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Re: [Yuricon] Re: So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?

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  • Grisznak
    Hi I really hope that one day Yumi won t stand Touko and she ll strangle this gurren lagan haired kid with her rosary. I never liked Touko. She s good as a
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 1 1:03 PM
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      Hi
      I really hope that one day Yumi won't stand Touko and she'll strangle
      this gurren lagan haired kid with her rosary.

      I never liked Touko. She's good as a character 'cos she gives some
      fresh air to the serie, but I simply never liked such persons ( she
      reminds me Shiori from Utena or Mariko from Oniisama E).
      cheers
      Grisznak

      2009/3/1 sarcastic_weasel <sarcastic_weasel@...>:
      >
      >> So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
      >
      > I've enjoyed Touko as a character ever since her evil eyebrows and her
      > ninja soft steps showed up in season two.
      >
      > At first I thought she was merely an annoying younger sibling type
      > character. (I'm thinking back to the whole juzu incident.) You know,
      > like when you'd get together with your friends, and one of you had a
      > younger sibling who would pester the heck out of you and tell on you
      > and ruin your fun? She sort of reminded me of one of those at first.
      >
      > It seemed like she was desperately trying to be the center of
      > attention at first, or trying to make herself invaluable somehow.
      >
      > By the time we got to "Parasol wo Sashite," I found her to be charming
      > in her own way, and it seemed like she had settled down. And I enjoyed
      > her in the OVAs quite a bit, especially how she reacted to Yumi.
      >
      > I really like how Yumi irritates her. Maybe it's because Yumi is
      > totally unguarded, while Touko always has her guard up. I'm
      > speculating, but I think Touko is slightly envious of Yumi in that regard.
      >
      > I decided to start reading the books in Japanese, and just finished
      > plowing through
      > 薔薇のミルフィユー.
      > That was the first one I decided
      > to read, since there are English translations of the other novels, and
      > I'm impatient to see what happens-- I'll go back and read the earlier
      > ones when I finish. (I was actually proud that I managed to read one
      > in its entirety.)
      >
      > I'm halfway through 未来の白地図, and
      > I'm looking forward to finding
      > out Touko's backstory. I hope I can finish the books in question and
      > get to it before the anime races through it, but I don't think I'll be
      > fast enough to read it all. I'm getting better at reading them, but it
      > still takes too long.
      >
      > I'm slightly disappointed with this season in one respect-- they're
      > skipping over some great stuff. I kind of wonder what they're going to
      > do about that... I guess if it's skipped, it's skipped, tho.
      >
      >
    • Haruchin
      I actually quite liked Touko throughout the second season and OVAs, partly because watching a troublemaker at work was a breath of fresh air for the series,
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 2 4:41 AM
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         I actually quite liked Touko throughout the second season and OVAs, partly because watching a troublemaker at work was a breath of fresh air for the series, and partly because I loved the way she grew - especially in the OVAs. I loved her interactions with Yumi, especially since the animation always manages to perfectly convey what she's thinking, simply through the angle of a raised eyebrow. Yumi manipulating Touko into returning to the drama club was a perfect example of everything I like about their character interactions.
         
        But then she turned down Yumi's rosary. In a really nasty way. Right now I understand where she is coming from (looking forward to finding out if any of my guesses about her motivations are correct), I feel vaguely sorry for her, but I don't like her at all. She knowingly and deliberately hurt Yumi - so for the moment, 'like' isn't an emotional option.
         
        Never realised before now how protective I was of Yumi. I must be a Fan. ;)
         
        Best,
        Haru
         

        2009/3/1 sarcastic_weasel <sarcastic_weasel@ yahoo.com>:
        >
        >> So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
        >
        > I've enjoyed Touko as a character ever since her evil eyebrows and her
        > ninja soft steps showed up in season two.
        >
        > At first I thought she was merely an annoying younger sibling type
        > character. (I'm thinking back to the whole juzu incident.) You know,
        > like when you'd get together with your friends, and one of you had a
        > younger sibling who would pester the heck out of you and tell on you
        > and ruin your fun? She sort of reminded me of one of those at first.
        >
        > It seemed like she was desperately trying to be the center of
        > attention at first, or trying to make herself invaluable somehow.
        >
        > By the time we got to "Parasol wo Sashite," I found her to be charming
        > in her own way, and it seemed like she had settled down. And I enjoyed
        > her in the OVAs quite a bit, especially how she reacted to Yumi.
        >
        > I really like how Yumi irritates her. Maybe it's because Yumi is
        > totally unguarded, while Touko always has her guard up. I'm
        > speculating, but I think Touko is slightly envious of Yumi in that regard.
        >
        > I decided to start reading the books in Japanese, and just finished
        > plowing through
        > &#34196;&#34183; &#12398;& #12511;&# 12523;&#12501; &#12451;& #12518;&# 12540;.
        > That was the first one I decided
        > to read, since there are English translations of the other novels, and
        > I'm impatient to see what happens-- I'll go back and read the earlier
        > ones when I finish. (I was actually proud that I managed to read one
        > in its entirety.)
        >
        > I'm halfway through &#26410;&#26469; &#12398;& #30333;&# 22320;&#22259; , and
        > I'm looking forward to finding
        > out Touko's backstory. I hope I can finish the books in question and
        > get to it before the anime races through it, but I don't think I'll be
        > fast enough to read it all. I'm getting better at reading them, but it
        > still takes too long.
        >
        > I'm slightly disappointed with this season in one respect-- they're
        > skipping over some great stuff. I kind of wonder what they're going to
        > do about that... I guess if it's skipped, it's skipped, tho.
        >
        >



