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Re : Re : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)

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  • miszek
    Well, I don t think I would be able to go there this month, because of exams- but thanks :) I loved berlin city, even more when I saw lesbian couples with
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 15, 2008
      Well, I don't think I would be able to go there this month, because
      of exams- but thanks :)
      I loved berlin city, even more when I saw lesbian couples with
      children walking like a normal family in the zoo :), so I'm always
      happy to go back there. Maybe some other time ;).
      Violence and skin- heads- long story. Luckilly most of people here
      thinks that they are tottally insane. Still, it happens from time to
      time, that someone's got beaten (well, it can be a vietnam emigrant
      or a gay.. they see no difference)
      bye
      miszek


      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Joe Leouf <leouffou@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yeah, Russia, right... I don't think being a homosexual is
      something you would want people to know. It's pretty much a taboo,
      right ? Contempt, discrimination, violence on yourself and on your
      family, the sudden loss of your job once your boss knows you are a
      homosexual, all these are to be expected, unfortunately. It's
      probably the same in China, where being gay or lesbian is
      > something like having a secret identity. Legalized homosexual
      > relationships in Russia, some eastern European orthodox countries,
      as
      > you said, and in China will probably not become a serious political
      > subject soon (and even less a reality). There are still lots to be
      done, and probably even more in politics than in the public
      opinion... Even in countries where homosexuality is "officially
      recognised" (with a law that forbids any kind of discrimination and
      such), it's sometimes still pretty hard just to live in peace...
      >
      > As you also pointed out Miszek, the difference between cities and
      small, rural towns in the country has a huge impact on how you live
      when you're gay or lesbian, and on how people look at you. To flee
      the countryside and in more extreme cases, even move abroad is
      sometimes the only thing to do, if don't want to go through hell
      because of who you are... In some cases, you even go through hell
      simply because of the way you look, walk and talk : it actually
      happened several times in France, that a guy got beaten up by a group
      of right-extremist youngsters, because he looked like a "fag", to use
      the homophobic vocabulary of our times... and the tragic irony of the
      whole story was that he was nothing but your
      average "straight",heterosexal who happened to wear a pink shirt ! I
      don't really know if I should laugh or simply be depressed about this
      kind of news... When I hear those on the radio, I guess I greet them
      with a depressed laugh, because, at the end of
      > the day, no matter how optimistic you are, getting beaten up
      (sometimes to death, sometimes not if you're lucky - of course, the
      luckiest of all is when you don't het beaten up at all, but it's
      hardly a matter of personal choice !) is something that happens
      everyday, or that may happen everyday...
      > Sorry if my pessimistic discourse (that doesn't exclude the hope of
      a slow change for the better in the decades to come) got to you and
      made you a bit depressed !
      >
      > Now about a great subject of interest of mine : "living together
      without being married" ! It's a shame I can't remember the figures ,
      but in France there are a lot more couples living together without
      being married (not even "administratively", in front of the mayor
      during a short, civil ceremony) than in Poland. That's because the
      church's influence on social life has rapidly decreased during the
      XXth century, and even faster than that after WWII. But even in the
      fifties, in the small village my mother lived when she was a child
      for instance, it was considered as something truly outrageous and
      shocking for a girl to have a relationship without being married
      (curiously enough, men were never blamed...strange, isn't it?). Being
      pregnant while unmarried was of course far worse... I don't even dare
      to imagine what the women to whom it actually happened went
      through... And women hadn't many rights at that time
      > (did you know that until the mid-fifties women needed the
      permission from either their father or their husband to open a
      banking account ? I'm no feminsit activist, but it does seem
      immensely shocking to me!!!)
      > To make a long story short, I believe it's a positive thing that
      the Polish government realises that many relationships are not
      marriages, and that legal alternatives, both for homo- and
      heterosexuals need to be found. I hope those changes will happen in
      the coming decades, but unfortunately, in France we get pretty bad
