prettily, but almost exclusively in a passive voice and for some reason it's just really complicated to read)

                    Youko's voice is a very adult, very mature voice. Lots of kanji, but very straightforward sentences.


                    > My inner LoserMariMiteFan would love to see a "10 years later" book from Konno Oyuki someday, but I know it's not gonna happen. Everyone gets to graduate except Yumi. lol. Poor Yumi.

                    I always love epilogues like that. I actually did write a list of what I thought everyone would become or do in their futures for #marimite_spoilers, a while back. :-)


                    Cheers,

                    Erica

                    ALC Publishing - where the girls always gets the girl
                    http://www.anilesbocon.org/shop/alcp.html
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