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      • Blah Blahn
        I hated Touko quite a bit when I first saw her. She looked evil, and interfering. Then somewhere along the Rainy Blue arc I realized that I was watching
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 2 2:59 PM
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          I hated Touko quite a bit when I first saw her. She looked evil, and
          interfering. Then somewhere along the Rainy Blue arc I realized that I
          was watching Marimite and not Jump, so there had to be something about
          Touko past the "stereotypically evil" archetype. I think the third
          season left Touko as a mystery, but the fourth season is doing a
          really good job with Touko, doing exactly what someone had said above,
          peeling back the layers of a very thick character.

          >Granted, I am a self-professed Touko
          >hater too so that shouldn't be surprising. Not EVERY single 15 yr old
          >is a self-absorbed, bitchy, rude know-it-all. There are some who have
          >incredible presence of mind, maturity and consideration for others.

          Right but I can safely say I was self-absorbed, bitchy, rude, a
          know-it-all, and a complete over-the-top drama queen. I shaped up and
          I don't think I've been doing too badly since then. I even learned a
          few things from my experience of being bitchy. It's fun seeing Touko
          and watching her overcome what she's trying to overcome, and it's very
          illustrative that no matter how hard Yumi tries, it's Touko herself
          who's making the obstacles. Touko is a very well made teenage
          character.

          Another thing I've been loving about this season is how the age shows
          on each of the characters. Noriko's enthusiasm and (lack of) composure
          really shows that she is a first-year, and the way that Shimako,
          Yoshino, and Yumi react to their soeur troubles (Noriko, Nana?,
          Touko?) show that they're second-years. And the distance that Sachiko
          and Rei take, while a bit awkward and harsh-seeming at times, shows
          their maturity as third-years, and their preoccupation with entrance
          exams and what's about to happen to them after high school.

          I just love the characters of Marimite :)


          On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Haruchin <haruchin@...> wrote:
          >
          >  I actually quite liked Touko throughout the second season and OVAs, partly
          > because watching a troublemaker at work was a breath of fresh air for the
          > series, and partly because I loved the way she grew - especially in the
          > OVAs. I loved her interactions with Yumi, especially since the animation
          > always manages to perfectly convey what she's thinking, simply through the
          > angle of a raised eyebrow. Yumi manipulating Touko into returning to the
          > drama club was a perfect example of everything I like about their character
          > interactions.
          >
          > But then she turned down Yumi's rosary. In a really nasty way. Right now I
          > understand where she is coming from (looking forward to finding out if any
          > of my guesses about her motivations are correct), I feel vaguely sorry for
          > her, but I don't like her at all. She knowingly and deliberately hurt Yumi -
          > so for the moment, 'like' isn't an emotional option.
          >
          > Never realised before now how protective I was of Yumi. I must be a Fan. ;)
          >
          > Best,
          > Haru
          >
          >
          > 2009/3/1 sarcastic_weasel <sarcastic_weasel@...>:
          >>
          >>> So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
          >>
          >> I've enjoyed Touko as a character ever since her evil eyebrows and her
          >> ninja soft steps showed up in season two.
          >>
          >> At first I thought she was merely an annoying younger sibling type
          >> character. (I'm thinking back to the whole juzu incident.) You know,
          >> like when you'd get together with your friends, and one of you had a
          >> younger sibling who would pester the heck out of you and tell on you
          >> and ruin your fun? She sort of reminded me of one of those at first.
          >>
          >> It seemed like she was desperately trying to be the center of
          >> attention at first, or trying to make herself invaluable somehow.
          >>
          >> By the time we got to "Parasol wo Sashite," I found her to be charming
          >> in her own way, and it seemed like she had settled down. And I enjoyed
          >> her in the OVAs quite a bit, especially how she reacted to Yumi.
          >>
          >> I really like how Yumi irritates her. Maybe it's because Yumi is
          >> totally unguarded, while Touko always has her guard up. I'm
          >> speculating, but I think Touko is slightly envious of Yumi in that regard.
          >>
          >> I decided to start reading the books in Japanese, and just finished
          >> plowing through
          >> 薔薇のミルフィユー.
          >> That was the first one I decided
          >> to read, since there are English translations of the other novels, and
          >> I'm impatient to see what happens-- I'll go back and read the earlier
          >> ones when I finish. (I was actually proud that I managed to read one
          >> in its entirety.)
          >>
          >> I'm halfway through 未来の白地図, and
          >> I'm looking forward to finding
          >> out Touko's backstory. I hope I can finish the books in question and
          >> get to it before the anime races through it, but I don't think I'll be
          >> fast enough to read it all. I'm getting better at reading them, but it
          >> still takes too long.
          >>
          >> I'm slightly disappointed with this season in one respect-- they're
          >> skipping over some great stuff. I kind of wonder what they're going to
          >> do about that... I guess if it's skipped, it's skipped, tho.
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > Windows Live just got better. Find out more!
          >
          >
        • atheniag
          ... I find it interesting that most fans make their decisions about characters almost immediately and despite character growth and change, usually cling to
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 2 4:15 PM
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Blah Blahn <Blarghmania@...> wrote:

            As we were just discussing on IRC:

            > I hated Touko quite a bit when I first saw her. She looked evil, and
            > interfering. Then somewhere along the Rainy Blue arc I realized that I
            > was watching Marimite and not Jump, so there had to be something about
            > Touko past the "stereotypically evil" archetype.

            I find it interesting that most fans make their decisions about
            characters almost immediately and despite character growth and change,
            usually cling to that initial decision.

            For instance, I get emails from time to time, asking me what's up with
            Sachiko. She was "mean" to Yumi in the first episode of the first
            season, so why are they so lovely-dovey now? These people decided that
            Sachiko was a bitch, and despite the fact that her behavior is
            explained, and her and Yumi's relationship builds and becomes so
            close, they cannot shed that initial belief.


            I think the third
            > season left Touko as a mystery, but the fourth season is doing a
            > really good job with Touko, doing exactly what someone had said above,
            > peeling back the layers of a very thick character.

            The third season gave people a glimpse of the fact that Touko *never*
            disliked Yumi. Yes, she was jealous of her, but she was also
            interested in her, because she was the girl who had become Sachiko's
            little sister. And by the third season, i think it's obvious that
            Touko is beginning to feel protective of Yumi, whome she clearly feels
            is a babe in the woods. lol


            > It's fun seeing Touko
            > and watching her overcome what she's trying to overcome, and it's very
            > illustrative that no matter how hard Yumi tries, it's Touko herself
            > who's making the obstacles. Touko is a very well made teenage
            > character.


            I agree.

            Because Marimite has no plot *other* than character development, I
            look at it like watch a life, rather than watching a series. The story
            is about Yumi's relationships with the people around her and theirs
            with her and others.

            The "wth!?" changes in Sachiko's personality, or Touko's are the plot. ;-)

            And we are supposed to be seeing these people through Yumi's eyes, not
            so much our own. Hating Touko is sort of aside from the point. Yumi
            loves her. :-)

            Shimako is not shy and reserved, Rei is not a doormat, Sachiko is not
            a lunatic bitch, Touko is not a troublemaker and Yumi is not stupid.
            These are initial impressions established by the creator for the sole
            purpose of being destroyed as we learn more about them.



            > Another thing I've been loving about this season is how the age shows
            > on each of the characters. Noriko's enthusiasm and (lack of) composure
            > really shows that she is a first-year, and the way that Shimako,
            > Yoshino, and Yumi react to their soeur troubles (Noriko, Nana?,
            > Touko?) show that they're second-years. And the distance that Sachiko
            > and Rei take, while a bit awkward and harsh-seeming at times, shows
            > their maturity as third-years, and their preoccupation with entrance
            > exams and what's about to happen to them after high school.



            Absolutely. Although it's a fantasy, at heart, Marimite is quite
            realistic. Which is what makes it work for me.


            Cheers,

            Erica

            Preorder Yuri Monogatari 6 now! - http://tinyurl.com/bgnvut
          • samantha luquin
            Everybody else is replying and I never talk so here goes my once in a blue moon reply...   I m one of those people who just seems to watch Marimite. I have my
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 2 5:32 PM
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              Everybody else is replying and I never talk so here goes my once in a blue moon reply...
               
