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Re: OT: Lesbos island against the lesbians

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  • crimsonlotus20
    This comes as no surprise to me. Greece is notoriously homophobic. As a matter of fact, you have nationally-reputed historians who argue on Greek television
    Message 1 of 11 , May 4, 2008
      This comes as no surprise to me. Greece is notoriously homophobic. As
      a matter of fact, you have nationally-reputed historians who argue on
      Greek television that the Ancient Greeks were in no way shape inclined
      to pederasty. As a matter of fact, they claim the Ancient Greeks were
      as homophobic as the modern Greeks. This is a typical case of present
      bigotry and sheer bloody-mindedness winning over on historical fact.
      Now what the lesbian community wants to do on Lesbos is another matter
      and must, naturally, occur in full synchronism with Greek law,
      however, I find the attitude of modern Greeks disconcerting. They have
      bent over backwards (no pun intended) to 'prove' that Alexander the
      Great never had sex with men...which, by the way, he did...lots and
      lots and lots of sex with men. Greek men. Macedonian men. Persian men.
      Indian men. And the list goes on.

      Maybe this has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks have
      nothing to do with Ancient Greeks. Whatever happened, the lineage of
      Aristotle, Pericles and Hypatia is dead. Maybe contemporary Greek
      homophobia has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks are
      the descendants of Hellenised Turks and Slavs. Most comprehensive
      historical, archaeological and genetic research has concluded that the
      Ancient Greeks died out in the 7th and 8th centuries AD with the
      Slavic invasions.

      Regards,
      MdG
    • Johann Chua
      On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, crimsonlotus20 ... Genetic factor for homophobia? Isn t the Greek Orthodox Church a more likely suspect?
      Message 2 of 11 , May 4, 2008
        On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, crimsonlotus20
        <crimsonlotus@...> wrote:
        > Maybe this has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks have
        > nothing to do with Ancient Greeks. Whatever happened, the lineage of
        > Aristotle, Pericles and Hypatia is dead. Maybe contemporary Greek
        > homophobia has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks are
        > the descendants of Hellenised Turks and Slavs. Most comprehensive
        > historical, archaeological and genetic research has concluded that the
        > Ancient Greeks died out in the 7th and 8th centuries AD with the
        > Slavic invasions.

        Genetic factor for homophobia?

        Isn't the Greek Orthodox Church a more likely suspect?
      • Grisznak
        Hi Searching for the source of homophobia in genetic things is too easy, and, in my opinion, it s dangerously close to racism. Of course, Crimsonlotus is right
        Message 3 of 11 , May 4, 2008
          Hi
          Searching for the source of homophobia in genetic things is too easy,
          and, in my opinion, it's dangerously close to racism. Of course,
          Crimsonlotus is right when it comes to the genetic origins of the
          people who are currently living in Greece, but still, coming this way
          we can reach many stupid conclusions. Political views have nothing to
          do with genetic. If you think it has, then you have to tell that
          Hitler was right.
          But, I don't think that it has something to do with homophobia. Some
          people might don't like be linked with homosexuals in any way - and I
          can understand them. Is it homophobia? I don't think so.
          regards
          Grisznak

          2008/5/4 Johann Chua <johannconradchua@...>:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, crimsonlotus20
          > <crimsonlotus@...> wrote:
          > > Maybe this has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks have
          > > nothing to do with Ancient Greeks. Whatever happened, the lineage of
          > > Aristotle, Pericles and Hypatia is dead. Maybe contemporary Greek
          > > homophobia has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks are
          > > the descendants of Hellenised Turks and Slavs. Most comprehensive
          > > historical, archaeological and genetic research has concluded that the
          > > Ancient Greeks died out in the 7th and 8th centuries AD with the
          > > Slavic invasions.
          >
          > Genetic factor for homophobia?
          >
          > Isn't the Greek Orthodox Church a more likely suspect?
          >
        • Erica Friedman
          ... I m inclined to agree with you Grisnak. (And that happens rarely enough to be notable. lol) Greece is a very religious country and a very conservative one.
          Message 4 of 11 , May 4, 2008
            > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > From: grisznakiw@...
            > Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:37:01 +0200
            > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: OT: Lesbos island against the lesbians
            >
            > Hi
            > Searching for the source of homophobia in genetic things is too easy,
            > and, in my opinion, it's dangerously close to racism. Of course,
            > Crimsonlotus is right when it comes to the genetic origins of the
            > people who are currently living in Greece, but still, coming this way
            > we can reach many stupid conclusions. Political views have nothing to
            > do with genetic. If you think it has, then you have to tell that
            > Hitler was right.
            > But, I don't think that it has something to do with homophobia. Some
            > people might don't like be linked with homosexuals in any way - and I
            > can understand them. Is it homophobia? I don't think so.

            I'm inclined to agree with you Grisnak. (And that happens rarely enough to be notable. lol)

            Greece is a very religious country and a very conservative one. The people of Lesbos have long beeen unhappy with the word "Lesbian" being used to denote a sexual minority. It's not particularly surprising that they'd try and reclaim it. Much as I would like to see "American" be reclaimed from the image of a tobacco juice spitting redneck with a gun.