      echoes about the current Polish government and its politics, so it
      might be wishful thinking...
      >
      > To change the subject, many of my friends happen to be
      heterosexuals, I am too - but it's not like I choose my friends
      according to their sexual preferences anyway !!! I like yuri, not
      because of a sense of "curiosity", but because yuri adds another,
      sincere perspective to universal stories of love and of life.What
      does gender matter when you hear a beautiful, heartfelt story of
      love ? You don't need to be a homosexual to enjoy Proust or
      Verlaine's poetry, and it's the same with yuri and any other form of
      art or of expression !
      >
      > See you around sometime (I'll be going to Berlin for the next 10
      days starting tomorrow! There is a gay and lesbian festival on
      Saturday 21 June during the "Fete de la musique" of Berlin, at the
      Nollendorfplatz, so if by any chane you happened to be there, let me
      know, I'd love to meet you and your girlfriend in person!)
      >
      > Leouf
      >
      > P.S: I took a quick look at the yuri site you recommanded. It looks
      rather promissing and full of cool stuff, but unfortuntely language
      is a barrier for me (I didn't understand much more
      than "Encyklopedia" and "Galeria" - it's a shame !!!)
      >
      >
      > ----- Message d'origine ----
      > De : miszek <misza5557@...>
      > À : Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      > Envoyé le : Dimanche, 15 Juin 2008, 10h56mn 46s
      > Objet : Re : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual
      living in Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)
      >
      >
      > Well, it's not that bad as in Russia or our east orthodox
      > neighborhouds. Each year there is something like gay pride
      festival,
      > with cultural events, films festivals, shows, days of equality,
      where
      > some polish celebrities (like actors, journalists) who came out
      speak
      > up for gay community. there are magazines, books, clubs, even tv
      show
      > for gay and lesbians. Even characters that are gay in popular soap
      > operas.
      > Of course, I wite of big city perspective, that I live in, it isn't
      > so good in smaller towns or at the country side, where still, what
      > priest says is like "the only true", so many of gays recently
      > emigrated to Geat Britain (especially if they lived in a small
      town).
      > Also legalization of relationships has been discussed. Not only
      > because of homosexuals, but also because of the fact that about 20%
      > of relationships are not marriages, so those people need some
      > alternative.
      > Politics is a different subject. Personally I think politicians in
      > Poland have no idea what they talk about, they are very loud and
      > agressive. Of both- left and right side. Pollitics here is on very
      > low level.
      > Most of my friends are heterosexual (mainly because I don't feel
      good
      > being in lesbian club scene), but also we have very strong yuri
      > fandom. I suggest to see www.yuri.pl, in my opinion it's a very
      good
      > site :)
      > miszek
      >
      > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups .com, Joe Leouf <leouffou@ .> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thank you a lot, Miszek, for your testimony, which brought me new
      > perspectives on the question !
      > > Actually, it was a good surprise for me to hear that people are
      > actually more tolerant and open-minded than I had expected.
      > >
      > > Also, what I found quite revealing in your description is that
      the
      > more homophobic people are precisely
      > > those who don't know any gays and lesbians : my personal
      > interpretation of that would be : prejudices + fear of the unknown
      > (as homosexuality predominantly
      > > remains something mysterious and unclear to heterosexuals in my
      > opinion, hence all the stereotypes, like "all gays carry AIDS, and
      > you can't get AIDS if you're 'straight' " - OK, I exaggerate, but
      > only a tiny bit, as I've heard people saying things like this in
      real
      > life...
      > >
      > > Especially in Poland, the role of the church isn't to be
      neglected,
      > as it implements long-lasting values in people's minds which are
      > often carried from one generation to the next (I think I heared
      about
      > a Polish politician who said something really shocking about
      > homosexuals recently, but I can't remember who and what
      exactly...).
      > > But then again, the example of your mother proves that you can be
      > both deeply religious and tolerant !
      > >
      > > Mentalities are slowly changing, but they are changing for the
      > better, or so I hope (and if I am am wrong, please let me continue
      my
      > optimistic dream!!!)
      > >
      > > Of course we're still quite far from the legalization of
      homesexual
      > relationships in Poland and in lots of other countries all over
      the
      > world... If I may brag a bit about how great my country is (which I