              I'm one of those people who just seems to watch Marimite. I have my initial oppinions and my favorite charcters but I don't really single anybody out and avidly hate them with a passion. Youko is the closest I got to disliking one of the characters and I don't hear much about Youko haters(just Shiori and Touko haters really).
               
              Because of this I've never understood the Touko hater camp. Yes, Rainy Blue was very depressing and all but I really didn't see the reason to hate Touko. If anything she was entertaining every so oft when I did pay attention to her on my first watch through. That may be another reason I don't hate her...I never really noticed her like everyone else till the OVAs. Which is why I should rewatch season two there are always new things to be pleassantly suprised by with this series.
               
              Now back to lurking.
               
              -Samantha

            • sapphire_sophilia
              season 4 is half way over, oh my gosh *starts bitting nails* i have to admit. i didn t like touko at first, but we re really starting to see her as a person in
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 2 5:45 PM
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                season 4 is half way over, oh my gosh *starts bitting nails*

                i have to admit. i didn't like touko at first, but we're really
                starting to see her as a person in this season and personally, I'd
                like to see her and yumi ending up being sister sin the end
              • Ellen Kuhfeld
                If Touko were a house she d be a fixer-upper. (And I have met a house that was haunted by a ghost that did not want the house fixed up.) Maybe it s my own
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 2 6:32 PM
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                  Message
                  If Touko were a house she'd be a fixer-upper. (And I have met a house that was haunted by a ghost that did not want the house fixed up.)  Maybe it's my own insecurities coming out, but if I were Yumi, I'd take Kanako.
                   
                  Ellen
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sapphire_sophilia
                  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 7:45 PM
                  To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Yuricon] Re: So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?

                  season 4 is half way over, oh my gosh *starts bitting nails*

                  i have to admit. i didn't like touko at first, but we're really
                  starting to see her as a person in this season and personally, I'd
                  like to see her and yumi ending up being sister sin the end

                • Rinu CZ
                  Hi, The fourth season is over and Touko s arc along with it. Before more knowledgeable say something, at least for now :). So what am I thinking about Touko
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 29 6:03 AM
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                    Hi,

                    The fourth season is over and "Touko's arc" along with it. Before more
                    knowledgeable say something, at least for now :). So what am I
                    thinking about Touko now? I admit it was a nice turn of events which
                    provides us to see more depth of one character and that's something
                    what I like about Konno Oyuki's writing. On the other hand, she still
                    remains only one Marimite's character which I wouldn't miss in my
                    life. I mind you I have never said I hate her, I very rarely use such
                    a strong word and certainly not for a character from anime :).

                    Watching 11 episodes filled with investigation of one's feeling for
                    sake of 12th episode which wants to deliver me the "Ah, so that's it"
                    feel, it's like watching a rabukome full of "I want to beat crap out
                    of you" moments with final episode of "But I like you, you know". For
                    someone it's probably interesting, for me not and I find it to be an
                    unneeded filler. If it was resolved sooner, I'd be probably more fond
                    of her.

                    Still, the weakest point of this season is definitely a resolving of
                    Kanako's situation. Absurdly, in comparison with the huge amount of
                    time spared on Touko's problems, I still think about this as
                    incredibly sloppy handling for Konno's writing style.

                    Anyway, I will most likely keep to have a soft spot for this series,
                    but I doubt I'll re-watch a larger part of 4th season for different
                    reason than czechize it :). In the case of novels I can't make any
                    statement in this matter and I will be glad to discover a beauty of
                    original later.

                    With kind regards,

                    Rinu

                    PS. Yoshino's line "Aw, if I go, it'd complicate things again, right?"
                    was amusing. Thanks the heavens she realized it before telling her,
                    lol.

                    2009/2/27 atheniag <anilesbocon01@...>:
                    > The 4th season of Maria-sama ga Miteru is just past halfway. Some of
                    > you were carrying around Touko hate from "Rainy Blue" (which is like
                    > ages ago now.)
                    >
                    > You've seen her at a little bit more vulnerable and seem Yumi taking
                    > control of the relationship subtlely. You've also seen a low point in
                    > their relationship.
                    >
                    > So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
                    >
                    > I'm asking, because of course, I'm pretty sure where this season is
                    > going to end and I can mostly guarantee that all but the most
                    > dedicated Touko-hater will not be able to keep that up. :-)
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > Erica
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... Hi Rinu - You make some really good (and interesting) points. ... I can understand disliking a character, and even hating them, when they are set up to be
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 29 8:19 AM
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                      > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: rinucz@...
                      > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:03:14 +0200
                      > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?

                      Hi Rinu - You make some really good (and interesting) points.


                      > I have never said I hate her, I very rarely use such
                      > a strong word and certainly not for a character from anime :).
                       
