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Re: [Yuricon] Oh-oh...

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  • Johann Chua
    ... Strangely enough I don t recall Lady Sachiko ever coming up in the Animax-Asia English dub. Same official English title, but maybe more leeway with
    Message 1 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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      On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:
      > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: adam@...
      > > Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:33:44 +0100
      > > Subject: [Yuricon] Oh-oh...
      >
      > >
      > > "Lady Sachiko"? Seriously?
      > >
      > > http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/7361.php
      >
      > 90% of all bad decisions and dumb changes come from the Japanese company at
      > this point. Bad translations, dumb titles, changed names and changed logos -
      > all mandated by the licensor.

      Strangely enough I don't recall "Lady Sachiko" ever coming up in the
      Animax-Asia English dub. Same official English title, but maybe more
      leeway with scripting.
    • Carrie Robertson
      There is always this certainty--often misplaced--that non-Japanese couldn t possibly understand core elements of Japanese culture. Witness the decades of
      Message 2 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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        There is always this certainty--often misplaced--that non-Japanese couldn't possibly understand core elements of Japanese culture.  Witness the decades of withholding Ozu's films from Western distribution.  It is only in recent years that we can see a significant number of this great director's work on DVD.

        This problem is exacerbated  by difficulties in integrating Western resources in corporate decisions.  The classic in my mind is the story of an early powdered cream-substitute.  The company that developed it wanted to emphasize that it was as good as cream, but much less expensive.  So naturally, they called it "Creap."

        Erica Friedman wrote:


        > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups .com
        > From: adam@yggdrasl. demon.co. uk
        > Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:33:44 +0100
        > Subject: [Yuricon] Oh-oh...
        >
        > "Lady Sachiko"? Seriously?
        >
        > http://www.animeond vd.com/reviews2/ disc_reviews/ 7361.php

        Did we honestly expect them to just leave it the way it is? No matter how many times I speak to the anime companies, they are bizarrely reluctant to ackwnowledge that the honorifics do not need to be translated. But, that may well have been at the demand of the Japanese licensor - they REALLY do not believe that we can understand honorifics.

        90% of all bad decisions and dumb changes come from the Japanese company at this point. Bad translations, dumb titles, changed names and changed logos - all mandated by the licensor.

        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated. "
        http://www.yuricon. org
        Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu. blogspot. com

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      • Jeyl
        ... Why don t the American anime distributers just sneak the appropriate translations into the set so they can please the anime audiences it s aimed towards
        Message 3 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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          90% of all bad decisions and dumb changes come from the Japanese company at this point. Bad translations, dumb titles, changed names and changed logos - all mandated by the licensor.

          Why don't the American anime distributers just "sneak" the appropriate translations into the set so they can please the anime audiences it's aimed towards rather then some group of people a whole ocean's distance away? It's not like we're making Maria Sama into another "Warriors of the Wind" here. If they told us that 2 + 2 = 5 when it is 4 in Japanese, what the devil would you do? Remain true to the material (and logic), or let the whole thing become a debacle with those who know the material best? I don't know Japanese and I still love the "san"ness of it all.

          This reminds me of a funny story when I watched a commentary track for a Simpsons episode. They had a scene where the Godzilla roar was used and someone in the commentary asked "How did you get to use that roar? We tried to get it for Monster's Inc. and they wouldn't allow us to use it." and the person in charge just said "Uh, we didn't ask" and the roar is still there. So, if a signature Roar from one of the most iconic monsters of all time can remain in an American series to this day without asking for permission, surely we can translate this series appropriately in a sneaky fashion. Cause god forbid that we as an audience should spend any of our money on their property when it's done right.

          - Ted the Awesome
        • Johann Chua
          ... Because that s a really good way to lose the license? IIRC, Viz s release of the X manga was put on hold because they used anime artwork on one of the
          Message 4 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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            On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Jeyl <theo@...> wrote:
            > Why don't the American anime distributers just "sneak" the appropriate
            > translations into the set so they can please the anime audiences it's aimed
            > towards rather then some group of people a whole ocean's distance away?

            Because that's a really good way to lose the license?

            IIRC, Viz's release of the X manga was put on hold because they used
            anime artwork on one of the covers back in the days of $16 flipped
            graphic novels. Going against the licensor's translation notes is a
            little more serious.

            Doing things without permission is why Four Shoujo Stories went out of print.

            In the case of Godzilla's roar and the Simpsons, Fox being bigger than
            Toho just might have something to do with it.
          • Resop
            How soon before we get an AMV pairing marimite and a Tom Jones song? Craig
            Message 5 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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              How soon before we get an AMV pairing marimite and a Tom Jones song?

              Craig


              --- On Mon, 5/5/08, Adam Jones <adam@...> wrote:

              > From: Adam Jones <adam@...>
              > Subject: [Yuricon] Oh-oh...
              > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 6:33 AM
              > "Lady Sachiko"? Seriously?
              >
              > http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/7361.php
              > --
              > Adam Jones
              > (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
              > .oO("And they let theses people run nuclear
              > reactors." )
              > PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Jeyl
              ... I want to make sense in why they won t hear us out in these regards, but everything I can come up with is just a blank. I want to say they re stubborn,
              Message 6 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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                IIRC, Viz's release of the X manga was put on hold because they used
                anime artwork on one of the covers back in the days of $16 flipped
                graphic novels. Going against the licensor's translation notes is a
                little more serious.