      > don't do everyday), in France, we have the PACS, standing for Pacte
      > Civil de Solidarité, which isn't specifically designed for
      > homosexuals, but for "2 people living together", not necessarily as
      a
      > couple (which is why 2 siblings may decide to "get pacsed" , "se
      > pacser" in French). Even though many people still consider the
      PACS
      > a "dubious thing only weirdoes and the mentally ill do", it helped
      > people change their view on homosexual relationships. As long as
      > there is an official, legal status, people feel that
      it's "normal" ;
      > that's why I believe the PACS was a step in the right
      > direction. "Homosexual marriage" became quite an issue about one
      and
      > a half years ago in France too, but the debate was a bit off the
      > actual subject in my opinion, and didn't
      > > lead to many new developments. ..
      > >
      > > Well, there'd still be a lot to say, but since I need to get
      going
      > I'll leave it at that for today. Thanks again for your great reply,
      > which adds a human and personal dimension to a debate that remains
      > far too often impersonnal to my taste, in the "they are different
      > from us" form. ("they"? "us"? what does it mean ? Aren't we all
      just
      > people?)
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > >
      > > Leouf
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Message d'origine ----
      > > De : miszek <misza5557@ ..>
      > > À : Yuricon@yahoogroups .com
      > > Envoyé le : Samedi, 14 Juin 2008, 14h21mn 57s
      > > Objet : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living
      in
      > Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)
      > >
      > >
      > > So how it is..
      > > I'm a lesbian. living in Poland with my girlfriend. From my
      > > expierience I can tell that there are two sides of polish
      attitude
      > to
      > > homosexuality. Generally, which you described, it's official face
      > of
      > > the problem. When you say "those gays/ lesbians", some virtual
      > group
      > > of people, most of Poles would say that they have nothing
      against,
      > > only if they don't have to see kissing couples etc or that it's
      > > unnatural, they feel symphaty to "sick" people. But in reality
      it's
      > > like if they know personally someone who's gay, they change their
      > > attitude.
      > > I work in a small company, where everybody is very close to each
      > > other. My boss in the beginning had some homophobic reactions,
      he'
      > s
      > > been telling stupid jokes, and so on. But later he got married
      and
      > he
      > > invited me to his wedding. so I asked him if I can come with my
      > > girlfriend and he had nothing against seeing us as a couple. in
      > fact
      > > he is supporting me a lot, he asks if there are any chances to
      > > legalize our relationship (and there is nothing like that,
      because
      > of
      > > big role of catholic church in polish politics).
      > > My mother is very religious, so I was quite afraid of telling her
      > > that I'm in relationship with a woman, but in fact she reacted
      with
      > > great empathy, and she is in very good relations with my "wife" :)
      > > In my opinion most of the homophobic reactions are in politics,
      in
      > > church, so everybody can see it, but "normal" people can really
      > > surprise you with they positive reactions :)
      > > miszek
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > _______
      > > Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente
      > http://mail. yahoo.fr
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      _______
      > Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente
      http://mail.yahoo.fr
      >
    • Joe Leouf
      Thanks a lot for your view on the question, Grisznak! I don t have much time either to discuss what you said (which would be a pretty interesting to do,
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 15, 2008
        Thanks a lot for your view on the question, Grisznak! I don't have much time either to discuss what you said (which would be a pretty interesting to do, though) but to comment shortly on your last remark "I hope that Erica will
        not ban me because of the writing about politic etc in the Marimite thread.", I must disagree with you : Politics do play  an important in yuri, whether we like it or not. Drawing a yuri manga, choosing to publish it, those are political statements ! Can we even discuss yuri without talking about lesbian love and what it is like to be a lesbian today, living in this world ? Honestly, I don't think that we should leave out these aspects, which are intrinsequely linked with Yuri, because that would mean a form of closure, which is why, Erica, I humbly and sincerely ask you not to ban Grisznak (nor myself!). Also, it's important to distinguish bteween social and sociological issues (such as the ones we're discussing : "what is it like, being a homosexual living in Poland ?") and a purely political speech, that tries to convey any form of propaganda (like "communism is great!" or "the current Polish president sucks!")...right ?