                      I can understand disliking a character, and even hating them, when they are set up to
                      be hate-able.  But like you, I try to have a internal priority check. (Not real. Check.
                      Two dimensional. Check. Did I mention Not Real?. Check.) lol

                      >
                      > Watching 11 episodes filled with investigation of one's feeling for
                      > sake of 12th episode which wants to deliver me the "Ah, so that's it"
                      > feel, it's like watching a rabukome full of "I want to beat crap out
                      > of you" moments with final episode of "But I like you, you know". For
                      > someone it's probably interesting, for me not and I find it to be an
                      > unneeded filler. If it was resolved sooner, I'd be probably more fond
                      > of her.
                       
                      That's a really good summation of how a lot of fans must feel.
                       
                      Thinking about it, I have come up with what I think explains the
                      disconnect. In Japan I believe that readers mask themselves into
                      the character, where in the West we tend to mask the
                      character itno ourselves. (This is of course a generality and there
                      are loads of exceptions.)
                       
                      So for the average Japanese reader, Yumi's concerns, her feelings, her
                      desire to have Touko open up to her and become her sister is paramount.
                      Whereas Western readers weigh the character's reactions on the scale of their
                      own. So, as a middle-aged woman, Touko's actions might seem to me to be
                      exhausting and I wouldn't waste a second on her, bratty as she is.
                       
                      But to Yumi, Touko is only a year younger, her loneliness and pain
                      are evident and here's the important bit...Yumi loves her.
                       
                      If I read the book *as* Yumi, Touko is immensely important, and her
                      quest to find herself is not a "Ah, so that's it" story, but a critical (and
                      dramatic) movement towards love and acceptance.
                       
                      For me, the best bit is that Touko realizes how alone she isn't - not
                      just because of Yumi's love, but because of Noriko (my hero!) And
                      from there, she can find Yumi, and all of the rest of the Yamayurikai,
                      especially her beloved Sachiko-oneesama.
                       
                      Now, I don't think that reading the full text of the novels alone will
                      alter anyone's opinion. Especially if one reads the novel as one's self.
                      It takes a shift of perspective to remember that this is Yumi's story, not
                      ours. :-)
                       

                      > Still, the weakest point of this season is definitely a resolving of
                      > Kanako's situation. Absurdly, in comparison with the huge amount of
                      > time spared on Touko's problems, I still think about this as
                      > incredibly sloppy handling for Konno's writing style.
                       
                       
                      If you've read the translation ( he translation"Nothing Special, Just Another Day" is both
                      in the archive of this ML and on Okazu already) you'll find that the anime left very
                      little out. That was the resolution. All of it.
                       
                      I had this conversation on the #marimite_spoilers channel one day, about how, in
                      pieces, the whole thing seems utterly dumb. But when you put it all together,
                      it was a really horrific situation for Kanako to be in and, at least in my HO,
                      totally understandable that she lost it.
                       
                      I won't retell the story chronologically here because it would be spoilers,
                      but feel free to drop by #marimite_spoilers@... and I'll be delighted to
                      retell it from the beginning so you can see just how dreadful the beginning was
                      and how not entirely pat the ending was. :)
                       
                      That having been said - I agree wholeheartedly that of all things in all the novels
                      that was the weakest bit of writing. OTOH, Konno-sensei was writing
                      4 books a year for like 10 years. We have to cut her some slack. lol
                       
                      There are a few things I would like to see done as OVAs, to complete the series.
                       
                      I would like to see Tsutako and Shouko's whole story as an OVA. I would like to
                      see Shimako's backstory told, because it was a tremendous eye opener, had fabulous
                      OMG! moments, and explains *everything.*
                       
                      I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries
                      might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.
                       
                      And I think that "Hello Goodbye," the last novel of the series deserves an OVA.
                      Because, really, it does. And not for the reasons you think. :-)
                       
                      Cheers,
                       
                      Erica
                       
                      Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
                      http://okazu.blogspot.com


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                    • sarcastic_weasel
                      ... Yes. Yes, it does. That s something I want to see, too. That was a bit of a surprise. ... Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 29 9:07 AM
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                        > I would like to see Shimako's backstory told, because it was a tremendous eye opener, had fabulous OMG! moments, and explains *everything.*

                        Yes. Yes, it does. That's something I want to see, too. That was a bit of a surprise.

                        > I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.

                        Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some light little trip to an amusement park... boy was *I* wrong. Some great stuff in there. (Especially the camera. lol.) But I completely agree with what you said at the time-- if Konno Oyuki wanted to, she could have ended the series right there. The little piece at the end has that feeling.

                        > And I think that "Hello Goodbye," the last novel of the series deserves an OVA.
                        >
                        > Because, really, it does. And not for the reasons you think. :-)

                        Haven't read it yet. Still reading Margaret/Ribon.