            Most importantly, its very easy to fall into the trap of writing hate-filled diatribes against people who we disagree with, and blaming them for hate-filled diatribes.

            The reality of the Ancient *anyones* was that humans are tribal, we cluster in packs of "us" and "them" and no society has accepted change without a long, dragged out fight against it.

            Let's not fall into traps of blame and criticism because we feel blamed and criticized.

            I'll allow this thread to continue, as long as we discuss it like the people we want other people to be. The moment it reverts to name-calling, religious intolerance, and heterophobia, it gets cut off. Understood?

            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org
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          • Maria di Girolamo
            First, I would like to apologise unreservedly if the terms of my response caused offense. It was not my intention to condemn the Greek people or, indeed, to
            Message 5 of 11 , May 4, 2008
              First, I would like to apologise unreservedly if the terms of my response caused offense. It was not my intention to condemn the Greek people or, indeed, to make sweeping generalisations. I have been to Greece and, although I cannot, in all fairness, claim that I am crazy about the place or the contemporary culture, I have to objective: Greek Orthodoxy is a powerful religious tradition which is consistent in adhering to its tenets.

              The purpose of my specifying the origin of modern Greeks and modern Greek culture was to illustrate the extent to which history, national mythologies and preconceptions are regularly instrumentalised for political or propagandistic gain. I wished to underscore the fact that the re-elaboration of Greek history to feed contemporary nationalism and sexual/religious intolerance which, I must hasten to add, does not characterise Greece as a country. By illustrating the spurious historical foundations of this national mythology, I wished to draw attention to the bankruptcy of those who wish to re-write the rich and culturally indispensable history of Greece for their own purposes. Mine was not an assault on Greece, but on the mythologies which feed its nationalists and bigots.

              I sincerely apologise for any confusion caused.
               
                                            My very best regards,
                                                     MdG

              > To: yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              > From: alecto_fury@...
              > Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 09:37:41 -0400
              > Subject: RE: [Yuricon] Re: OT: Lesbos island against the lesbians
              >
              >
              > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: grisznakiw@...
              > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:37:01 +0200
              > > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: OT: Lesbos island against the lesbians
              > >
              > > Hi
              > > Searching for the source of homophobia in genetic things is too easy,
              > > and, in my opinion, it's dangerously close to racism. Of course,
              > > Crimsonlotus is right when it comes to the genetic origins of the
              > > people who are currently living in Greece, but still, coming this way
              > > we can reach many stupid conclusions. Political views have nothing to
              > > do with genetic. If you think it has, then you have to tell that
              > > Hitler was right.
              > > But, I don't think that it has something to do with homophobia. Some
              > > people might don't like be linked with homosexuals in any way - and I
              > > can understand them. Is it homophobia? I don't think so.
              >
              > I'm inclined to agree with you Grisnak. (And that happens rarely enough to be notable. lol)
              >
              > Greece is a very religious country and a very conservative one. The people of Lesbos have long beeen unhappy with the word "Lesbian" being used to denote a sexual minority. It's not particularly surprising that they'd try and reclaim it. Much as I would like to see "American" be reclaimed from the image of a tobacco juice spitting redneck with a gun.
              >
              > Most importantly, its very easy to fall into the trap of writing hate-filled diatribes against people who we disagree with, and blaming them for hate-filled diatribes.
              >
              > The reality of the Ancient *anyones* was that humans are tribal, we cluster in packs of "us" and "them" and no society has accepted change without a long, dragged out fight against it.
              >
              > Let's not fall into traps of blame and criticism because we feel blamed and criticized.
              >
              > I'll allow this thread to continue, as long as we discuss it like the people we want other people to be. The moment it reverts to name-calling, religious intolerance, and heterophobia, it gets cut off. Understood?
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Erica
              >
              > Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
              > http://www.yuricon.org
              > Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com
              >
              > "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
              > The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com
              >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Get Free (PRODUCT) REDâ„¢ Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics.
              > http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008
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            • Ellen Kuhfeld
              My mother was raised Catholic, then became Baptist. She tried to enforce the no-nos of both religions. It seems to me that if you put Turks, Slavs, and Greeks
              Message 6 of 11 , May 4, 2008
                Message
                My mother was raised Catholic, then became Baptist. She tried to enforce the no-nos of both religions. It seems to me that if you put Turks, Slavs, and Greeks into a blender -- you'll have a LOT of no-nos to play with.
                 
                Ellen Rose
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johann Chua
                Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:30 AM
                To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: OT: Lesbos island against the lesbians

                On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, crimsonlotus20
                <crimsonlotus@ hotmail.co. uk> wrote:
                > Maybe this has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks have
                > nothing to do with Ancient Greeks. Whatever happened, the lineage of
                > Aristotle, Pericles and Hypatia is dead. Maybe contemporary Greek
                > homophobia has something to do with the fact that modern Greeks are
                > the descendants of Hellenised Turks and Slavs. Most comprehensive
                > historical, archaeological and genetic research has concluded that the
                > Ancient Greeks died out in the 7th and 8th centuries AD with the
                > Slavic invasions.