        Open-mindedness and tolerance are what make people (and Yahoo conversation groups) great.
        I've only been part of Yuricon for a mere 4 days, but I must say, from the very start I liked the "liberal" (in a positive sense) and  open minded atmosphere here very much(with the principle of self-moderation and so on) !

        A great group such as Yuricon shouldn't be afraid of talking sincerely about delicate , sensitive and highly controversial issues, or so I think.

        Cheers.

        Leouf

        om>
        À : Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        Envoyé le : Dimanche, 15 Juin 2008, 12h54mn 16s
        Objet : Re: Re : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)

        Let's think...
        I guess it's not a problem. I'm living in a rather small city (120 000
        people) and I have few firends who are homosexuals. I guess the
        problem of homosexuals in Poland is rather complex. Gay activists are
        very agressive and loud, many of them are far left wing politics, so
        many people look at the homosexual from such point of view, thinking
        that all homosexual people are antychristians and left oriented.
        Politics of far right are using it too, only to totally opposite
        things.
        But, in the normal live there aren't such problems. Every years
        there's gay parade in the capital city and it's rather calm. During
        the previous years left and right fanatics were fighting there, but
        now even politics are not interested in this parade. It's become
        normal part of the cycle of such events in Warsaw. There are movies
        about homosexuals, books, etc. It's normal, like everywhere.
        What is the most improtant thing, that might be hard to understood for
        western people - Poland is a catholic country where church was main
        force that fought with communism.. Now, many neo communist leaders are
        using "tolerance" andsuch slogans to increase their popularity. So,
        people are thinking that most gays are supporting communists (and some
        gay activists are, to say the truth).
        To sum up everything - in my opinon there's no big difference between
        Poland and other Europan countries when it comes to the tolerance for
        such things. The only diffenrece is that that no one likes the
        extereme - no mater if it's left or right. Extereme parties are now
        out of parliment and current goverment was made by liberal party that
        won last election with almost 46% majority.
        Sorry, I'm busy now co I can't write anymore. I hope that Erica will
        not ban me because of the writing about politic etc in the Marimite
        thread. If anyone want's to discuss more about such things, please
        write me at grisznakiw@gmail. com
        cheers
        Grisznak

        2008/6/15 miszek <misza5557@vp. pl>:

        > Well, it's not that bad as in Russia or our east orthodox
        > neighborhouds. Each year there is something like gay pride festival,
        > with cultural events, films festivals, shows, days of equality, where
        > some polish celebrities (like actors, journalists) who came out speak
        > up for gay community.. there are magazines, books, clubs, even tv show
        > for gay and lesbians. Even characters that are gay in popular soap
        > operas.
        > Of course, I wite of big city perspective, that I live in, it isn't
        > so good in smaller towns or at the country side, where still, what
        > priest says is like "the only true", so many of gays recently
        > emigrated to Geat Britain (especially if they lived in a small town).
        > Also legalization of relationships has been discussed. Not only
        > because of homosexuals, but also because of the fact that about 20%
        > of relationships are not marriages, so those people need some
        > alternative.
        > Politics is a different subject. Personally I think politicians in
        > Poland have no idea what they talk about, they are very loud and
        > agressive. Of both- left and right side. Pollitics here is on very
        > low level.
        > Most of my friends are heterosexual (mainly because I don't feel good
        > being in lesbian club scene), but also we have very strong yuri
        > fandom. I suggest to see www.yuri.pl, in my opinion it's a very good
        > site :)
        >
        > miszek
        >
        > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups .com, Joe Leouf <leouffou@.. .> wrote:
        >>
        >> Thank you a lot, Miszek, for your testimony, which brought me new
        > perspectives on the question !
        >> Actually, it was a good surprise for me to hear that people are
        > actually more tolerant and open-minded than I had expected.
        >>
        >> Also, what I found quite revealing in your description is that the
        > more homophobic people are precisely
        >> those who don't know any gays and lesbians : my personal
        > interpretation of that would be : prejudices + fear of the unknown
        > (as homosexuality predominantly
        >> remains something mysterious and unclear to heterosexuals in my
        > opinion, hence all the stereotypes, like "all gays carry AIDS, and
        > you can't get AIDS if you're 'straight' " - OK, I exaggerate, but
        > only a tiny bit, as I've heard people saying things like this in real
        > life...
        >>
        >> Especially in Poland, the role of the church isn't to be neglected,
        > as it implements long-lasting values in people's minds which are
        > often carried from one generation to the next (I think I heared about
        > a Polish politician who said something really shocking about
        > homosexuals recently, but I can't remember who and what exactly...).
        >> But then again, the example of your mother proves that you can be
        > both deeply religious and tolerant !
        >>
        >> Mentalities are slowly changing, but they are changing for the
        > better, or so I hope (and if I am am wrong, please let me continue my
        > optimistic dream!!!)
        >>
        >> Of course we're still quite far from the legalization of homesexual
        > relationships in Poland and in lots of other countries all over the
        > world... If I may brag a bit about how great my country is (which I
        > don't do everyday), in France, we have the PACS, standing for Pacte
        > Civil de Solidarité, which isn't specifically designed for
        > homosexuals, but for "2 people living together", not necessarily as a
        > couple (which is why 2 siblings may decide to "get pacsed" , "se
        > pacser" in French). Even though many people still consider the PACS
        > a "dubious thing only weirdoes and the mentally ill do", it helped
        > people change their view on homosexual relationships. As long as
        > there is an official, legal status, people feel that it's "normal" ;
        > that's why I believe the PACS was a step in the right
        > direction. "Homosexual marriage" became quite an issue about one and
        > a half years ago in France too, but the debate was a bit off the
        > actual subject in my opinion, and didn't
        >> lead to many new developments. ..
        >>
        >> Well, there'd still be a lot to say, but since I need to get going
        > I'll leave it at that for today. Thanks again for your great reply,
        > which adds a human and personal dimension to a debate that remains
        > far too often impersonnal to my taste, in the "they are different
        > from us" form. ("they"? "us"? what does it mean ? Aren't we all just
        > people?)
        >>
        >> Cheers
        >>
        >> Leouf
        >>
        >>
        >> ----- Message d'origine ----
        >> De : miszek <misza5557@. ..>
        >> À : Yuricon@yahoogroups .com
        >> Envoyé le : Samedi, 14 Juin 2008, 14h21mn 57s
        >> Objet : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in
        > Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)
        >>
        >>
        >> So how it is..
        >> I'm a lesbian. living in Poland with my girlfriend. From my
        >> expierience I can tell that there are two sides of polish attitude
        > to
        >> homosexuality. Generally, which you described, it's official face
        > of
        >> the problem. When you say "those gays/ lesbians", some virtual
        > group
        >> of people, most of Poles would say that they have nothing against,
        >> only if they don't have to see kissing couples etc or that it's
        >> unnatural, they feel symphaty to "sick" people. But in reality it's
        >> like if they know personally someone who's gay, they change their
        >> attitude.
        >> I work in a small company, where everybody is very close to each
        >> other. My boss in the beginning had some homophobic reactions, he'
        > s
        >> been telling stupid jokes, and so on. But later he got married and
        > he
        >> invited me to his wedding. so I asked him if I can come with my
        >> girlfriend and he had nothing against seeing us as a couple. in
        > fact
        >> he is supporting me a lot, he asks if there are any chances to
        >> legalize our relationship (and there is nothing like that, because
        > of
        >> big role of catholic church in polish politics).
        >> My mother is very religious, so I was quite afraid of telling her
        >> that I'm in relationship with a woman, but in fact she reacted with
        >> great empathy, and she is in very good relations with my "wife" :)
        >> In my opinion most of the homophobic reactions are in politics, in
        >> church, so everybody can see it, but "normal" people can really
        >> surprise you with they positive reactions :)
        >> miszek
        >>
        >>
        >>
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        > _______
        >> Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente
        > http://mail. yahoo.fr
        >>
        >
        >



        Envoyé avec Yahoo! Mail.
        Une boite mail plus intelligente..
      • Erica Friedman
        ... From: leouffou@yahoo.fr Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:46:57 +0000 Subject: Re : Re : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in Poland ? (re:
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 15, 2008
          > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          From: leouffou@...
          Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:46:57 +0000
          Subject: Re : Re : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)


          > Thanks a lot for your view on the question, Grisznak! I don't have much time either to discuss what you said (which would be a pretty interesting to do, though) but to comment shortly on your last remark "I hope that Erica will not ban me because of the writing about politic etc in the Marimite thread.", I must disagree with you : Politics do play an important in yuri, whether we like it or not.