                        But I'd argue that Bara no Kanmui also deserves an OVA, for a spoilery reason, and also because it would set up one amusing part of Kira Kira Mawaru.

                        Of course, I still want to see the other two dates from the treasure hunt. One because it was funny as hell, and the other because, well, can't really say it without spoiling it.

                        Go buy some Marimite DVDs and get them thinking about making more OVAs, dangit!

                        Oh, and about Touko-- I was just happy to see some of the scenes from the books animated, to be honest. I really enjoyed that.

                        Yeah, the storyline was inordinately dragged out in the books, and it affected the way it was told on TV. Can't be helped. But when it was finally all unraveled, it did turn out to be a nice story that hit the main themes of the series. We also get to see Yumi really start to become the mature Rosa Chinensis she never thought she'd be able to be a year ago (in story time).

                        I guess I'm taking the Japanese approach to the books. I'm looking at it through the filter of Yumi. lol.
                      • Erica Friedman
                        ... Yeah no kidding! lol ... That was what I was thinking of too. The camera. So swoony the two of them, the whole book. ... Yeah. ... Margaret ni Ribon
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 29 2:21 PM
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                          > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: sarcastic_weasel@...
                          > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:07:38 +0000
                          > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: So, now that you've seen Touko....what do you think?
                          >
                          >
                          > > I would like to see Shimako's backstory told, because it was a tremendous eye opener, had fabulous OMG! moments, and explains *everything.*
                          >
                          > Yes. Yes, it does. That's something I want to see, too. That was a bit of a surprise.
                           
                          Yeah no kidding! lol

                          >
                          > > I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.
                          >
                          > Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some light little trip to an amusement park... boy was *I* wrong. Some great stuff in there. (Especially the camera. lol.)
                           
                          That was what I was thinking of too. The camera. So swoony the two of them, the whole book.
                           
                          > But I completely agree with what you said at the time-- if Konno Oyuki wanted to, she could have ended the series right there. The little piece at the end has that feeling.
                           
                          Yeah.

                          >
                          > > And I think that "Hello Goodbye," the last novel of the series deserves an OVA.
                          > >
                          > > Because, really, it does. And not for the reasons you think. :-)
                          >
                          > Haven't read it yet. Still reading Margaret/Ribon.
                           
                           
                          "Margaret ni Ribon" really is an excellent book. Not just for the Shimako stuff, but "Rivals" is also super excellent. It's the first time we've ever gotten to see Eriko at her completely unflaky, totally competent person that obviously everyone else knew she was.

                          >
                          > But I'd argue that Bara no Kanmui also deserves an OVA, for a spoilery reason, and also because it would set up one amusing part of Kira Kira Mawaru.
                           
                          True. If they did a fifth, I'd add that.

                          >
                          > Of course, I still want to see the other two dates from the treasure hunt. One because it was funny as hell, and the other because, well, can't really say it without spoiling it.
                           
                          Yes, and yes! lol

                          > Oh, and about Touko-- I was just happy to see some of the scenes from the books animated, to be honest. I really enjoyed that.
                           
                          The best, best, best scene IMHO, is when Noriko goes running after her in the map room. Best scene. I needed a cigarette after that. That was the scene I'd been waiting all season to see.


                          > I guess I'm taking the Japanese approach to the books. I'm looking at it through the filter of Yumi. lol.

                          Me too. I think translating them helped, because you end up spending *so* much time in their heads, (at least I do, on account of sucking at translation) and because you are parsing every word and every scene in such detail. And then you're discussing it with the rest of the TL group (in the case of Sukoshi, Rei and I) so it's like you really know them intimately and what they feel.
                           
                          So, sure, Touko was a prat in "Rainy Blue." By the end of "Anata o Sagashi ni," she's Yumi's beloved friend. (And how about those moments where we get to see the Touko we have never before seen, at the hospital. That was amazing. You can see how people love her, how well she relates to them, how caring she is and how really amazing a doctor she'd make.)
                           
                          Sniff.
                           