                Genetic factor for homophobia?

                Isn't the Greek Orthodox Church a more likely suspect?

              • You need to ask nicely.
                The joys of nationalism, making sure that patriotism doesn t get bogged down by facts. Like a few years ago when Japan received interational protest because a
                Message 7 of 11 , May 4, 2008
                  The joys of nationalism, making sure that patriotism doesn't get
                  bogged down by facts.

                  Like a few years ago when Japan received interational protest
                  because a release of history books in Japan negelected to mention
                  Japan's history during WW2. (I won't go into details because this is
                  a family list, but I'm sure their Nazi allies were impressed with
                  their actions.)

                  Or how here in the States I would guess 75%+ don't know that we too
                  had our concentration camps here in the States where Japaneese
                  Americans were sent to the camps for the crime of being Japaneese
                  Americans.

                  If anything the ability to ignore truths one is not comfortable with
                  is one of the true commonalities shared by all people of the world.

                  On a personal note it's assinine in my opinion. Psappho's legacy
                  should be up there with the Greek greats like Socrates and Plato
                  (who called her the 7th muse), but instead her legacy has been
                  marginalized in order to focus on the fact she liked girls.

                  Dark Wyldchilde
                • crimsonlotus20
                  ... That s actually quite a crucial point. Since most of Sappho s canon is lost, we cannot be entirely certain of her contribution, but contemporaries thought
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 4, 2008
                    > On a personal note it's assinine in my opinion. Psappho's legacy
                    > should be up there with the Greek greats like Socrates and Plato
                    > (who called her the 7th muse), but instead her legacy has been
                    > marginalized in order to focus on the fact she liked girls.
                    >
                    > Dark Wyldchilde
                    >

                    That's actually quite a crucial point. Since most of Sappho's canon is
                    lost, we cannot be entirely certain of her contribution, but
                    contemporaries thought highly of her and she was still extremely
                    influential in Roman times, when, I believe, Horace refers to her as a
                    major inspiration.

                    The fact that she wrote love poems to girls is, in my view, also
                    easily co-opted. Some have speculated that in relatively emancipated
                    city-states like Sparta, a female parallel to male pederasty was
                    possible. More plausibly, given the misogyny of most Classical Greek
                    society (women were much less emancipated than Roman or, notably,
                    Etruscan women), Sappho's attraction to her own biological gender
                    simply did not garner a reaction amongst conservative experts, yet the
                    fact Plato drew attention to her may be significant. Plato, after all,
                    suggested that a state that did not cultivate the political and social
                    functions of its female population was like an athlete who only trains
                    his right arm.

                    Regards,
                    MdG
                  • Wyld Childe
                    Then there is the proof of her being with a man which survived when her poems were put to the torch? Needless to say I would want independent verification
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 5, 2008
                      Then there is the "proof" of her being with a man
                      which survived when her poems were put to the torch?
                      Needless to say I would want independent verification
                      beyond the words of someone who's in court to try to
                      dismantle the legacy of a woman who literally defined
                      female same-sex loving.

                      What dismays me the most is that this is just an entry
                      in a far longer list of artistic and historical
                      treasures destroyed in the name of "morality".

                      I'm going to fight to keep off the soapbox here and
                      rather end on a more lingusitic note.

                      Here in the states there are people who call
                      themselves "African Americans" and have never set foot
                      on the Dark Continent, and while Latin America does
                      have the word "America" in it they are a world away
                      from life here in the States.

                      Much like when Spike Lee sued the Spike tv channel or
                      Donald Trump tried to copyright "You're Fired." some
                      people need to get over themselves.

                      DW

                      --- crimsonlotus20 <crimsonlotus@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > > On a personal note it's assinine in my opinion.
                      > Psappho's legacy
                      > > should be up there with the Greek greats like
                      > Socrates and Plato
                      > > (who called her the 7th muse), but instead her
                      > legacy has been
                      > > marginalized in order to focus on the fact she
                      > liked girls.
                      > >
                      > > Dark Wyldchilde
                      > >
                      >
                      > That's actually quite a crucial point. Since most of
                      > Sappho's canon is
                      > lost, we cannot be entirely certain of her
                      > contribution, but
                      > contemporaries thought highly of her and she was
                      > still extremely
                      > influential in Roman times, when, I believe, Horace
                      > refers to her as a
                      > major inspiration.
                      >
                      > The fact that she wrote love poems to girls is, in
                      > my view, also
                      > easily co-opted. Some have speculated that in
                      > relatively emancipated
                      > city-states like Sparta, a female parallel to male
                      > pederasty was
                      > possible. More plausibly, given the misogyny of most
                      > Classical Greek
                      > society (women were much less emancipated than Roman
                      > or, notably,
                      > Etruscan women), Sappho's attraction to her own
                      > biological gender
                      > simply did not garner a reaction amongst
                      > conservative experts, yet the
                      > fact Plato drew attention to her may be significant.
                      > Plato, after all,
                      > suggested that a state that did not cultivate the
                      > political and social
                      > functions of its female population was like an
                      > athlete who only trains
                      > his right arm.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > MdG
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >



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