          Hi there -

          Whether you believe that Yuri and politics are linked isn't this issue. *This* Mailing List is not a forum for political discussion, as Grisnak knows. However, as the conversation continued to be polite, I had no problems with it.

          Now seems a good time to refocus the thread on Yuri, however. :-)

          Cheers,

          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org
          Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
          The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com



          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Grisznak
          Sorry, Joe, but as a jorunalist, I don t like much talking about politics when I musn t. I m not a homosexual and I always found yuri as a piece of art, not a
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 15, 2008
            Sorry, Joe, but as a jorunalist, I don't like much talking about
            politics when I musn't. I'm not a homosexual and I always found yuri
            as a piece of art, not a political thing. Since few years I'm writing
            about yuri for polish manga magazine, fanzines and for websites, doing
            a discussion panels at manga/anime convetions, BUT, during all this
            time, I avoided any political aspects. Why? Simple because the politic
            is the easiest thing to divide people. Same goes to politicains - they
            are using such empty slogans like "tolerance" or "homosexual danger"
            not because they feel l - they're only looking for popularity.
            Are we all liberal? I don't know. I always thought that I'm rather
            conservative person. But, off with that. This is a list to talk about
            yuri. As motto of Lililicious says - "Make love, make peace, make more
            yuri!". And let's stay with that, all right?
            I remeber that few discousions here went dangerously near the flames,
            because some people started to talk about politic (our last chat about
            Sapho and Lesbos island is a good example). There are doznes of forums
            in the web, where people are fighting because of the political
            matters. I always liked this place not because we have same political
            views - but because we're not trying to convince other people to our
            ideas, we're respecting other people as long as they're respecting us.
            cheers
            Grisznak