                          Cheers,
                           
                          Erica
                           
                          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                          http://www.yuricon.org


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                        • Katherine
                          I just saw the ending, and it was wonderful. The final scene made it seem like the series has come full circle, with Yumi finally choosing her own petite
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 29 5:26 PM
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                            I just saw the ending, and it was wonderful. The final scene made it seem like the series has come full circle, with Yumi finally choosing her own petite soeur, although luckily there's still more to (hopefully!! XD) be animated. I really, really like Touko now. I wanted to smack her upside the head during season 2, but her development from then through the end of the fourth season has been remarkable and wonderfully unpredictable. :)


                            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Rinu CZ <rinucz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > The fourth season is over and "Touko's arc" along with it. Before more
                            > knowledgeable say something, at least for now :). So what am I
                            > thinking about Touko now? I admit it was a nice turn of events which
                            > provides us to see more depth of one character and that's something
                            > what I like about Konno Oyuki's writing. On the other hand, she still
                            > remains only one Marimite's character which I wouldn't miss in my
                            > life. I mind you I have never said I hate her, I very rarely use such
                            > a strong word and certainly not for a character from anime :).
                            >
                            > Watching 11 episodes filled with investigation of one's feeling for
                            > sake of 12th episode which wants to deliver me the "Ah, so that's it"
                            > feel, it's like watching a rabukome full of "I want to beat crap out
                            > of you" moments with final episode of "But I like you, you know". For
                            > someone it's probably interesting, for me not and I find it to be an
                            > unneeded filler. If it was resolved sooner, I'd be probably more fond
                            > of her.
                            >
                            > Still, the weakest point of this season is definitely a resolving of
                            > Kanako's situation. Absurdly, in comparison with the huge amount of
                            > time spared on Touko's problems, I still think about this as
                            > incredibly sloppy handling for Konno's writing style.
                            >
                            > Anyway, I will most likely keep to have a soft spot for this series,
                            > but I doubt I'll re-watch a larger part of 4th season for different
                            > reason than czechize it :). In the case of novels I can't make any
                            > statement in this matter and I will be glad to discover a beauty of
                            > original later.
                            >
                            > With kind regards,
                            >
                            > Rinu
                            >
                            > PS. Yoshino's line "Aw, if I go, it'd complicate things again, right?"
                            > was amusing. Thanks the heavens she realized it before telling her,
                            > lol.
                            >
                            > 2009/2/27 atheniag anilesbocon01@...:
                            > > The 4th season of Maria-sama ga Miteru is just past halfway. Some of
                            > > you were carrying around Touko hate from "Rainy Blue" (which is like
                            > > ages ago now.)
                            > >
                            > > You've seen her at a little bit more vulnerable and seem Yumi taking
                            > > control of the relationship subtlely. You've also seen a low point in
                            > > their relationship.
                            > >
                            > > So...now that you've seen more of her, what do you think of her?
                            > >
                            > > I'm asking, because of course, I'm pretty sure where this season is
                            > > going to end and I can mostly guarantee that all but the most
                            > > dedicated Touko-hater will not be able to keep that up. :-)
                            > >
                            > > Cheers,
                            > >
                            > > Erica
                            >
                          • sarcastic_weasel
                            Mild spoilery stuff... I m inserting some space here so yahoo doesn t ruin anything by accident. Here s some more random spoiler space text. Here s some more,
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 29 6:26 PM
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                              Mild spoilery stuff...
                              I'm inserting some space here so yahoo doesn't ruin anything by accident. Here's some more random spoiler space text. Here's some more, just in case. It's free.
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              That should be enough.
                              .
                              .
                              > > > I would like to see "Kira Kira Mawaru" as an OVA - of about 6 hours duration. A miniseries might do it justice. :-) It was a great book. One of the best.
                              > >
                              > > Yeah, when I picked it up, I thought it was just going to be some light little trip to an amusement park... boy was *I* wrong. Some great stuff in there. (Especially the camera. lol.)
                              >
                              > That was what I was thinking of too. The camera. So swoony the two of them, the whole book.
                              >

                              That, and a we get a great insight into the way Tsu sees herself. That was way cool. It reminded me kind of how we can be tempted to think, "Wow, that person is really cool and has their act together," but in reality, that person is struggling just as much with life as we are.

                              > "Margaret ni Ribon" really is an excellent book. Not just for the Shimako stuff, but "Rivals" is also super excellent. It's the first time we've ever gotten to see Eriko at her completely unflaky, totally competent person that obviously everyone else knew she was.
                              >

                              Reading "Rivals" right now. (Did I read that right? She took it out on Yoshino? lol.)

                              >> Oh, and about Touko-- I was just happy to see some of the scenes from the books animated, to be honest. I really enjoyed that.
                              >
                              > The best, best, best scene IMHO, is when Noriko goes running after her in the map room. Best scene. I needed a cigarette after that. That was the scene I'd been waiting all season to see.
                              >

                              Yeah, that was awesome. Of course, the scene right after it, when Shimako asks Noriko if she was cold, then realizes Noriko was crying, was great, too. (Awww.)

                              My favorite scenes were the scene with Sachiko asking Yumi to stand up, and the scene at the curve in the road. I really wanted to see those two. Sort of like skipping the sides and going straight for the main course.