                I want to make sense in why they won't hear us out in these regards, but everything I can come up with is just a blank. I want to say they're stubborn, arrogant and selfish, but other anime studios have been wonderful to American distributers too! I can give you 100 reasons why George Lucas won't give us the unaltered versions of first Star Wars trilogy that is both re-mastered and in Anamorphic Widescreen, but this? I don't know. It's like some of the anime companies don't want to give us their own products in the best way possible. 

                One of the worst example of this was the new Bible Black series. First we had no Japanese Language version. Pathetic. Later we were finally given the original Japanese language of the volume one episodes in along with the Volume 2 episodes (Also with the original Japanese track) but at a heavy price. The animation in the first Episode of Volume 2 was down right terrible and it wasn't even supposed to be like that. When fans caught on and asked if the quality would ever be fixed, the answer was a flat out no. Huh? They even admitted that the animation was not the final, so how come they won't fix what has already been fixed on their end? What a slap in the face.

                Makes me wonder if any of these super japanese licensors who make all these silly demands have ever looked at the job Toei did for Air Master. They did the American releases of their titles all their way and look what happened. Horribly bad subtitles, zero customer satisfaction and some of the worst DVD reviews I've read. Toei will probably say that the series failed because no one was interested in it in the states and that's unfortunate. Why? Because if the series failed, there will probably never be another chance to have it be domestically released ever again.  I hate it when good stories are deliberately left untold for the wrong reasons.

                "In the case of Godzilla's roar and the Simpsons, Fox being bigger than
                Toho just might have something to do with it."

                And Disney wasn't?

                - Ted the Awesome
              • Erica Friedman
                ... From: theo@vanduyn.com Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:01:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Oh-oh... ... Because those people a half a world away are not children -
                Message 7 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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                  > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  From: theo@...
                  Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:01:25 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Oh-oh...


                  > Why don't the American anime distributers just "sneak" the appropriate translations into the set so they can please the anime audiences it's aimed towards rather then some group of people a whole ocean's distance away? It's not like we're making Maria Sama into another "Warriors of the Wind" here. If they told us that 2 + 2 = 5 when it is 4 in Japanese, what the devil would you do? Remain true to the material (and logic), or let the whole thing become a debacle with those who know the material best? I don't know Japanese and I still love the "san"ness of it all.

                  Because those people a half a world away are not children - they pay close attention to all the details of anything that involves their IP, and if a change is made without their consent, it violates the companies contract. Not only can it cause costly and prolonged lawsuits, it damages a company's reputation.

                  No company is going to willfully violate the terms of their contract, much less for something as relatively unimportant as what fans think.

                  > This reminds me of a funny story when I watched a commentary track for a Simpsons episode. They had a scene where the Godzilla roar was used and someone in the commentary asked "How did you get to use that roar? We tried to get it for Monster's Inc. and they wouldn't allow us to use it." and the person in charge just said "Uh, we didn't ask" and the roar is still there. So, if a signature Roar from one of the most iconic monsters of all time can remain in an American series to this day without asking for permission, surely we can translate this series appropriately in a sneaky fashion. Cause god forbid that we as an audience should spend any of our money on their property when it's done right.

                  That's a different issue - the company in question was using a small piece of IP, and took a small risk that they'd be found out - and if they were Fox has a great deal of money and lawyers of their own. I can't state it any more clearly than this - the Japanese animation companies *are* looking closely over the shoulders of the American distributors and they do not have either the money or the legal pull to afford to risk anything as stupid as making unauthorized changes.

                  I don't know why fans think American anime and manga companies have money flowing out of their ears....but they don't.

                  Cheers,

                  Erica

                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                  http://www.yuricon.org
                  Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

                  "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                  The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com



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                • Erica Friedman
                  ... From: Carrie.Robertson@comcast.net Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:08:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Oh-oh... ... You re quite correct - that *is* a major issue.
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 5, 2008
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                    > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    From: Carrie.Robertson@...
                    Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:08:41 -0400
                    Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Oh-oh...


                    > There is always this certainty--often misplaced--that non-Japanese couldn't possibly understand core elements of Japanese culture. Witness the decades of withholding Ozu's films from Western distribution. It is only in recent years that we can see a significant number of this great director's work on DVD.

                    You're quite correct - that *is* a major issue. And one that it's going to take some balls on the part of the Anerican companies to change. Unfortunately, since they rely on their Japanese contacts' good will, it's a risky thing to stand their ground and say that they know better.

                    Another issue is that to Japanese ear, "Mister" "Miss" "Lady" etc, sound very cool and exotic, much the same as we view "-sama." That we would prefer to hear the honorifics as is, really doesn't make sense to them.

                    What befuddles me, personally, is why are the manga companies so successful in fighting this battle, and the anime companies so reluctant to weigh in? Personally, I believe it is because the anime companies are still locked in the old sales model of wide video-store, chain-store distribution, where they expected sales from walk-ins off the street. Those days are long gone - it's up to us to explain, politely, that a priori fans are the market and our good will is worth keeping.

                    Cheers,

                    Erica

                    Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                    http://www.yuricon.org
                    Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

                    "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                    The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com

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