            2008/6/15 Joe Leouf <leouffou@...>:
            > Thanks a lot for your view on the question, Grisznak! I don't have much time
            > either to discuss what you said (which would be a pretty interesting to do,
            > though) but to comment shortly on your last remark "I hope that Erica will
            > not ban me because of the writing about politic etc in the Marimite
            > thread.", I must disagree with you : Politics do play an important in yuri,
            > whether we like it or not. Drawing a yuri manga, choosing to publish it,
            > those are political statements ! Can we even discuss yuri without talking
            > about lesbian love and what it is like to be a lesbian today, living in this
            > world ? Honestly, I don't think that we should leave out these aspects,
            > which are intrinsequely linked with Yuri, because that would mean a form of
            > closure, which is why, Erica, I humbly and sincerely ask you not to ban
            > Grisznak (nor myself!). Also, it's important to distinguish bteween social
            > and sociological issues (such as the ones we're discussing : "what is it
            > like, being a homosexual living in Poland ?") and a purely political speech,
            > that tries to convey any form of propaganda (like "communism is great!" or
            > "the current Polish president sucks!")...right ?
            >
            > Open-mindedness and tolerance are what make people (and Yahoo conversation
            > groups) great.
            > I've only been part of Yuricon for a mere 4 days, but I must say, from the
            > very start I liked the "liberal" (in a positive sense) and open minded
            > atmosphere here very much(with the principle of self-moderation and so on) !
            >
            > A great group such as Yuricon shouldn't be afraid of talking sincerely about
            > delicate , sensitive and highly controversial issues, or so I think.
            >
            > Cheers.
            >
            > Leouf
            >
            > om>
            > À : Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > Envoyé le : Dimanche, 15 Juin 2008, 12h54mn 16s
            > Objet : Re: Re : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in
            > Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)
            >
            > Let's think...
            > I guess it's not a problem. I'm living in a rather small city (120 000
            > people) and I have few firends who are homosexuals. I guess the
            > problem of homosexuals in Poland is rather complex. Gay activists are
            > very agressive and loud, many of them are far left wing politics, so
            > many people look at the homosexual from such point of view, thinking
            > that all homosexual people are antychristians and left oriented.
            > Politics of far right are using it too, only to totally opposite
            > things.
            > But, in the normal live there aren't such problems. Every years
            > there's gay parade in the capital city and it's rather calm. During
            > the previous years left and right fanatics were fighting there, but
            > now even politics are not interested in this parade. It's become
            > normal part of the cycle of such events in Warsaw. There are movies
            > about homosexuals, books, etc. It's normal, like everywhere.
            > What is the most improtant thing, that might be hard to understood for
            > western people - Poland is a catholic country where church was main
            > force that fought with communism.. Now, many neo communist leaders are
            > using "tolerance" andsuch slogans to increase their popularity. So,
            > people are thinking that most gays are supporting communists (and some
            > gay activists are, to say the truth).
            > To sum up everything - in my opinon there's no big difference between
            > Poland and other Europan countries when it comes to the tolerance for
            > such things. The only diffenrece is that that no one likes the
            > extereme - no mater if it's left or right. Extereme parties are now
            > out of parliment and current goverment was made by liberal party that
            > won last election with almost 46% majority.
            > Sorry, I'm busy now co I can't write anymore. I hope that Erica will
            > not ban me because of the writing about politic etc in the Marimite
            > thread. If anyone want's to discuss more about such things, please
            > write me at grisznakiw@gmail. com
            > cheers
            > Grisznak
            >
            > 2008/6/15 miszek <misza5557@vp. pl>:
            >> Well, it's not that bad as in Russia or our east orthodox
            >> neighborhouds. Each year there is something like gay pride festival,
            >> with cultural events, films festivals, shows, days of equality, where
            >> some polish celebrities (like actors, journalists) who came out speak
            >> up for gay community.. there are magazines, books, clubs, even tv show
            >> for gay and lesbians. Even characters that are gay in popular soap
            >> operas.
            >> Of course, I wite of big city perspective, that I live in, it isn't
            >> so good in smaller towns or at the country side, where still, what
            >> priest says is like "the only true", so many of gays recently
            >> emigrated to Geat Britain (especially if they lived in a small town).
            >> Also legalization of relationships has been discussed. Not only
            >> because of homosexuals, but also because of the fact that about 20%
            >> of relationships are not marriages, so those people need some
            >> alternative.
            >> Politics is a different subject. Personally I think politicians in
            >> Poland have no idea what they talk about, they are very loud and
            >> agressive. Of both- left and right side. Pollitics here is on very
            >> low level.
            >> Most of my friends are heterosexual (mainly because I don't feel good
            >> being in lesbian club scene), but also we have very strong yuri
            >> fandom. I suggest to see www.yuri.pl, in my opinion it's a very good
            >> site :)
            >>
            >> miszek
            >>
            >> --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups .com, Joe Leouf <leouffou@.. .> wrote:
            >>>
            >>> Thank you a lot, Miszek, for your testimony, which brought me new
            >> perspectives on the question !
            >>> Actually, it was a good surprise for me to hear that people are
            >> actually more tolerant and open-minded than I had expected.
            >>>
            >>> Also, what I found quite revealing in your description is that the
            >> more homophobic people are precisely
            >>> those who don't know any gays and lesbians : my personal