                              The scene that I really wanted to see that got omitted was Sachiko telling Yumi after Touko got the card that Sachiko didn't *give* the card to Touko, Touko *won* the card, and reminded Yumi how she hates to lose. lol.

                              > Me too. I think translating them helped, because you end up spending *so* much time in their heads, (at least I do, on account of sucking at translation) and because you are parsing every word and every scene in such detail. And then you're discussing it with the rest of the TL group (in the case of Sukoshi, Rei and I) so it's like you really know them intimately and what they feel.
                              >

                              Kudos for translating them. My Japanese isn't nearly strong enough for such a task. (Or should I say my sanity?) I can slog through a book in a week or so, but I don't have the stomach for getting the details right. I get too bogged down, and leave marks on the desk from banging my head on it.

                              You were right, by the way. Some characters are a lot easier to read than others. (Yumi.) I had noticed after reading a few books that it was getting a bit easier to read them, until I came across a Youko chapter. 2 days later...

                              But yeah, reading the books really has changed my perspective on the series. (And has done wonders for my Japanese, too.)

                              > So, sure, Touko was a prat in "Rainy Blue." By the end of "Anata o Sagashi ni," she's Yumi's beloved friend. (And how about those moments where we get to see the Touko we have never before seen, at the hospital. That was amazing. You can see how people love her, how well she relates to them, how caring she is and how really amazing a doctor she'd make.)
                              >

                              Yeah, that was a nice touch. Touko really has come a long way.

                              My inner LoserMariMiteFan would love to see a "10 years later" book from Konno Oyuki someday, but I know it's not gonna happen. Everyone gets to graduate except Yumi. lol. Poor Yumi.
                            • atheniag
                              ... I will also add spoiler space.... ... . . . . . . . . ... That s a pretty common theme in anime/manga and, well, life. I just finished a collection of
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 30 1:32 PM
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                                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "sarcastic_weasel" <sarcastic_weasel@...> wrote:

                                I will also add spoiler space....




                                > Mild spoilery stuff...
                                > I'm inserting some space here so yahoo doesn't ruin anything by accident. Here's some more random spoiler space text. Here's some more, just in case. It's free.
                                > .
                                > .
                                > .
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .

                                > That, and a we get a great insight into the way Tsu sees herself. That was way cool. It reminded me kind of how we can be tempted to think, "Wow, that person is really cool and has their act together," but in reality, that person is struggling just as much with life as we are.

                                That's a pretty common theme in anime/manga and, well, life.

                                I just finished a collection of "Zot" by Scott McCloud and almost all of the last chapters are just that - we see the group from the outside, then are shown what each feels about themselves and the other for real.

                                I didn't actually like those issues, but it is undoubtedly a truism.


                                >
                                > Reading "Rivals" right now. (Did I read that right? She took it out on Yoshino? lol.)

                                Yes, she absolutely did.


                                > My favorite scenes were the scene with Sachiko asking Yumi to stand up, and the scene at the curve in the road. I really wanted to see those two. Sort of like skipping the sides and going straight for the main course.

                                Yeah, I was smiling when Sachiko asked her to stand. :)


                                > The scene that I really wanted to see that got omitted was Sachiko telling Yumi after Touko got the card that Sachiko didn't *give* the card to Touko, Touko *won* the card, and reminded Yumi how she hates to lose. lol.

                                Yes!

                                That whole scene in the book was confusing for me to read, but after the fact it all feel into place.


                                >
                                > Kudos for translating them. My Japanese isn't nearly strong enough for such a task. (Or should I say my sanity?) I can slog through a book in a week or so, but I don't have the stomach for getting the details right. I get too bogged down, and leave marks on the desk from banging my head on it.

                                Me too. That's why I stopped for a while.

                                >
                                > You were right, by the way. Some characters are a lot easier to read than others. (Yumi.) I had noticed after reading a few books that it was getting a bit easier to read them, until I came across a Youko chapter. 2 days later...

                                My two worst are:

                                Yoshino (oh my goodness, do her sentences wander hither and yon...)

                                Shouko (she speaks very prettily, but almost exclusively in a passive voice and for some reason it's just really complicated to read)

                                Youko's voice is a very adult, very mature voice. Lots of kanji, but very straightforward sentences.


                                > My inner LoserMariMiteFan would love to see a "10 years later" book from Konno Oyuki someday, but I know it's not gonna happen. Everyone gets to graduate except Yumi. lol. Poor Yumi.

                                I always love epilogues like that. I actually did write a list of what I thought everyone would become or do in their futures for #marimite_spoilers, a while back. :-)


                                Cheers,

                                Erica

                                ALC Publishing - where the girls always gets the girl
                                http://www.anilesbocon.org/shop/alcp.html
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