            >> interpretation of that would be : prejudices + fear of the unknown
            >> (as homosexuality predominantly
            >>> remains something mysterious and unclear to heterosexuals in my
            >> opinion, hence all the stereotypes, like "all gays carry AIDS, and
            >> you can't get AIDS if you're 'straight' " - OK, I exaggerate, but
            >> only a tiny bit, as I've heard people saying things like this in real
            >> life...
            >>>
            >>> Especially in Poland, the role of the church isn't to be neglected,
            >> as it implements long-lasting values in people's minds which are
            >> often carried from one generation to the next (I think I heared about
            >> a Polish politician who said something really shocking about
            >> homosexuals recently, but I can't remember who and what exactly...).
            >>> But then again, the example of your mother proves that you can be
            >> both deeply religious and tolerant !
            >>>
            >>> Mentalities are slowly changing, but they are changing for the
            >> better, or so I hope (and if I am am wrong, please let me continue my
            >> optimistic dream!!!)
            >>>
            >>> Of course we're still quite far from the legalization of homesexual
            >> relationships in Poland and in lots of other countries all over the
            >> world... If I may brag a bit about how great my country is (which I
            >> don't do everyday), in France, we have the PACS, standing for Pacte
            >> Civil de Solidarité, which isn't specifically designed for
            >> homosexuals, but for "2 people living together", not necessarily as a
            >> couple (which is why 2 siblings may decide to "get pacsed" , "se
            >> pacser" in French). Even though many people still consider the PACS
            >> a "dubious thing only weirdoes and the mentally ill do", it helped
            >> people change their view on homosexual relationships. As long as
            >> there is an official, legal status, people feel that it's "normal" ;
            >> that's why I believe the PACS was a step in the right
            >> direction. "Homosexual marriage" became quite an issue about one and
            >> a half years ago in France too, but the debate was a bit off the
            >> actual subject in my opinion, and didn't
            >>> lead to many new developments. ..
            >>>
            >>> Well, there'd still be a lot to say, but since I need to get going
            >> I'll leave it at that for today. Thanks again for your great reply,
            >> which adds a human and personal dimension to a debate that remains
            >> far too often impersonnal to my taste, in the "they are different
            >> from us" form. ("they"? "us"? what does it mean ? Aren't we all just
            >> people?)
            >>>
            >>> Cheers
            >>>
            >>> Leouf
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> ----- Message d'origine ----
            >>> De : miszek <misza5557@. ..>
            >>> À : Yuricon@yahoogroups .com
            >>> Envoyé le : Samedi, 14 Juin 2008, 14h21mn 57s
            >>> Objet : [Yuricon] Re: What is it like, being a homosexual living in
            >> Poland ? (re: Marimite in German : Rosen unter Marias Obhut)
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> So how it is..
            >>> I'm a lesbian. living in Poland with my girlfriend. From my
            >>> expierience I can tell that there are two sides of polish attitude
            >> to
            >>> homosexuality. Generally, which you described, it's official face
            >> of
            >>> the problem. When you say "those gays/ lesbians", some virtual
            >> group
            >>> of people, most of Poles would say that they have nothing against,
            >>> only if they don't have to see kissing couples etc or that it's
            >>> unnatural, they feel symphaty to "sick" people. But in reality it's
            >>> like if they know personally someone who's gay, they change their
            >>> attitude.
            >>> I work in a small company, where everybody is very close to each
            >>> other. My boss in the beginning had some homophobic reactions, he'
            >> s
            >>> been telling stupid jokes, and so on. But later he got married and
            >> he
            >>> invited me to his wedding. so I asked him if I can come with my
            >>> girlfriend and he had nothing against seeing us as a couple. in
            >> fact
            >>> he is supporting me a lot, he asks if there are any chances to
            >>> legalize our relationship (and there is nothing like that, because
            >> of
            >>> big role of catholic church in polish politics).
            >>> My mother is very religious, so I was quite afraid of telling her
            >>> that I'm in relationship with a woman, but in fact she reacted with
            >>> great empathy, and she is in very good relations with my "wife" :)
            >>> In my opinion most of the homophobic reactions are in politics, in
            >>> church, so everybody can see it, but "normal" people can really
            >>> surprise you with they positive reactions :)
            >>> miszek
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            >> _______
            >>> Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente
            >> http://mail. yahoo.fr
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >
            > ________________________________
            > Envoyé avec Yahoo! Mail.
            > Une boite mail plus intelligente..
            >
          • Wyld Childe
            Well since an earlier thread I was heavily in was mentioned (Psappho) I figured I would chime in and say that the fact that lesbian themes are making their way
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 15, 2008
              Well since an earlier thread I was heavily in was mentioned (Psappho) I figured I would chime in and say that the fact that lesbian themes are making their way into pop culture is a wonderful trend in my eyes.

              I can't remember the exact quote, btut I remember seeing a show where Melissa Etheridge thought it was amazing that TATU was able to use lesbianisim as a hook to sell records.

              In that earlier thread I talked about how Psappho's works were burned because of their lesbian themes, so now that fact that lesbian themed works are MASS produced...

              As a side note though I responded to the admin thread because Erica hit it on the head, even if the threads get heavy they have been staying polite, and thats a credit to the list.

              DW

              "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
              lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

              Benjamin Franklin


              --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
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